buying and selling

[Thiscrosshurts]

Thank you for bringing up the community in acts. I feel it is interesting that you feel you could not apply this idea of living by faith to yourself because of your family obligations, and yet the community in acts was made up of thousands of believers. This would definitely have included women and children so it is possible.

In the USA we do not own our children.The government does and they will take them away if you can't provide a certain standard of living.
You can't grow and sell vegetables here unless you have an FDA approved operation which has effectively killed many small farms

I agree it is possible but not for everyone at every time.
I did get a chance to catch up on all the posts and I find myself biased toward your position.

I think agua's position provides a bypass for those who are not in a position to make the transition or may be new in the faith or unsure.
In my early walk it took faith just to find a semi-honest employer and get paid a fair wage.I later started my own business and that took every once of faith I had at the time.
Anyway I didn't see your position as a formula but an exhortation to a closer walk and I receive it that way.

Anyway, I think it's great that you are open to the idea that a community like that really could work. Actually, I know of a community which DOES practice those values, although it's a heck-of-a-lot smaller than thousands!!!

Yes,I believe these groups have found that their is an optimum number,I think it's less than 1000.

Economists will tell you it can't work because greed is what causes growth.However economists don't know my God.

 

[my_little_pony]

Hi brakelite,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I'm a bit concerned that you've not addressed any of the teachings of Jesus (or other supporting scripture I raised). Although I am promoting this teaching of working for one another in love (as opposed to forcing people to give us money for our help), the teaching is not mine. I am merely promoting it.

Can you please address those points? Thanks.


------------------------------

Hi TCH

In the USA we do not own our children.The government does and they will take them away if you can't provide a certain standard of living.
You can't grow and sell vegetables here unless you have an FDA approved operation which has effectively killed many small farms

Fair point, but one which I do not see as contradicting the over-all picture of what I am suggesting. Jesus told us to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

Out smarting the system does take a fair bit of wisdom and counsel. I am not suggesting that people rush out onto the street without any thought at all.

So far, all I've been discussing is the principle behind the teaching and it's legitimacy. The practical application is a lot more involved and complex.

I agree it is possible but not for everyone at every time.
I did get a chance to catch up on all the posts and I find myself biased toward your position.

Well, ultimately a person's relationship is between him/her and God. However, there are standards that apply to anyone wanting to be a part of the Kingdom of Heaven. I am not making a judgment on anyone. I am only promoting standards.

For example, if we want to join a club we must adhere to the standards of that particular club. If they ask for fees to be paid, we must pay them. If they require an age limit, we must meet that age limit. If they require a certain number of hours of attendance at meetings etc...we must meet those requirements in order to be a part of that club.

It would be unreasonable to say that those standards apply to some club members but not other club members, if those standards are what defines a person as a member of the club.

I think agua's position provides a bypass for those who are not in a position to make the transition or may be new in the faith or unsure.

Well, I don't know agua's personal issues, so you may be right. One issue I can think of, which could prevent someone from applying these teachings, is slavery. If a person is not physically able to make his own decisions. I doubt agua is a literal slave, but perhaps slavery doesn't need to be literal chains to still be relevant in this situation.

From discussions I've had with people about this before, they indicate that bills and debts are a form of slavery for them. If only they didn't have so many bills to pay, they'd be happy to live the way Jesus did.

Other people seem to suggest that children or a spouse is the "slavery" that prevents them from action.

But from what I can see of agua's position is that he does not view those issues as "holding him back". His position has been fairly consistent that either the teachings were never meant for him, or that the disciples mis-applied those teachings, thus giving us a skewed example of what they really mean.

For example, when Jesus sent his disciples out without anything, telling them to accept whatever help they are offered as a result of their efforts to work for love, agua says that the disciples misunderstood Jesus; that they should have actually been charging for their ministry because Jesus said "the laborer is worthy of his hire".

There is a fundamental difference between accepting help after doing the work and demanding payment before doing the work. One is what Jesus taught as the kingdom of Heaven and the other is how the systems of man work.

Anyway I didn't see your position as a formula but an exhortation to a closer walk and I receive it that way.

Thanks for that. Again, I am talking about principles. How a person applies these teachings is a bit different to just discussing the teachings' validity.

So much depends on how disciplined people are willing to be and how willing they are to let go, not just as an idea, but an actual willingness and then to ACT on that willingness. In other words, I am not making any ultimatums by promoting these teachings.

 

[agua]

This is a case of seeing what you want to see. The subject of this verse is fraud and has nothing to do with working for money in the context that Jesus taught.

The subject of James 5:4 is precisely about how an employer shouldn't defraud a worker of his wages. You can’t take one piece of the scripture and discard the rest. We can compare this with Leviticus and Deuteronomy. Jesus expects the worker to be paid his due wages.

Lev 19:13 'You shall not cheat your neighbor, nor rob him. The wages of him who is hired shall not remain with you all night until morning.

Deu 24:15 Each day you shall give him his wages, and not let the sun go down on it, for he is poor and has set his heart on it; lest he cry out against you to the LORD, and it be sin to you.

Agua has been doing this with verses from Paul, too, where he states as fact that any time the word "work" is used, agua argues it is about working for money, and not working for love, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Paul’s words about providing for our family are also very clear and he showed throughout his ministry that he both worked and received wages. Jesus taught this principle and Jesus taught Paul.

Luk 10:7 NKJV And remain in the same house, eating and drinking such things as they give, for the laborer is worthy of his wages. Do not go from house to house.

I posted a long list of verses supporting work for love, but agua had a reason why each one either didn't matter to us or didn't mean what it was plainly teaching.

You posted a number of verses claiming they provided evidence that Jesus taught not to work for money. None of the verses were relevant to the topic. I really don't mind if you claim we shouldn’t receive wages as a personal preference but you shouldn’t misrepresent scripture to suit your position.

Again, a convenient doctrine. Jesus sent his disciples out into the world and specifically told them to take NOTHING for their journey except the clothes they were wearing. He told them to go everywhere preaching the gospel and to accept whatever help they are offered along the way, because the laborer is worthy of his hire.

Yes Jesus said the disciples were worthy of their hire/wages. This principle is throughout scripture and is why a Pastor is paid by his congregation.

1Ti_5:18 For the Scripture says, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE AN OX WHILE IT TREADS OUT THE GRAIN," and, "THE LABORER IS WORTHY OF HIS WAGES."

God is there employer and they are his employeres. The "wages" that they are worthy of is God's provision for them, just like Jesus taught in Matthew 6. They work for his Kingdom, and God provides for them.

The people who received the disciples paid/provided for them. They were paid for their service because they were "worthy of their wages".

"And remain in the same house, eating and drinking such things as they give" . God ordained provision for their labour but the goods/wages came from the householder.

Agua takes this concept of an invisible God who cares for his laborers because they work for love and twists it into a money making scheme where it's not longer about working for love, but working for "wages".

Once again you are attempting to meld charity with employment. They are different concepts and the Christian is expected to do both. Working for wages isn’t a “money making scheme”. A “money making scheme” would be an employee who didn’t pay his workers or anyone who fraudulently raises money.

In his attempt to justify the idea that we would all die if we didn't give our lives over to working for money he assumes that any talk of labor, or work, or wages, or hire MUST mean loyalty to the system as our boss rather than loyalty to God as our boss.

It's a classic case of a carnal person being carnal minded.

I haven’t implied " we would all die if we didn't give our lives over to working for money" but I prefer you twisting my words than Jesus’. We show loyalty to God by being diligent employees. He expects we conduct ourselves in a manner fitting of our calling.

In Paul's case, he reiterated Jesus' teachings, asking "who goes to war at his own wages"? It was an example of how, even worldly militaries do not expect their soldiers to go out and get a job with some other employer so they can support themselves while in the army, because if they tried to do that then they wouldn't have time to be in the army. It's the same with us and that is the point of not being able to work for two masters at the same time.

