Beware of the "Rapture Ready" Forum

[greatlybeloved]

No, There will not be anyone left down behind after Christ sets His Feet on the Mount of Olives. Once He comes in the clouds, Matthew 24:29-30, He sets His feet on the Mount of Olives, and Christ remains on this earth forever. Christ never leaves this earth again!!! In my honest opinion, What you need to do is get your head out of those commentaries. They are strangulating your Bible comprehension abilities. Kindly stated!

Haa haa, thats funny. That is exactly I was about to tell you. For your information, I don't read commentaries, which is why you don't find my arguments in any of the positions (pre, post, mid tribulations). You might see few points here and there. But the commentators usually stick to one of the 'positions'.

I will answer your questions, but in the mean time let me shoot you a couple of questions some of which you've been avoiding. Please take your time and study carefully before coming up with pre-prepared answer.

1. Rapture is a MYSTERY (which was not prophesied) according to the pretribbers, do you agree? If yes, why do you show prophesies from OT and tell me that those prophesies are about the rapture?

2. What is the context of Amos 9? Isn't it about the day of the Lord and the second coming? I ask this because what James refers to in Acts 15 is Amos 9.

3. You said "When someone teaches the Bible, It is very important to teach what the Bible actually says". And you are telling me that the "fullness OF GENTILES" (of Rom 11:25) means "Gentile Elect". What does the Bible say in Romans 11:25? It says fullness OF GENTILES and you replaced it with "after the Gentile Elect is complete". And BASED on that FALSE interpretation, you cooked up a theory. The "fullness of Gentiles" is not an isolated phrase. It has multiple cross references. I will write what "fullness of Gentiles" means in my next post.

God bless!

 

[MightyAngel1]

MightyAngel1--No, There will not be anyone left down behind after Christ sets His Feet on the Mount of Olives. Once He comes in the clouds, Matthew 24:29-30, He sets His feet on the Mount of Olives, and Christ remains on this earth forever. Christ never leaves this earth again!!! In my honest opinion, What you need to do is get your head out of those commentaries. They are strangulating your Bible comprehension abilities. Kindly stated!

GB--Haa haa, thats funny. That is exactly I was about to tell you.

Howdy Greatlybeloved! You were about to tell me that? Well, What took you so long?

GB--For your information, I don't read commentaries, which is why you don't find my arguments in any of the positions (pre, post, mid tribulations). You might see few points here and there. But the commentators usually stick to one of the 'positions'.

First of all, I do not believe you when you say you don't read commentaries. Why? Because of something you have written in your post. Would you like for me to show that to you? Ok.

GB--I ask this because what James refers to in Acts 15 is Amos 9.

You say that you do not read commentaries. Ok, But, In order to know that James reference to Acts 15 is Amos 9 comes from at least a reference Bible written by or at least attributed to a commentator with his notes that is slanted Post Tribulation Rapture.

GB--I will answer your questions, but in the mean time let me shoot you a couple of questions some of which you've been avoiding. Please take your time and study carefully before coming up with pre-prepared answer.

So, We have a mind reader on board? Wonderful. I always study the Bible so that I can be prepared to defend my position on the Pre Tribulation Rapture. Thank you.

GB--1. Rapture is a MYSTERY (which was not prophesied) according to the pretribbers, do you agree?

You mean the Rapture was a Mystery. The Gentile Church was a mystery to the Old Testament prophets, Yes. And, The Rapture of this Gentile Church is no longer a mystery because Jesus Christ revealed this information to Paul. Galatians 1:11-12, Romans 11:25 and Romans 16:25.

GB--If yes, why do you show prophesies from OT and tell me that those prophesies are about the rapture?

What specific Prophecies? The Only points that I have mentioned to you was Hosea 3:4-5 and the Law of Moses, specifically, The Feast of Trumpets. The Feast of Trumpets is not a prophecy but a Feast of the Lord which Christ will fulfill before the Tribulation period begins.

GB--2. What is the context of Amos 9?

The Context of Amos 9:11-15 is a story of God's Chosen People, Israel. A Story if you know how to read it.

GB--Isn't it about the day of the Lord and the second coming?

What you are asking for IS NOT the complete story. The Story of Amos 9:11-15 has a beginning, has a middle, and has a continuation that never ends. Why don't you tell me about the beginning of this story? Everything you see?

