Can you be both Liberal and Christian?

[Rad]

Hello Rad,
You're playing the devil's advocate here on this illegal immigration. You have chosen a position and stand by it, when all you have to do is a little research, which I don't understand why you refuse to do so. Use your search engine to look for Honduras Caravans going to the U.S.A. (Videos if you prefer). This is an organized endeavor, not one where people are fleeing from persecution/war! Look with the critical eye of a non-partisan observer and you'll see easily enough that this is not something that had to happen or was spontaneous as happens in war torn countries.

I realize that pointing out the above to you, will only make you change the attack point that you are coming from. For if one point doesn't justify what you are saying, you'll find another. As long as what you feel is the righteous position, wins out. You don't know me so as far as knowing what these people are going. Guess what? I happen to be Hispanic Brother. I am. In fact first generation American. Both my parents were legal immigrants. My father from Puerto Rico, and my mother from Cuba. I have family members who were boat people, search that out if you don't know what that means. So, do I know a little something about this or am I'm just blindly go by feelings of self-righteousness?

Also, don't blame others for the conditions these illegal immigrants put themselves in. They have opened the door to it, and are paying the price of their own foolishness. Yes, that's right foolishness. The countries are not war torn as I mentioned in my previous post. If we bordered Africa, you know that the U.S.A would have helped, and then intervened. As some of the countries are doing in Africa, and who are being assisted by not only the U.N., but different countries worldwide. Want to figure who the most generous country is in giving? Not only in material goods, but also the blood sweat and tears. Yes, we do have more, and so give more, but there are plenty of countries that could do more and don't. You should go waggle your finger at them for awhile.

Seeking a better life is not an excuse for doing illegal acts, i.e crossing another countries border without permission. A Christian should not be siding with those, who have placed themselves and their families in such situations if for no other reason but for material gain. Scripture in fact would tell you accept the lot you have been handed. Rejoice my brother at all times! No, sadly these people have bought into the same propaganda that you apparently believe, in and that is grab what you can, no matter what the cost is to you and others. That a country wants to exercise the laws like every other country does, and they're the enemy? Don't you believe in the consequences of ones own actions? You should. We as Christians know that a judgment day is coming. Yes, even for those who have turned their backs on others, but also for those who foment lawlessness and strife.

As far as those who pay coyotes to get them across the border? Why are they doing this? Again for material gain. First they scrimp and save to pay someone to sneak them across the border! You don't see on how many different levels how wrong that is? Definitely not Scriptural brother!!!

Now you can come up with certain situations where some people are truly being persecuted, but when you start intermingling and justifying those who are not. All you are doing is making it worse for those who do need the refuge!!!! This is the sort of blindness that makes these situations worse no matter which side you have chosen to take. This is how the Devil likes to work brother. Making them believe that Salvation is a place. NO! Only God's Grace found through the Son of God Jesus Christ is Salvation found and in no other, and it doesn't matter if you're here, there, or anywhere you want to name. Our task to disciple and bring the Gospel to them is no different. Just more challenging, and yet as joyful when one can look into the eyes of them that know the Lord, even as the gaze of life leaves their eyes. For they'll be where we all want to be and that is with the Lord.

What you do here is justify the action, because the symptom of said action is horrifying to contemplate. Question here. Do you spread the Gospel in the same way. Identifying Hell/Sin to the individuals that don't know the Lord's Saving Grace and the resulting damnation they face without Him? You would do better telling the illegal immigrants the truth instead of chastising Brothers & Sisters in Christ Jesus as you've been doing.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

Wow, thanks for that reply Nick, theres so much to take in and think about, but just one observation, in the parable of the "Good Samaritan", or in any of Christs parables or commandments to love others, do you find any judgement on how those in need arrived at that situation, i suppose what i'm asking is do you feel theres the "deserving" and "undeserving" poor and destitute, those that are deserving of our love and compassion and those that aren't, and if you do, who are we to make that decision, being sinners ourselves,...... and i'm sorry you feel i'm "chastising", my apologies for any offence i've caused, like all of us i'm trying to understand and grow in my faith, and when other views and opinions are expressed i feel the need to question whats said, for its only when we do, that we can truly understand.

