buying and selling

Thiscrosshurts · Nov 14, 2011

Your right that was an attempt at humor.
I actually do risk a deluge because the connections are presented in so many stories in the Bible.There is a beginning in Genesis a middle when Jesus overturns the money changers tables and an end in Revelation.

The knowledge of good and evil is a formula dealing with differences or potentials.There are two dimensions.Good and bad.
The tree of life is the knowledge of life.There is only one dimension.Only life

Cain=metalsmith/merchant
Abel=temporary/morning mist

The word of God is an arrow(perfect,no deviation).
Sin= missing the mark

Abel was killed in the field
Cain was given a mark and sent to the wilderness where there were men who might kill him.
Cain was given a mark to protect him in the wilderness.

Adam and Eve had another son named Seth who remained in the field.

The Cain(merchant) system would be dealt with by God at a later time.
I don't want to sound to cryptic but the bible hides much wisdom in layers.

I used to interpret the bible literally for many years but after a while you see messages behind all the stories in the bible.You start to see pictures within pictures and endless frames.The Word presents patterns and cycles and cycles of patterns and patterns of cycles.
The Word is alive,not history.The words of the Word are Spirit and they are life.These words must be spiritually discerned.

I know you will ask:
How can I apply these things in a way that shows Jesus working in my life.I can apply it on a personal level now and not be a respecter of men.If I get all giddy about being invited to a rich man's party them I already have the mark on my forehead.

Philippians 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

The belly also has connections in this merchant's tale.

Capitalism is a form of slavery,it is preferable to the normal kind of slavery only in that we can choose(within limits) our master(occupation).

We are all under the merchant system one way or another until we can be like Moses and tell Pharaoh(Merchant administrator) "let my people go". Pharaoh will come back with a counter offer.In this case we call that counter offer a job.
The Merchant system is slavery to the belly god and the merchant god.These are spiritual players manifesting themselves in linear time throughout scripture.

Most Christians make that claim when this issue of God or money comes up. And the problem is, well, who am I to say that they don't? And yet, the teachings of Jesus are still there, as well as the example of his followers.

That's a well balanced approach and I find myself adopting same position.It does lead me to believe that it is something worth contemplating,praying about and striving for by faith.

my_little_pony · Nov 15, 2011

*claps hands together and rubs them enthusiastically*

Ahh, now we are getting somewhere. It's nice to be communicating with you, TCH.

I don't get the cain and able stuff, but that's not to say there isn't something relevant there; I just don't understand where you are going with it.

I used to interpret the bible literally for many years but after a while you see messages behind all the stories in the bible.You start to see pictures within pictures and endless frames.

Here too, I'm not quite sure if I'm getting you, but I think I understand the basic sincerity of the comment. I think a similar situation I have experienced is that, no matter how many times I read the Bible, it seems there is always something new to learn when I read it again; even from stuff I've read several times over before.

The Word is alive,not history.The words of the Word are Spirit and they are life.These words must be spiritually discerned.[/QUOTE ]

Agreed. In the NT, Jesus gave specific commands. He said "do this" and "don't do that". On several occasions he was very explicit about demanding obedience to his commands.

And yet, in the example you presented, he said that his words are spirit (i.e. different from "the law" or what we'd normally think of as commands).

I think the apparent contradiction is solved by understanding that the commands of Jesus are only commands insomuch that we need to be commanded. At some point, God is hoping that we will see the REASONS behind the commands, at which point they cease to be commands because we will want to apply those teachings just because we want to be a part of the kingdom of Heaven, and not just because we were commanded to.

I know you will ask:
How can I apply these things in a way that shows Jesus working in my life.

Click to expand...

Yes; very good

If I get all giddy about being invited to a rich man's party them I already have the mark on my forehead.

Click to expand...

Excellent observation. I believe THE Mark, as described in the Bible, will be a literal Mark (even if it's not visible, i.e. under the skin), BUT I also believe the LESSON behind the Mark is a spiritual lesson that applies to all of us, from the time of Jesus until now. The idea of choosing between God and money is something Jesus was very explicit about. The Mark, from the Revelation, represents a time when people will no longer be able to pretend or play games about who their loyalty really belongs to. We either choose God, or we choose buying and selling.

As it is now those games and excuses run rampant through the church world. In that sense, I actually appreciate the efforts of the beast to sort the good guys from the bad guys in a way that is consistent with what Jesus himself taught!

