buying and selling

[Kit Carson]

I did not say much about money as it is simply the way we live now and how things will be then.

When Jesus walked the earth he told us not to make money our master. He told a rich man to give all he had away and then he would be perfect. He instructed his disciples to not carry money or materials and to rely on the kindness of those met in their ministry travels.

It is also explained that a minister is right in expecting a living from his services, not to be arrogant and obscene with it, just to make a comfortable living.

We today most of us do much the same, we work, and gain money and we buy and we sell our service to an employer for this money .

We are not expected to give all away and sit in ashes and poverty , but to take what is granted to us and appreciate it and share some of it at times. Many in the life of today with bills and taxes and just living expenses have little to spare. It is a time of strife for many.

Unlike the times of old where most did grow crops and keep cattle, goats and the things of life, and money was a luxury more or less for the wanted things of life, not absolutely the required items, times have changed.

In the world of today, all things revolve around money. Without money you do not eat, you have no house, you have no means to live. Food and products are now controlled by large corporations, even large farms have to sell to someone and they sell to these large corporations. Many of these corporations may own and control many things from food to dish soap. As time goes on more and more we become totally reliant upon others for food and the required items of life.

Large concrete cities are born, some may have a small yard, but they cannot grow enough food to survive, and for sure they cannot have livestock. Even homes have a 70 by 100 foot lot or on average 7000 square feet minus the foot print of the home and other items.

So money is and will be the big deal in those days, as it is even now.
Without money you cannot buy food, you have no access to even seeds to grow a crop unless you have money to buy them, and if you do not have this Mark, you cannot have a job. Without a job you have no money. Without this mark you cannot sell anything including your services to an employer, you cannot buy as all things will be totally controlled by the Beast. Those who violate this command will be killed.

This is why the buy and sell is so important in relation to the results of the Mark of the Beast.

Money even today controls all walks of life , from the computer internet access to the food you buy at the grocery store. This is the way of normal life for most in the world of today. So if you cannot have money or some way to trade you have nothing and will starve and die, have no home, no job, and no hope.

The only hope will be to stop, and pray to God to make things bearable, and or hope some avenue is open, but many will simply be killed for refusal to take this Mark.

So it will be a time of choice. With great incentive to take the Mark but with grave consequences if one does.

As I am not one of the 144K, I know that any requirement to take a Mark will be false. No matter how much magic I am shown, I will or would know it is not the real God but the Beast pulling the veil over my eyes.

Black Markets and survival also requires stealing from those who have, and even to kill to keep the food or products, so this in itself would lead to more sin. Those like myself who have some larger areas of land, could grow crops, and so on , even keep livestock, but I would have to kill to retain them as people in stress, will act to survive.

Like I say, it will be a time of choice. And a terrible time to be alive.

Kit

 

[sojourn4Christ]

Walk by faith, not sight. Don't worry.

If we don't demand that other people give us something for our help, how could we possibly survive? And so all life becomes this horrible rat race where our ability to feed and clothe ourselves depends on what we can squeeze out of others.

Rather, we are to endeavor to be like Jesus who freely gave without expectation of return. We have no right to "demand" anything, but to love one another and thus fulfill the whole of the law. The Word tells us not to worry about our food or clothing:

Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? ...Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. (Matt 6:24-34)

I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread. He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed. Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for evermore. (Psalm 37:25-27)

We are commanded not to worry (it is a sin to worry); we have the Lord's promise; we have the Lord's word.

We have a lot of respectable names for it like "earning a living" and "feeding our families" and "contributing to society", etc... but in the end it's still not what Jesus said the kingdom of Heaven is really about.

Indeed. In reality, the majority are partakers in a worldly protection racket based in vain deceit.

I don't "earn a living," as my Father in heaven gives me my life, my living, freely. It is in him in whom I "live, move, and have my being" (Act 17:28). And I don't worry about feeding [my family]," as the Lord is faithful in that regard. And as far as "contributing to society;" society is where the problem is. Just as where "the world" is where the problem is, and partaking of the things of the world.

Did Christ deal with it? No. He avoided it. Matthew 8:20, "And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." That doesn't mean you don't have a bed where you sleep, that simply means you do not attach yourself to those things. There's nothing wrong with having a house, it's the way you go about aquiring the house. Are you doing it according to the ways of the Lord, or are you doing it according to the ways of the world? Those aren't easy answers to give, but if you continue to walk by faith and follow the ways of the Lord, He will provide those things for you and you don't have to go chasing them by entering into contracts with others.

Did the apostles deal with it? No. 1 Corinthians 4:11, "Even unto this present hour...we have no certain dwellingplace." The apostle Paul was homeless too! The apostle Paul did not "own" a house, he rented a house from time to time, depending on where he happened to be sojourning at the time (Acts 28:30)

"Society" is a creation of man. "Contracts" are mostly a creation of man. In Black's Law Dictionary, 6th edition, page 322, a contract is defined as "a promise or a set of promises constituting an agreement between the parties that gives each a legal duty to the other." This is wrong. Why? Here are two reasons.

Firstly, because our Covenant (agreement) is with God (not with the heathen), and the agreements we have with others should not conflict with that. And secondly, because we are not to make promises with anyone. Nobody knows what tomorrow will bring, and to think about making a promise to do something tomorrow, when only God Himself knows what tomorrow will bring, is evil.

Matthew 6:34, "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."
Every day brings its own cares; and to anticipate tomorrow is only to double them. He who neglects the present for the future is acting opposite to the order of God, his own interest, and to every dictate of sound wisdom. We must not perplex ourselves inordinately about future events, because every day brings along with it its own burden of cares and grievances

So, how do you start walking out of society? How do we avoid contracts? A beginning is

Romans 13:8, "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another:"

That's how you start walking out of society, by owing no man anything. Contracts bind you to owe man something. Contracts are for the heathen because they don't love one another, nor trust one another. They're always at war with each other. And when you join yourself to the world, and make obligations to the world, you must become part of the world to meet those obligations. We must go back to the old paths and walk in the good way.

Jeremiah 6:16, "Thus saith the LORD…ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls."`
Bondservants of Christ cannot enter into any contracts which would make us slaves to the heathen.

Servitude: The subjection of one person to another is a purely personal servitude; if it exists in the right of property which a person exercises over another, it is slavery. When the subjection of one person to another is not slavery, it consists simply in the right of requiring of another what he is bound to do, or not to do; this right arises from all kinds of contracts or quasi contracts. Bouvier's Law Dictionary, 1856, Lois des Bat. P. 1, c. 1, art. 1.

So when you enter into a contract with the heathen, you become bound to that heathen; it creates a legal duty. When the bondmen of Christ make "arrangements" with one another, we ought to phrase our words like, "I'll see you next month, by God's Grace," or, "Lord Willing, I'll do this for you tomorrow."

James 4:13-15, "...ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow...For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that."

This way, we do not make any "obligations" that we cannot keep if something unforeseen happens, such as a sickness, an emergency, etc. We don't know what tomorrow will bring, and we don't know what the Lord has in store for us. Therefore, we should express promises in this way:

Acts 18:21, "...but I will return again unto you, if God will..."

1 Corinthians 4:19, "But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will,"

1 Corinthians 16:7, "For I will not see you now by the way; but I trust to tarry a while with you, if the Lord permit."

Romans 1:10, "Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you."

Romans 15:32, "That I may come unto you with joy by the will of God, and may with you be refreshed."

Hebrews 6:3, "And this will we do, if God permit."

Basically, it's a question of authority; who do you look to for the authority to do the things you do? Who do you belong to? Which Kingdom do you walk in? Do you walk in man's kingdom or God's Kingdom? You have to evidence that you are part of His Kingdom by the words that come out of your mouth. You can say you're a Christian all day long and you love Jesus, but if you partake of the things of the world then you belong to the world! And the world will take jurisdiction over you. Jesus told us we cannot serve two masters, and if you are serving two masters, that second master will have jurisdiction over you.

And finally, a question on this quote of Kit Carson's:

Black Markets and survival also requires stealing from those who have, and even to kill to keep the food or products, so this in itself would lead to more sin.

When you say "survival," are you talking about the sin of a desperate act in response to, for example, hunger? Or are you talking about the concept of survivalism? The two terms are not synonymous, and survivalism is scriptural.

 

[my_little_pony]

Hi Kit,

We are not expected to give all away and sit in ashes and poverty

Well, there are two parts to this. Can we break it down into more manageable topics?

1. We are not expected to give all away.

On the contrary, Jesus said A LOT about forsaking all personal ownership and sharing all things in common. In fact, it's a very common theme all throughout the NT. I posted a list earlier, I think on page 2 or 3, listing quite a few contextual verses showing this. I can do it again if you'd like...

