Beware of the "Rapture Ready" Forum

[MightyAngel1]

No offense, but it would be beneficial for all of us if you could explain your understanding a bit more, instead just asking questions like "when do you think the Church age ends", etc., I don't clearly get where you are driving the discussion into. And I'm having to make lot of assumptions to understand your position.

Howdy GB! None taken. But, No, I am not going to explain my understanding. This has been a problem for centuries in the Christian Church. People explain what they think the Bible says. And, Most of the time, Their understanding is skewed at best. No, I am just going to show you what the Bible says and you take it from there.

GB--
And I honestly don't see any "church" in Romans 11:25.

You don't? Well, You should because of what Acts 15:14 says. God turns to the Gentiles to call out of them a people for His name. What is the name of this called out Gentile group, i.e. Gentile Elect? The Glorious Church of Jesus Christ. Ephesians 5:27 and Acts 15:14. The Called out Gentiles are the Bride of Christ.

 

[MightyAngel1]

Paul was talking about how the believing gentiles (wild olive branches) are grafted into Israel (the olive tree) and some original olive branches are cut off. They were cut-off because blindness in pat has happened to Israel. Paul is telling THIS blindness would remain "until the fulness of the GENTILES [not Church] be come in"

Howdy GB! Once again, The called out Gentiles of Acts 15:14 is the Glorious Church of Jesus Christ. Ephesians 5:27. So, You think that Paul is teaching how the Church is grafted into the Olive Tree? Ok, That is what you think. Let us take a look at what the Bible actually says...

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

When someone teaches the Bible, It is very important to teach what the Bible actually says. Take a look at Romans 11:17. Paul says and if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them. Stop...

What did Paul say? and if some of the Branches be broken off, and the Gentiles being, i.e. a Wild Olive Tree, wert grafted in among the broken off branches. Is that what Paul said? Yep!

The Christian Church is grafted into the broken off branches and with them, Both of us partake of the root and fatness of the Olive Tree.

So, The Question that should be asked is why are the Gentiles, who are the Wild Olive tree, grafted into the broken off branches?

The answer is found in Romans 11:11. To provoke the broken off branches to jealousy.

 

[MightyAngel1]

MightyAngel1--Again, Take another look. Elijah appears back on this earth before the Tabernacle of David is rebuilt. Which occurs when the Bible says, After this I will return in Acts 15:16. Elijah does not return to this earth when the Millennium begins. Elijah returns before the tribulation period begins. He is in Jerusalem prophecying during the first 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th Week. And, Elijah's return occurs after the Church age (emphasis mine).

GB--I did not say Elijah returns when Millennium begins. Elijah's ministry is of-course during tribulation.

Howdy GB! Excellent! You and I are in agreement. Elijah's Ministry is of course during the Tribulation period. Specifically, The First 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th Week. This is very important information.

GB--However where does it say that "Elijah's return occurs after the Church age"??? What proof do you have that Church age ends BEFORE Elijah comes?

Well, When the Lord returns, see Acts 15:16, The Church Age ends. When The Lord returns, Elijah comes back with the Lord and appears on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

Why? Because, according to Scripture, Malachi 4:4-6, Elijah brings back the Law of Moses. The Church Age ends when the Lord returns, Acts 15:16, and Elijah who returns with the Lord and appears on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem brings back The Law of Moses.

So, When the Lord returns in Acts 15:16, All believers in Christ are taken to Heaven. See Acts 15:17. Do you remember the word residue? The Greek Word here is Kataloipas which means Left down behind. When Elijah returns bringing back the Law of Moses, There will be people left down behind to hear him prophecy in Jerusalem on the Temple Mount. We will not hear him because we, The Christian Church, is not here.

 

[greatlybeloved]

Well, When the Lord returns, see Acts 15:16, The Church Age ends. When The Lord returns, Elijah comes back with the Lord and appears on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

Why? Because, according to Scripture, Malachi 4:4-6, Elijah brings back the Law of Moses. The Church Age ends when the Lord returns, Acts 15:16, and Elijah who returns with the Lord and appears on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem brings back The Law of Moses.