1 Corinthians 9:7 is about God's workers being paid wages by those who benefit. If you use a scripture it is important to take the full context and not separate the parts that disagree with your ideal.

1Co 9:7-11 NKJV Who ever goes to war at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat of its fruit? Or who tends a flock and does not drink of the milk of the flock? (8) Do I say these things as a mere man? Or does not the law say the same also? (9) For it is written in the law of Moses, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE AN OX WHILE IT TREADS OUT THE GRAIN." Is it oxen God is concerned about? (10) Or does He say it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written, that he who plows should plow in hope, and he who threshes in hope should be partaker of his hope. (11) If we have sown spiritual things for you, is it a great thing if we reap your material things?

We are in God's army now. It's our job to work for him and it's his job to take care of us. Going out to work for some other employer is like abandoning our post, because the general has already told us he will take care of us.

Jesus put in place the principal where workers were paid . If you do not work and provide for your family you are indeed abandoning a post God has set and are considered worse than an unbeliever.

But Agua takes a teaching like this and says , see? Paul talked about us supporting ourselves. He totally misses the point because he doesn't believe that God really would take care of him if he just did what the disciples did.

This is a distortion of what is actually written but hey, that's what convenient doctrines are all about.

Paul reiterated Jesus teachings about work and wages. See above.

There is only ONE verse in the entire Bible that mentions Paul tent making. The background is that Paul was on his own and feeling frustrated that the Church he was teaching wasn't helping him. Because he didn't want to sound like the bad guy and demand that they help him, he decided that he would try to provide for himself. He later apologizes to this particular church for taking it easy on them, because what they needed was hard love and he didn't give it to them.

Can you please post the scriptures supporting this claim of Paul's feelings/intentions while working for scrutiny.

Anyway, eventually Timothy and Silus show up and it says that Paul was pressed in the spirit and immediately went back to preaching the gospel full time.

But, EVEN IF Paul did teach that people should busy themselves making money instead of preaching the gospel, so what? It's still not what Jesus taught or practiced. Paul himself said that if he or an angle from Heaven should teaching anything other than what Jesus taught, he should be accursed.

Paul was taught by Jesus himself and his words are inspired of God so there are no contradictions between the two. There is no reason to even suggest it is possible.

Gal 1:11-12 NKJV But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. (12) For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Paul was a great man, but he was still human and subject to faults and he didn't want people following him in areas where he slipped up.

Post any scriptures where Paul "slipped up " on the subject we are discussing.

Three points here:
1) "Tithe" literally means "10%" and is old testament teaching. Jesus said he came to fulfill the law and bumped it up to 100%. Luke 14:33

Luke 14:33 has nothing to do with tithing or working for wages.

2) Notice the condition here; FULL TIME service to God.
3) Jesus said we are all priests in his kingdom now.

4) Agua is apparently suggesting that God doesn't want all of us in his full time employ, because he needs most of us out there working for money so "the priests" don't starve to death. This is NOT what Jesus taught. It is in fact a perversion of what Jesus said, based on convenience.

*bangs head against wall* Lord give me strength. : p
Every Christian didn't go with Jesus or Paul in their travels. God appoints people to be in full time service of spreading the Gospel and these people are paid/supported by their congregation.

1Co 12:28-29 KJV And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. (29) Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

G652
ἀπόστολος
apostolos
ap-os'-tol-os
From G649; a delegate; specifically an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ (“apostle”), (with miraculous powers): - apostle, messenger, he that is sent.

We live our lives as a sacrifice to God
No, it's a very relevant analogy because the point isn't about what the particular offense is, but about justifying the offense using a convenient doctrine.

You used a sinful practice as an analogy for a godly principle. Poor choice.

For example, Jesus said that when we give, we should do it secretly and that people who give openly will get no reward in Heaven, because they "respect" they get from people here on Earth is all the reward they get.

But the majority of Christianity totally ignores that and somehow or another they just can't help but let someone know about the secret giving they did.

You are misrepresenting most Christians I know. Where do you get this idea from ?

They claim that it's okay because it's being done to the glory of God. What Jesus said becomes pointless, and they do so on the basis that it's God's glory that makes his teachings pointless! it's so disgusting.

That's what's happening with this work for love vs money thing. Jesus says that the Kingdom of heaven is about sharing with one another and that anyone who becomes an employ of God, working for love, will be provided for by God.

But Agua says the kingdom of Heaven really isn't about working for one another out of love. It's about providing for ourselves and we can make up for the part where we are not working for love by claiming that it's all to the glory of God!

When we work to support our family we are acting in accordance with a scriptural direction. We not only provide for ourselves when we earn money from our labour but we also provide for our family and others who are in need. We also support the Church and it's full time missionaries/Pastors etc.
I am still waiting to hear how you provide for your family. Please also tell me how you are able to use an internet provider.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

The practical application is a lot more involved and complex. The practical application is a lot more involved and complex.

Yes,there are many variables and levels of understanding to take into consideration.
You mention slavery as an exception and that's kind of why I mentioned
the laws of my country interfering(seemingly) with my freedom in Christ.
I am a slave to love(the people in my life) and to meet the obligations I incurred before I was ever a believer.
The story you provided about Richard James is an example of meeting all obligations before making a transition.He did not take bread from his children's mouths to give.He gave from surplus and supplied his family a surplus to cover his prior obligations.If his family were not believers he could not expect them to contribute to his new ideal.

I really would like go into the merchant story and God's responses in the old testament that I think help support the idea that we can escape man's merchant system.I don't have time right now but would just like to throw these verses out there as a quick example.

Isaiah 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Isaiah 55:2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.

 

[my_little_pony]

The story you provided about Richard James is an example of meeting all obligations before making a transition.He did not take bread from his children's mouths to give.He gave from surplus and supplied his family a surplus to cover his prior obligations.If his family were not believers he could not expect them to contribute to his new ideal.

Maybe so, but what if his family had agreed to come with him? What if they, like him, decided to forsake all their wealth to go preach the gospel?

See, there is no system or formula which can guarantee provision because it's all about trusting God. That doesn't mean we just sit around on the street with bowls in our hands waiting for God to send manna from heave, (well, unless he tells us too!).

But in the example of Jesus sending the disciples out, he told them to accept whatever help was offered to them, because that is what the Kingdom of Heaven is all about; i.e. sharing.

If we share our time with others, then others will feel inspired to share with us and there is not need for "payment". Instead of working for wages, we promote gifts (or sharing).

There is definitely a lot of work to do.

Now, I feel it's worth going back to the Mark of the Beast prophecy that I originally shared about, because it is also about working for money.

the prophecy says we cannot buy or sell without it but if we take it we will be cursed by God. This is another witness to the idea of a choice between God and money.

The answer to surviving the Mark will be the same as what it takes to live by faith now, that is, to start applying the teachings of Jesus and trusting him to provide for us.

It will take discipline, a willingness to sacrifice and a willingness to break with traditions.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

I've had a little time to consider this and my first thought was that he would have preferred to have his family with him regardless of the money.
Then I considered that if I were in his position I would probably have never given up on my family no matter how long they rejected God's love.
My hope would have been that they would enjoy spending the worldly wealth by using it to deliver people from distress(cloth them) and to support them in transitioning to God's kingdom principles(feed them).
I am not sure he actually abandoned his wealth,it seems more like he took a small portion and then paid off his obligations with the rest.I personally don't feel millions are adequate compensation for a living loving father/husband.

Jesus told his disciples to "take no purse" when he sent them out on a mission.It was more a tactic than a strategy in this context.It was to fulfill scripture and to flash the truth into time.

Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

So I feel that a living word can give me the option of taking a purse or not.However there is the possibility that future events could narrow those options.

Jesus said that his words are spirit. It means that, even with commands, we can't nail him down on anything.