2. We are not expected to sit down in ashes.

This part seems more like a "rediculous exaggeration". Sitting in ashes has nothing to do with forsaking all. They COULD be related in some context, but what you've suggested here is that they are one and the same.

Also, you've don't that thing again where you assume that an unspecificed number of people agree with your position, by saying "we" without saying who the "we" is. For all we know, you could be speaking on behalf of every Christian in the world, in which case you have probably assumed too much in trying to make your point.

Further, do you see a problem with someone sitting down in ashes if he/she felt that is what God wanted? You make it sound like a ridiculous waste of time.


-----------------------------------------------

Hey Soj,

I was hoping to hear a bit more of your testimony. If you feel it's a bit too private for the general public I'm fine to share about it in pm. And if not, well that's okay too.

Thanks for posting those verses from Matthew about who we work for, as well as the verses about Jesus and the apostles (at least sometimes) not having a place to even sleep at night.

I feel they are very relevant to the topic. I was chatting with someone about this on a different forum and he blurted out " And your teaching opens the door to people thinking money is the mark of the beast when everyone uses money so that makes everyone doomed. Money in itself is not the mark of the beast."

Without money, everyone is doomed. It's what I've been saying, that most people have come to believe that money is the source of life. What a slap in the face to God.

I understand that money itself is not evil; it's just inanimate objects. But money represents a motivation for WHY people work and it is that motivation that Jesus was challenging in his teaching about not being able to serve two masters.

In the Kingdom of Heaven they work for love and not because they feel they will die without money. In the "Lord's prayer" Jesus said we should pray, "thy will be done on Earth, as it is in Heaven".

We can't pray that prayer if we are busy promoting the values of the systems of man, where we only help one another because we expect payment for it.

It's also why Jesus talked about being born again. It's not just a "state of being" or a religious experience. It's about an entire lifestyle change where we start living by a completely new set of values that spread right across the board.

Working for love vs working for money is one example of that.

 

[Kit Carson]

Hi Kit,



Well, there are two parts to this. Can we break it down into more manageable topics?

1. We are not expected to give all away.

On the contrary, Jesus said A LOT about forsaking all personal ownership and sharing all things in common. In fact, it's a very common theme all throughout the NT. I posted a list earlier, I think on page 2 or 3, listing quite a few contextual verses showing this. I can do it again if you'd like...

2. We are not expected to sit down in ashes.

This part seems more like a "rediculous exaggeration". Sitting in ashes has nothing to do with forsaking all. They COULD be related in some context, but what you've suggested here is that they are one and the same.

Also, you've don't that thing again where you assume that an unspecificed number of people agree with your position, by saying "we" without saying who the "we" is. For all we know, you could be speaking on behalf of every Christian in the world, in which case you have probably assumed too much in trying to make your point.

Further, do you see a problem with someone sitting down in ashes if he/she felt that is what God wanted? You make it sound like a ridiculous waste of time.


-----------------------------------------------

Hey Soj,

I was hoping to hear a bit more of your testimony. If you feel it's a bit too private for the general public I'm fine to share about it in pm. And if not, well that's okay too.

Thanks for posting those verses from Matthew about who we work for, as well as the verses about Jesus and the apostles (at least sometimes) not having a place to even sleep at night.

I feel they are very relevant to the topic. I was chatting with someone about this on a different forum and he blurted out " And your teaching opens the door to people thinking money is the mark of the beast when everyone uses money so that makes everyone doomed. Money in itself is not the mark of the beast."

Without money, everyone is doomed. It's what I've been saying, that most people have come to believe that money is the source of life. What a slap in the face to God.

I understand that money itself is not evil; it's just inanimate objects. But money represents a motivation for WHY people work and it is that motivation that Jesus was challenging in his teaching about not being able to serve two masters.

In the Kingdom of Heaven they work for love and not because they feel they will die without money. In the "Lord's prayer" Jesus said we should pray, "thy will be done on Earth, as it is in Heaven".

We can't pray that prayer if we are busy promoting the values of the systems of man, where we only help one another because we expect payment for it.

It's also why Jesus talked about being born again. It's not just a "state of being" or a religious experience. It's about an entire lifestyle change where we start living by a completely new set of values that spread right across the board.

Working for love vs working for money is one example of that.

I am hard to understand sometimes as I simply speak from the heart. I rarely quote little scriptures, I look at the whole picture.

So when I give to someone, it is more to me , myself saying Thanks to God for what he has given me. To share or do something nice is actually showing thanks to God.

God to me, wishes us to enjoy life, to laugh, and what he may or may not give us and the status of life he may or may not put us into we are to enjoy it. I am not rich by any means, but I feel rich as all needs are met, and I really do not wish much, if I had a lot of money I would most likely give a lot of it away, actually not give money but do the right thing with it and not give people the opportunity to abuse or waste the money.

So to some people he does grant them great riches, and what Jesus was trying to say when he told the rich man to go and sell all, and he would be perfect, was a teaching parable, he was trying to teach him to not be arrogant, to help others and so on.

Such as the bible says in Timothy 6: 17 to 19. It is okay to make a good living, and to enjoy life and some must do so or there would be no one to help the poor. If all were poor, who would help the poor?

I see so many attack others over money. They even attack the preachers, and I agree with lots of this, but the honest everyday minister, hey he deserves a good living and to be comfortable, as do all of those of us who are also granted a good living. It is just that we are not to be arrogant, selfish and unconcerned with those who do need help.

Jesus was simply saying, when rich, your eyes are blinded by arrogance and selfishness, and the desire to make even more money.

So if God does provide for me, with a living and a bit more than basic needs, I will enjoy life and tell him Thank You!!! I got myself some new fishing stuff today, and I told God thanks for that also. I even told him I hope you have someplace to go fishing in the next life, as I dearly love to go fishing. I have two frozen turkeys to carry into town tomorrow and give to the Harvest Hope Food Bank for Christmas also, so I enjoy life, smile, and also show appreciation to God for all things given.

Jesus came to enjoy life. Matthew 11:19. And he was attacked for a smile and enjoyment of a meal and just life. Even as in his mind he knew he was to die, he still enjoyed life.

You see all cannot be poor, all cannot give all away and become poor, as who would help the poor??

I am not rich but I can afford a case of food, or a couple turkeys or something to give to a family once in awhile, or if their house burns down I can go buy a couple blankets or something for them. Or if I made more than normal that month I can pay their rent for a month if they have no relatives to live with.

I have been self employed for a long time. My business failed with the housing market when it and the economy failed. I had to go to work for others for a time to stay afloat, for about a year, but I never gave up. I now am busy building a new business and although I do not make a lot of money right now, I am happy, God gave me the wisdom to manage things, and to keep the boat afloat! He did not tell me to become poor, but to get in there and fight, and enjoy life.

All I am saying is God provides for us all. It may be gone in an instant due to a tornado or something but we are to enjoy life , accept what is granted to us, and as God owns it all anyway, we are to simply be good stewards with what we have and in the process make wise choices, enjoy life and help as much as we can. But we do not have to abandon our family, not provide for them and give all away and become poor.

Kit

 

[sojourn4Christ]

Profiteering is a sin

I was hoping to hear a bit more of your testimony. If you feel it's a bit too private for the general public I'm fine to share about it in pm. And if not, well that's okay too.

No worries. While we don't cast our pearls before swine, we do overcome by the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony!

The shorter story: I was an unmarried businessman with two retail scuba stores at Hawaii, which I started from scratch and after 20+ years was the largest such retailer on my island. Been on TV, guided celebrities, etc. The jet-setting lifestyle included world cruises every few months, fornication, rec drug use, ad nauseum.

But the Lord had other plans for me. While in a long-distance adulterous relationship, I casually phoned my squeeze only to find another man with her. If you know anything about addicts (sex, alcohol, whatever), you know that addicts never give their supply away - they hide it! And here was this guy who was tapping into my supply! Well, I freaked out. I totally lost any desire to eat. I went 14 days without one morsel of food, and this while I had two stores to run, a dozen tourist hotel accounts to maintain, and instructors and students in the water daily. I had never fasted before - didn't know what fasting really was about. Night #14 comes, and I'm alone (I was a bachelor living alone - more convenient due to the parade of harlots through my place). I'm in bed, starting to weep, because I feel so hurt, my business is starting to suffer, I'm starting to have a little pity party for myself. This thing, this entity, came up to me. I couldn't see it with my eyes, but I knew it was there standing in front of me. It made my hair raise up. It was horrific. It said to me in a very cool suave voice: "Don't worry, Richard, just take yourself out and all your pain will be gone. Just kill yourself and you'll have peace." Now, I was an entrepreneur, I was a fighter. I would never normally ever think about off'ing myself. But the way this thing said it was so smooth, it actually began to sound like a reasonable solution to my "problem." When I suddenly realized that I was actually entertaining the idea, I flipped out and yelled out loud: "Jesus, if you're for real, HELP ME!" I immediately fell asleep, curled in a fetal position. That night, I had a dream in which the Lord appeared to me. I couldn't see him from the waist up because he was so bright. But he had on a glowing white robe and real rope-kind sandals. And the LOVE! We all want love, unconditional love, and we want it now, please! Well, HE is IT! [I will save the content of the dream for a later time.]