 

[Sue D.]

Rad -- if there was a group of soldiers approaching your home countries' border with guns and obvious intentions of gunning you - as the enemy - down. To take your land and persecute you -- how would You react. Chances are you would Not be inviting those invading soldiers into your home to help feed / clothe them. Those soldiers would be there to capture and control / destroy. And your countries' soldiers would probably be ordered to take them down. to Not let them invade your country.

Well -- the invading soldiers are in the form of young men, women and children. And Why don't they Stay in their own country and Fight those who are messing with Their home land.

Ya know Why? Because lots of MS 13 gang people are coming up and lots are already Here. Causing all kinds of trouble. They are Powerful and would like to take over this country. More white slavery -- child slavery -- hard drugs -- diseases. Well - measles is growing in this country as we speak.

So - yes, -- those who are genuinely In need we Are to help. And there Is the matter of language barriers. How do 'we' evangelize when we can't speak their language and have no intention of learning Our language.

And most of those coming across illegally have No problem breaking our laws once they get here. I don't think they have the concept of obeying laws in the first place.

Are you Really wanting to understand or simply pushing your agenda.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Wow, thanks for that reply Nick, theres so much to take in and think about, but just one observation, in the parable of the "Good Samaritan", or in any of Christs parables or commandments to love others, do you find any judgement on how those in need arrived at that situation, i suppose what i'm asking is do you feel theres the "deserving" and "undeserving" poor and destitute, those that are deserving of our love and compassion and those that aren't, and if you do, who are we to make that decision, being sinners ourselves,...... and i'm sorry you feel i'm "chastising", my apologies for any offence i've caused, like all of us i'm trying to understand and grow in my faith, and when other views and opinions are expressed i feel the need to question whats said, for its only when we do, that we can truly understand.

Hello Rad,
I'll wait until you take the rest of it in, before commenting on your ability to cherry pick a parable, and extrapolate it into those who are attempting to storm their way across the Southern Border of the U.S.A without using the discernment you have available to you to see what the differences are.

Love and compassion are not a Carte Blanche Brother Rad for those who do wrong. So, the need to discern, correct lovingly and with great compassion must always be on the table and used when needed. Don't you think that God does that with us when we go astray? Yet, His love and compassion are never doubted? Maybe, we don't accept the correction so readily, at least not initially, but eventually we get there brother. As I hope that you will as well.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Bill]

Hello Rad,
You're playing the devil's advocate here on this illegal immigration. You have chosen a position and stand by it, when all you have to do is a little research, which I don't understand why you refuse to do so. Use your search engine to look for Honduras Caravans going to the U.S.A. (Videos if you prefer). This is an organized endeavor, not one where people are fleeing from persecution/war! Look with the critical eye of a non-partisan observer and you'll see easily enough that this is not something that had to happen or was spontaneous as happens in war torn countries.

I realize that pointing out the above to you, will only make you change the attack point that you are coming from. For if one point doesn't justify what you are saying, you'll find another. As long as what you feel is the righteous position, wins out. You don't know me so as far as knowing what these people are going. Guess what? I happen to be Hispanic Brother. I am. In fact first generation American. Both my parents were legal immigrants. My father from Puerto Rico, and my mother from Cuba. I have family members who were boat people, search that out if you don't know what that means. So, do I know a little something about this or am I'm just blindly go by feelings of self-righteousness?

Also, don't blame others for the conditions these illegal immigrants put themselves in. They have opened the door to it, and are paying the price of their own foolishness. Yes, that's right foolishness. The countries are not war torn as I mentioned in my previous post. If we bordered Africa, you know that the U.S.A would have helped, and then intervened. As some of the countries are doing in Africa, and who are being assisted by not only the U.N., but different countries worldwide. Want to figure who the most generous country is in giving? Not only in material goods, but also the blood sweat and tears. Yes, we do have more, and so give more, but there are plenty of countries that could do more and don't. You should go waggle your finger at them for awhile.