Thiscrosshurts · Nov 16, 2011

I think the apparent contradiction is solved by understanding that the commands of Jesus are only commands insomuch that we need to be commanded. At some point, God is hoping that we will see the REASONS behind the commands, at which point they cease to be commands because we will want to apply those teachings just because we want to be a part of the kingdom of Heaven, and not just because we were commanded to.

That is an excellent observation,I know your on to something there.
I want to contemplate that more before I respond.
I need to beat around the burning bush some more.

WaterRock · Nov 16, 2011

If Adam and Eve were the only procreators, where did Cain's wife come from is a question long asked by many who have studied the Holy Scriptures.

Or why did God need to place a mark upon Cain lest anyone finding him should slay him? If there wasn't nobody but Adam and Eve.

If eye for eye, life for life, why didn't God, whose Word is the same yesterday, today and forever not slay Cain? Maybe because their might be a reason?

farout · Nov 17, 2011

Buy and sell

In Biblical numerology 6 is evil, 66 is wicked, very evil, 666 is as evil as it can get. The mark may well be the way you think. Would you demounce Jesus Christ to buy food? Without denouncing The Lord you could neither buy or sell. Think about it, your own mind already has the mark or the Lord Jesus Christ or the mindset of a antichrist, or the mark of the beast. This makes it so no one excapes everyone either has surrendered to Jesus Christ or to the evil one of old.

Any thoughts? Had you ever thought about the Mark this way? We already have a marked mind, which mark do you have?:shock:

WaterRock · Nov 17, 2011

farout said:
In Biblical numerology 6 is evil, 66 is wicked, very evil, 666 is as evil as it can get. The mark may well be the way you think. Would you demounce Jesus Christ to buy food? Without denouncing The Lord you could neither buy or sell. Think about it, your own mind already has the mark or the Lord Jesus Christ or the mindset of a antichrist, or the mark of the beast. This makes it so no one excapes everyone either has surrendered to Jesus Christ or to the evil one of old.

Any thoughts? Had you ever thought about the Mark this way? We already have a marked mind, which mark do you have?:shock:

Who says buy and sell refers to food for the flesh, the Word of GOD is food for the life of the spirit, those without perish.

Thiscrosshurts · Nov 17, 2011

Matthew 8:9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

Jesus was impressed with this Roman soldier's understanding of command structure.
He saw the ladder of effect.
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Where was Jesus(the son of man) standing when he said this?
He who was standing on earth claimed to be in heaven.

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

The commands(word) came from heaven(out of linear time) and manifested as flesh in the world(time).When the manifested Word spoke he was still in heaven as he spoke.
The command structure came from the spiritual where there is no time and the commands were carried out from out of time into time.

The flesh counts for nothing,it's just a pile of bugs to support the Spirit.Doing timeless spiritual things like loving,believing,forgiving,praying and setting captives free may throw switches in timeless places.
The kingdom of heaven is inside us,but we will not see it until we start to walk out timelessness in time.I am not waiting to die to go to heaven,I'm standing(actually sitting which means it's finished) in it according to Ehpesians 2:6.
I just don't see it with my flesh.

Having done all to stand.
In this flesh I stand on my sitting.

Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Time itself is a harsh master but it's not reality or at least not God's reality.To God we are stuck in something like an annex universe where there is a story playing out.
The living word(water) and the Spirit(fire) mix together to make firewater.

I know I didn't answer all your questions(sorry,it's the firewater) but I typed what I typed.

I don't have any doctrine but I am starting to believe these things because it would explain much seemingly contradictory scripture.

Thiscrosshurts · Nov 17, 2011

If Adam and Eve were the only procreators, where did Cain's wife come from is a question long asked by many who have studied the Holy Scriptures.

There were men in the wilderness.

Or why did God need to place a mark upon Cain lest anyone finding him should slay him? If there wasn't nobody but Adam and Eve.

Maybe the book of Genesis is about the creation of man and not men.

If eye for eye, life for life, why didn't God, whose Word is the same yesterday, today and forever not slay Cain? Maybe because their might be a reason?

I can think of several:
#1 God is love
#2 He was and is love before and after law.
#3 The lamb was slain before the foundation of the world.

Who says buy and sell refers to food for the flesh, the Word of GOD is food for the life of the spirit, those without perish.