I wept for several days after the Lord showed me his heart. I asked him why is it that the majority are hellbound, and only a remnant join him in eternity. Obviously, no one would sign up for satan's program if they knew its end. I asked him how does satan do it? How does he deceive so many? And the Lord began to show me...

That was in November 1996, seems like yesterday. The Lord continues to provide me with information about the enemy's plans to this day. MUCH spiritual warfare and discernment has taken place since that time. I am a new man in Christ. All the old is passed away. There is much more to tell...

I was chatting with someone about this on a different forum and he blurted out " And your teaching opens the door to people thinking money is the mark of the beast when everyone uses money so that makes everyone doomed. Money in itself is not the mark of the beast."

Without money, everyone is doomed. It's what I've been saying, that most people have come to believe that money is the source of life. What a slap in the face to God.

...It's also why Jesus talked about being born again. It's not just a "state of being" or a religious experience. It's about an entire lifestyle change where we start living by a completely new set of values that spread right across the board.

Working for love vs working for money is one example of that.

Amen @"a completely new set of values."

Most do believe that "money is the source of life." However, “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3)

(Note: I regularly use the word "Caesar" in referring to the counterfeit government, i.e. man's god-less purported government.) If one's reaction to being told that there are faults in Caesar's statutes is to rush to defend them, it is because one cannot envision life without them. This is normal for someone who can only see one kingdom: the kingdom of this world. Yet this world is passing away, as are our own bodies. There is only one thing in life more certain than Caesar's taxes. So we are really here as a test of whether we can “see” and then choose those things that have eternal value. Are our energies devoted to laying up earthly treasures, or treasures in heaven? Are we slaves devoted to building the kingdom of this world, or are we seeking first the kingdom of God? We cannot even know where to begin unless we can see God's kingdom, which is the true meaning of being born again.

God in His sovereignty has provided the perfect means of testing whether we can make the distinction between the two kingdoms. Caesar has usurped God's authority, but his kingdom is built entirely with our consent and by using legal fictions. His authority over us is imaginary. We do not have to render ourselves to him unless we believe that we belong to him. Most people believe with all their heart that they do, for they cannot see the alternative. But if you know that you belong to God, along with your labor, your family, and everything else you have, then you will already have a deep-seated unease with the multitude of demands Caesar makes on you.

If this is the case, then make a list of those things that rightly belong to God but you have in ignorance given to Caesar. Then develop a plan of action for returning them to their rightful owner. This is not easy, but it is necessary. You will need to learn much more about God's Law so that you can discern what true obedience requires of you. If you trust the State to provide for your needs rather than trusting God, it should be clear which master you are serving. As no man can serve two masters, you have a choice to make. Scripture is clear that obedience to God comes at a price, and we must first count the cost. But once you can see the eternal kingdom, you will realize that any price is worth it.

Matthew 13:44, “The kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.”

I understand that money itself is not evil; it's just inanimate objects. But money represents a motivation for WHY people work and it is that motivation that Jesus was challenging in his teaching about not being able to serve two masters.

In the Kingdom of Heaven they work for love and not because they feel they will die without money. In the "Lord's prayer" Jesus said we should pray, "thy will be done on Earth, as it is in Heaven".

Indeed - HIS will, and not our own.

We can't pray that prayer if we are busy promoting the values of the systems of man, where we only help one another because we expect payment for it

.Again, back to the present worldly protection racket based in vain deceit.

 

[Kit Carson]

Rather, we are to endeavor to be like Jesus who freely gave without expectation of return. We have no right to "demand" anything, but to love one another and thus fulfill the whole of the law. The Word tells us not to worry about our food or clothing:

Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? ...Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. (Matt 6:24-34)

I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread. He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed. Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for evermore. (Psalm 37:25-27)

We are commanded not to worry (it is a sin to worry); we have the Lord's promise; we have the Lord's word.

Indeed. In reality, the majority are partakers in a worldly protection racket based in vain deceit.

I don't "earn a living," as my Father in heaven gives me my life, my living, freely. It is in him in whom I "live, move, and have my being" (Act 17:28). And I don't worry about feeding [my family]," as the Lord is faithful in that regard. And as far as "contributing to society;" society is where the problem is. Just as where "the world" is where the problem is, and partaking of the things of the world.

Did Christ deal with it? No. He avoided it. Matthew 8:20, "And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." That doesn't mean you don't have a bed where you sleep, that simply means you do not attach yourself to those things. There's nothing wrong with having a house, it's the way you go about aquiring the house. Are you doing it according to the ways of the Lord, or are you doing it according to the ways of the world? Those aren't easy answers to give, but if you continue to walk by faith and follow the ways of the Lord, He will provide those things for you and you don't have to go chasing them by entering into contracts with others.

Did the apostles deal with it? No. 1 Corinthians 4:11, "Even unto this present hour...we have no certain dwellingplace." The apostle Paul was homeless too! The apostle Paul did not "own" a house, he rented a house from time to time, depending on where he happened to be sojourning at the time (Acts 28:30)

"Society" is a creation of man. "Contracts" are mostly a creation of man. In Black's Law Dictionary, 6th edition, page 322, a contract is defined as "a promise or a set of promises constituting an agreement between the parties that gives each a legal duty to the other." This is wrong. Why? Here are two reasons.

Firstly, because our Covenant (agreement) is with God (not with the heathen), and the agreements we have with others should not conflict with that. And secondly, because we are not to make promises with anyone. Nobody knows what tomorrow will bring, and to think about making a promise to do something tomorrow, when only God Himself knows what tomorrow will bring, is evil.

Matthew 6:34, "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."
Every day brings its own cares; and to anticipate tomorrow is only to double them. He who neglects the present for the future is acting opposite to the order of God, his own interest, and to every dictate of sound wisdom. We must not perplex ourselves inordinately about future events, because every day brings along with it its own burden of cares and grievances

So, how do you start walking out of society? How do we avoid contracts? A beginning is

Romans 13:8, "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another:"

That's how you start walking out of society, by owing no man anything. Contracts bind you to owe man something. Contracts are for the heathen because they don't love one another, nor trust one another. They're always at war with each other. And when you join yourself to the world, and make obligations to the world, you must become part of the world to meet those obligations. We must go back to the old paths and walk in the good way.

Jeremiah 6:16, "Thus saith the LORD…ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls."`
Bondservants of Christ cannot enter into any contracts which would make us slaves to the heathen.

Servitude: The subjection of one person to another is a purely personal servitude; if it exists in the right of property which a person exercises over another, it is slavery. When the subjection of one person to another is not slavery, it consists simply in the right of requiring of another what he is bound to do, or not to do; this right arises from all kinds of contracts or quasi contracts. Bouvier's Law Dictionary, 1856, Lois des Bat. P. 1, c. 1, art. 1.

So when you enter into a contract with the heathen, you become bound to that heathen; it creates a legal duty. When the bondmen of Christ make "arrangements" with one another, we ought to phrase our words like, "I'll see you next month, by God's Grace," or, "Lord Willing, I'll do this for you tomorrow."

James 4:13-15, "...ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow...For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that."

This way, we do not make any "obligations" that we cannot keep if something unforeseen happens, such as a sickness, an emergency, etc. We don't know what tomorrow will bring, and we don't know what the Lord has in store for us. Therefore, we should express promises in this way:

Acts 18:21, "...but I will return again unto you, if God will..."

1 Corinthians 4:19, "But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will,"

1 Corinthians 16:7, "For I will not see you now by the way; but I trust to tarry a while with you, if the Lord permit."

Romans 1:10, "Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you."

Romans 15:32, "That I may come unto you with joy by the will of God, and may with you be refreshed."

Hebrews 6:3, "And this will we do, if God permit."

Basically, it's a question of authority; who do you look to for the authority to do the things you do? Who do you belong to? Which Kingdom do you walk in? Do you walk in man's kingdom or God's Kingdom? You have to evidence that you are part of His Kingdom by the words that come out of your mouth. You can say you're a Christian all day long and you love Jesus, but if you partake of the things of the world then you belong to the world! And the world will take jurisdiction over you. Jesus told us we cannot serve two masters, and if you are serving two masters, that second master will have jurisdiction over you.

And finally, a question on this quote of Kit Carson's:When you say "survival," are you talking about the sin of a desperate act in response to, for example, hunger? Or are you talking about the concept of survivalism? The two terms are not synonymous, and survivalism is scriptural.

The sin of a desperate act.