GB--I ask this because what James refers to in Acts 15 is Amos 9.

Why don't you explain to me why the reference book or material you are using does not mention Hosea 3:4-5?

GB--3. You said "When someone teaches the Bible, It is very important to teach what the Bible actually says". And you are telling me that the "fullness OF GENTILES" (of Rom 11:25) means "Gentile Elect".

Yes, I am. Because, The calling out of the Gentiles in Acts 15:14 is for the Church Age only which will end when Christ returns to fulfill the Feast of Trumpets before the Tribulation period begins. See Daniel 9:27 and Revelation 6:1.

GB--What does the Bible say in Romans 11:25? It says fullness OF GENTILES and you replaced it with "after the Gentile Elect is complete".

The Expression Fullness of the Gentiles is a Jewish Idiom written in the Greek language that means Gentile Elect. I have a question for you. Why can't you recognize Jewish Idioms in the New Testament?

GB--And BASED on that FALSE interpretation, you cooked up a theory.

You claim false interpretation? Based on what Reference Bible or Commentary? Would you give the name please?

GB--The "fullness of Gentiles" is not an isolated phrase. It has multiple cross references.

Yes, It is an isolated phrase for the Church Age regarding the Context of what Paul is teaching.

For your information, The Work Week also has isolated phrases and multiple cross references as well. And, Each Day in the Work Week becomes full at the end of that specific work day.

Because, The Next New Day is a New full day. You cannot carry Monday over into Tuesday or even carry Monday over into Wednesday. But, This is what The Post Tribulation Rapture Doctrine does. This Doctrine carries the Fullness of the Gentiles into a New Dispensation of Time. Exactly Like Carrying Monday over into Tuesday.

GB--I will write what "fullness of Gentiles" means in my next post.

Hopefully, You will write something from your very own brain cells. But, I won't hold my breath on this one.

 

[greatlybeloved]

First of all, I do not believe you when you say you don't read commentaries. Why? Because of something you have written in your post. Would you like for me to show that to you? Ok.

GB--I ask this because what James refers to in Acts 15 is Amos 9.

You say that you do not read commentaries. Ok, But, In order to know that James reference to Acts 15 is Amos 9 comes from at least a reference Bible written by or at least attributed to a commentator with his notes that is slanted Post Tribulation Rapture.

While I am not against checking references to see where else a phrase is mentioned, I read my Bible on a Bible software without any commentaries. I do that on purpose to make sure I don't put their glasses on while reading, instead read the Scriptures in its context. If you don't believe, I don't care. I'll tell you how I got to Amos 9. I searched for two words "David" and "Tabernacle", and I got 5 passages (including Acts 15 and Amos 9, Isaiah 16). And the Amos 9 exactly fits the description of Acts 15 and thats how I understand that James is referring to Amos 9. You don't need a PHD in theology to figure that out. All you need to do is read your Bible prayerfully be led by the Spirit of God.

Looks like you THINK you know ALL the Scriptures and anything said against YOUR opinion is a blasphemy to you. The problem is, you are NOT considering ANY of the arguments that I'm putting forward, but simply harping upon "law of Moses". I don't exactly know what you mean by "the Law of Moses that Christ fulfills". If you are talking about the LAW, He already fulfilled it during His earthly ministry. If you are talking about the PROPHESY that Christ fulfills, explain your understanding as I asked you to.

Hopefully, You will write something from your very own brain cells. But, I won't hold my breath on this one.

No, I'm not going to write from MY OWN BRAIN CELLS, rather with the Holy Spirit's leading. Looks like that doesn't matter to you. You might be able to intimidate people with this kind of attitude in your rapture-ready boards (with the help of your mods). Good luck here!

 

[MightyAngel1]

The problem is, you are NOT considering ANY of the arguments that I'm putting forward, but simply harping upon "law of Moses".

Howdy Greatlybeloved! I keep harping on the Law of Moses because this is the Law that Christ fulfills to bring End Time Bible Prophecy to pass. A Good Bible Teacher, whether a he or a she, will continue to harp on very important Bible points until somebody at least asks where to look or gets the point.

GB--I don't exactly know what you mean by "the Law of Moses that Christ fulfills".

Thank you for saying that. Now, I can show you where to look. You will find the Law of Moses that Christ fulfills as He stated in Matthew 5:17-18 in Leviticus Chapter 23. What you will find are The 7 Feasts of the Lord.