This statement has kind of followed me around the last few days.
It's almost a little disturbing but I keep getting this image of man wanting a formula he can get from God so that he won't need God anymore.
A living friend can never be a formula and a formula can never be a living friend.
So you and agua can both be right and you can both be my friend.
I don't feel either of you were trying to promote any formula.
I felt you each offered a well thought out view of the same object (what I call a "body of wisdom")from opposite ends.

 

[brakelite]

I've just been reading some yahoo articles and found one about toys that kinda fits this topic, and which I thought was quite relevant.

What makes the author think James went nuts? Because he forsook his wealth or his family?

Is it really insanity to give up wealth? Well, according to the systems of man, yes. It is considered to be insanity to care less for money than one does for God.

But what did Jesus say? Luke 14:33 .

Out of curiosity, I googled James and found this article. My comments on the article will appear in bold.

-------------

Dear Cecil:
In a new book, Inventing the 20th Century: 100 Inventions That Shaped the World, I read that the inventor of the Slinky, Richard James, joined a cult in Bolivia to which he donated much of his profits. What cult? Do proceeds from sales of Slinkys still go to the cult?


— KenP, from the Straight Dope Message Board


Cecil replies:
What's your problem with cults,Ken?


Why, just this spring while writing a check I said to myself, this money is going to fund religious zealots bent on subverting everything I hold dear. But I mailed in my income tax anyway.


In any case, I don't know that we want to call Richard James's coreligionists a cult. Details about the group are scanty, and it's possible they were just an exceptionally enthusiastic bunch of Episcopalians. Besides, it's been more than 40 years since any Slinky money found its way into the organization's coffers.


[NOTE: we do NOT know what the beliefs of this "cult" really are. Everything about this group, so far, is based on what the common understanding of the word "cult" means. Generally speaking, it is a pejorative term meant instill a sense of fear or mistrust.]



During the 1950s, however, quite a bit did. Here's as much of the story as I could piece together, based on conversations with Richard's ex-wife, Betty, a remarkable woman who saved the Slinky company after her husband bailed.


[NOTE: Please remember that this entire article is based on what the WIFE has to say about it. It is ONE witness.]



It all started in 1943, when Richard, an engineer at a navy shipyard in Philadelphia, noticed a torsion spring fall off a table and wiggle when it hit the floor. In the metallurgical equivalent of Newton's apple, Richard recognized a toy waiting to be born.



Having succeeded in finding steel with the right combination of lightness and springiness — no small feat in wartime — he was ready to take his product to market by late 1945. Realizing that the key to selling the Slinky was showing it in action, he fabricated a display in which the toy walked down steps and persuaded the Philadelphia branch of Gimbel's department store to let him give demonstrations.



Shoppers went nuts, and in 90 minutes Richard's entire stock of 400 Slinkys had sold out. The thing was a hit at a toy fair the following spring and soon had become a national phenomenon.


By the 1950s Richard was pretty flush. He and Betty lived with their growing family on a 12-acre estate near the suburb of Bryn Mawr on Philadelphia's affluent Main Line. But he wasn't content and at some point got religion. Previous accounts have been vague on how this came about, and Betty herself doesn't have a lot of specifics.



[NOTE: The word "cult" raises A LOT of fear in the general public. In a sitution where there are very little specifics, why use such a strongly NEGATIVE word to describe someone who gave up his wealth for God? Could it be that forsaking wealth for God is seen as one of the most despicable things a person can do?

Please remember that the wife herself, the closest person to James at the time, had very little information to share about this religious group. Why is that? You wil read, a bit later, that James sent many letters to his estranged wife. How is it that she never bothered to listen to what her husband had to say about something significant enough to cause him to forsake his fortune?]



She doesn't know what religious organization Richard got hooked up with, only that it was an evangelical Christian sect that she termed a cult. Richard began consorting with what Betty considered dubious characters, made sizable financial contributions, and testified at revival meetings. She attended one and found it mortifying.


[NOTE: She doesn't know who they are, but she termed them a cult and dubious characters? Really? I don't know who 99.9 percent of the people on this forum are. That doesn't mean I can declare this forum to be a cult of dubious persons.

But wait! Could it be that betty's REAL problem is that James made "sizable contributions" to this group? Of course, anyone giving away their wealth as a response to faith in God MUST be part of a religious cult, even if we don't know what this supposed cult even teaches!!!]



I asked Betty what had gotten into her husband. She said Slinky sales were slumping in the mid-50s and that Richard, a charismatic man who had gotten used to being a big shot, liked the attention he got while confessing his sins.


[NOTE: He liked the attention. Remember this point from Betty, the wife who feels upset that James is forsaking the wealth that he acquired.]



Wondering what kind of sins we were talking about, I asked: "Did Richard have, ah, personal issues that led to his religious conversion?" Yes, Betty said. He'd been a philanderer. She'd found out about it, they'd had discussions of the sort that usually ensue, but she'd stayed with him for the sake of their six children.


[NOTE: Okay, so he apparently cheated on his wife. When he tried to confess his sin, as the Bible says we should do, she wasn't happy with that, either. She said he was just doing it for "attention". ]



Finally, in February 1960, Richard announced to Betty and their two eldest children that he was moving to Bolivia to work for his religious group. They could either sell the business or run it themselves; he was cutting all ties.


[NOTE: Remember what Betty said about this guy only confessing his sins for attention? Why would someone who only wants attention suddenly give up all of that attention so freely? It doesn't make sense.


A lucrative, multi-million dollar business and this guy was just giving it all up. He didn't even put up a fight about it. He said they could do whatever they wanted with it. Sounds very much like what Jesus told his followers to do, and very much like a wife wrapped too much up in the systems of man to care about her husbands faith.]



By July he was gone. What exactly he did in Bolivia, Betty doesn't know, although there's no reason to think it was anything along the lines of Jim Jones in Guyana — more like a mission, from the sound of it. At one point she heard he was printing religious tracts.

[NOTE: So she did know SOMETHING about what he was doing. He was printing religious tracts. That's what she knew about him BEFORE this interview took place, and yet, she still decided that it was worth testifying that he was pulled into a "cult"? Really? Because he printed religious tracts?

A woman smart enough to rescue a failing financial business on her own would be smart enough to realize that ALL religions print tracts. She was not honest in this interview. HER beef was that he gave MONEY to this group. Her beef was that he forsook all his wealth to follow his conscience. To someone who believes that we cannot live without money, that is insanity of the highest degree.]



To provide for her family, Betty decided to keep the Slinky business going, but it was on the verge of bankruptcy. Richard had diverted the company's resources to his religious interests and left millions of dollars in unpaid bills. Betty begged her creditors to be patient, and miraculously they all agreed. She wangled a TV advertising deal, moved the Slinky plant to her hometown of Hollidaysburg in central Pennsylvania, and slowly put the company back on its feet.


Every so often she got accusatory letters from Richard urging her to repent. At one point he asked that she leave the children and join him in Bolivia. She never replied. In 1974 she heard that he had died of a heart attack, and that was that.
Betty ran James Industries, as the Slinky company was officially known, for nearly four decades.


[NOTE: Accusatory letters to repent? Jesus himself said, "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand". Here is a guy who forsook all his wealth to follow his conscience, based on what we know of the story, and yet his wife feels it is an accusation for him to ask her to do the same. Who has more authority in a situation where one person lets go of everything and the other person claims it is insanity to let go of everything? Who is more consistent with the values of the kingdom of Heaven?


Why is "forsake all you have" seen as an accusation? Jesus himself said the very same thing. Luke 14:33


Could it be that the love of money is at work here, in a very subtle way?]



In 1998, having produced close to 300 million Slinkys since the founding of the company, she sold out for a boatload of money to a Michigan company that promised to keep the Slinky plant and its 120-some jobs in Hollidaysburg. Your Slinky buck may have supported some dubious ventures prior to 1960, but it's been well spent since.
— Cecil Adams


[NOTE: Remember the parable of the rich man and lazarus? Here we have a millionaire who became a poor man in a 3rd world country because of his faith in God, and a very wealth woman who got everything she wanted because she believed her husband to be crazy.