You said, "... Elijah who returns WITH the Lord and appears on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem". That is why I was asking you to explain your full position with Scriptural support. Statements like this only will confuse the people. The proof verse you are giving is Malachi 4:4-6 and you're telling us that Elijah comes WITH the Lord where as Malachi 4:4-6 says Elijah will be sent "BEFORE the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD") !?

I am confused!

 

[greatlybeloved]

MightyAngel,

So, When the Lord returns in Acts 15:16, All believers in Christ are taken to Heaven. See Acts 15:17. Do you remember the word residue? The Greek Word here is Kataloipas which means Left down behind. When Elijah returns bringing back the Law of Moses, There will be people left down behind to hear him prophecy in Jerusalem on the Temple Mount. We will not hear him because we, The Christian Church, is not here.

You seem yo have solved all eschatological issues with just Acts 15!? Here are the assumptions you made:

1. Elijah will return WITH the Lord
2. Elijah will bring back the "Law of Moses"
3. The "return" in Acts 15 is rapture (and not second coming). Please read Amos 9 (that is what James is referring to) and connect it with Acts 15, you will see that it is second coming.

God bless!

 

[MightyAngel1]

You said, "... Elijah who returns WITH the Lord and appears on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem". That is why I was asking you to explain your full position with Scriptural support. Statements like this only will confuse the people.

Howdy GB! So, You are confused? You should not be at all. You should be understanding the Word of God.

GB--The proof verse you are giving is Malachi 4:4-6 and you're telling us that Elijah comes WITH the Lord where as Malachi 4:4-6 says Elijah will be sent "BEFORE the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD") !?

I am confused!

Yes, The Bible says that Elijah is sent before the great and dreadful day of the Lord, of course. So, Where is Elijah right now? Elijah is in heaven with the other witness waiting to be sent to Jerusalem to stand on the Temple Mount.

And, I said that Elijah returns with the Lord in Acts 15:16 and he does.

Why is this so confusing to you? Elijah is in Heaven right now. He cannot travel through an area, i.e. space, where there is no oxygen because Elijah is a human being. Travel back to this earth from Heaven requires that He returns with the Lord. You should already know this regarding space. There is no oxygen there.

So, When the Lord returns, Elijah is with Him, and When they arrive in the atmosphere of the earth, Elijah is sent to Jerusalem to stand on the temple mount along with the other witness to prophecy for 3 1/2 years. See Acts 15:16 and Revelation 11:1-4.

They Prophecy while the Tabernacle of David is rebuilt. Once the Tabernacle of David is rebuilt, They will continue to prophecy until they die. This should not be confusing to you. This should be relatively basic Bible knowledge for you now in my honest opinion. Unless of course, You just did not know this information existed in the Bible regarding Elijah returning with the Lord.

 

[MightyAngel1]

Originally Posted by MightyAngel1 View Post So, When the Lord returns in Acts 15:16, All believers in Christ are taken to Heaven. See Acts 15:17. Do you remember the word residue? The Greek Word here is Kataloipas which means Left down behind. When Elijah returns bringing back the Law of Moses, There will be people left down behind to hear him prophecy in Jerusalem on the Temple Mount. We will not hear him because we, The Christian Church, is not here.



You seem yo have solved all eschatological issues with just Acts 15!?

Howdy GB! Well, I told you that Acts 15:14-17 was a very powerful passage of Scripture. Did you doubt me? I think you did.

GBHere are the assumptions you made:

1. Elijah will return WITH the Lord
2. Elijah will bring back the "Law of Moses"
3. The "return" in Acts 15 is rapture (and not second coming). Please read Amos 9 (that is what James is referring to) and connect it with Acts 15, you will see that it is second coming.

God bless!