Seeking a better life is not an excuse for doing illegal acts, i.e crossing another countries border without permission. A Christian should not be siding with those, who have placed themselves and their families in such situations if for no other reason but for material gain. Scripture in fact would tell you accept the lot you have been handed. Rejoice my brother at all times! No, sadly these people have bought into the same propaganda that you apparently believe, in and that is grab what you can, no matter what the cost is to you and others. That a country wants to exercise the laws like every other country does, and they're the enemy? Don't you believe in the consequences of ones own actions? You should. We as Christians know that a judgment day is coming. Yes, even for those who have turned their backs on others, but also for those who foment lawlessness and strife.

As far as those who pay coyotes to get them across the border? Why are they doing this? Again for material gain. First they scrimp and save to pay someone to sneak them across the border! You don't see on how many different levels how wrong that is? Definitely not Scriptural brother!!!

Now you can come up with certain situations where some people are truly being persecuted, but when you start intermingling and justifying those who are not. All you are doing is making it worse for those who do need the refuge!!!! This is the sort of blindness that makes these situations worse no matter which side you have chosen to take. This is how the Devil likes to work brother. Making them believe that Salvation is a place. NO! Only God's Grace found through the Son of God Jesus Christ is Salvation found and in no other, and it doesn't matter if you're here, there, or anywhere you want to name. Our task to disciple and bring the Gospel to them is no different. Just more challenging, and yet as joyful when one can look into the eyes of them that know the Lord, even as the gaze of life leaves their eyes. For they'll be where we all want to be and that is with the Lord.

What you do here is justify the action, because the symptom of said action is horrifying to contemplate. Question here. Do you spread the Gospel in the same way. Identifying Hell/Sin to the individuals that don't know the Lord's Saving Grace and the resulting damnation they face without Him? You would do better telling the illegal immigrants the truth instead of chastising Brothers & Sisters in Christ Jesus as you've been doing.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

Rad feels justified in his words. But he is a stident of English media. The same can be said about French and German media. Strongly liberal leaning

 

[Rad]

Rad -- if there was a group of soldiers approaching your home countries' border with guns and obvious intentions of gunning you - as the enemy - down. To take your land and persecute you -- how would You react. Chances are you would Not be inviting those invading soldiers into your home to help feed / clothe them. Those soldiers would be there to capture and control / destroy. And your countries' soldiers would probably be ordered to take them down. to Not let them invade your country.

Well -- the invading soldiers are in the form of young men, women and children. And Why don't they Stay in their own country and Fight those who are messing with Their home land.

Ya know Why? Because lots of MS 13 gang people are coming up and lots are already Here. Causing all kinds of trouble. They are Powerful and would like to take over this country. More white slavery -- child slavery -- hard drugs -- diseases. Well - measles is growing in this country as we speak.

So - yes, -- those who are genuinely In need we Are to help. And there Is the matter of language barriers. How do 'we' evangelize when we can't speak their language and have no intention of learning Our language.

And most of those coming across illegally have No problem breaking our laws once they get here. I don't think they have the concept of obeying laws in the first place.

Are you Really wanting to understand or simply pushing your agenda.

I'm not pushing any "agenda" Sue, what i'm trying to do is to understand and apply the teachings of Christ into my life, the discussion has become focused on immigration, so i look to Christs teaching on that issue, besides his Commandment to Love our Neighbour as we love ourselves and to treat others as we would want to be treated he specifically says that when we welcome the Stranger we welcome him, and when we turn the stranger away we do that to him, for me its really as simple as that,....... as regards the "enemy" as you call them , well Christs teachings on that are to Love our enemies, bless those that curse us and pray for those that spitefully use and persecute us, we are called on to give to those that ask and in the face of the destitute and Hungry there we will find Christ, not on the side of the rich and powerful, not on the side of those with Guns and Dogs tearing Children from their parents and persecuting and vilifying those in need, no matter whether they be "legal" or not, no matter whether they've brought this on themselves by their "foolishness", the important issue is that they're in need, and i am commanded , out of Love and Compassion, to help...... so it doesn't matter what i think, or what agenda i have, or what wordly justification i try to put on my actions, as a Christian we follow Christs teachings, and those teachings of Love and Compassion command we stand with the poor and oppressed, not the rich and the powerful, and will be judged accordingly.

 

[Sue D.]