How do you think God sees it?]

This story, whether a cult or not, is one of unfaithfulness to ones spouse. Not the wife being unfaithful, but R. James. His family ought to have taken priority over the church. God first. Family second. Church, missions etc third.
The scriptures say to love one's wife as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it. James did not do this. He abandoned his wife and children.
There is no good moral lesson in this story.

 

[my_little_pony]

Hi TCH.

Then I considered that if I were in his position I would probably have never given up on my family no matter how long they rejected God's love.

Actually, he didn't give up on his family. The story says that he wrote many letters asking them "to repent". But don't forget this story is based on the account of his wife, who clearly disagreed with what he was doing. He probably asked her to come with him in each of those letters.

So, what is a person to do, when he feels God is telling him to go, but his family refuses? What should Lot have done? Did he abandon his wife?

What did Jesus say about loyalty to himself vs loyalty to family?

Now look at what brakelite has to say about it. He can't see ANY good at all in what James did. Why is that? Could it be because James gave up everything for his faith in God, including his multimillion dollar business?

Could it be that the example of this story supports what I've been suggesting about the teachings of Jesus and money? Is it really brakelite's place to make a judgment that James did not love his wife? Sounds pretty harsh and unloving, coming form a guy who apparently can see no good whatsoever in a man forsaking his wealth or family for God.

Seriously, brakelite. I suggest you consider some kind of apology to God (not to me or here on this forum, but just in your heart) for such a harsh attitude. Don't reject it just because I'm saying it or because we disagree on some things. Anyway, something to think about.

This statement has kind of followed me around the last few days.
It's almost a little disturbing but I keep getting this image of man wanting a formula he can get from God so that he won't need God anymore.

Good. It sounds like you are on the right track. The spirit is like the wind. We either flow with it like butterflies or we become hard, inflexible posts in the ground, incapable of being moved by the spirit.

So you and agua can both be right and you can both be my friend.

Yes, despite our positions, we can still be friendly. However, we cannot both be right. It's not totally black and white. There were some truths in what agua was saying, but what he was arguing was still fundamentally different to what I was arguing.

I understand you are in a difficult position because your's is very similar to his. You have a family, so the arguments he made sound very appealing. I didn't post the James story as some kind of hint that you should abandon your family, but because it was an example of someone forsaking his wealth for God.

You should do the best you can to lead your family into a greater understanding of what God wants. That is the REAL provision that Paul spoke of. Just like the pharisees confused the bread from Heave (Jesus) with literal bread they could eat, so too is agua confusing providing for a mans family with material gain.

It's a bit like Solomon and his wish. He could have wished for fame and fortune and received it, but he would have been spiritually dead. Because his first wish was for something Godly, God blessed him with the other stuff too. But he had to do what God wanted, first.

It's like that with living by faith. People who work for money are like Solomon wishing for wealth. But people who work for love are like Solomon wishing for wisdom. Because they do it the way Jesus told them to, he gives them what they need as well, and they don't need to compromise with the systems of man.

 

[my_little_pony]

I was listening to an audio Bible this morning and came across a verse which I had totally forgotten in my discussions with agua. I feel kinda stupid about that. I think the reason is because it's basically the same exact thing Jesus said from Matthew 6, about not being able to serve two masters, God or mammon, but there is a bit dialog about how people responded to this particular teaching in this account.

LK 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

LK 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.

LK 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Why would the religious leaders insult Jesus for a teaching about serving God and not mammon? Was is really because they "loved" money? Why would they not just agree on the same basis that agua agreed, that Jesus' teachings on the issue were basically pointless because, when it comes right down to it, who will admit to loving money? No one will. EVERYONE will say that the teaching does not apply to them, because they do not love money. Even very rich people will tell you that.

BUT, maybe the pharisees understood that Jesus was talking about working for money vs working for God and THAT is what got them so offended.

Because Jesus was new on the scene they didn't have thousands of years worth of time to come up with convenient doctrines about "excessive" wealth. They knew what he meant and it bugged them.

Look at vs 15. Jesus said that their attempts to discredit the spirit of his teachings was nothing more than them trying to justify themselves. These days people do much the same thing, but it's no longer okay to ridicule Jesus (well, at least not for religious people).

They need some OTHER way to discredit Jesus. They do it through "convenient doctrines". This means they create doctrines which kinda sound right, but are still fundamentally different.

For example, they will say "Jesus was talking about loving wealth, not working to get more of it". Sounds good, doesn't it? But it's only a half truth.

Here's the other half; We need to get money to pay other people to preach the gospel and we need to get money to pay our bills and we need to get money because we'd die without it etc, etc, etc.

Although they are not insulting Jesus, the self-justification is still there. Their reasons for working for money sound reasonable enough on the surface, but all those reasons still do NOT address what Jesus said.

The self-justification has reached the point that it becomes un-thinkable NOT to spend our lives forcing other people to pay us for our help. If someone says "hey, why not work for love, because that's what the Kingdom of Heaven is all about", invariably someone will come back with something like "what, and let our families starve to death, are you crazy!"

 

[Beans]

Wow. What an amazing story about the slinky guy.
I tend to agree with Pony, that the guy did the right thing, even though it goes against our natural way of thinking.

I thought Brakelight's comments were very telling.

This story, whether a cult or not, is one of unfaithfulness to ones spouse. Not the wife being unfaithful, but R. James. His family ought to have taken priority over the church. God first. Family second. Church, missions etc third.
The scriptures say to love one's wife as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it. James did not do this. He abandoned his wife and children.
There is no good moral lesson in this story.

Sounds like he's basically saying that God should be first, but that he can't tell you to do anything! How can you put God first and then let your family stop you from following him?
There is biblical support for going against your family you know.

Luke 8:21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

and Luke 14:26

Pretty heavy, but hey it's in the book.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

There is biblical support for going against your family you know.

Indeed there is if necessary but how much more is God glorified when all our relationships are blessed.
We are to follow Gods' command to love God and neighbor.

Our new family is the family of God.
However what business do I have running off to save the world if I can't convince those in my house that the way of the Lord is better than the way of the world.Not all are called as evangelists to those who have never heard.Some are called to be like Rizpah.

2 Samuel 21:10 And Rizpah the daughter of Aiah took sackcloth, and spread it for her upon the rock, from the beginning of harvest until water dropped upon them out of heaven, and suffered neither the birds of the air to rest on them by day, nor the beasts of the field by night.
Rizpah was protecting the bodies of the crucified sons of Saul.

Hopefully the evidence of love,power and a sound mind working in my life will cause them to seek my advice and then I may gain opportunity to let them know the power of the hope that I have been brought into.

1 Corinthians 7:13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
1 Corinthians 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
1 Corinthians 7:16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
We don't have arraigned marriages anymore so if I can't save the one who fell in love with me at some point then I may want to reflect on that before running off to save the world.As far as I can see if I don't ever give up on them then they are sanctified through my relationship with Christ.

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

 

[Kit Carson]

Used to be not too long ago we raised our own crops, cattle and produce and supported ourselves in this manner. Excess crops and livestock were sold for money and used by others also and with this money other needs were met.

In the lifestyle of today, most work for others and gain money for their work and support themselves in this manner. Most food is produced by large companies, be it produce or meat such as chickens, even though small chicken producers produce them, the large company controls them.

Times change and technology changes with it and it may come to pass that we all do have a card or chip or something to buy, be paid, and so on to conduct business. Is this the mark of the beast?? Time will tell I suppose.

God fortunately tells us we will know these times, and to watch for the signs, in other words it will not be a sneak attack. We will know what is going on and by his word and by his signs we will easily be able to know and to reject this mark.

The Bible says the trumpets will sound first, vegetation, crops and so on will be destroyed in part, the sea and water will become blood or in some way contaminated, the stars will be darkened and it will become cold, bugs with stingers and things will be let loose , and so on and on, and the 144, 000 will already have the mark of God so they will not be effected in the tribulation. But we will know these things are about to come to be by these signs, there will be conflict and war and the two witnesses whomever they are will preach and testify, die and be given life again.