I agree but I get the feeling you've got more.
I am certainly not someone who can accuse anyone of being to cryptic but please do expand.

my_little_pony · Nov 18, 2011

In Biblical numerology 6 is evil, 66 is wicked, very evil, 666 is as evil as it can get. The mark may well be the way you think. Would you demounce Jesus Christ to buy food? Without denouncing The Lord you could neither buy or sell. Think about it, your own mind already has the mark or the Lord Jesus Christ or the mindset of a antichrist, or the mark of the beast. This makes it so no one excapes everyone either has surrendered to Jesus Christ or to the evil one of old.

I agree that there is a definite attitude that relates to the spiritual lesson behind the Mark.

But at the same time, I feel there is a literal, physical manifestation of that spiritual lesson (or attitude), as well.

I believe the Mark will be like the final line in the concrete which people will be forced to choose or reject. But as it is now the line is extremely blurry.

I can't see, from what Jesus said, that buying and selling in itself is wrong, since Jesus told us to sell what we have and give it to the poor, and the disciples talked about buying food for the multitudes.

However, Jesus did say quite a bit about WORKING for money. He made it very clear that it is God that we should be working for, and God will take care of our needs if we seek his kingdom first. He said that his Kingdom is about love and people help each other because they want to help, and not because they've haggled a price for their help. He said he wants us to be an example of his Kingdom, but in order to do that we must live by the values of that Kingdom.

That is what being born again is all about; changing over to a whole new set of values radically different from this world's.

As it is now people can spend their time working for money and still claim to be a representative of the Kingdom of Heaven (i.e. a Christian). Ultimately, God is the one to make the final decision on something like that, BUT Jesus gave us these teachings on money/work for a reason and he's not stupid.

So, we have a situation where the majority of the church world still believes that they would die without money and on that basis they continue working to get more of it.

The Mark represents a time when people will no longer be able to hide behind convenient doctrines or churchy cliches about how "God knows my heart". They will accept the Mark or they will finally learn to live by faith the way Jesus explained it.

agua · Nov 18, 2011

my_little_pony said:
....

I can't see, from what Jesus said, that buying and selling in itself is wrong, since Jesus told us to sell what we have and give it to the poor, and the disciples talked about buying food for the multitudes.

However, Jesus did say quite a bit about WORKING for money. He made it very clear that it is God that we should be working for, and God will take care of our needs if we seek his kingdom first. He said that his Kingdom is about love and people help each other because they want to help, and not because they've haggled a price for their help. He said he wants us to be an example of his Kingdom, but in order to do that we must live by the values of that Kingdom.

Are you saying Jesus told us not to work for money ? If so please post the scriptures.

my_little_pony · Nov 18, 2011

I don't have any doctrine but I am starting to believe these things because it would explain much seemingly contradictory scripture.

Yeah, I really appreciated the comments you made about how Jesus said that his words are spirit. It means that, even with commands, we can't nail him down on anything.

However, the commands are still there, including the command to obey the commands!

.I am not waiting to die to go to heaven

Good point, and something I think Jesus taught, too. He said "repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand".

At the beginning of Luke 8 it says Jesus went from town to town SHOWING the Kingdom. It's definitely not just a place we go to when we die.

It's something we express, in real, practical life, right here and now.

I believe the lessons from the Mark, about who we trust, (God or money) is deeply significant to showing the Kingdom of Heaven.

When Jesus taught us to pray, he said that we should say "thy will be done on Earth, as it is in Heaven". In Heaven they just work for love, and money/wages isn't an issue. How can we say this prayer, and then go out and demand that people pay us for our help?

In a situation where the followers of God have forsaken everything for him (luke 14:33) and understand that he really can provide for them without a need to work for money, the Mark becomes a meaningless gimmick.

But to those who believe they would die without working to get more money, the Mark is like a gigantic storm waiting to destroy all these houses built on the sand.

When we work for love we show the kingdom of Heaven. In the book of acts it says the believers sold all they had and shared all things in common. it says they had a common purse and the money from what they sold was used to help everyone according to his need.

Later, there is protest from some people in a town where the disciples arrived to preach. A man says "those who have turned the world upside down have come here".

my_little_pony · Nov 18, 2011

Are you saying Jesus told us not to work for money ? If so please post the scriptures.

Yeah, but for the purpose of working for love instead. I think we are posting at the same time, agua so it may be that my response to TCH will help shed a bit more light on what I'm saying.