The Feast of Passover, The Feast of Unleavened Bread, The Feast of First Fruits, The Feast of Pentecost, The Feast of Trumpets, The Feast of the Great Day of Atonement, and the Feast of Tabernacles.

GB--If you are talking about the LAW, He already fulfilled it during His earthly ministry.

Ok, Please show me the Feasts of the Lord that Christ fulfilled during His earthly ministry? You can use the list I have showed you above.

GB--If you are talking about the PROPHESY that Christ fulfills, explain your understanding as I asked you to.

I wasn't talking about Prophesy, I was talking about the Law of Moses. But, Since you bring up this point. I will say this.

There are 2 sets of Prophecies in the Old Testament concerning Christ's First Advent and Second Advent. One 2nd Advent Prophecy that will be fulfilled in the City of Jerusalem, Israel in the Middle East is when the Father gives to Jesus Christ the Throne of His Father David. Luke 1:32-33 and Daniel 7:13-14.

Christ has already fulfilled a portion of the Law of Moses concerning His First Advent. Now, When Christ returns, He will fulfill the rest of the Law of Moses concerning His Second Advent.

Specifically, The Feast of Trumpets and when Christ will fulfill this Feast of the Lord. He fulfills the Feast of Trumpets before the Tribulation period begins. Christ will fulfill the Feast of the Great Day of Atonement after the Tribulation of those days.

That is why I showed you Revelation 5:3 to demonstrate that we are already in Heaven when Revelation 6:1 occurs. And, I also showed you Acts 15:14-17 as well.

 

[HoneyBare]

Wow! You guys have a talent. Making my head spin. lol

 

[greatlybeloved]

Specifically, The Feast of Trumpets and when Christ will fulfill this Feast of the Lord. He fulfills the Feast of Trumpets before the Tribulation period begins. Christ will fulfill the Feast of the Great Day of Atonement after the Tribulation of those days.

When you expound the Scriptures, it is basic requirement that you back up your statements with the Scriptures. Please explain the following with CLEAR Scriptural support:

1. Do you mean to say that the fulfillment of the "Feast of Trumpets" is Rapture? If yes, show me your reasons from the Scriptures and also tell the readers why it can't be second coming?

2. Please tell me why do you think "He fulfills the Feast of Trumpets before the Tribulation period begins"? I would appreciate if you could show some verses supporting it.

That is why I showed you Revelation 5:3 to demonstrate that we are already in Heaven when Revelation 6:1 occurs. And, I also showed you Acts 15:14-17 as well.

Honestly, either I am terrible reader or your are an awful teacher. Assuming I am terrible reader, and also for the other members' sake (if there are any as terrible as I am), let me show what you wrote to "demonstrate that we are already in Heaven when Revelation 6:1 occurs":

http://www.talkjesus.com/evidence-bible-prophecy/26544-beware-rapture-ready-forum-8.html#post140404

1. You emphasized on "No man is worthy" from Revelation 5:3.
2. You said, "Nor in the earth" is a Jewish idiom which means "People on the earth who have been changed in a twinkling of an eye"
3. You said, "Neither under the earth" is another Jewish idiom which means, "people who have been resurrected".
4. And based on the above "idioms" and their interpretations, you concluded that all the people in heaven were from the rapture!

I will let the other members look into it make some sense here. Am I the only one who sees ABSOLUTELY NO SCRIPTURAL BASE WHATSOEVER to the above interpretation? And the gentleman tried to make it sound "scriptural" by quoting Acts 15:16-17, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, and Revelation 4:1 and saying the "idioms" means fulfillment of the above Scriptures.

And you call your self "good teacher"!? The pre-tribbers do much better job than you brother!

 

[MightyAngel1]

When you expound the Scriptures, it is basic requirement that you back up your statements with the Scriptures. Please explain the following with CLEAR Scriptural support:

Howdy Greatlybeloved! I have. I even told you where to look in the Old Testament and read for yourself. You said...

GB--I will answer your questions,...

I am still waiting on your answers. Here are the questions once again...

1) Why can't you recognize Jewish Idioms in the New Testament?

So far, Unanswered.

2) Please show me the Feasts of the Lord that Christ fulfilled during His earthly ministry? Because you said

GB--GB--If you are talking about the LAW, He already fulfilled it during His earthly ministry.