No my friend, I did not make any assumptions. The Bible is very clear. Elijah brings back the Law of Moses. The Bible says Remember ye the Law of Moses. Malachi 4:4-6 and Daniel 9:27a. As the Tabernacle of David is rebuilt, see Acts 15:16, Elijah and the other witness of Revelation 11 prophecy for 3 1/2 years on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Then, They die.

I am very familiar with Amos 9. And, Based on what you have claimed about assumptions tells me that you do not know the written Law in the Old Testament that Christ fulfills.

The Return of the Lord in Acts 15:16 is the fulfillment of the Law of Moses that Christ is required to fulfill. Matthew 5:17-18.

This return in Acts 15:16 is the fulfillment of the Feast of Trumpets which is fulfilled by Christ before the Tribulation period begins. And, The Feast of Trumpets is only fulfilled before the Tribulation period begins. Christ cannot fulfill this Feast of the Lord any other time.

According to the Law of Moses, The Feast of Trumpets and the Feast of the Great day of Atonement are not fulfilled on the same day. Based on the Written Law of Moses, It is impossible for Christ to fulfill both Feasts of the Lord on the same day.

 

[MightyAngel1]

So, Greatlybeloved, Let us examine Acts 15:14-17 in detail and see what we find. Here is the passage once again.

Acts 15:14-17 14. Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16. After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17. That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Verse 14--God visits the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. The Name of these called out Gentiles, i.e. Gentile Elect, is the Glorious Church of Jesus Christ. Ephesians 5:27. This time is the Dispensation of Grace given to Paul alone, Ephesians 3:2, also known as the Gospel of Un-circumcision, Galatians 2:7, which will come to an end when the Lord returns. Acts 15:16 and Revelation 4:1.

Verse 15--The Old Testament prophets agree, as it is written

Verse 16--The Lord will return after the Gentile Elect is complete. Romans 11:25. The Lord brings back Elijah and the other witness of Revelation 11.

Both are sent to Jerusalem from the air to prophecy for 3 1/2 years while the Tabernacle of David is rebuilt signifying the beginning of the Tribulation period along with the signing of the peace covenant of Daniel 9:27a with the man of sin of 2 Thessalonians 2:3. The Law of Moses is brought back by Elijah. Malachi 4:4-6. Animal Sacrifice and oblations will begin again according to the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses is brought back by Elijah under the Revised Roman Empire which is the 7th Mountain Kingdom in Revelation 17:9-11. This 7th Kingdom will last for 3 1/2 years followed by the 8th Kingdom which begins in Revelation 13 and is the Revived Grecian Empire lead by the antichrist of 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

Verse 17--When the Lord returns in verse 16, The Kataloipas occurs when Christ fulfills the Feast of Trumpets in the Law of Moses. Meaning there are people who will be left down behind because all believers in Christ will have left this earth with Christ to go to Heaven.

Now, Greatlybeloved, This information needs to be very clear. You cannot be confused here. When the Lord returns, The Tabernacle of David is rebuilt when the Tribulation period begins. This Tabernacle of David is not rebuilt after the Tribulation period.

The Bible proves in Hosea 3:4-5, That for many days, The Jewish people will be without a King. These many days began in 30 AD when Christ died on the cross. Daniel 9:26a.

And, They will seek after God and King David when Elijah returns. The Jews can only do this with the rebuilt Tabernacle of David at the beginning of the Tribulation period. Not after the Tribulation period. The Jews who are the Seed of Jacob multiplied as the dust of the earth, Genesis 28:14 and Romans 11:8, will practice the Law of Moses during the Tribulation period. Daniel 9:27a.

 

[MightyAngel1]

While I kind of agree that the olive tree (along with wild branches) is church, the removal of blindness of Israel is NOT linked with the Church, but GENTILES.

So I don't see any end of the Church age.

Howdy GB! So, You do not see an end of the Church Age? Do you see an end to a Dispensation of time? Specifically, An end to the Dispensation of Grace given to Paul? See Ephesians 3:2. The Gospel of Uncircumcision is for a period of time. This Time is from about 42 AD to when Christ returns. See Acts 15:16 and Revelation 4:1.