Then the beast shows up and requires all to take the mark. If you do not take it, as all food and goods are now controlled by powerful and rich men you will not eat, buy or sell unless you assume and take the mark of the Beast. There is great turmoil , crops are destroyed, life is tuff, and about the only way left to cling to life will be to accept the beast.

But there will be an idol or false beast or something, that the live beast will give life. This will convince many that the beast is real and they will follow this.

But God is great, he tells us these things ahead of time, he warns us and as the book of revelation says, all who read this are blessed. For you will understand.

So if we are alive in this time we will not be able to buy or sell as the food and goods are controlled by the Beast, the rich and powerful who are ungodly and the earth is in turmoil.

So ya know what, if it comes to pass in my lifetime , I will find the beast and spit in his face. I will be killed , but I will gain life and non suffering by the simple understanding Gods word provides.

But it is not going to sneak up on anyone, whatever the mark it is a mark required at this time, and there will be plenty of signs to allow us to know this time is near.

So if you are alive at this time you will either decide to follow God, reject the beast and die, or follow the beast and then God will deal with you anyway.

It is a simple choice, which one will you accept?

Look for the sixth seal, this comes to pass before the beast shows up, earthquakes of great magnitude, sun and stars will become dark, moon will be like blood, some of the stars will fall to earth, no longer will God keep order he will let some fall, and the third seal signifies great famine and scarcity on earth, these things we will see in time to make wise choices.

So if we see these things, and then have to accept a chip or mark in the hand or on the forehead, uh oh, could be. but we will see these signs first.

The buy and sell thing will be hard because of the scarcity, the turmoil and lack of being able to support oneself without money. This is why you will not be able to buy or sell without the mark .

Kit

 

[my_little_pony]

However what business do I have running off to save the world if I can't convince those in my house that the way of the Lord is better than the way of the world

I think I understand your position here, but at the same time I hope you can see that you are exaggerating a bit. When you say "running off to save the world", you make it sound like you are being asked to do some impossible job and that it's wrong for others to suggest such a thing.

But others did not suggest it; you did. I am guessing this is because you may feel backed into a corner on this family/money issue. I want to be clear that I am not telling you that you should leave your family for whatever reason. I don't even know them.

What I am talking about are general spiritual principles. How you feel they apply to you is between you and God.

However, as beans stated, the teachings are still there in black and white. The guy from the slinky story left his family. We may see that as some horrible act of selfishness, because our cultural conditioning says that the family is all important.

But, if you compare it to what Jesus said about forsaking our family to follow him, is what he did really so horrible? He left his family AND his wealth behind to follow his conscience.

If it was just his family he left behind, while holding on to his wealth, I think that would be a very different story. Based on what the wife shared, it sounds like he never stopped trying to convince them to get back together. It was the wife who could not let go of the family wealth, and who refused to follow her husband.

------------------------

Hi Kit, thanks for your thoughts. At the beginning of this thread I suggested that the Mark of the Beast is something that will happen in the future, BUT that the Revelation is a revelation of Jesus and that the SPIRITUAL lessons cross over into our time now. Revelation 19:10 says that the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus.

The Mark is a representation of man's dependence on money. That's precisely WHY the AC will choose "buying and selling" as a means of controlling the world. He knows that the majority of the world genuinely believes they would die without working for money.

This dependence on money is where the cross-over happens between a future time where the Mark will be implemented, and the world as we know it today, where there is no Mark. The basic lesson in both circumstances is the same.

Do we choose to work for God, or to work for money? In matthew 6:24 Jesus said that we cannot serve two masters, and he compared to the masters to God and mammon (money and the things money can buy). This is a choice which sounds identical to the choice presented in the Revelation, between choosing God, or choosing the mark (buying and selling).

In conclusion, we shouldn't need to wait for the Mark before we start to live by faith now. Even if we all die before the Mark comes into effect as a law, we shouldn't need to wait until some law forces us to choose to live by faith in God's values as opposed to faith in the systems of man.

 

[Kit Carson]

I think I understand your position here, but at the same time I hope you can see that you are exaggerating a bit. When you say "running off to save the world", you make it sound like you are being asked to do some impossible job and that it's wrong for others to suggest such a thing.

But others did not suggest it; you did. I am guessing this is because you may feel backed into a corner on this family/money issue. I want to be clear that I am not telling you that you should leave your family for whatever reason. I don't even know them.

What I am talking about are general spiritual principles. How you feel they apply to you is between you and God.

However, as beans stated, the teachings are still there in black and white. The guy from the slinky story left his family. We may see that as some horrible act of selfishness, because our cultural conditioning says that the family is all important.

But, if you compare it to what Jesus said about forsaking our family to follow him, is what he did really so horrible? He left his family AND his wealth behind to follow his conscience.

If it was just his family he left behind, while holding on to his wealth, I think that would be a very different story. Based on what the wife shared, it sounds like he never stopped trying to convince them to get back together. It was the wife who could not let go of the family wealth, and who refused to follow her husband.

------------------------

Hi Kit, thanks for your thoughts. At the beginning of this thread I suggested that the Mark of the Beast is something that will happen in the future, BUT that the Revelation is a revelation of Jesus and that the SPIRITUAL lessons cross over into our time now. Revelation 19:10 says that the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus.

The Mark is a representation of man's dependence on money. That's precisely WHY the AC will choose "buying and selling" as a means of controlling the world. He knows that the majority of the world genuinely believes they would die without working for money.

This dependence on money is where the cross-over happens between a future time where the Mark will be implemented, and the world as we know it today, where there is no Mark. The basic lesson in both circumstances is the same.

Do we choose to work for God, or to work for money? In matthew 6:24 Jesus said that we cannot serve two masters, and he compared to the masters to God and mammon (money and the things money can buy). This is a choice which sounds identical to the choice presented in the Revelation, between choosing God, or choosing the mark (buying and selling).

In conclusion, we shouldn't need to wait for the Mark before we start to live by faith now. Even if we all die before the Mark comes into effect as a law, we shouldn't need to wait until some law forces us to choose to live by faith in God's values as opposed to faith in the systems of man.

Well little one:

The Bible speaks to me with great simplicity. I marvel at the complications man invents to explain it all. Some of it I cannot even comprehend where it comes from .

So we all know the end times are not here yet. Contrary to what many who wish to create fear and live in fear wish all to believe.

So lets use common sense a bit.

If I walk into a store today and the clerk says Kit you cannot buy that material as you do not have the new scan chip in your hand. Did they not tell you about this?? No.......well you have to have one to buy this material, our system is set up by computer and there is no other way you can buy this item without this chip.

Well if it happens today I will go get myself a chip, I want a bright shiny one..Lol! I would know this is but the new way, the way of commerce and I must conform to conduct business, there are no earthquakes, the sun still shines and no asteroids are falling and killing people, so today I accept. There are isolated famines as there always has been on earth, but there is no world wide famine or scarcity of food and basics for life. So I will take this chip, just make it a shiny one. !!

Now bear this modern day commerce chip in mind as we enter the end times. I do not think it is this, as we will most likely have this technology long before the end times. But keep it in mind as an example.

So we are in the end times and there is world wide famine and hardship and the Beast and the worldly and the rich all hold and control the food, the basics of life. They hold it and control it. So now you cannot grow crops as the earth is poisoned, much of it is burned, water is bitter and you cannot even buy drinking water without the approval of the Beast. Or his people. So the Beast requires you to take his mark as a symbol of worship to himself and this will allow you to conduct business. Without this mark whatever it will be , you cannot buy, nor sell, this is the way of commerce now. There is no cash, so to sell your services or to buy food, water or services you must have this mark. There is no other way.