So Far, Unanswered. Regarding Amos 9:11-15,

You said...

GB--Isn't it about the day of the Lord and the second coming?

Then I said--What you are asking for IS NOT the complete story. The Story of Amos 9:11-15 has a beginning, has a middle, and has a continuation that never ends. I then asked you...Why don't you tell me about the beginning of this story? Everything you see?

So far, Unanswered. And, You have more questions for me? You said that you do not see an end to the Church Age. I asked you, You do not see an end to the Church Age? I asked...Do you see an end to a Dispensation of Time? So Far, Unanswered. Now, How about showing me some answers.

 

[greatlybeloved]

MightyAngel1,

I will answer your questions. Please give me some time. It's little tight at work right now, may be a in a couple of days, I;ll get back to you. Sorry for the delay.

Thanks.

 

[greatlybeloved]

MightyAngel,

Here are the answers to your questions:

1) Why can't you recognize Jewish Idioms in the New Testament?

Because I am not a Jew and I read English Bible. That said, I didn't know you need to know Jewish idioms to interpret the Scriptures. I believe we should interpret Scripture with Scriptures. If you start using secular history and idioms to interpret the Bible, anyone can prove anything.

Like you say, "Nor in the earth" is an idiom and it means "People on the earth who have been changed in a twinkling of an eye". How am I ever going to know what you are saying is true? When Paul preached to Bereans, they SEARCHED the Scriptures to see "whether those things were so" (Acts 17:11). Now tell me if I should search something else (instead of the Bible) in order to know "whether those things were so"!

God bless!

 

[Fellowservant]

Hi brothers/sisters? I see this tread is getting really long And you both still disagree here. I would say agree to disagree here, as its just going to turn into a lot of contention for you both.

Brain cells and all that in order to keep the brain cells from burning up we should at least come to an agreement, or move on to other things Its easier on the head this way.:shade: But you can continue if you keep yourselves from personal attacks...

This happens, we have to understand this, once a person sees a rapture view he will teach it, or believe it. But as i said somewhere else, they all claim to have their own proof text, which of coarse ends up contradicting one another.

So study it out for yourself, my advise is to leave it be, the answer will come when it is fulfilled. This is not to say you cant give an honest view point, but maybe we should try and not be to dogmatic about it...

God bless, carry on without the personal stuff....

 

[greatlybeloved]

2) Please show me the Feasts of the Lord that Christ fulfilled during His earthly ministry? Because you said

GB--GB--If you are talking about the LAW, He already fulfilled it during His earthly ministry.

When I say "He already fulfilled", I am talking about the LAW that a Jew has to keep. The Lord Jesus kept entire law to its perfection and fulfilled. Even the feasts were ordained to the Jews, the Lord kept. When He had to be in Jerusalem for a feast, He made sure He was there. In THAT sense He fulfilled the law completely.

But what you're saying is the fulfillment of the TYPES (given in form of feasts). Some are fulfilled and some are not (to which you and I agree). Honestly I did not do much study on the feasts, so I cannot tell what feasts (the types of future events) the Lord fulfilled. This is the reason why I don't have a POSITION on end-times YET.

But when you have a position (pre-trib), you should know the reason why you believe what you believe. It seems one of the reasons is the fulfillments of feasts. So if you have an explanation on the feasts and how they are applicable to the future events (those that were fulfilled and those to be fulfilled), please explain. Don't ask me questions because I did not study.

But like I said in my previous post, if you teach something, it MUST have Scriptural support. For example, If you say, the passover is fulfilled by Christ at His crucification, although it sounds right I cannot take that interpretation UNLESS you show Scripture like 1 Corinthians 5:7. You see where I'm getting at. In the similar way, if you interpret feast of trumpets as rapture or second coming, you NEED TO SHOW a Scripture passage that supports it.

If you say, the feast of trumpets will be fulfilled at the Rapture (because there is a trumpet sound at the rapture), then you need to explain why can't the same argument be used for second coming (for we see trumpets during second coming also).

So I'd request you to kindly for the readers' sake EXPLAIN (also considering other positions' arguments) you position with the Scriptures (instead of telling me to "go read this passage or that passage" or asking me "when does the Lord fulfill this feast", etc.,)

I wait for your answers.

God bless!