You see, Greatlybeloved, A Dispensation of time is just that. A Specific time that comes to an end. Forever is never ending. Eternal is forever. A Dispensation of time is for a set period of time. Once this time has come to an end, A New Dispensation of time will begin. Paul's Gospel of Uncircumcision is for a Dispensation of Time until the rapture occurs.

When Paul's Gospel of Uncircumcision is complete, Acts 15:14 and Romans 11:25, The Law of Moses is brought back by Elijah for the Dispensation of time called the Tribulation period when the Gospel of Circumcision will be preached by the 144,000 of Revelation 7. The Tribulation period lasts for 7 years according to Daniel 9:24. After the Dispensation of time of the Tribulation period, Then, We have another Dispensation of time that includes for example the Judgment of the nations, Matthew 25:31-46, and Christ's 1000 year reign here on this earth in Jerusalem. Revelation 20:4-6.

 

[MightyAngel1]

Was church mentioned in the Old Testament?

Howdy Greatlybeloved! To answer your question...Yes. Church was mentioned in the OT in the Book of Acts 7:38.

Acts 7:36-38 36. He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years. 37. This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. 38. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

The Church in the Wilderness is the congregation of Israel, i.e. the children of Israel, who was led by Moses. This very same Church is found in Acts 2 celebrating the Feast of Pentecost. Acts 2:1. The Church in the Wilderness kept the Commandments of God. In Acts 2, Peter and those with him in the upper room received the Holy Spirit and began preaching The Gospel of Circumcision, see Galatians 2:7, with the faith of Jesus added to the Commandments of God. For additional Scripture support, see Revelation 14:12.

 

[MightyAngel1]

I believe the "wrath to come" is THAT wrath, not the tribulation. My belief is not based upon mere speculation like pretribbers. Please see the Baptist's comments when the Pharisees and Sadducees take the baptism, "O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?". According to Matthew 24, the Jews will go through tribulation (pretribbers agree to this). The Pharisees are Jews and they fled from WRATH TO COME. So obviously the "wrath to come" is not the tribulation (because they will go through tribulation). It is the wrath of God on the "terrible day of the LORD". And that day of the Lord isn't tribulation!

So God has not appointed us to the wrath to come (the day of the Lord). Also please read 1 Thessalonians 5:1-5.

Reason# 4 has no base as well.

Howdy Greatlybeloved! I have been reading your reasons with great interest. I will say that you have a great imagination. Regarding the Day of the Lord, I would like to show you something. There are 4 wraths that occur in the Book of Revelation. These wraths are as follows...

1) The Wrath of Arnion

2) The Wrath of Diablos

3) The Wrath of Theos

4) The Wrath of Pantokrator

Now, You said

GB--I believe the "wrath to come" is THAT wrath, not the tribulation. My belief is not based upon mere speculation like pretribbers.

Based on your belief which is not mere speculation, Would you please tell me which wrath that the Christian Church is appointed to?

 

[MightyAngel1]

Hello folks hope your all well...

Prophecy forums, are gonna have fun trying to push pre, mid, or post, or what have you trib Its a mystery to most including myself as to what God will and will not do during the coming great tribulation. To me, we will have to wait and see.

Howdy Fellowservant!

Well, I can understand why some people would think that what God will do is a mystery. But, The Bible teaches that we can know and understand God. See Jeremiah 9:23-24.

So, For a Christian to understand what God will do is to simply study the Law of Moses that Christ fulfills to bring End Time Bible Prophecy to pass. See Matthew 5:17-18. When a Christian does that, They will no longer have to wait and see. They will already know based on the written Law of God what God will do next. In the Law of Moses, There are no surprises. Isn't God good?

Fellowservant--Jesus says he is returning after the tribulation, so im going with that basic fact for now.

Jesus also says, and clearly shows us with the Law of Moses, that He will also return before the Tribulation period begins. I am of this opinion. If Every Christian studied the Law of Moses, There would not be so many different Rapture theories presented to the Christian Church by good hearted Christians. The Post Tribulation Rapture theory for example would be non-existent.