Say you have a load of food and I do not. I and my family and others or not, need food. So I forcefully take it from you, and may even kill you if you resist. So now I have committed sin.

These are the things that happen to those in these situations. These are the things people do to others in times of desperation. The desire to survive overcomes the desire for right. I should survive over the one who has the food, and I will kill for it if need be.

The correct way is to not do these things, to resist all, and not commit a sin to survive. It may even be a requirement to die at this point in the time of your life, you may not survive.

I was bringing to light what happens in desperate times as I know full well the actions of people in war, poor countries and the desire to survive without the guidance of God. I have seen them up close and personal. From the street urchins who run the streets to survive to the black markets in poor countries that prey on the people to grow rich. Desperate times are used by many to pursue money. So in this context money is evil. Or the source of the evil.

Note: I appreciate your open post. I also am the same and if I can use my own ignorance to help others I will. As we are told nothing is hidden, so why even try. To become honest and open is a great way.

As for the money thing, we are in a different age. Society requires things simply due to its very nature. The world is highly populated now and the ways and times have changed, so now money is basically the way of life, without money you do not eat, you have no home and the tax man or government will take your home if you do not pay them money. So money is and has become the value of life.

We can use common sense and wisdom, to enjoy that that is granted to us, to provide for ourselves and family, college and all things, and also share with those who are in need, if we are so granted more than we need.

Life has changed, society is what it is. So we live in it and do what God places in our hearts to do.

Kit

 

[elisha]

Hi ya'll. I spent a bit of time reading the "chip666" thread until it veered off onto something about the two witnesses.

I felt a bit dissatisfied with the lack of attention people were giving to the phase "buy and sell" so I am starting this thread in the hopes that we can get into the nitty gritty of why buying and selling is connected to the Mark.

My personal feeling is that a microchip implant is the most likely candidate for being the Mark of the Beast.

I understand some people say that the Mark will not be a literal chip for buying and selling, because the ultimate point of the Mark is about worship.

I agree with the worship part, but I see a very clear link between money and worship.

Whatever medium we may be using (gold coins, paper money, cheques, smart cards, or microchip implants) the point of "buy and sell" is still the same; it represents the concept of money.

What better way to control the world, than to tell people they can no longer buy food, clothing, or pay any of the numerous bills they have? We won't even be able to sell our services for paid employment anymore.

It's obviously a very clever and effective strategy for turning people away from God. If they want all the luxuries, conveniences, and comforts that money can provide, all we need to do is accept the Beast and his system as our provider.

That is where the worship part comes in. In the gospels Jesus gave some teachings about money which are much the same as the Mark of the Beast prophecy. He said that we cannot serve two masters without hating one or the other. He said one master is God and the other master is mammon (money and the things money can buy). Matthew 6:24

The verses following go into great detail about how God does not want us to be like the pagans of the world running around thinking that they cannot live without working for money, and that we should seek God's kingdom first and then God, as our employer, will help us to get the things he knows we need.

The two teachings are extremely similar, but the Mark represents a final showdown. As it is now, Jesus told us to stop working for the purpose of making money, and to start working for his kingdom of Love, but all kinds of convenient doctrines have slipped into the church to explain why Jesus didn't really mean what he said; why it's all just a big misunderstanding.

But when the Mark comes, it will be like a kind of liberation for people who are really serious about promoting the kingdom of Heaven. No more games or masks. If our faith is in God, we will reject the Mark and start working for the Kingdom.

If our faith is in money then we will reject the Kingdom and trust the beast to provide for us.

So, what do you all think?

microchip implant?

THE MARK OF THE BEAST

"The mark of the beast" is the topic of
discussion in many circles today.
Unfortunately, it is usually misunderstood
by both layman and clergy.
Some think that Revelation 13:15-18
is a description of a MAN. who will
become a world dictator. Others prefer an
up-dated version of that theory; which
suggests that “the beast” will be a computer
system, with one main center (or
brain), which will compile information on
Christians in order to control them. These
are still traditional type predictions, cast
from the same mold as those which have
proven to be insufficient thus far.
The fact is that many dictators have
arisen, many empires have held sway over
the world; and for some time now we have
been experiencing the invasion of our privacy
and alienation from our lawful
rights, because of those who misuse computer
technology which has been extant
for years.
It makes one wonder what the
"preachers" are expecting. They are still
looking for a future “beast” while ignoring
the historical creature, who is now tightening
its strangle-hold on the throat of

Christendom. The creature described in
these verses cannot be fulfilled by any one
particular person; neither can its influence
upon people be explained or fulfilled
by a simple mark, or tatoo on one's skin.
Many have tried to over-simplify this
scripture by telling us that what we
should fear is a visible brand on our skin.
Meanwhile, the real beast has been busy
brainwashing, and manipulating our people
while, the preachers look for a tatoo.
Verse 18 tells us that the number of his
name, "666', can be understood only by
someone with "wisdom." It is spiritually
discerned; not physically. After all, it doesn't
take any wisdom to detect a literal
brand, or tatoo on someone. Anyone with
one good eye could detect it, with or without
wisdom.
Perhaps, those who prefer the popular
view of a physical mark would also have
the true followers of Christ marked by a
brand in the forehead spelling the
Father's name, according to Revelation
14:1.
Speculation on this "mark" is rampant
today. Every bookstand has one, two, or
more books, warning Christians against a
physical mark, and giving various
descriptions of how it will appear. The reason
for such broad, spectacular speculation
seems to involve two elements:
1) Many self-appointed prophets have
predicted certain things concerning this

prophecy. They and their supporters are
frantically turning over every rock in
quest of something that will fit; and, thus,
fulfill THEIR rendition of that prophecy.
They desperately need to find it in just the
way that they predicted. Otherwise they
risk losing credibility, and resulting damage
to their livelihood (flock-fleecing). All
is at stake for them!
2) Since the majority of the people in
Christendom have been innoculated with
this unfortunate doctrine, and subsequently-
learned to FEAR some physical
mark, our enemies are now using that
fear to their own advantage. The internationalists
are actually using variations of
the number "666" in order to spite and
intimidate Christians.. They know what
scares most Christians, so they use it for
that purpose. The fact is that we
Christians have been fooled because of the
lack of accurate Biblical teaching.
This BEAST power has been extant for
many years, already. God is calling us to
"come out of her!" God's plagues are
falling upon Babylon, and we see her suffering
greatly in both areas of power:
economy and religion. We have known for
some time that regardless of any mark
upon your physical body, one cannot live
in our society today and be exempt from
the influence of this beast power.
Therefore, THE "BEAST" HAS
POWER OVER PEOPLE THROUGH
DECEPTION AND MIND CONTROL,
RATHER THAN BY BRANDING US AS
CATTLE. The reference to the mark being
"in the right hand, or in the forehead," as
the Bible relates, simply means WHAT
WE DO (right hand), and WHAT WE
BELIEVE (forehead). If we have been
deceived by "the beast," it will be evidenced
by our beliefs, and our actions.
Thus are we marked!
This "beast" is made up of COMPONENTS

which are listed in Revelation
13:1-3, and 17:7-14. IT IS A COMPLEX
CREATURE! It is not one man; it is not
one man's government; it is not one
church! According to the scripture it is
"mountains" (nations), "kings," "kingdoms,"
etc. And it is controled (ridden) by
a woman (Babylon). This picture presents
a composite "beast," made up of many
anti-Christ governments, rulers, kings,
and kingdoms; which we can trace down
through history, as they have had their
turn at world power under the guidance of
that ancient Queen of Paganism....
.Babylon.
The portrayed contrast is MAN'S
GOVERNMENT against GOD'S GOVERNMENT.
Man's government follows
Babylonian rules, as shown by the vision
of kingdoms controled by the harlot. God's
government: which follows God's rules, is
depicted in chapter 19:1-10. These two
systems are opposed to each other; man' s
way . . . and God's way.
These world systems, or developements
of state (called a "beast" in the
Bible) have always been comprised of
many people; some of which have "the
mark," while some don't. Those having
"the mark" are the ones who support (worship)
the ungodly systems. They are
either wicked, and/or decieved people who
worship SELF instead of JESUS, and
thus, are led to support the, beast system.
Today, we see this, in part, as the impetus
behind the religion of HUMANISM, which
is, strangely enough, commensurate to
the state religion behind COMMUNISM.
The common denominator behind all
paganisms is THE WORSHIP OF SELF,
as explained in Romans 1:23-25. The
humber, "666" designates DEIFIED
SELF. Six is considered to be the number
of man (self); three is considered to be the
number of deity; THREE SIXES (666) IS

THE NUMBER OF DEIFIED SELF! That
describes Humanism as it has been
taught for centuries, under various titles:
in Egypt, in Babylon, in the Talmud (the
Jewish book of law), in Communism and
in various other Eastern mystic religion's,
most of which are now being propagated
in the western world, and America.
This same beast forced the "Woman"
(Israel) to flee across the Atlantic, from
Europe, some three centuries ago, as illustrated-
symbolically in Revelation 12.
Then as she gave birth to the new nation
of America (called “the man child” in verses
5 and 13), she found protection and
rest on these shores (called "the wilderness"),
away from the serpent (beast).
Thus, our forefathers found sanctuary
here in Nqrth America, away from the
beast's religious and financial oppression.