Rad -- people who are trying to invade this country Are the enemy of our freedom as a country. And, yes the caravan's of people from those other countries who are very willing and able to climb over, around, through our borders to get inside this country in a very non-legal way Are our enemies.

Maybe you've seen the pictures that some are taking Of the groups of people coming here -- they are Not needy, they have the latest technowledgy , their backpacks -- they are Not starving -- they are traveling in truck loads, on foot , anyway available.

The kids that are being 'torn away from their parents ' -- do you realize that there is no way to tell Who those kids belong To? Those 'kids' have been brought up in a Very different environment than we raise Our kids in. They've been raised in a very crime centered area. No sense of right or wrong. Do you Really want people with That kind of background living next door to You? When there's really No way To share the Gospel because ya can't speak the same language. They are breaking our laws -- stealing, killing , raping -- yes they ARE in need. But How are You going to be meeting Their need while they are busy breaking into your house -- assaulting your wife / kids.

You seem to feel so led -- okay -- visit them in prison or in the compounds on the other side of the border. Just Don't help them get.

And do you Also realize that kids in this country are being taken away from parents all the time when the 'responsible' adult parents are breaking the laws. They spend months and mostly Years separated from Their parents. CPS workers do it all the time. No one makes a 'bit stink' about That.

 

[Rad]

Hello Rad,
You're playing the devil's advocate here on this illegal immigration. You have chosen a position and stand by it, when all you have to do is a little research, which I don't understand why you refuse to do so. Use your search engine to look for Honduras Caravans going to the U.S.A. (Videos if you prefer). This is an organized endeavor, not one where people are fleeing from persecution/war! Look with the critical eye of a non-partisan observer and you'll see easily enough that this is not something that had to happen or was spontaneous as happens in war torn countries.

I realize that pointing out the above to you, will only make you change the attack point that you are coming from. For if one point doesn't justify what you are saying, you'll find another. As long as what you feel is the righteous position, wins out. You don't know me so as far as knowing what these people are going. Guess what? I happen to be Hispanic Brother. I am. In fact first generation American. Both my parents were legal immigrants. My father from Puerto Rico, and my mother from Cuba. I have family members who were boat people, search that out if you don't know what that means. So, do I know a little something about this or am I'm just blindly go by feelings of self-righteousness?

Also, don't blame others for the conditions these illegal immigrants put themselves in. They have opened the door to it, and are paying the price of their own foolishness. Yes, that's right foolishness. The countries are not war torn as I mentioned in my previous post. If we bordered Africa, you know that the U.S.A would have helped, and then intervened. As some of the countries are doing in Africa, and who are being assisted by not only the U.N., but different countries worldwide. Want to figure who the most generous country is in giving? Not only in material goods, but also the blood sweat and tears. Yes, we do have more, and so give more, but there are plenty of countries that could do more and don't. You should go waggle your finger at them for awhile.

Seeking a better life is not an excuse for doing illegal acts, i.e crossing another countries border without permission. A Christian should not be siding with those, who have placed themselves and their families in such situations if for no other reason but for material gain. Scripture in fact would tell you accept the lot you have been handed. Rejoice my brother at all times! No, sadly these people have bought into the same propaganda that you apparently believe, in and that is grab what you can, no matter what the cost is to you and others. That a country wants to exercise the laws like every other country does, and they're the enemy? Don't you believe in the consequences of ones own actions? You should. We as Christians know that a judgment day is coming. Yes, even for those who have turned their backs on others, but also for those who foment lawlessness and strife.

As far as those who pay coyotes to get them across the border? Why are they doing this? Again for material gain. First they scrimp and save to pay someone to sneak them across the border! You don't see on how many different levels how wrong that is? Definitely not Scriptural brother!!!

Now you can come up with certain situations where some people are truly being persecuted, but when you start intermingling and justifying those who are not. All you are doing is making it worse for those who do need the refuge!!!! This is the sort of blindness that makes these situations worse no matter which side you have chosen to take. This is how the Devil likes to work brother. Making them believe that Salvation is a place. NO! Only God's Grace found through the Son of God Jesus Christ is Salvation found and in no other, and it doesn't matter if you're here, there, or anywhere you want to name. Our task to disciple and bring the Gospel to them is no different. Just more challenging, and yet as joyful when one can look into the eyes of them that know the Lord, even as the gaze of life leaves their eyes. For they'll be where we all want to be and that is with the Lord.