 

[greatlybeloved]

Fellowservant,

Thanks for the reminder. I guess we need to cool down. I have nothing against MightyAngel1 personally (I believe the same with him). It is just that when the argument builds up, it (personal attacks) happens some times.

I apologize to MightyAngel1 and to the mods if I crossed the line. I'd appreciate if you can allow this thread to go on for a while because I'm expecting MightyAngel1 to write on feasts which might be very important to understand why the pre-tribbers believe what they believe. If he can convince me with Scriptures, I personally have no objections to accept to pre-trib view.

May the Spirit of God be our teacher.

Thanks!

 

[Fellowservant]

Fellowservant,

Thanks for the reminder. I guess we need to cool down. I have nothing against MightyAngel1 personally (I believe the same with him). It is just that when the argument builds up, it (personal attacks) happens some times.

I apologize to MightyAngel1 and to the mods if I crossed the line. I'd appreciate if you can allow this thread to go on for a while because I'm expecting MightyAngel1 to write on feasts which might be very important to understand why the pre-tribbers believe what they believe. If he can convince me with Scriptures, I personally have no objections to accept to pre-trib view.

May the Spirit of God be our teacher.

Thanks!

No problem brother carry on

God bless

 

[greatlybeloved]

No problem brother carry on

God bless

Thank you brother!

 

[MightyAngel1]

When you expound the Scriptures, it is basic requirement that you back up your statements with the Scriptures.

Howdy Greatlybeloved! Well, I try to do that all of the time. But, If you ever find a point I make with no Scripture behind it or a statement of where to look in the Bible with either Book, Chapter, and verse, You let me know. OK?

GB--Please explain the following with CLEAR Scriptural support:

GB--1. Do you mean to say that the fulfillment of the "Feast of Trumpets" is Rapture? If yes, show me your reasons from the Scriptures and also tell the readers why it can't be second coming?

With pleasure, my dear friend. No, I do not say that the Fulfillment of the Feast of Trumpets is Rapture, Paul declares this in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. And, I stand in agreement with Paul. Paul writes... For the Lord himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

With the voice of an archangel and with the trump of God are 2 Jewish Idioms written by Paul that describes what Christ will do when the Feast of Trumpets is fulfilled by Him before the Tribulation period begins.

So, The question that must be asked is...What is the Feast of Trumpets? Well, The answer is staring you in the face. It is a Feast of Blowing Trumpets. For the Jews, It is a time for reflection and humiliation. And, A time set aside for 2 days. You said...

GB--If yes, show me your reasons from the Scriptures and also tell the readers why it can't be second coming?

Reason #1--Jesus said that He would fulfill this Feast, that is the Feast of Trumpets, before the Tribulation period begins.

Someone may ask...Where did Jesus say this in the Bible?

See Matthew 5:17-18 and the Law of Moses.

Also see Acts 15:14-17 and Revelation 4:1. Jesus Christ even speaks in Revelation 4:1. And, Christ's voice is that of a Trumpet. Scripture Reference is 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

Reason #2--The Feast of Trumpets, Feast #5, and the Feast of the Great Day of Atonement, Feast #6, are separated in the Written Law of Moses by 1 Week.

This 1 Week of Separation is critical in understanding when Christ will fulfill the Feast of Trumpets. According to the written Law of Moses, The Feast of Trumpets is separated by 1 Week from the Feast of the Great Day of Atonement. Therefore, The Feast of Trumpets is fulfilled before the Tribulation period begins.

Children of Day-I----Children of Night---

1 Thess 4:16-17------------------------Matt 24:29-31

-----Feast #5--I--1 Week Separation--I--Feast #6-----

=--------------I---Tribulation period---I----------------

----------------------Daniel 9:27----------------------

GB--2. Please tell me why do you think " He fulfills the Feast of Trumpets before the Tribulation period begins"? I would appreciate if you could show some verses supporting it.

Because, Jesus Christ said He would. Matthew 5:17-18. The Fulfillment of the Feast of Trumpets ends the Church Age. See Romans 11:25. The Tribulation period (age) follows immediately afterward with Elijah bringing back the Law of Moses, Malachi 4:4-6 and Daniel 9:27, with the Tabernacle of David being rebuilt, see Acts 15:16, and the man of sin of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is revealed to the entire world. See Revelation 6:1 who will lead the 7th Kingdom which is the Revised Roman Empire. See Revelation 17:9-11.