Israel was protected from this beast for
several years after coming to this new
country in the 1600's, but it (the beast)
was finally successful in getting a foothold
here, and is now attempting to put us
unto complete subjection.
This beast is NOT A MAN; it is a system,
or scheme devised by man. It is man
attempting to usurp the throne of God. It
is SELF trying to be God, manifested
through SELFISH, pagan ideology and
government. It is not one man, nor is it
one man's government! It is simply the
state of affairs, and type of society with
which we end up when we follow man
instead of Israel's God.

 

[sojourn4Christ]

exchanging the truth for lies

Say you have a load of food and I do not. I and my family and others or not, need food. So I forcefully take it from you, and may even kill you if you resist. So now I have committed sin.

These are the things that happen to those in these situations. These are the things people do to others in times of desperation. The desire to survive overcomes the desire for right. I should survive over the one who has the food, and I will kill for it if need be.

The correct way is to not do these things, to resist all, and not commit a sin to survive. It may even be a requirement to die at this point in the time of your life, you may not survive.

Indeed. We're not to love our life, even unto death. To die in Christ is gain. It's also quite possible that any food/supplies we possess now may be intended for others later.

As we are told nothing is hidden, so why even try. To become honest and open is a great way.

Amen!

Life has changed, society is what it is.

...but sin hasn't changed, and the fallen angel behind it is getting more desperate. There's no new thing under the sun.

...without money you do not eat,...

For several years, I sojourned without "money" - and my family and I ate very well! Of course, I have no mortgage; I owe no man anything. And for the past seven years to the present, I have not paid a cent for rent.

...you have no home and the tax man or government will take your home if you do not pay them money.

It was never truly "your" house in the first instance. If it's mortgaged (morte = death; gage = agreement, so mortgage = death pledge), Caesar maintains an equity interest. If you pay off the mortgage after 15 or 30 years of bondage, you're still only listed as "tenant" on the deed and not "owner." Miss one property tax payment and you'll find out rather quickly who really owns it. (Look at "mortgage" in the book of Nehemiah to see the consequences e.g. children being sold to satisfy debt.). And you signed on voluntarily...

Let's look at the difference between a home and a house. You will find the word home in Scripture, but it is not a noun, it is an adjective.

2 Samuel 17:23, "...and gat him home to his house, to his city." ​

Notice this verse is describing something in general (home), and then gets more specific (which is in a house, which is in a city). A house and a city are not synonymous, a house can be in a city. Likewise, a home is not a house, it is something general that can be inside the house. Also, in scripture, the word "house" is always preceded by a pronoun, which is possessive (i.e. his house, my house, the house, thine house, father's house, brother's house, etc.), whereas the word 'home' is never preceded by these terms.

The following are all the verses in the entire scripture containing both the words "home" and "house" in the same verse. Notice while the word "home" is used in a general sense, the word "house" is always used in a specific, possessive sense:

Genesis 43:16, "...the ruler of his house, Bring these men home."
Genesis 43:26, "And when Joseph came home, they brought him the present which was in their hand into the house."
Deuteronomy 21:12, "Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house."
1 Samuel 18:2, "...let him go no more home to his father's house."
2 Samuel 13:7, "Then David sent home to Tamar, saying, Go now to thy brother Amnon's house."
2 Samuel 17:23, "...and gat him home to his house, to his city,"
1 Chronicles 13:13, "So David brought not the ark home...but carried it aside into the house."
Haggai 1:9, "...and when ye brought it home, I did blow upon it. Why? saith the LORD of hosts. Because of mine house."
Luke 9:61, "...but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house." ​

All the above verses show that "home" and "house" are not synonymous parts of speech. The substitution of one for the other is incorrect

When you think about it, do you not say the same thing? We say, "let's go home" but we don't say "Let's go house." Sounds funny, doesn't it? Likewise, we say "it's in his car," or "it's in the car," but we do not say, "it's in car." Because a car and a house are something specific (physical), which belong to someone, whereas a 'home' is something in general (spiritual), and does not belong to anyone specifically. This is why 'home' is never preceded with a word which designates it as someone's personal property or possession

Therefore, 'home' and 'house' are not synonymous terms. The natural man has made "home" into a noun for his deceitful purposes. Man re-defined the word 'home' to designate it as a specific, physical thing (a meaning which God never gave to it) so he may acquire jurisdiction over "the home" and its "residents."

It is imperative for the followers of Christ to learn and understand the words, such as ‘home,’ that the ‘natural men’ and ‘human beings’ have ‘incorporated’ into their ‘created’ codes, rules, and regulations. The term home within the Internal Revenue Code, § 162(a)(2), is defined as "a taxpayers principle place of business." Ellwein v. US, C.A.N.D., 778 F.2d. 506, 509.

"A person…may have his home in one town for the purpose of taxation…domicile for taxation and home are treated synonymously. Thayer v. City of Boston, 124 Mass. 147, 26 Am.Rep. 650.
​

The word 'home' is not just a newly re-defined word, it was redefined from as early as 541 A.D.!

"It is settled that there is to be considered the home of each one of us where he may have his habitation and account-books, and where he has made an establishment of his business." Maxim of Law, the Code of Justinian, 50, 16, 203 (541 A.D.). ​

Anyone who says, "Yes, I have a home" becomes known as a ‘person with a home for taxable purposes’, a ‘resident with a permanent place of business’, a ‘corporate citizen’, a ‘consumer’, etc. But the bondmen of Christ are actually "home"less (Matthew 8:20, 1 Corinthians 4:11)! This is scriptural, because we are called to be sojourners (Leviticus 25:23, 1 Chronicles 29:15, Psalms 39:12).

In Webster's New World Dictionary, Third College Edition, 1988, page 645, the term homeless means "without a permanent place of residence." ​

Today, the word "homeless" describes some bum laying in the gutter somewhere; that's not the homeless we're talking about. The world calls them "homeless," but really what they mean is they're "houseless"; they have the terms mixed up, because they have a home...it's in the gutter or wherever they happen to be sojourning. So, we can see how the natural man takes something clean and twists it and makes it very unclean, and we have to be able to discern the difference when we hear these words. Bondmen of Christ are here temporarily, we are not here permanently, indefinitely, and without change. We are all here temporarily on God’s earth. Therefore, we are transients, sojourners, or visitors; we are not residents.

And finally, elisha's previous post is spot-on. The majority have already "taken" the mark, and are hellbound.

 

[Kit Carson]

Well none of us really own anything, we simply borrow it and it is given to us for use. God owns all things.

The mark of the beast, there are so many opinions on that. I know I can find at least a dozen at any given time. Many profess to be wise and tell us what it is and how it is to be.

I am not very smart, and feel I do not need to be as God in his word caused his word to be written so all can understand. And to me it is very simple as per Revelation Chapter 13, verses 16 and 17. It simply says we at that time, whomever is alive will be solicited to receive a mark in the forehead or on the hand. That is simple for me to understand.

As for the world sneaking up on us, yes it does. Our entire society has become a sneak attack. Some things we even live with and accept to keep things on an even keel , knowing they are wrong. Or should I say we are aware of them, we totally disagree with them , we should step forward and change them, but we do not as we know we stand alone. We know to take the required actions to correct them will cause us to fall under the law of man and to be punished and become the punished ones.

Any sane person can look at the world and see all the things that have become acceptable and expected, from the lies, and deceit in our government, to forcing people out of their home in old age due to taxation, to crime , to the acceptance of sexual sins, and the list is endless.

But you know it has been so since God created us, all people and all nations in the past have done exactly as we are doing now. It eventually gets to the point God does act.

May God have mercy on us all, may he grant us the wisdom and the love for him, to stand alone from the world, may he grant us mercy for wishing to cling to life and protect our family and to live and enjoy life as we wish to. May he give us the strength and wisdom to cling to him.

I myself would dearly love to correct many things, but much of it is beyond what I can do as one person, and the world is hell bent on doing it their way, at the moment we can sort it all our and pick and choose how to live, but it will become in the future a case where much more than this mark will be required to live . I once held a job in government, it had a good wage and a retirement benefit and so on, but I had to sell my soul to be in that job, I had to accept and look the other way. So I refused to sell my soul and become a product of the corrupt system. We, I, our family has done fine, God provided for us. In spite of the world.