I'll post the verses as well. Please note that this theme is a dominant theme through the entire NT and not just some isolated verses. I'm fine to post a list, later, if people want to get an idea of just how consistent this theme is.

The verses I've been referencing so far come from Matthew 6:24-34.

Also, please note that I am NOT suggesting that we be lazy and do no work at all. I am saying that in either case, we must work, but that it is WHO we work for and WHAT we work for.

MT 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

MT 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

MT 6:26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

MT 6:27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

MT 6:28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:

MT 6:29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

MT 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

MT 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

MT 6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

MT 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

MT 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

agua · Nov 18, 2011

Mat 6:24-34 KJV No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. (25) Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? (26) Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? (27) Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? (28) And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: (29) And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. (30) Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? (31) Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (32) (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek

for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. (33) But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. (34) Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

I don't see any reference here about working for money. This passage is about placing undue concern for our needs and putting them above seeking God.

Jesus referred to earning money and wages and Paul mentions the collection for the saints. If we do not work for money how do we obtain it?
Can you post the list of supporting scriptures you have?

Oh maybe I am misunderstanding . It isn't the working for money but our intentions/heart for doing this that matter ?

WaterRock · Nov 18, 2011

my_little_pony said:
It means that, even with commands, we can't nail him down on anything.

That reminds me not to forget that every idle word I say will be taken into judgment. Don't have to nail Him down, the Spirit of Truth will never leave nor forsake the Word of GOD , if we have not the Word of GOD abiding in us, His Spirit will sanctify us with the Truth, He never knew us when we knock of the door to the Eternal Kingdom. That is why I believe on the Word, in the man, not on the man, in the Word, as Paul wrote, have no confidence in the flesh.

my_little_pony · Nov 18, 2011

Hi Agua,

I don't see any reference here about working for money.

Well, it's true, the word "money" does not appear. And yet, it's obviously talking about money (or the concept of money).

This passage is about placing undue concern for our needs and putting them above seeking God. ]

What are our "needs"? Jesus refers to food and clothing. So, how do we GET those needs? Obviously, we use money.

Although Jesus doesn't use the word "money" he does use a word that is very similar to it, but which actually includes money and all the things money can buy: mammon.

Follow along in the verses:
He says we we love one and hate the other. When we choose to work for love, we show our contempt for the monetary system which says we will only help one another if they pay us for it. Remember "born again". This is an example of what it means. We are born again into a totally new set of values, totally different from this world.

He says we cannot work for both without cheating on one or the other. God said our Job is to seek his Kingdom FIRST. If we try to work for money we will be cheating on love, because love doesn't force payment before it agrees to act.

And if we work for love, we will be cheating on the monetary system which dictates that anyone not working for money is not a valuable member of society.

He says we should consider the birds and the flowers BECAUSE they do not spend their time working to get money, and yet God still feeds and clothes them. We don't always know HOW God will provide, but he said he will. How can we believe he will raise us from the dead if we can't believe that he will find a way to take care of us if we actually do what he says?

He said all the world chases after these things, but that we should not be like them. What is the difference between Christians and the rest of the world? They go to church? They read the Bible? So what?

The world needs to see a spiritual revolution, and it's not going to come by doing what the world is doing. So many Christians talk about wanting to witness to the world, but they don't want the discipline that comes with it.

Instead, OUR new job is work for God's Kingdom first, just like Jesus did.

Anyway, I'll get that list together and respond to some of your other comments in a bit.

my_little_pony · Nov 18, 2011

Hi again, agua.

I think it may be useful, as we discuss this issue, to keep in mind that one of Jesus' followers said "the love of money is the root of all evil". I'm not suggesting that anyone here is showing a love of money (yet) but only that it shows money issues are extremely significant to our overall spiritual growth.

If we can keep that teaching in mind, I think it may help us to keep a better perspective in our arguments.

Jesus referred to earning money and wages

I am aware that in some parables Jesus used money to illustrate spiritual lessons. It may be you are suggesting these parables constitute examples of Jesus condoning work for money, but considering all the other stuff Jesus said against working for money, and that parables are meant, by their very nature, to hide a lesson behind some other seemingly different symbolism, I think it would betray a bias in favor of money to do so.

and Paul mentions the collection for the saints.