What you do here is justify the action, because the symptom of said action is horrifying to contemplate. Question here. Do you spread the Gospel in the same way. Identifying Hell/Sin to the individuals that don't know the Lord's Saving Grace and the resulting damnation they face without Him? You would do better telling the illegal immigrants the truth instead of chastising Brothers & Sisters in Christ Jesus as you've been doing.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

I'm not playing anything here Nick, i'm putting forward my views as based on my understanding of Christs teachings as laid out in the Gospels, and as i've said to Sue, it doesn't matter what i think, or what agenda i have, or political views, of wordly justification, as a Christian my views must be based on the teachings of Christ, its that simple, anyway that said you keep referring to "research", well does that matter, obviously to you it does, so heres a little "research", GDP per capita, US 2018 from the IMF, hardly a Liberal institution, $62,606, Nicaragua $2108, Guatemala $4575, Honduras $2521, Mexico $9807, and remember these are average figures, when you take out the rich and middle class the poorest will have to "live" on far, far less, so how about Poverty rates ,US 12.3%, El salvador poverty rate of 38%, Nicaragua, around 25-30% of the population live in poverty , Honduras 60 % of the population live in Poverty, of which 16% live in abject poverty according to the World bank on less than $1.90, Guatemala poverty rates of around 60% according to the World bank and Mexico around 43%, and finally Homicide rates per capita,US 5.35 per 100,000 inhabitants, Nicaragua 7.37, Honduras 56.62, Guatemala 27.26, El Salvador 82.84, Mexico 19.26 ....... so apart from illustrating that these countries are mired in Poverty and Violence, what else do you extrapolate from them, i will ask you again Nick, do you consider there are the "deserving" and the "undeserving" poor and suffering, and if you do , on which of Christs teachings do you base that assessment and just where does Christ say that the rich and powerful have the right to deny others the Gifts of Gods Bounty in his World ?.

 

[Christ4Ever]

I'm not playing anything here Nick, i'm putting forward my views as based on my understanding of Christs teachings as laid out in the Gospels, and as i've said to Sue, it doesn't matter what i think, or what agenda i have, or political views, of wordly justification, as a Christian my views must be based on the teachings of Christ, its that simple, anyway that said you keep referring to "research", well does that matter, obviously to you it does, so heres a little "research", GDP per capita, US 2018 from the IMF, hardly a Liberal institution, $62,606, Nicaragua $2108, Guatemala $4575, Honduras $2521, Mexico $9807, and remember these are average figures, when you take out the rich and middle class the poorest will have to "live" on far, far less, so how about Poverty rates ,US 12.3%, El salvador poverty rate of 38%, Nicaragua, around 25-30% of the population live in poverty , Honduras 60 % of the population live in Poverty, of which 16% live in abject poverty according to the World bank on less than $1.90, Guatemala poverty rates of around 60% according to the World bank and Mexico around 43%, and finally Homicide rates per capita,US 5.35 per 100,000 inhabitants, Nicaragua 7.37, Honduras 56.62, Guatemala 27.26, El Salvador 82.84, Mexico 19.26 ....... so apart from illustrating that these countries are mired in Poverty and Violence, what else do you extrapolate from them, i will ask you again Nick, do you consider there are the "deserving" and the "undeserving" poor and suffering, and if you do , on which of Christs teachings do you base that assessment and just where does Christ say that the rich and powerful have the right to deny others the Gifts of Gods Bounty in his World ?.

Hello Rad,
Actually your views, and agenda if you have them are what matters in this discussion. Which I believe is why up till now, you still have missed the point in what I've written to you in respect of researching the other side. The purpose is only to acquire data that will provide you with as humanly possible a picture by which you as a Christian can compare against the standard that we use which is Scripture and as you say Jesus. So that with the resulting information we can put our faith into action. It was not necessary for Jesus to research, for He had all knowledge, and knew and knows all outcomes. We however do not.