So yes it is about money and control, but further than this it is the only way. So it is more about control of the people than just money, yes money is control, but it is the means to the end to demand that you take the mark so you can live. Without this mark society will be at the point that all commerce and trade and credit and all things cannot be conducted without this mark. So this is why the Bible tells us that to simply buy and sell will be a problem. That the ones who hold to their faith will suffer greatly.

As sneaky as it seems that technology and something like a computer chip embedded in your hand seems to make sense, I do not think this is the deal. God has warned us, he has caused the book of revelation to be written so all who read it are blessed with the knowledge that will or would be needed. So it will not be a sneak attack of a gradual situation , it will be at those times a up close and personal situation. The beast will be totally visible, arrogant and demanding. He will cause his idol to come to life and impress the people and many will use this to believe and follow the Beast. Just like the churches of today allow and accept due to the wish to get along, to not make waves and so on. So it will be in those times.

Well let me shut up, simple enough , you cannot buy or sell without the mark, whatever it will be, because the Beast and his people control all the food, all the basics of life. There cannot be trade without the mark. There will be no drinking water and you cannot obtain it without the mark.

It is a time of choice. God provides us with the knowledge of truth. It is still our own free will that will make this choice.

Man is fearful of physical death. We do not understand that there is more and better after death. So we cling to physical life. It is that inborn desire to survive. The biological wish to survive, the spirit of life placed in us by God. It is our spirit that must realize there is more and in those times if we are unfortunate enough to be in them God provides us with the signs to know his word is true.

This is so hard to explain to those who have not experienced things. It is impossible as that desire to survive is there. I died once. I drowned in 80 feet of water. We were on a mission to recover a weapon and my regulator on my scuba system malfunctioned, and I was on a free accent to the surface when around 80 feet I could not hold my breath any longer, so I just took a breath and drowned. I was scared, terrified, I did not want to die. But the body response took over, it is unvoluntary. Your body will breath. I took a breath and everything just went black and I went to sleep. I woke up in a life flight chopper to Subic Bay in the Phillipines and spent 30 hours or so in the decompression chamber on the Naval Base.

So for me death is no longer a mystery. Some forms of death are worse than others. To die by drowning is terrifying. I would think to die by burning up would be even worse. But death by being beheaded or by gunshot would be instantaneous. Or much more desirable than some other forms of death. But death does not take long, it is over quickly.

The reason I say this is in the end times, there will be no choice. The beast will try to use even your family to get a lever on your mind. They may stand your family in front of you and kill them one by one to cause you to give in.
What all need to realize is the life after this one, is so much more, that the physical life is not so important. But it is our own wish to survive and our own love for our family that we may have to overcome but showing our love to God.

But we will have the upper hand. God has told us and provided us with the knowledge that in his word the signs of these times will be fully visible. This knowledge will provide all with the faith to resist. At least all those of us who accept him.

I did not shut up well did I..........

Kit

 

[my_little_pony]

I marvel at the complications man invents to explain it all. Some of it I cannot even comprehend where it comes from .

You don't know where my explanations come from? But, I did mention where they come from ( or at least, what they are based on). If you can give me a better idea of how you missed it, I can try to clarify for you.

So we all know the end times are not here yet.

Who is "we all"? This thread? This forum? All Christians? Everyone on Earth? It's a good thing this isn't a competition, cause I'm sure I couldn't win with those kind of numbers!

Contrary to what many who wish to create fear and live in fear wish all to believe.

You did something like this earlier, where you directly quote my entire post and then you talk about the problems of "man" and "many" as a generality, as though you are not really discussing WITH me, but discussing AT me. If I'm mistaken here, please feel free to let me know.

There are isolated famines as there always has been on earth, but there is no world wide famine or scarcity of food and basics for life. So I will take this chip, just make it a shiny one.

You don't get out much, do you? Just sayin...

So it will not be a sneak attack of a gradual situation

Jesus talked about a deception so great that it would engulf the entire would with the potential to deceive even those who are faithful to God.

But, you are right. For people who are watching and practicing the values of the kingdom of Heaven, it will not be a sneak attack. For people aho are actively trying to apply Jesus' teachings about how we cannot serve two masters, there will very little sneakiness to the Mark (i.e. buying and selling).

But for people who never really bothered to take his warnings against materialism, and who we give our time to, seriously, yeah, I think there will definitely be a "sneak attack".

I'm a bit surprised you didn't comment at all on the connection I made between the spiritual lessons in the Revelation and the lessons Jesus taught in the Gospels, except, presumably, to tell me that you were confused by it, or that it frightened you.

I'm really not sure why, in either case, you would feel that way. I challenged the idea of using our time to work for money, as opposed to working for love and made a connection regarding the choice between those two "masters" listed both i the gospels and in the Revelation, but confused and scared?

Is there something confusing or scary about that? It's in Matthew 6:24-34 where Jesus talks about two masters. It's also located in Luke 16, but the luke account is interesting because directly afterwards it's followed up with insults from the pharisees because they were covetous and didn't like his teaching challenging our belief that money is the real source of all life.


BTW, there is nothing in prophecy to indicate the the fulfillment of the Mark is based on any of these other signs you mention. As a monetary process the Beast has been working on the Mark for thousands of years. From gold coins to coins of lesser value, to paper money, checks, credit cards, debit cards, smart cards (introducing the chip!) and then finally an implanted micorchip directly into the body.

The Mark (capital M) represents a line in the concrete where people will no longer be able to pretend about where their loyalty really lies. They will be forced to choose.

But the LESSON behind the Mark (i.e. our dependency on money rather than God) has been there for the last 2000 years in the form of Jesus' teachings. That's why the angel tells us that the spirit of prophecy is the teachings of Jesus. Revelation 19:10 .

One final comment on worship; we don't need to bow down, sing songs, or pray to show worship. All we need to do to show worship of the Beast is to believe that we can't do it the way Jesus said to do it.

 

[sojourn4Christ]

You are spot on, my_little_pony.

Money is the blood of the beast.

Lucifer was cast out because of the multitude of his merchandising (from which comes the word "merchant"). He was a trafficker.

There's nothing wrong with buying and selling per se; it's how we go out doing that.

Merchant: "A person whose business is buying and selling goods for profit." Webster's New World Dictionary, Third College Edition, 1988, Page 843.

2 Peter 2:3, "And through covetousness shall they with feigned words [in their law books] make merchandise of you:"

Traffic: "Commerce, trade, sale, or exchange of merchandise, bills, money, and the like. The passing of goods or commodities…. Bouvier’s Law Dictionary of 1914.

 

[my_little_pony]

hey Soj,

Thanks for sharing those thoughts.

I agree with you that there is no teaching against buying and selling. After all, Jesus did say "sell what you have, give to the poor, and THEN come follow me".

But the point about "buying and selling", in the context of the Mark is that we cannot buy or sell without money. I propose that the Mark will be a microchip implant, but in the end even that really is quite irrelevant to the lesson. Whatever form the Mark eventually takes, the point is stil about buying and selling, and so the real lesson behind the Mark is one of man's dependency on money.

That is precisely why the Beast will choose to use it. The devil doesn't care about money; why should he? His only interest in money is in how he can use it to turn people away from God.

Nearly anyone you ask today will declare, without a doubt, that we cannot live without money. In other words, we would die without out. What a perfect tool for persuading people to turn away from God. But, God is not stupid, either. It's not like the Beast somehow pulled one over on God by tricking him into cursing people who buy and sell.

God, too, is annoyed that people have come to believe that it is money which makes the world go round (rather than his transcendent power). God ALLOWS the Beast to set up this particular test, because God also wants to know who really trusts in the values of HIS kingdom (where people work for one another out of love) and who trusts the Beasts kingdom (where people force one another to pay for their help out of fear of starving to death).

The only real difference between the Mark, and what Jesus taught about money, is that the Mark represents a final cut-off line where people will no longer be able to hide behind convenient doctrines regarding who they give their time to. Whether it is Jesus saying "you cannot serve God or money" or the Revelation saying "anyone who chooses to continue using money", the lesson behind the two are identical. God or money.