The Kingdom of Heaven is all about sharing what we have with one another, whether that be our time, labor, or material resources. I see no reason to assume that a call for Christians to share with one another equates to them feeling they need to demand payment from one group of people (i.e. customers) so that they can help a different group of people (i.e. saints) if love is why they want to give in the first place.

Also, your suggestion here leads into other areas which don't really mesh with what Jesus was teaching about money. It looks like you may be suggesting that some people are called to work for money, SO THAT they can give offerings to support missionaries, pastors, etc.

However, you definitely won't find that message in the NT. Jesus told his disciples to pray to God that he will send more laborers, because the laborers for few. Also, we get back to Matthew 6 again, where Jesus is saying that GOD is our employer and not a group of Christians who feel it is their responsibility to pay the bills. Sure, by all means, share with those who need help, but do it in a way that is consistent with what Jesus taught.

If we do not work for money how do we obtain it?

Well, it's all up to God, really. There is no blueprint for how his provision will work from day to day, though I think there are times when he is consistent about something.

Even without being a Christian, there are a myriad of ways to survive on very little money, even no money at all in some extreme cases. The real point is to get the bigger picture for WHY Jesus told us to stop working for money. Once we have a vision for the Kingdom of Heaven all those worries about " but, but, but what will I eat!" and "but if I do that how will I buy clothes" are shown up for the bullies that they are.

I am not talking about stripping naked and walking out onto the street to die, because that's not what Jesus and his followers did. I am talking about thinking about what God wants each of us to do, and then setting about to do it in prayer and faith.

We all have different callings, but the same basic principles of the Kingdom apply to each of us as citizens in the Kingdom. Work for love in right up there at the top of the list.

Okay, I'll post the list in a separate thread. lol I'm starting to feel a bit like someone else I've poked fun at for making lots of consecutive posts!!!

my_little_pony · Nov 18, 2011

Hi Agua, here is the list I was referring to. By no means is it complete, but it is a sample of some of the most relevent verses. I included Matthew 6:24-24 again for consistency.

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Mat 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
Mat 6:26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
Mat 6:27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
Mat 6:28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
Mat 6:29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
Mat 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, [shall he] not much more [clothe] you, O ye of little faith?
Mat 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
Mat 6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Mat 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day [is] the evil thereof.

LK 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Mat 4:18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.
Mat 4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
Mat 4:20 And they straightway left [their] nets, and followed him.

Mat 4:21 And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James [the son] of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them.
Mat 4:22 And they immediately left the ship and their father, and followed him.

Act 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all [men], as every man had need.

Act 4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,

Act 4:35 And laid [them] down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

Act 4:37 Having land, sold [it], and brought the money, and laid [it] at the apostles' feet.

Jhn 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

Luk 10:4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
Luk 10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire.

Luk 22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.

MK 4:19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; [e.g. Remember Matthew 6:24-34"?]

Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all.

1 Corinthians 9:7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?

1 Corinthians 9:8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?

1 Corinthians 9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

1 Corinthians 9:10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

1 Corinthians 9:11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

agua · Nov 18, 2011

my_little_pony said:
Hi Agua,

Well, it's true, the word "money" does not appear. And yet, it's obviously talking about money (or the concept of money).

What are our "needs"? Jesus refers to food and clothing. So, how do we GET those needs? Obviously, we use money.

Although Jesus doesn't use the word "money" he does use a word that is very similar to it, but which actually includes money and all the things money can buy: mammon.

The concept is the love of money. Mammon does not mean "all the things money can buy".

G3126
μαμμωνᾶς
mammōnas
mam-mo-nas'
Of Chaldee origin (confidence, that is, figuratively wealth, personified); mammonas, that is, avarice (deified): - mammon.

Avarice
AV'ARICE, n. [L. avaritia, from avarus, from aveo, to covet.]
An inordinate desire of gaining and possessing wealth; covetousness; greediness or insatiable desire of gain.
Avarice sheds a blasting influence over the finest affections and sweetest comforts of mankind.

Money itself isn't evil. Loving it is.

Follow along in the verses:
He says we we love one and hate the other. When we choose to work for love, we show our contempt for the monetary system which says we will only help one another if they pay us for it. Remember "born again". This is an example of what it means. We are born again into a totally new set of values, totally different from this world.

He says we cannot work for both without cheating on one or the other. God said our Job is to seek his Kingdom FIRST. If we try to work for money we will be cheating on love, because love doesn't force payment before it agrees to act.