Fellowservant--Will God protect us? yes he can, will he let us be martyred? look at Church history and that is also a possibility.

Yes, God can protect us. And, Yes, There have been many Christians who have suffered violent deaths because of their faith and belief in Jesus Christ. Does that mean that you have to die the same way they did? No.

Jesus Christ comes back before the Tribulation period to take all believers in Him to Heaven so that we can be rescued from the wrath to come.

The situation at hand is simply this...There are many Christians who do not want to be rescued from the wrath to come. And, They have their own personal reasons.

 

[MightyAngel1]

The "day of the Lord": When we search for the "day of the Lord" in the Bible, it seems like a PERIOD rather than a single day. But according to Joel, it STARTS AFTER the sun/moon being darkened! Please read, "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE the great and the terrible day of the LORD come"!!! So this is the sequence: 1. Abomination of desolation 2. The tribulation/great tribulation 3. Sun and moon being darkened (and the fall of stars) 4. The day of the Lord begins

Howdy Greatlybeloved! You have an interesting sequence of events. Unfortunately, You are missing some very critical information. To begin with, Let us take a look at Amos 5:18 which says as follows...

Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

Let us also look at Revelation 6:12 which says as follows...

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Did you notice that the Sun became black as Sackcloth of hair and the moon blood red? That is the very same thing that the Old Testament Prophet Joel says. That would place the entire planet earth in total darkness. This would indicate that The Day of the Lord begins in Revelation Chapter 6. Wouldn't You agree?

 

[greatlybeloved]

Did you notice that the Sun became black as Sackcloth of hair and the moon blood red? That is the very same thing that the Old Testament Prophet Joel says. That would place the entire planet earth in total darkness. This would indicate that The Day of the Lord begins in Revelation Chapter 6. Wouldn't You agree?

Thats exactly what I've been saying! That means there are SIX SEALS (or at-least five) before the day of the Lord (and five before sun/moon getting dark). These seals are PART of tribulation according to the pre-tribbers. So if the day of the Lord starts AFTER SIX seals, and according to 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4, we shall not be overtaken by the day of the LORD. So what is guaranteed is that we will NOT go though beyond SIXTH seal, but there are NO guarantees about us not going through the first six seals.

So you tell me how can you use 1 Thessalonians 5 to prove pre-tribulation rapture? YEs, you can prove pre-trumpets rapture or pre-vials rapture, but pre-tribulation!? You have to show something solid.

God bless!

 

[greatlybeloved]

Howdy Greatlybeloved! I have been reading your reasons with great interest. I will say that you have a great imagination. Regarding the Day of the Lord, I would like to show you something. There are 4 wraths that occur in the Book of Revelation. These wraths are as follows... Now, You said Based on your belief which is not mere speculation, Would you please tell me which wrath that the Christian Church is appointed to?

I don't imagine, please note that I provide Scriptures for ALL of my arguments. When I assume, I did say so. As for which wrath the Christians are appointed to, I cannot tell but the Bible tells which wrath the Christians are NOT appointed to. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 tells us that "God hath not appointed us to wrath". The context is that we won't be overtaken by the DAY OF THE LORD. So if we connect this "wrath" to the day of the LORD as per the context, the "wrath" mentioned in verse.9 is THAT wrath that comes AT THE DAY OF THE LORD. Paul is simply telling the believers that we will escape the day of the Lord because we are NOT appointed to THAT wrath (that comes at the day of the Lord).

We saw in my previous post that the day of the Lord comes AFTER sun/moon getting dark (and that is an event happens at the sixth seal of Rev 6, to which you also agreed). So to see WHOSE WRATH it is, please read Revelation 6:16-17 "... hide us from the face of HIM that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of HIS wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand".

So on the day of the Lord, it is the wrath of God and of His Lamb. That is the wrath that we are NOT appointed to (according to 1 Thess 5).

God bless!