I would surely love to correct much of it. But God says I must endure. That I am not perfect myself, and have much to learn. He has shown me that to make the right choice is sometimes a choice to suffer more than what we would wish to suffer at that time, but teaches me it always works out.

I simply view the bible as the basic truth of God. I see in it some things that are tradition, culture, but sanctioned by God for those times, but it is the basic truth of all things. It speaks to us very simply, it is not required to wonder and to be confused. That is not Gods intent. It means what it means.

I saw a demon once, it had two heads, actually one head but two faces, it had the head of a lion and the face of a man. These things are real, they are not imaginary and John the one who wrote the book of revelation was not on an acid trip. Some things do exist that we do not understand. The beings Ezekiel saw were real also, it is just that we do not understand them.

Kit

 

[my_little_pony]

hi Kit,

I am hard to understand sometimes as I simply speak from the heart. I rarely quote little scriptures

Since the "little scripture" I quoted was from Jesus, and you are responding directly to what I quoted, I assume the "little scripture" you rarely quote is "little scriptures" about what Jesus said.. Once again, I think that speaks volumes.

but I feel rich as all needs are met, and I really do not wish much, if I had a lot of money I would most likely give a lot of it away, actually not give money but do the right thing with it and not give people the opportunity to abuse or waste the money.

As noble as the narration of your good intentions regarding money (if only you had as much as you'd like to be able to give to make that narration a reality) make you out to be, the point is that you are still not addressing what Jesus said about money.

He NEVER, EVER, not even ONCE, in all the gospels, taught that we should work for money so that we can use it to help people.

That being the case, why in the world would a Christian suggest otherwise, if money is NOT the purpose for why he/she helps others?

So to some people he does grant them great riches, and what Jesus was trying to say when he told the rich man to go and sell all, and he would be perfect, was a teaching parable, he was trying to teach him to not be arrogant, to help others and so on.

Well, that interpretation sounds kinda good, but it's still wrong. The "rich young ruler" asked Jesus a question. Jesus answered the question with plain speech. There was no parable. The question was "how do I get eternal life". Jesus answered, sell what you have, give to the poor, and come follow me. The "rich young ruler" decided that he didn't really want eternal life, because he could not let go of his material possessions.

Jesus said much the same thing in many other parts of the gospels. This thing about how materialism was a personal problem of the "rich young ruler" only, is nothing more than a convenient doctrine people point to and say, "yeah Jesus said that, but I'm not rich so the lesson doesn't apply to me". Nothing more than convenience.

Such as the bible says in timothy 6 17 to 19. It is okay to make a good living

Lest anyone be confused, here is what the verses actually say.

1TIM 6:17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;

1TIM 6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

1TIM 6:19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

Kit says this admonishment from Paul against getting sucked into "uncertain riches" is ACTUALLY teaching people that they should "make a good living", which, in worldly terms, means to demand payment for our help, which payment we use to "live" (i.e. make a living).

It's totally opposite to the entire context of the verse and what the verse actually says. Do not trust in riches, precisely BECAUSE they do not save us, (i.e uncertain). RATHER, we should be trusting in working for love (i.e. rich in good works), which works are what actually gives us our foundation for eternal life.

In other words, working for money is a false foundation, but working for love is the real rock of Heaven that we should be building on.

How dishonest of Kit to claim that Paul was preaching profits rather than faith.

and to enjoy life and some must do so or there would be no one to help the poor. If all were poor, who would help the poor?

In other words, if we didn't put our faith in working for money, then how could we help the poor? Remember Judas and the woman pour perfume on Jesus' feet? Judas made a similar claim, that they needed money to help the poor, but Jesus seemed to have a problem with that logic,because he said "the poor will always be with you".

Whether we have money or not, we should still be able to help the poor, even if it's just giving our time.

But that's not really what kit is interested in, is it? Money is the issue here. Provision. Food. Clothing. Shelter. The poor just become a convenient reason to justify our working to maintain our desire for all those other things; as long as we dutifully give a "tithe" to the poor, we have no one to answer to for our service to mammon...

But, that is NOT the way Jesus did it himself, nor the way he taught his followers to do it.

I see so many attack others over money

Do you feel attacked, Kit? Since you are quoting me and responding to me, I feel I am reasonable in assuming you are referring to me.

How did I attack you regarding money? What did I say that makes you feel attacked? Please do feel free to quote me. Otherwise, I wonder why you'd bother making such accusations...

but the honest everyday minister, hey he deserves a good living and to be comfortable, as do all of those of us who are also granted a good living. It is just that we are not to be arrogant, selfish and unconcerned with those who do need help.

What a total mess of contradictions! What's the point of clarifying that the minister is "honest"? Are you assuming that people here just automatically assume mention of ministers equate to dishonesty? What other reason could you have for bringing it up?

He "deserves" a "good living"? What do you mean by deserves? Do people owe him something because he is a minister? If people stopped sharing with him, would he have the right to stop ministering?

What is a "good living" according to your western standards? Can you give us some examples of what a "Good living" is and what it costs? What does the honest minister do if he feels he is not getting the "good living" that he "deserves"?

So if God does provide for me, with a living and a bit more than basic needs, I will enjoy life and tell him Thank You!!!

But the whole point of working for money is that you don't need God. SURE, I know, i know you can say "but it IS god who provides for me" and you can cut your own guts out claiming it's true...

But in the end Atheists do the same thing, and they have no faith in God. The only real difference between atheists who work to get money to support themsleves, and Christians who work to get money to support themselves, is what each one claims to be their motivation.

Name it and claim it. What a shallow faith. Imagine meshach, shadrach, and abednego bowing down to the statue, all the while claiming "in their heart" that they were really bowing down to the God of Israel.

You see all cannot be poor, all cannot give all away and become poor, as who would help the poor?

This is probably the most misguided part of your entire post. I really am shocked.

If everyone was "poor" there would be no poor, and if everyone was "rich" there would be no rich. What I see from you here is the classic rich man's attitude justifying your superior lifestyle on the basis that the poor "need" you to be better off than them, because, without your superior generosity, how could they possibly survive? How disgusting. It's NOTHING like what Jesus taught. NOT. ONE. BIT.

Anyway, I've only made it halfway through one of kits posts and I feel like I've said more than enough to indicate where Kit is really coming from.

Kit, I don't have anything against you personally, but really, think about how your arguments either conform or contrast to what Jesus said, before you post another response to me.

 

[my_little_pony]

Hi Soj,

Thanks for sharing that story; it was quite personal! I didn't expect it. Good for you for coming through it.

If one's reaction to being told that there are faults in Caesar's statutes is to rush to defend them, it is because one cannot envision life without them.

Fantastic observation!

Are our energies devoted to laying up earthly treasures, or treasures in heaven? Are we slaves devoted to building the kingdom of this world, or are we seeking first the kingdom of God? We cannot even know where to begin unless we can see God's kingdom, which is the true meaning of being born again.

Again, fantastic observation. I think the problem is "food", "clothing", and "shelter". People see these things as the most basic necessities and so it sounds so totally ridiculous and unbelievable to imagine a world where we are NOT motivated to work for even these most basic things (as opposed to just working for love).

Whenever this issue of working for love vs money comes up, the most basic question, in one way or another, is "how will we get the basics if we worked for love"? It's exactly the kind of anxious worry Jesus told us NOT to stop us from stepping out in faith, but in the end the desire to eat is just too strong for most people.

Of course, it's not like Jesus is asking people everywhere to starve to death. He did say that God will provide for anyone who steps out in faith in him, but people can't believe that he really will. They can see a paycheck, but they can't see God and so paychecks are the obvious winner to the "rational" systemite.

Caesar has usurped God's authority, but his kingdom is built entirely with our consent and by using legal fictions. His authority over us is imaginary. We do not have to render ourselves to him unless we believe that we belong to him.

Very good! For anyone who many not understand where Soj is coming from, he is quoting Jesus when he said "render to Ceaser what belongs to Ceaser and to God what belongs to God".

Most people view this and they only see the part "Render to Ceaser what belongs to Ceaser" and they feel comforted that Jesus really is justifying loyalty to Ceaser (i.e. working for money). They feel relief at such a convenient doctrine.

But God isn't stupid. The second part says "render to god what belongs to God". After we've given to God what belongs to him, what is left for Ceaser? NOTHING.

That's the whole point of the teaching. Because God is not looking for robots, he gives people a chance to choose. People who are loyal to Ceaser will see a convenient loophole. People who are loyal to God will see yet another message about working for love vs working for money. Pure genius.

 

[my_little_pony]

Hey elisha,

I noticed in your long post you didn't mention anything about buying and selling, even once. (I even did a search for the words in your post, in case I misread it).

Why is that? Your post starts off purporting to be about the Mark of the beast, and yet you left out the most significant part; what the Bible itself claims is the entire purpose of the Mark; buying and selling.