 

[MightyAngel1]

Howdy Greatlybeloved! Now, I am going to show you how the 1 Week of separation between the Feast of Trumpets and the Feast of the Great Day of Atonement is calculated in Leviticus 23:24 and Leviticus 23:27.

The Feast of Trumpets is a 2 Day Feast. The Feast of the Great Day of Atonement is a 1 Day Feast. The Period of time between the beginning of the Feast of Trumpets and the ending of the Feast of the Great Day of Atonement is a 10 Day period.

Therefore, Totaling the Feasts Days = 3 Feast Days. Subtract this total from the 10 Day period = 1 Week of separation. In other words, 10 days - 3 days = 1 Week.

Take this 1 Week and over lay it on Daniel 9:27 which is also 1 Week and You will find that the Feast of Trumpets is fulfilled before the Tribulation period begins, see Acts 15:17 Left down behind (Residue of men) and Revelation 4:1.

Christ fulfills the Feast of Trumpets before the Tribulation period so that all Raptured can stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ in Heaven. See Romans 14:10, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, and Revelation 4:2-3. You will also see that the Feast of the Great Day of Atonement is fulfilled after the Tribulation of those days. See Matthew 24:29-31, Zechariah 14:4-5, and Leviticus 16:28-33 in the already rebuilt Tabernacle of David which was rebuilt at the beginning of the Tribulation period. See Acts 15:16.

After Christ sets His Feet on the Mount of Olives, and the gathering of all the Jews at the foot of the Mount of Olives, see Daniel 12:1-2 and Matthew 24:31, You will find the ceremony of Luke 1:32-33 and Daniel 7:13-14 fulfilled. See Leviticus 16:28-33.

There is no rapture here because of who is gathered. Yes, There is a gathering at the foot of the Mount of Olives. And, The Jews who are gathered here are the Seed of Jacob multiplied as the Dust of the earth. See Genesis 28:14, Romans 11:8, Zechariah 13:9 ,Matthew 23:39, and Matthew 24:31. Multiplied as the dust of the earth is yet another Jewish Idiom written in the Hebrew Language.

 

[MightyAngel1]

Howdy Greatlybeloved! With my last 2 posts in mind, The 2nd Advent of Christ looks like this.

---------------------Christ's Second Advent-----------------------

-Feast #5--I--1 Week--I--BOA--I--Feast #6--I--JON--I--1000 years (Feast #7)

Notes: BOA = Battle of Armaggedon, Revelation 19:19-21. JON = Judgment of the Nations, Matthew 25:31-46 and Daniel 12:11-12. Followed by the 1000 year Reign of Jesus Christ in Jerusalem, Israel in the Middle East. Revelation 20:4-6 which is Christ fulfilling the Feast of Tabernacles here on earth. See Leviticus 23:39-43.

 

[MightyAngel1]

If you say, the feast of trumpets will be fulfilled at the Rapture (because there is a trumpet sound at the rapture), then you need to explain why can't the same argument be used for second coming (for we see trumpets during second coming also).

Howdy Greatlybeloved! First of all, Thanks for your answers. I really appreciate that. Now, Let us take a look at Matthew 24:31...

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

First point--Who is sending the Angels? Answer: Christ.

Second point--What are the angels sent with? Answer: A Trumpet.

The Bible says...He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet. So, The Angels have the trumpet here...Not Christ. Why? The Angels are gathering here...Not Christ.

Now, Let us take a look at another verse for proof. Let us check to make sure our interpretation is correct. Let us look at 1 Thessalonians 4:16...

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Now, The Bible says...For the Lord Himself shall descend. Do you see that? Christ is descending to do what? Gather His Church and present it to himself. Ephesians 5:27.

So, Christ descends with the voice of the Archangel. A Jewish Idiom which means with the Voice of Command or Commanding Voice, and with the trump of God meaning Christ actually blows this Trumpet. Do you see the difference between Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16? There are no angels gathering here.

 

[MightyAngel1]

Fellowservant,

Thanks for the reminder. I guess we need to cool down. I have nothing against MightyAngel1 personally (I believe the same with him). It is just that when the argument builds up, it (personal attacks) happens some times.

Howdy Fellowservant and Greatlybeloved! The Rapture Discussion has always been a very "Lively" Debate. So, If I have offended anyone, or even intimidated anyone, such as Greatlybeloved or any of the moderators of this fine message board, I sincerely appologize.