 

[MightyAngel1]

MightyAngel1--Did you notice that the Sun became black as Sackcloth of hair and the moon blood red? That is the very same thing that the Old Testament Prophet Joel says. That would place the entire planet earth in total darkness. This would indicate that The Day of the Lord begins in Revelation Chapter 6. Wouldn't You agree?

GB--Thats exactly what I've been saying!

Howdy Greatlybeloved! Perfect. I see precisely where you are at and what you are saying. So, I am going to ask you to pay very close attention here.

GB--That means there are SIX SEALS (or at-least five) before the day of the Lord (and five before sun/moon getting dark).

There are 5 Seals that occur before the Day of the Lord. This is correct.

GB--These seals are PART of tribulation according to the pre-tribbers.

And, The PreTribbers are correct. I will show you why in a moment.

GB--So if the day of the Lord starts AFTER SIX seals, and according to 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4, we shall not be overtaken by the day of the LORD. So what is guaranteed is that we will NOT go though beyond SIXTH seal, but there are NO guarantees about us not going through the first six seals.

Yes, There is a guarantee that we will not go through the first 6 Seals. That is why I showed you Acts 15:14-17 and Elijah bringing back the Law of Moses.

GB--So you tell me how can you use 1 Thessalonians 5 to prove pre-tribulation rapture?

Simple. The Law of Moses. Once You understand what Christ fulfills, Then, You are going to get very excited.

GB--YEs, you can prove pre-trumpets rapture or pre-vials rapture, but pre-tribulation!? You have to show something solid.

And, I have. I have showed you Acts 15:14-17 with the Kataloipas (people left down behind) taking place in Acts 15:17 and the Law of Moses brought back by Elijah with the Tabernacle of David being rebuilt at the beginning of the Tribulation period. But, If this information that has been provided to you in the Word of God is not solid enough for you, I am not finished yet.

 

[MightyAngel1]

Greatlybeloved, I am going to ask once again, please, to pay very close attention here. In my opinion, You are on the cusp of seeing the PreTribulation Rapture right in Scripture.

So, We are now in Revelation Chapter 6. And, There are 5 Seal Judgments that you think the Church may have to endure before the Rapture takes place. Ok. Watch very carefully here.

I will ask you to open your Bible to Revelation Chapter 5. I want you to read the entire Chapter very carefully because I am going to point out something to you that you may not have seen before. Ok?

Now, I want you to focus on Revelation 5:3 which says...And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

Please look at the language. The Apostle John is in Heaven and this is what He sees. No man is worthy. Did you catch that? NO MAN IS WORTHY in Heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the Book, neither to look thereon.

No man in Heaven, nor in the earth, neither under the earth, is able to open the Book, neither to look thereon.

The Phrases Nor in the earth and neither under the earth are Jewish Idioms written in the Greek Language. These Idioms have a very specific meaning. I am going to share that with you now.

The Jewish Idiom Nor in the earth means People on the earth who have been changed in a twinkling of an eye. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and I Corinthians 15:51-52.

The Jewish Idiom Neither under the earth means people who have been resurrected. 1 Thessalonians 4:16. Remember, The Apostle John is in Heaven and he sees all of these people who are not worthy (Future) to open the Book neither to look thereon. Since These people are not worthy to look or open the Book, This means they are in Heaven at this point in time.

So, with this information in front of you, and looking at Revelation Chapter 5, How did these people get into Heaven? No offense, But, They did not get there by the Space Shuttle. They got into Heaven by the Rapture. See Acts 15:16-17, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, and Revelation 4:1. They got to Heaven by Christ fulfilling the Feast of Trumpets before the Tribulation period begins in Revelation 6:1 when Elijah appears on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem with the other witness of Revelation 11. You wanted solid information? You just got it straight from the Word of God.

 

[MightyAngel1]

As for which wrath the Christians are appointed to, I cannot tell but the Bible tells which wrath the Christians are NOT appointed to.

Howdy Greatlybeloved! That is why I asked you the question I did on the 4 Wraths mentioned in the Book of Revelation. We are simply not appointed to ANY WRATH of any kind.