Jesus is not talking about working for our needs at all. He is teaching that placing the pursuit of wealth/material things above seeking God is wrong. The concept is the love of money and working for wages does not mean we are "cheating on love". How can a man love his family and not provide for them.

And if we work for love, we will be cheating on the monetary system which dictates that anyone not working for money is not a valuable member of society.

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ontFlipMirrorIndents/> <w:OverrideTableStyleHps/> </w:Compatibility> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> People who work for volunteer organisations are highly respected and valuable members of society. I don’t know of any such prejudice. Of course people who work for money can be considered the same. It's not working for money that is bad but the love of money itself or "mammon".

He says we should consider the birds and the flowers BECAUSE they do not spend their time working to get money, and yet God still feeds and clothes them. We don't always know HOW God will provide, but he said he will. How can we believe he will raise us from the dead if we can't believe that he will find a way to take care of us if we actually do what he says?

Jesus is letting us know that our needs will always be met. This has nothing to do with working for money. Remember we are told to provide for the needs of our family.

1Ti 5:8 NKJV But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

He said all the world chases after these things, but that we should not be like them. What is the difference between Christians and the rest of the world? They go to church? They read the Bible? So what?

The context is "mammon" or avarice and this is entirely different than working for wages. The difference between Christians and the world is their faith and fruit. This fruit can be seen partly in charitable deeds which may include using the money worked for to provide/give to someone in need.

The world needs to see a spiritual revolution, and it's not going to come by doing what the world is doing. So many Christians talk about wanting to witness to the world, but they don't want the discipline that comes with it.

Instead, OUR new job is work for God's Kingdom first, just like Jesus did.

Anyway, I'll get that list together and respond to some of your other comments in a bit.

Are you suggesting all Christians should be working voluntarily and relying on God to provide for them and their families ?

1Ti 5:8 NKJV But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

agua · Nov 18, 2011

my_little_pony said:
Hi Agua, here is the list I was referring to. By no means is it complete, but it is a sample of some of the most relevent verses. I included Matthew 6:24-24 again for consistency.

Luk 14:33 NKJV So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

If we take this verse as you suggest it would mean we should not own anything. Is this what you are implying?

Mat 4:18-20 NKJV And Jesus, walking by the Sea of Galilee, saw two brothers, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen. (19) Then He said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." (20) They immediately left their nets and followed Him.

Jesus was gathering his disciples who were to be full time ministers. Some are called to this position but not everyone is. All Christians are ministers and followers of/for Christ and many do this while maintaining their usual working life.

Mat 4:21-22 NKJV Going on from there, He saw two other brothers, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in the boat with Zebedee their father, mending their nets. He called them, (22) and immediately they left the boat and their father, and followed Him.

Same as above. Are you suggesting everyone should be a full time missionary?

Act 2:44-45 NKJV Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, (45) and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.

Act 4:34-37 NKJV Nor was there anyone among them who lacked; for all who were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold, (35) and laid them at the apostles' feet; and they distributed to each as anyone had need. (36) And Joses, who was also named Barnabas by the apostles (which is translated Son of Encouragement), a Levite of the country of Cyprus, (37) having land, sold it, and brought the money and laid it at the apostles' feet.

These people shared their possessions but what makes you think they ceased working?

Joh 6:27 NKJV Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."

Jesus was not telling people to stop working but that the most important thing in life is believing in Him. The following verses clear this up

Joh 6:28-29 NKJV Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" (29) Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

Luk 10:4-5 NKJV Carry neither money bag, knapsack, nor sandals; and greet no one along the road. (5) But whatever house you enter, first say, 'Peace to this house.
'Luk 10:7 NKJV And remain in the same house, eating and drinking such things as they give, for the laborer is worthy of his wages. Do not go from house to house.

Jesus told the disciples they would be provided for while ministering. They would actually be "paid" for their deeds by people who benefited. Compare ...

1Co 9:9 NKJV For it is written in the law of Moses, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE AN OX WHILE IT TREADS OUT THE GRAIN." Is it oxen God is concerned about?

Luk 22:35 NKJV And He said to them, "When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?" So they said, "Nothing."

See above.

Mar 4:19 NKJV and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

This is once again about placing worldly things above God. Having our priorities correct is extremely important.

Luk 17:28-29 NKJV Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; (29) but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

Ungodly people only have care for their life and its pleasures. Once again it's about priorities.