Note: You might understand this better by looking at the "Welfare State" and what it does to people. Yes, there are people in need, orphans, widows, handicapped, that without assistance would die, but many others????......don't need to go there do I?

You mentioned Jesus in establishing your standard. What exactly did He say concerning the poor, hungry, etc.? I'm really curious on what Scriptures you'll find. Research both sides on this

I feel like I'm giving homework here By the way, since it's numbers you're bringing into the topic, which is not my area of expertise. Please define "Poverty" for me. For GDP and/or "Poverty" as yet undefined is driven by many factors, many of which relocating from one location to another won't solve, and may just quite exacerbate.

By the way as a side note, since it revolves around money, you would have had fun discussing "Money" with a group of individuals who are/were members here that stated we should give all that we have away, work not for money etc. They justified their position with Scripture and the words of Jesus as well brother. This is why I mentioned in my last post the need for discernment, otherwise, not to speak for them, but they'd probably say the people you are speaking about, those who are poor etc. Are actually better off, and blessed to be in such a state. No impediments to doing God's will!

On your last couple of sentences above. I feel your pain. When I was young, I used to cry thinking of those who were just living their lives, not knowing the Lord, and would be going to Hell. The tears don't come as readily as they used to. Maybe, it has to do with me getting older, and the world getting darker. However, what hasn't changed that no matter what situation one may be in or find themselves in. I believe only in Christ Jesus will we find that which is worth having. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? Matthew 16:26

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Christ4Ever]

Rad feels justified in his words. But he is a stident of English media. The same can be said about French and German media. Strongly liberal leaning

Hello Bill,
I understand where he's coming from brother. He's pretty much has already made the observation that "Conservative" no longer exist in the UK, except in some minor instances. Not too surprising to me. It helped that I was stationed in the UK for a couple of years. Spent 4 years in Germany as well, before the Wall came down, so I really don't know how bad it's gotten since then, with the new influx of fellow Germans (East), as well as the "immigration" issues they're having to combat. So, my total of 13 years in Europe, along with my immigrant background of my family in the U.S.A., I believe has opened me up to seeing things a little bit differently than many people see them. Also, don't let me get into what Christ has done in my life and the affect on how I see the World differently!!!!!!!

My focus is really on the Lord now a days, and family. The Geo-Political going on's are not something I dig into as much as I used to. Takes too much time and bares little fruit.

With the Love of Christ Jesus Brother Bill!
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Rad]

Hello Rad,
Actually your views, and agenda if you have them are what matters in this discussion. Which I believe is why up till now, you still have missed the point in what I've written to you in respect of researching the other side. The purpose is only to acquire data that will provide you with as humanly possible a picture by which you as a Christian can compare against the standard that we use which is Scripture and as you say Jesus. So that with the resulting information we can put our faith into action. It was not necessary for Jesus to research, for He had all knowledge, and knew and knows all outcomes. We however do not.

Note: You might understand this better by looking at the "Welfare State" and what it does to people. Yes, there are people in need, orphans, widows, handicapped, that without assistance would die, but many others????......don't need to go there do I?

You mentioned Jesus in establishing your standard. What exactly did He say concerning the poor, hungry, etc.? I'm really curious on what Scriptures you'll find. Research both sides on this :smile:

I feel like I'm giving homework here :smile: By the way, since it's numbers you're bringing into the topic, which is not my area of expertise. Please define "Poverty" for me. For GDP and/or "Poverty" as yet undefined is driven by many factors, many of which relocating from one location to another won't solve, and may just quite exacerbate.

By the way as a side note, since it revolves around money, you would have had fun discussing "Money" with a group of individuals who are/were members here that stated we should give all that we have away, work not for money etc. They justified their position with Scripture and the words of Jesus as well brother. This is why I mentioned in my last post the need for discernment, otherwise, not to speak for them, but they'd probably say the people you are speaking about, those who are poor etc. Are actually better off, and blessed to be in such a state. No impediments to doing God's will!