GB--1 Thessalonians 5:9 tells us that "God hath not appointed us to wrath". The context is that we won't be overtaken by the DAY OF THE LORD.

And, notice please once again, Paul says that We are not appointed to wrath. The Seal Judgments are the Wrath of the Law that occur before the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord.

Paul teaches that There is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus. See Romans 8:1.

Since Christians are not condemned because we believe and accept Jesus Christ, The Seal Judgments are the wrath of the Law for those who do not believe in Jesus Christ. See John 3:18.

GB--So if we connect this "wrath" to the day of the LORD as per the context, the "wrath" mentioned in verse.9 is THAT wrath that comes AT THE DAY OF THE LORD. Paul is simply telling the believers that we will escape the day of the Lord because we are NOT appointed to THAT wrath (that comes at the day of the Lord).

That is why you need to understand what the Seal Judgments are. Once again, The Seal Judgments are the Wrath of the Law. And, Christians are not appointed to wrath. That is Wrath of any kind. Law or God's Wrath because we believe in Jesus Christ. Christians who believe in Jesus Christ are not appointed to the Wrath of the Law, i.e. Seal Judgments, not appointed to the Wrath of Jesus, not appointed to the wrath of satan, not appointed to the wrath of God, and not appointed to the wrath of Almighty God. The Wrath of the Law begins in Revelation 6:1 with the 7 Seals..

 

[greatlybeloved]

And, I have. I have showed you Acts 15:14-17 with the Kataloipas (people left down behind) taking place in Acts 15:17 and the Law of Moses brought back by Elijah with the Tabernacle of David being rebuilt at the beginning of the Tribulation period. But, If this information that has been provided to you in the Word of God is not solid enough for you, I am not finished yet.

Mighty Angel,

You need more study to do before you can come to a conclusion based on a so called meaning of a greek word. Let me ask you, are you a greek scholar!? What are your credentials to give a meaning to a greek word (κατάλοιποι) DIFFERENT to the translation given by the translators of almost ALL the english versions of the Bible?

This is how various Bible versions in English translated the greek word "κατάλοιποι":

King James Bible - "residue of men"
American King James Version - "residue of men"
American Standard Version - "residue of men"
Douay-Rheims Bible - "residue of men"
Darby Bible Translation - "residue of men"
English Revised Version - "residue of men"
Webster's Bible Translation - "residue of men"
World English Bible - "residue of men"
Young's Literal Translation - "residue of men"

Strongs dictionary says "From kata and loipoy; left down (behind), i.e remaining (plural the rest) -- residue.".

Now you tell me if you are MORE knowledgeable (in greek) than ALL the translators of above versions of Bibles. While it is true (form strongs dictionary) that it is possible to have THAT meaning (left down), in the context, it simply means "rest/residue of the men".

And even if you are more scholarly than ALL those translators, and even if the greek word means "left behind", that doesn't prove pretrib rapture. Here is why:

In the olivet disclosure, the Lord tells that AT His return, while He is STILL IN THE CLOUDS, He will GATHER His ELECT from the four winds.

Matthew 24:31 "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

And this is not rapture according to the pre-tribbers. Because, we have GREAT TRIBULATION BEFORE this happens (i.e., the Lord coming in the clouds and gathering His elect). The description of this is just like the 'rapture', i.e., His elect being GATHERED TOGETHER [See rapture verse "caught up together" - 1 Thessalonians 4:17]

So there will be "left behind [DOWN]" AT the Lord's second coming according to Matthew 24. So even if the meaning of the greek word means, "left behind", it DOES NOT prove pretrib rapture!!! And by the way, Acts 15:14-17 is quoted from Amos 9 as I mentioned before. Please please read the chapter again, it is clearly about the second coming of the LORD.

And for your information, the rapture is a MYSTERY revealed to Paul according to the pre-tribbers. So there is no way that you find rapture in OT prophecies (including Amos 9).