There is no indication in the Bible that the Mark will be visible, nor that the seal on the forheads of the 144k will be visible. In either case, it does not NEED to be visible to still fulfill it's purpose.

The point of suggesting that the mark will be a microchip implant is because microchip implants are FAST becoming the new system of currency. Banks around the world are promoting it furiously, in the form of microchips on smart cards, the obvious next step is to take the chip off the card and put it into people.

There are businesses around the world which are already employing this method for security, health and financial reasons.

Phone banking is EXPLODING in Kenya, a country which is largely regarded as a prime example of why the Mark could not come in the form of some technological advancement, because poor, third-world countries don't have the infrastructure necessary.

And yet, old woman in rural villages have access to mobile banking via cell phones that westerners in the biggest American cities have yet to embrace. (it's called M-pesa if you want to look it up).

It is man's dependency on money vs his dependency on God that is being questioned, both in the Mark of the Beast prophecy AND Jesus' teachings in the gospels. It's just so amazing that people keep missing it, over and over again.

Buy and sell. Buy and sell Buy and sell. That's what the scripture says, and yet people steadfastly choose to ignore that or shrug it off, as though it is incidental to some other REALLY important issue.

Yet, when we challenge people's faith in working for money, suddenly they have 1001 reasons for why they couldn't live without it...

 

[sojourn4Christ]

the image of the beast

We know to take the required actions to correct them will cause us to fall under the law of man and to be punished and become the punished ones.

The way that one "fall under the law of man" is if one partakes of man's benefits. Caesar is always touting the benefits, but much deception is employed concerning the duties/obligations attached to those benefits. And the majority all sign on voluntarily, and that is where the spiritual transference takes place. For example, satan gains nothing if he puts a gun to your head and says "Worship me!." Any court in the land, as well as God's Law, acknowledges that any confession or contract signed under duress, under force or coercion, is null and void. Rather, the spiritual transference takes place when one willingly, voluntarily aligns himself with that choice.

I myself would dearly love to correct many things, but much of it is beyond what I can do as one person, and the world is hell bent on doing it their way, at the moment we can sort it all our and pick and choose how to live, but it will become in the future a case where much more than this mark will be required to live . I once held a job in government, it had a good wage and a retirement benefit and so on, but I had to sell my soul to be in that job, I had to accept and look the other way. So I refused to sell my soul and become a product of the corrupt system. We, I, our family has done fine, God provided for us. In spite of the world.

Indeed. It's all about making the right choices. But the problem is that the majority do not know what the right choices are, their minds having been blinded by the god of this world.The born again believer is not to be ignorant of satan's devices, nor is he to walk as a politically correct wimp, but to move in Truth and boldness.

I saw a demon once... Some things do exist that we do not understand. The beings Ezekiel saw were real also, it is just that we do not understand them.

Too bad that seeing doesn't result in faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. In any case, ask the Lord for the understanding, but also be aware that he may give it to you!

He NEVER, EVER, not even ONCE, in all the gospels, taught that we should work for money so that we can use it to help people.

This is true. The present monetary system is hatched from the pit.

The "rich young ruler" decided that he didn't really want eternal life, because he could not let go of his material possessions.

I believe the "rich young ruler" did indeed want eternal life, but he wanted his stuff more.

In other words, if we didn't put our faith in working for money, then how could we help the poor?

That is a description of the sin of presumption.

First of all, God does not require us to sin in one of His Laws (entering into a covenant with the heathen, and being unequally yoked with them) in order to exercise His Will. If it's His Will we do something, and we feel we must break one of his laws in order to do His Will, then we better ask ourselves, "Is it really His Will I am doing, or my own?"

Secondly, let me ask you a question. Can mere man thwart God's Will? Of course not. If he can, that would mean man is sovereign over God, and God is helpless. So, knowing man cannot thwart God's Will, one should not worry that man will prevent you from exercising God's Will! If you fear that you won't be able to continue doing God's Will if you lose your stuff, then you are saying man is more powerful than God! If man does prevent you from doing what you thought was God's Will, then maybe that's God's way of telling you it was not His Will in the first place, and he may be directing you to a different calling.

Some people are not willing to lose "their" stuff for the Lord's sake, but scripture does tell us that we will be persecuted for standing in the Truth (Matthew 5:10-12; 10:22; 24:9, Mark 13:13, Luke 21:17, John 15:20). We will be persecuted, but it's for His purposes. Besides, who is the One who has provided you with that vessel? Yourself or God? If you are living in the Truth, you know that God has. Therefore, what makes you think that He will not provide more stuff for you? It comes down to faith, or a lack of faith.

Remember what Jesus said:

Matthew 5:40, "And if any man (i.e. cops, attorneys, etc.) will sue thee at the law (i.e. arrested and brought before the judge for placing God's Will above man's will), and take away thy coat (i.e. car, land), let him have thy cloke also."

Why does Jesus tell us to let our possessions go? Because those who want "their" things back would be coveting! And coveting may prevent one from having eternal life! Look at this question that was asked to Jesus by a wealthy man:

Matthew 19:16, "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?"

Then Jesus repeated some of God's Commandments. The man said he had kept all of them. Then Jesus told the man he must be willing to give up his possessions also (verse 21).

Matthew 19:22, "But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions."

That man refused to let go of his possessions, and he left Jesus! He could not be part of the Kingdom if he was not willing to let go of his possessions! Why? Because Christ's kingdom is spiritual, not physical. God will supply our physical needs (Matthew 6:31-33, Luke 12:22-31, Philippians 4:19, Psalms 34:10). That man had no faith that God would supply his needs, but he wanted to put that faith in his current possessions...just in case God didn't keep his promise to supply him with his needs. After all, he may have been thinking to himself, "Why put faith in God to supply my needs when I already have the things I need? Why should I risk losing them? I like my physical possessions." But when the rich man left, Jesus told his audience:

Matthew 19:23-24, "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

Let this be a warning to those who are not willing to part with their possessions. For those who would rather covet "their" vessel and keep it, rather than risk losing it for righteousness sake, then you may want to think about this; Caesar and his swarms of officers can take "your" vessel away from you for any reason they want. Would you rather have protection from Caesar (which means you must forsake the Father), or would you rather have protection from Almighty God (by using Him as a shield and obeying His Law)? He is truly a more powerful shield than Caesar and his codes, rules, and regulations.

If you do lose your possessions because of righteousness sake, we are not to have any animosity towards those who steal from us, but we are to forgive them:

Mark 11:26, "But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses."

This is where the Peace of Christ comes in. No matter what man does to us, we will always have the assurance that God will take care of our needs.

...but the honest everyday minister, hey he deserves a good living and to be comfortable, as do all of those of us who are also granted a good living.

NONE of us "deserve" anything but to be cast into the pit. And actually, it is the flock who is to support its pastor - and not some salary/retirement package.

I think the problem is "food", "clothing", and "shelter". People see these things as the most basic necessities and so it sounds so totally ridiculous and unbelievable to imagine a world where we are NOT motivated to work for even these most basic things (as opposed to just working for love).

So true. But we also know that the Lord tells us specifically not to worry about our food or our clothing. (I also note that he does not mention "shelter"! And so, while my family has ample clothing and food, we have changed "the place where we take up housekeeping" no less than eight times in the past few years. lol)

He did say that God will provide for anyone who steps out in faith in him, but people can't believe that he really will.

HE WILL HE WILL! PRAISE THE LORD GOD ON HIGH! THANK YOU, FATHER!

People of God have stepped off their original foundation and taken on the words of the world to re-define themselves. When you re-define yourself, Christ no longer defines you. Many have adopted the ways of the world and adopted its words to describe themselves. When the humanist interprets reality around him, he has only his own categories of thought to use as a reference for meaning, but the bondmen of Jesus the Christ have His Spirit and His Words.

Ephesians 4:17-18, "This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles [the natural man] walk, in the vanity of their mind [reason], Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance [of not knowing the Power of Words] that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:"
​

So we really have to look to the Lord for everything and He will remove that blindness of the heart. "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God" (1 Corinthians 2:14), therefore his heart remains blind

We know that the governments of men exist to keep the 'low and lawless forms of humanity' from doing violence to all, including themselves, and as our Father's rod of correction for His children. God uses Caesar to regulate corporations and the natural man. Corporations and ungodly men do not live by God's Law, thus they are both 'low and lawless' in the eyes of God, and in the eyes of man, and to control them, they must be under some kind of law, or there will be anarchy. Without the law of God in you, a regulatable personality must be created to protect others from you! This is the purpose of legal personalities

Therefore, if you use the words of the world, or do the deeds of the world, they will perceive you to be of the world, and Caesar will acquire jurisdiction over you. To avoid being regulated by Caesar, all one must do is avoid the things of Caesar and fully partake of the things of God

To become able to identify the things that are Caesar's, and thereby avoid them, we will reiterate that Caesar has no-thing but an image, and it is that image that gives the power unto him. That image is only established and kept alive by those who live, move and have their being in that distorted image. If you're a 'thing', you're not made in the image and likeness of God, but you're made in the image and likeness of someone else who put his seal on you, who does his own will instead of the will of Almighty God. Labels are one of those things to bring a bondman of Christ into the house of bondage to the world (Galatians 2:4; 5:1, Hebrews 2:15, 2 Peter 2:19). In short, that which is outside Christ are the things that belong to Caesar, and are the things of death.