1Co 9:9-11 NKJV For it is written in the law of Moses, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE AN OX WHILE IT TREADS OUT THE GRAIN." Is it oxen God is concerned about? (10) Or does He say it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written, that he who plows should plow in hope, and he who threshes in hope should be partaker of his hope. (11) If we have sown spiritual things for you, is it a great thing if we reap your material things?

This is showing how ministers for God will/should be paid for their labours. Are you suggesting it means something else?

my_little_pony · Nov 18, 2011

Money itself isn't evil. Loving it is.

I never said it is, so why are you saying it isn't? It may be a case of protesting too much; just say'n..

But, at least now you are saying that the verses in question (i.e. matthew 6) are talking about money, but that Jesus was talking about the love of money as opposed to working to get more of it.

Well, we show who we love by who we give our time to. That's the point of working for two masters, and how we will hate one or the other. Look at it, agua; he said we will hate one of the two. Which one do you hate?

Of course, the obvious question then becomes, why spend your time working for what you hate? Because you are scared of what will happen if you don't?

Jesus is not talking about working for our needs at all

This really does look like a bias, agua, and it's not reasonable. You are suggesting that food and clothing are not needs and it's just, weird that you would do that.

He is teaching that placing the pursuit of wealth/material things above seeking God is wrong.

Yeah, and he gave working for money as an example of how it is wrong. Our loyalty and trust in one master shows our contempt for the other. They are expressed as total opposites, and not as the "one is a bit less than the other" teaching you are presenting here.

What you are suggesting is that the pursuit of mammon (i.e. the other master) IS okay as long as it is "below" God, but you give no example or explanation to show what "below" actually means in practical terms, and how it is consistent with what Jesus said.

The concept is the love of money and working for wages does not mean we are "cheating on love"

Here is what Jesus said about it:
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

"hate one/love the other". "hold to one/despise the other". "God or Mammon" (money/wealth/material things).

Cheating, hating, despising, whatever. The spirit is the same and the bottom line is still "God or money".

How can a man love his family and not provide for them.

Of course, God can take care of a family just as well as he can take care of a single person. The problem here, I think, is that you are still assuming that "provide" MUST be money.

Jesus is letting us know that our needs will always be met. This has nothing to do with working for money. Remember we are told to provide for the needs of our family.

So, why did Jesus tell us to consider the birds of the air and the flowers of the field? Because they don't work for money, and yet God still cares for them.

Of course it's about money.

1Ti 5:8 NKJV But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

This is very similar to the verse "is any man does not work, then he should not eat".

This one is often also used against the idea of working for love as opposed to working for money.

However, neither verse talks about working for or providing with money. They just say the obvious; don't be lazy. Since you quoted it THREE times, agua, I should probably explain what it is most likely talking about.

The early church which Paul was addressing in these letters was a communal church (see the list I posted re:acts). They were living together and sharing all things common, like the disciples did with Jesus and they were preaching a message of love and servitude.

Almost certainly they had people coming into the church who just wanted a free ride or just plain lazy people. Whether it was someone sitting around all day waiting for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, or a husband/wife leaving it to the other members of the chruch to look after their childrens health, education, behavior, etc some practical ground rules needed to be addressed.

That's what "provide for your own family" and "if you don't work you can't eat" means in the context of the letters Paul wrote.

But, EVEN IF Paul came straight out and told the church members to get jobs working for money, that would still NOT change what Jesus said.

This fruit can be seen partly in charitable deeds which may include using the money worked for to provide/give to someone in need.

Sure, and Satan offered Jesus the whole world to do with as he pleased. He could have changed laws and used his fabulous wealth to do lots of charitable deeds.

In fact, the example works even if we take satan out of the picture. Jesus could have been born as the most powerful, rich, and influential king in the history of the world. He could have brought the Kingdom of Heaven to Earth easily using those resources (as you are suggesting in your example).

BUT he didn't do it that way. Instead, he lived like a poor beggar, sometimes without even a place to lay his head. Whatever carpentry business he may have had, he quit to go out preaching the gospel full time.

This behavior is NOT consistent with the example you just gave, about how Christians show their faith in God by working for the other master so they can donate to the poor. It's not what he did, it's not what he taught, and it's not what his disciples did.

Are you suggesting all Christians should be working voluntarily and relying on God to provide for them and their families ?

I am suggesting that being a Christian means doing what Jesus said to do.

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