Honestly it has become fashion these days to bring up greek/hebrew into discussions without even knowing the alphabets of greek/hebrew (I'm not saying you don't know, may be you know alphabets). You don't need greek/hebrew skills to interpret the Scriptures. Nor is the Bible given in such a way that the entire theology is based on the way a word is translated.

God bless!

 

[MightyAngel1]

King James Bible - "residue of men" American King James Version - "residue of men" American Standard Version - "residue of men" Douay-Rheims Bible - "residue of men" Darby Bible Translation - "residue of men" English Revised Version - "residue of men" Webster's Bible Translation - "residue of men" World English Bible - "residue of men" Young's Literal Translation - "residue of men" Strongs dictionary says "From kata and loipoy; left down (behind), i.e remaining (plural the rest) -- residue.".

GB--While it is true (form strongs dictionary) that it is possible to have THAT meaning (left down), in the context, it simply means "rest/residue of the men".

Howdy Greatlybeloved! What do you mean that it is possible? Not only is it possible, It is a reality. The Greek definition of kataloipas means left down behind. And, Left Down behind = residue. Both expressions mean the very same thing. Why can't you see this?

GB--And even if you are more scholarly than ALL those translators, and even if the greek word means "left behind", that doesn't prove pretrib rapture.

It doesn't? Seems to me that you are trying your best to keep yourself from believing the PreTribulation Rapture Doctrine. I personally think you are very afraid to believe that God will do what He says He will do. Matter of fact, I think You live in fear of that.

GB--Here is why:

Ok, Let me take a look at your reason.

GB--In the olivet disclosure, the Lord tells that AT His return, while He is STILL IN THE CLOUDS, He will GATHER His ELECT from the four winds.

No, He doesn't!!!! Christ does not say that at all. I will prove this to you using the very verse you posted.

GB quotes----Matthew 24:31 "<b>And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You claim the Bible says...He (Christ) will gather His Elect. I am looking straight at Matthew 24:31 above and I do not see that. I see that Christ will send His Angels, and they (Christ's Angels) will gather His Elect. In my opinion, Comprehending what the Bible actually says is a great help in understanding the Bible.

GB--And this is not rapture according to the pre-tribbers.

And, They are correct. This is not a rapture here. There is only 1 Feast of the Lord that Christ fulfills for the Rapture of all believers in Him before the Tribulation period begins and that is the fulfillment of the Feast of Trumpets.

Question: When are you going to start looking at the Law of Moses to see that PreTribbers are telling you the Truth? You seem to keep avoiding the Law of Moses.

GB--Because, we have GREAT TRIBULATION BEFORE this happens (i.e., the Lord coming in the clouds and gathering His elect).

No, The Lord Jesus Christ does not gather His Elect. The Angels He sends do that for Him. Now, Look at the difference...

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The Lord Jesus Christ himself descends and calls up the Dead in Christ first out of their graves. There are no angels here calling up the dead. And, There are no angels here doing any gathering. Christ Gathers His Glorious Church. No Angels do this for him here!!! The Believers gathered here by Christ is the Faith Seed of Abraham and the Promised Seed called in Isaac.

GB--The description of this is just like the 'rapture', i.e., His elect being GATHERED TOGETHER [See rapture verse "caught up together" - 1 Thessalonians 4:17]

Good grief, Greatlybeloved. You really do not know what you are looking at. Before you argue against a Teaching, It would help to have your ducks in a row first. The Gathered Elect in Matthew 24:31 is the Seed of Jacob multiplied as the Dust of the earth. Can't You tell the difference between Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

GB--So there will be "left behind [DOWN]" AT the Lord's second coming according to Matthew 24.

No, There will not be anyone left down behind after Christ sets His Feet on the Mount of Olives. Once He comes in the clouds, Matthew 24:29-30, He sets His feet on the Mount of Olives, and Christ remains on this earth forever. Christ never leaves this earth again!!! In my honest opinion, What you need to do is get your head out of those commentaries. They are strangulating your Bible comprehension abilities. Kindly stated!