 

[sojourn4Christ]

the most subtil beast

Thanks for your post. Allow me to reply in text.

But the point about "buying and selling", in the context of the Mark is that we cannot buy or sell without money. I propose that the Mark will be a microchip implant, but in the end even that really is quite irrelevant to the lesson. Whatever form the Mark eventually takes, the point is stil about buying and selling, and so the real lesson behind the Mark is one of man's dependency on money.

A good analogy would be volume measurements, e.g. gallons or liters. These are units, but units of what? Gallons of what? Dollars of what? Long ago, it used to be gold. Not now. The bankers (the "rich men of the earth," the merchants) have stolen that true value and returned to its subjects debt. Recall how virtually all the nations have high national debt; well, then, WHO is the creditor? If all the nations are in debt, WHO is holding the credit? The bankers are. They run the world now the same way they always have: they lend money they don't have, and charge high interest on it. Recall also that usury (interest) is forbidden in The Word. And they have been working tirelessly toward global control: a one world economy and currency (electronic), a one world army (UN "peacekeepers"), a one world religion, their NEW WORLD ORDER.

Initially, "money" did have true value. But we must understand that "money," as it is commonly called today, has no intrinsic value whatsoever. Today, "money" is actually debt; money is a "promisory note." When we pass those notes around, we are using a commercial instrument of the Lex Mercatoria ("the law merchant"), a private for-profit corporation.

That is precisely why the Beast will choose to use it. The devil doesn't care about money; why should he? His only interest in money is in how he can use it to turn people away from God.

The goal has always been POWER ("I will be like the Most High"), and manipulation via "money" is the vehicle.

When we all stepped into commerce, we all compromised our traditionally vested rights. You have only two absolute "unalienable rights": Life and Liberty. Everything else is conditioned on your conduct and consent. Your Life and Liberty are vested by God in Genesis 2:7. Dominion over property is conditional; this is the lesson of Adam in the garden. See also Lk 12:15 and Mt 4:8.

Just how did we all step into 'commerce'? Perhaps the easiest way to put this is: when we left the land seeking something that really never existed in the first place, except in our own minds, which can be manipulated. Now many of you will say, "We still have our farm." Not so, if it is registered in the county recorder, or if you are registered to vote, or if it has a mortgage, or if it is an asset of a trust, corporation, partnership, etc., or if it has ever been sold for commercial paper, or if its owner is receiving mail at that location. The status of the estate follows the status of its owner. This is what I mean about leaving the land. We were never to sell or compromise the land, because it is not ours: "The earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof." Psalm 24:1. See also Psalm 50:12. We were to occupy till He returns, when He comes to take back that which belongs to Him. Occupation is not buying and selling for profit, or speculating with our neighbor. The armies of the earth do not buy and sell; however, their sponsoring speculators do.

Nearly anyone you ask today will declare, without a doubt, that we cannot live without money. In other words, we would die without out.

This is not true. I existed for several years without money, outside of the worldly system of commerce. I fathered three homebirthed children who do not have any contacts with the forum state (i.e. they have no "papers" - no birth cert's, passports, etc.. They are citizens of no mean country. They are sovereign in Christ). I walked in true freedom as an ambassador of Christ and, as such, was outside the jurisdiction of the bankers who continually tried to "persuade" me via imprisonment, theft, force, character assassination, etc.

What a perfect tool for persuading people to turn away from God. But, God is not stupid, either. It's not like the Beast somehow pulled one over on God by tricking him into cursing people who buy and sell.

God, too, is annoyed that people have come to believe that it is money which makes the world go round (rather than his transcendent power). God ALLOWS the Beast to set up this particular test, because God also wants to know who really trusts in the values of HIS kingdom (where people work for one another out of love) and who trusts the Beasts kingdom (where people force one another to pay for their help out of fear of starving to death).

Yes, it is yet another test. Soon, it will become easy to tell who is truly born again, and who is not. The Word tells us the majority are hellbound.

The only real difference between the Mark, and what Jesus taught about money, is that the Mark represents a final cut-off line where people will no longer be able to hide behind convenient doctrines regarding who they give their time to.

They have always believed they are hiding. But they fool no one. One thing is certain: if a physical "mark" is taken into the body, one gives up internal control to an external source.

Whether it is Jesus saying "you cannot serve God or money" or the Revelation saying "anyone who chooses to continue using money", the lesson behind the two are identical. God or money.

Indeed. My brother has this to add:

Nearly every Christian is keenly aware that the Bible warns of a certain "mark of the beast" that must never be accepted. Yet few Christians are aware that they have already accepted government identification and licenses that are the slippery slope leading to the final "mark" of the beast.

Revelation 13:17 explains that in the end times people will not be able to "buy or sell" without "the mark, OR the name of the beast, OR the number of his name." The name and number of the beast are already an accepted part of every citizen's daily business, and wholeheartedly accepted by mainstream Christianity.

When I went to school, I learned that the spelling of a proper name begins with an upper case ("capital") letter, followed by lower case letters. Anything else is "wrong" and is, in legal terms, known as a legal fiction. If you look in your wallet/purse at every instrument that is commercial in nature (e.g. birth cert, driver license, credit/debit card, etc.), you will notice that the name is spelled in ALL CAPS, in violation of standard English grammar. You've never signed your name in ALL CAPS. So what's going on here?

The "name" of the beast is a person's name spelled in all capital letters. It is a distinct identity created by government (the beast). A state issues a driver's license to John Doe in all capital letters - JOHN DOE. The same is true of a credit card, a bank checking account and the Social Security card. The created "person" does not have the same God-given rights as the flesh and blood man or woman (you) when operating under their given Christian name.

The "number of the beast" is the government assigned number that is attached to the created "person." For example, Mr. John Doe applies for a state driver's license, and government creates JOHN DOE, #123456789. John Doe signs the license, and agrees to operate in the system of commerce as JOHN DOE, #123456789. In effect, he (or she) assumes the identity created for them by the beast.

Throughout the world today it is already extremely difficult to "buy or sell" without the created all capitals name and its assigned number as identification. A bank account, credit card, driver's license and Social Security all use the "name" and "number" of the beast. Accepting the beast's ungodly money system and surrendering your God-given rights for beast issued privileges is how you "worship the image of the beast." While the subject of how you "worship" is hotly contested by those seeking to justify their position, Romans 6:15 puts it rather succinctly:

"Know ye not that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or obedience unto righteousness?

If you study this passage, you'll see that either option is "obedience," but one path is sinful and leads to death, and the other is associated with righteousness and leads to life. While a lengthy exposition of the much distorted 13th chapter of Romans is beyond the scope of the present essay, the simple fact is this verse in Romans 6 states that one form of obedience leads to death.

The bad news is that the entire world is preparing to accept the final "mark of the beast" - the one that brings God's condemnation and eternal damnation (see Revelation 14:9). Worse yet, they will do it while quoting from the bar-coded Bibles they carry. A worldwide identification card with microprocessors and even under-the-skin microchips will enable a totally cashless - and Godless - beast society.

The United Nations is currently considering a plan proposed by Belgium's Pascal Smet for universal identification and registration of every person in the world. Mr. Smet points out that the European Union is considering a fingerprint or eye scan to identify every European. "There are no technical problems. It is only a question of will," according to Smet.

As the year 2002 began, more than 100 nations had some form of national ID system in place. In Spain an ID card is required at age 14; in Argentina at age 8; in Germany at age 16; in Belgium at age 15. Kenya requires national ID to be carried at all times by all citizens. In America, a Social Security number is required in order to receive a wage at almost any place of employment. The very concept of working for a living implicitly embodies "buying and selling" - vis a vis exchanging your hours of effort in return for a financial remuneration.

A recent poll by the Pew Research Center showed that 2/3 of Americans support the mandatory display of a national ID card on demand in order to "feel safe and secure." So-called Smart-cards, an identity card with embedded chips are already in use by 120,00 U.S. military troops, and the goal is to issue 4 million cards within two years.