Labels are images, as was the superscription on the silver coin shown to Christ (Mark 12:15-17). Here, Christ said, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." In this example, the Lord's answer requires everyone to make the determination as to what belongs to Caesar and what belongs to God. Since the Scripture says, "The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith the LORD of hosts" (Haggai 2:8), that means, in truth, the silver coin shown to Jesus belonged to God. The substance of the coin itself was part of God's Creation. However, those who look to Caesar for their well-being will believe this coin belongs to Caesar instead. They don't look at the substance of the coin, they only look to the image on the coin

If you worship that image, then everything you have belongs to Caesar, including the substance. Jesus was showing the blindness of the people who were looking to the image of Caesar, and not to the substance of the coin; and that's why they all marvelled at him (Mark 12:17). Jesus spoke the Truth, that truth being...if you look to Caesar you're going to render unto him; if you can only see the superscription, the image, the outward, the flesh, then you're going to render unto Caesar.

It is those people who keep that image alive, and it is that image which gives power unto Caesar. We are not to partake of the image of Caesar. For those that do not, "Death is swallowed up in victory" (1 Corinthians 15:54) in the Lord. Look to His image only and all the hidden and veiled images will disappear.

2 Corinthians 3:16-18, "Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." Colossians 3:1-2, "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth."
Wisdom of Solomon 6:11, "Wherefore set your affection upon my words; desire them, and ye shall be instructed."


​

 

[my_little_pony]

If man does prevent you from doing what you thought was God's Will, then maybe that's God's way of telling you it was not His Will in the first place, and he may be directing you to a different calling.

Interesting observation. I particularly like that you used words like "maybe" and "may" because it shows an openness to considering the options without becoming dogmatic.

In my own walk with God I've found that it's just not possible to "figure him out". One day he says, "zig" and the next day he says, "zag". I mean, I think it's good to want to, and to try to understand God's ways, but at the same time, the moment we think we have him encapsulated in some formula is the moment we get "left behind".

I think it is like that with forsaking material possessions. The "law" is there in Jesus' teachings, about forsaking all, but at the same time the "law is for the lawless". As children we need to be told what to do for our own good, and that is where commands come in, but at some point the spirit is there, too, waiting for us to get the lessons so that we don't need to be told what to do anymore, because we learn the REASON behind the command.

Unfortunately, some people just become offended at the idea that a God of love and grace would dare to command them at all. They never learn the reason behind the command because they say grace frees them from such discipline.

Perhaps it's a bit like true anarchy. The kingdom of Heaven probably represents the truest form of anarchy possible, where people are accountable directly to God alone; not governed by laws, but rather by a genuine desire to help and love one another.

Anyway, I'm rambling a bit now!

Therefore, what makes you think that He will not provide more stuff for you? It comes down to faith, or a lack of faith.

I think an important part is learning how to abound and how to be abased. You mentioned earlier that, at least at some time, Jesus slept out under the stars because he had no home.

And yet, in other places Jesus clearly slept in a house. I think we need to be that way too.

I know that quite often people will talk about a "willingness" to do such things, but until we actually DO it a few times we never really know if that willingness is genuine.

Perhaps that is part of the reason behind the command; a little something to get us over our initial fears by just jumping into the deep end.

Anyway, I'll leave it there.

p.s. I've been working with some friends on developing a Christian website, soj and I think you may appreciate at least some of what's there, based on what you've shared so far. In particular, I am thinking of the "money" section.

The address is simba-judah dot webs dot com

Let me know what you think if you get a chance to have a look at it.

 

[my_little_pony]

wahhhhh sojourn where are you!!! I really like most of what you were saying!!!

 

[sojourn4Christ]

sorry!

Thanks for your post! I'm at an internet cafe, and time is limited. I will reply, God willing, as soon as I am again able. May God bless you!

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Don't fear to take the mark

The antichrist will not have control of the earth till the middle of the tribulation at the end of the sixth trumpet judgment.

The church age believers will be taken out of the way before God gives the antichrist power in the formerly christian nations. 2 Thessalonians2:3-12


A computer chip in the hand would solve a lot of problems with tax collecting, if there was no cash. It would also be usable world wide better than cash for a one world system.

 

[my_little_pony]

Ok, soj, I look forward to hearing from you when you are able.

-------------------------------------

Hi Eric, I appreciate you concerns, but I feel the issue of WHEN Christians are "taken up" to meet Jesus in the sky is not essential to the topic of buying and selling.

Although the "mark of the beast" is mentioned in the Revelation, there is no definitely indication as to when it will be initiated. The most likely time frame would coincide with the Great tribulation, but there is no guarantee on that.

The Mark could be implemented before that time, too, so theories about how Jesus will swoop down to save people from the Mark may not be the best answer for dealing with the lesson behind the Mark.

I've made a conntect, MANY times now between the lessons behind the Mark of the Beast and the lessons behind teachings Jesus gave concerning money in the Gospels.

So often, when I hear people giving reasons for why Christians will not need to face the choice between God and money which the Mark represents, I wonder why they do it.

EVEN IF Christians will not be here to face the Mark, the lesson is still valid today. The ONLY significance between the Mark and what Jesus taught, is that the Mark represents a final line in the concrete which people may not cross without SHOWING who their loyalty really lies with.

In today's world people have come up with any number of reasons to explain away Jesus' teachings on God vs. money; to say that he didn't really mean what he said etc...

The Mark represents a time when people will no longer be able to play those kind of games.

The LESSON is the same NOW as it will be when the Mark is enacted, so theories about how Christians will not be here to face the Mark really become pointless.

 

[Eric E Stahl]

the mark of the beast

Ok, soj, I look forward to hearing from you when you are able.

-------------------------------------

Hi Eric, I appreciate you concerns, but I feel the issue of WHEN Christians are "taken up" to meet Jesus in the sky is not essential to the topic of buying and selling.

(Many people look at these postings so it is important that pertinent information be posted. Many Christians are concerned that credit cards are part of the mark so I want to let them know that they don't need to worry since the mark of the beast happens after the Church age believers are taken to heaven.)



Although the "mark of the beast" is mentioned in the Revelation, there is no definitely indication as to when it will be initiated.

(Revelation 13:15-16 indicates that the false prophet will institute the mark of the beast after the Image of the antichrist is set up about the middle of the tribulation.)


The most likely time frame would coincide with the Great tribulation, but there is no guarantee on that.

The Mark could be implemented before that time, too, so theories about how Jesus will swoop down to save people from the Mark may not be the best answer for dealing with the lesson behind the Mark.

I've made a conntect, MANY times now between the lessons behind the Mark of the Beast and the lessons behind teachings Jesus gave concerning money in the Gospels.

So often, when I hear people giving reasons for why Christians will not need to face the choice between God and money which the Mark represents, I wonder why they do it.

EVEN IF Christians will not be here to face the Mark, the lesson is still valid today. The ONLY significance between the Mark and what Jesus taught, is that the Mark represents a final line in the concrete which people may not cross without SHOWING who their loyalty really lies with.

In today's world people have come up with any number of reasons to explain away Jesus' teachings on God vs. money; to say that he didn't really mean what he said etc...

( Jesus warned against "the love of money" not money. Money is a blessing from God. We can help missionaries and poor people by showing them God's love.)

The Mark represents a time when people will no longer be able to play those kind of games.

The LESSON is the same NOW as it will be when the Mark is enacted, so theories about how Christians will not be here to face the Mark really become pointless.

(It is not pointless to the people that are concerned.)

 

[Beans]

Woh! This is an interesting thread.
I've been thinking about what Pony and Sojourn have been saying and I can really see how it lines up with what Jesus says.
It really does seem to be very central to Christian faith to know who we are serving (i.e. God or Money).
I've met a lot of people who say that they are "witnessing" on their jobs, but when it comes right down to it they would not continue in the job if they were not getting paid. What's my point? Well if they are really in their position because God told them to be there, then the money would be a non issue, because they are just following God.
I think there is the same type of self deception when it comes to the Mark of the Beast. People want to say that they will not take the Mark of the Beast when it comes in, but then if they are not willing to make a stand now, what makes them think they will do it then?

Jesus did say that we must choose between God and Money. If we are having trouble deciding, then Money has already won.