GB--I apologize to MightyAngel1 and to the mods if I crossed the line.

Well, I appreciate what you have said, but, I want you to know that You did not offend me or cross the line with me. Believe me when I say, I have heard much worse and have been called worse things.

GB--I'd appreciate if you can allow this thread to go on for a while because I'm expecting MightyAngel1 to write on feasts which might be very important to understand why the pre-tribbers believe what they believe. If he can convince me with Scriptures, I personally have no objections to accept to pre-trib view.

With all due respect, I really do not believe that I can convince anyone of anything. The Only person who can is the Holy Spirit.

GB--May the Spirit of God be our teacher.

Always, Indeed.

 

[MightyAngel1]

Howdy Greatlybeloved! I wanted to come back to Matthew 24:31 and show you something if I may. Let us take another look at this verse...

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

In order to understand Matthew 24:31, A good understanding of the Seed Covenant of Abraham is essential. Someone might ask...What is the Seed Covenant of Abraham? This Seed Covenant is a Covenant that God gave to Abraham regarding his seed in the Old Testament as well as his future seed in the New Testament.

So, Let us take a look at this Covenant...Abram's seed would be multiplied as the...

-----------------The Seed Covenant of Abraham------------------
-----------------I-----------------------------I-----------------
---------Dust of the Earth------------Stars of the Heaven
----------Genesis 13:16-----------------Genesis 15:5

Now, Looking at the graph above, This is the FULL COVENANT. God then takes this Seed Covenant that He gave to Abraham and divides this Covenant between Isaac and Jacob. How does God do this? Very simple. Watch carefully...

1) Isaac's Seed is Multiplied as the Stars of the Heaven. See Genesis 26:4.
2) Jacob's Seed is Multiplied as the Dust of the earth. See Genesis 28:14.

The Stars of the Heaven and Dust of the earth are once again Jewish Idioms written in the Hebrew language that have very specific meanings.

The Dust of the earth points to Abraham's physical seed or lineage through Isaac and Jacob. The Stars of the Heaven point to Abraham's Faith Seed, Galatians 3:7, Ephesians 5:27 and Acts 15:14, and Isaac's Seed in the New Testament, Romans 9:7, The Promised Seed. The Faith Seed of Abraham, Ephesians 5:27, and Promised Seed of Isaac, Romans 9:7, are all New Testament believers in Jesus Christ.

And, Isaac and Jacob are members of Abraham's seed multiplied as the Dust of the earth. In other words, They are part of Abraham's lineage.

The Jewish Idiom Stars of the Heaven points to a place and time when this seed of Abraham and Isaac are in Heaven. See 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, Revelation 4:1, Revelation 5:3 and Hebrews 12:23. The General Assembly and Church of the First Born. The Promised Seed of Isaac and the Faith Seed of Abraham, respectively.

The Jewish Idiom of Dust of the earth points to a place and time when the Jews inherit their land promise given to Abraham. See Genesis 13:14-17, Matthew 24:31, Zechariah 14:4-5, and Revelation 20:4-6. The Seed of Jacob multiplied as the dust of the earth inherit their land promise after the Tribulation period.

The Idiom Dust of the earth literally means that these Jewish people will not see Heaven by virtue of the Idiom which is Dust of the earth. This is why there is no rapture and or gathering in the air in Matthew 24:31.

But, There is a gathering of the Jewish people, which is the seed of Jacob multiplied as the Dust of the earth, at the foot of the Mount of Olives, Where they will prepare to enter into the Millennial Kingdom with Jesus Christ and inherit their land promise.

They will enter in after Christ fulfills the Feast of the Great Day of Atonement in the Tabernacle of David which was rebuilt by these Jews at the beginning of the Tribulation Period under the watchful eye of Elijah and the other witness of Revelation 11 and the completion of the Judgment of the Nations. Matthew 25:31-46.

Once again, The Jewish Idiom Dust of the earth literally points to there is no rapture or gathering in the air after the Tribulation period. IN CONTRAST, The Jewish Idiom Stars of the Heaven points to a rapture and gathering in the air in the New Testament before Revelation 6:1 occurs. This is yet another reason why the Feast of Trumpets is fulfilled by Christ before the Tribulation period begins. There is no rapture after the Tribulation period.