This technology has already been proven by Applied Digital Systems (ADS), the inventors of the so-called digital angel. ADS holds patents on chips which are currently implanted in more than one million animals to track and identify them. The embedded chips are already in voluntary use in many humans, such as heart patients with pacemakers or artificial valves, and even knee and hip replacement patients. A chip implant is now required for all convicted sex-offenders in California.Richard Sullivan, the CEO of ADS, says the chips will shortly be in widespread use in children, the elderly and employees at secure facilities. He believes society will quickly accept the chip in place of ATM and credit cards. ADS is actively lobbying congress to force the implanting of a chip in every foreigner admitted to the US in order to identify and track them. The company expects approval from the FDA within 18 months for unlimited use of their chips in humans.

Plans for the massive databases and infrastructure needed for "the mark of the beast" system are well under way. The American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators is working to link all state driver's license databases with high-tech licenses using biometric identifiers, bar codes and computer chips. Currently in America, state and federal police authorities use the National Crime Information Center (NCIC) database for identification purposes on vehicle stops. The US Department of Justice and the General Services Administration have admitted working on a standardized national ID system based upon the state driver's license. The Air Transport Association wants a travel card/ID system with biometric identifiers.

America's War on Terrorism is spreading throughout the world. Fourteen of the nineteen terrorists that attacked America on 9/11 had forged ID papers. Obviously, standard identification papers and cards are easily forged. The desire for safety and security makes the world population willing to submit to a unified system of identification for every person in the world.

The technology is already in place, so this is the obvious solution to the "problem" of identifying the undesirable elements among us. And the beast is ready to mandate it. A facial scan or hand scan are the quickest systems yet devised, and require the least digital storage.

What is truly startling is how few Christians have actually thought through the decision as to where they will draw the line. Most just vaguely say that they will refuse to accept any chip implant. A few Christians have already publicly stated they will immediately accept any imbedded chip because Jesus "will forgive even that." These usually cite Scriptures speaking of submission to governing authorities.

Others have recognized the spiritual nature of submission - and how the decision to abide or not to abide within the edicts of the beast is precedent to any final numbering scenario. These believe that their present refusal to function within existing political and commercial parameters is crucial to recognizing where the line will ultimately be drawn. These non-conformists are already resisting on a variety of levels, including renouncement of the Social Security number and a refusal to be licensed to drive.

Vast numbers of Christians confidently believe they will be raptured before the final requirement to receive a beast sanctioned identity is implemented. The simple truth is, the "mark of the beast" system has already ensnared significant numbers of "believers" who will simply continue to readjust their rationalizations as the beast slowly but surely tightens his grip on an already undiscerning Christian church.

"And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads;

"And that no man might buy or sell, save he had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name." (Revelation 13:16, 17)

 

[Kit Carson]

You don't know where my explanations come from? But, I did mention where they come from ( or at least, what they are based on). If you can give me a better idea of how you missed it, I can try to clarify for you.



Who is "we all"? This thread? This forum? All Christians? Everyone on Earth? It's a good thing this isn't a competition, cause I'm sure I couldn't win with those kind of numbers!



You did something like this earlier, where you directly quote my entire post and then you talk about the problems of "man" and "many" as a generality, as though you are not really discussing WITH me, but discussing AT me. If I'm mistaken here, please feel free to let me know.



You don't get out much, do you? Just sayin...



Jesus talked about a deception so great that it would engulf the entire would with the potential to deceive even those who are faithful to God.

But, you are right. For people who are watching and practicing the values of the kingdom of Heaven, it will not be a sneak attack. For people aho are actively trying to apply Jesus' teachings about how we cannot serve two masters, there will very little sneakiness to the Mark (i.e. buying and selling).

But for people who never really bothered to take his warnings against materialism, and who we give our time to, seriously, yeah, I think there will definitely be a "sneak attack".

I'm a bit surprised you didn't comment at all on the connection I made between the spiritual lessons in the Revelation and the lessons Jesus taught in the Gospels, except, presumably, to tell me that you were confused by it, or that it frightened you.

I'm really not sure why, in either case, you would feel that way. I challenged the idea of using our time to work for money, as opposed to working for love and made a connection regarding the choice between those two "masters" listed both i the gospels and in the Revelation, but confused and scared?

Is there something confusing or scary about that? It's in Matthew 6:24-34 where Jesus talks about two masters. It's also located in Luke 16, but the luke account is interesting because directly afterwards it's followed up with insults from the pharisees because they were covetous and didn't like his teaching challenging our belief that money is the real source of all life.


BTW, there is nothing in prophecy to indicate the the fulfillment of the Mark is based on any of these other signs you mention. As a monetary process the Beast has been working on the Mark for thousands of years. From gold coins to coins of lesser value, to paper money, checks, credit cards, debit cards, smart cards (introducing the chip!) and then finally an implanted micorchip directly into the body.

The Mark (capital M) represents a line in the concrete where people will no longer be able to pretend about where their loyalty really lies. They will be forced to choose.

But the LESSON behind the Mark (i.e. our dependency on money rather than God) has been there for the last 2000 years in the form of Jesus' teachings. That's why the angel tells us that the spirit of prophecy is the teachings of Jesus. Revelation 19:10 .

One final comment on worship; we don't need to bow down, sing songs, or pray to show worship. All we need to do to show worship of the Beast is to believe that we can't do it the way Jesus said to do it.

Hey:

I suppose I do not get out much :shade: See I have sunglasses. Lol!

Yes I was talking at you not to you, talking to all basically. I simply disagree with all the opinions that the Mark of the Beast will be a sneak attack and the great veil will cover our eyes. I consider the Mark to be a literal and physical mark.
There will come a time when the False Prophet and his helpers will become leaders and impress all with magic tricks and do great things and pretend to be God. The mark will be a visible and literal mark, and we will have a literal choice to accept it or not.

But that is just my opinion, and as there are about one million opinions on this subject, I can only speak what the word of God says to me. To me it means it will be a literal mark, and not a sneak attack such as a micro chip for trade at first, then later used as a Mark.

Kit

 

[my_little_pony]

The mark will be a visible and literal mark

I agree that it will be a literal mark, but there is nothing in prophecy which says it will be visible. It says it will be used for buying and selling. That is the key part which you seem to be missing in all of your explanations. Buying and selling...

Whether or not it is a "sneak" attack depends more on one's willingness to accept the implications of that, rather than some formula for how is it "supposed" to be.

Btw, probably the more significant part of your response, though, is that you've still not responded to my comments about how this correlates to what Jesus said about money. I think that speaks volumes.

------------------------------------

Today, "money" is actually debt; money is a "promisory note." When we pass those notes around, we are using a commercial instrument of the Lex Mercatoria ("the law merchant"), a private for-profit corporation.

Interesting observation. "money is debt". I feel that is probably part of the reasoning behind why people work so hard to get more of it; we all seem to feel that people owe us something.

But in the Kingdom of Heaven, it works that WE owe others; love. That's what being a servant is all about.

But, people these days say that such thinking is a pipe dream, fantasy utopia that is unrealistic and naive (note: even though I'm saying this in response to a quote from you, I am not referring specifically to you when I say "people"). If we don't demand that other people give us something for our help, how could we possibly survive? And so all life becomes this horrible rat race where our ability to feed and clothe ourselves depends on what we can squeeze out of others.

We have a lot of respectable names for it like "earning a living" and "feeding our families" and "contributing to society", etc... but in the end it's still not what Jesus said the kingdom of Heaven is really about.

This is not true. I existed for several years without money, outside of the worldly system of commerce.

Actually, I said "most". I accept that there really ARE people out there who are genuinely trying to deal with these issues, and I appreciate that you've shared a bit of your own experiences. In fact, you've genuinely piqued my curiosity and I'd like to hear MORE about your experiences. in this context.