On your last couple of sentences above. I feel your pain. When I was young, I used to cry thinking of those who were just living their lives, not knowing the Lord, and would be going to Hell. The tears don't come as readily as they used to. Maybe, it has to do with me getting older, and the world getting darker. However, what hasn't changed that no matter what situation one may be in or find themselves in. I believe only in Christ Jesus will we find that which is worth having. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? Matthew 16:26

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

The way i see it Nick, if my views conflict with Christs teachings then i cannot use my faith to justify my actions, perhaps one of the hardest commandments to follow is to turn the other cheek, not to resist Evil and Love your enemies, when struck our natural reaction is to hit back, when faced with Evil, our response is to use force if necessary to defeat it, and rather than loving our enemies our inclination is to vilify and despise them and by so doing justify our actions in defeating them, i struggle with this daily and pray for strength in resisting my sinful urges to fight fire with fire,...... in doing my research i start from the basis that this is Gods World, National man made borders mean nothing to me, if someone is in need or suffering it matters not where they live the important thing is that they are in need and we as Christians are commanded to help, i suppose the most relevant teaching of Christ on this issue is Matthew 25 vs 31-46, "The Sheep and the Goats", here Christ so identifies with the Hungry, the Sick, the homeless, the Stranger and the Thirsty that he says when you help them you are helping him, but when you turn away from them you turn away from him, and will be judged accordingly, together with the Commandment to Love others as you love yourself and to treat others as you would want to be treated gives me the basis of a life of Radical Compassion and Love for others, especially those in need, ...... the Poverty figures relate to national poverty lines, which can vary from Country to country, being formulated by national governments, absolute Income figures are also published by the World bank, the list can be found here if you're interested, List of countries by percentage of population living in poverty - Wikipedia ....... i think there is a theological justification based on Christs teachings for giving all you have to the poor, and perhaps the reason i can't follow it is due again to my sinful greed and selfishness, also if everyone in the world followed this principle it would lead to a world where everyone had an equal share of Gods resources, as it is i try to give an increasing amount of my income to Charities working with the poorest in this world, but it is a struggle, for how readily we define whats ours, and how strongly we seek to defend it ignoring Christs warning, "do not store up treasure on this Earth, where Moth and Rust Corrupts,... for where your treasure is your heart will be Also",...... and i've got to say Nick i no longer try to judge who will be saved and who won't, for sure it pains me greatly that so many will be condemned, but whilst i'm in this world i'll try to follow Christs commandment to " let your Light shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father which is in Heaven",

 

[Sue D.]

Rad -- a couple of thoughts. You don't believe in man-made borders. Yet in the Old Testament the Lord God Himself was leading the Israelites to war against neighboring countries. They were to conquer many people groups -- destroy -- plunder. All the many groups of people who they were Told to go to war against.

In the New Testament -- providing for the poor / needy / widows /orphans within their groups.

And wealth / poverty are all in the eyes of the beholder - so to speak.

Some of the poorest people in the world don't see themselves As such. They are who they are and live as they live. They live in mud huts or worse.

Now This country has been blessed by God because we Do / used to / still do Try to live by God's Word.

My sister and brother -in-law were missionaries in Brazil for 40 yrs. They learned the language and lived as the people around them did. Well -- they ministered to street kids who lived more like animals than people. They would take them into their house and raise them with their own 4 kids. Many times that meant teaching them basic sitting down on a chair, using a bathroom, using a plate at a table, knife and fork. And as missionaries -- they obeyed the laws for entry into that country. Visa's. They respected the laws of that country. They got the schooling required to be there as missionaries. There was a legal process they were required to go through and it took years to get that schooling and learn the language.

Actually in the New Testament the idea is to work for what you eat. When physically able to do so.

Well -- Not everybody in this world is going to follow that principle. This is Not a perfect world. Everyone being taken care of in all their needs is a great idea -- it's sort of what socialism is about. Everyone on the same level of income, housing, jobs, etc. The thing is Who is going to determine what that level Is? The 'ideal' would be everyone in the middle-class of society? in the upper-income ? or maybe the Lower-income. There will Always be a combination of all three . 'We will always have the poor amongst us'.

Well -- Maybe the Most important aspect is where they will be spending eternity. That will be Forever. And not everyone will Listen. But we Are to share the gospel with them.

What do you think a police officer will think if we are going 90 mph to get to a church service because we're running late. He's going to stop us and give us a ticket for speeding because they posted limit is only 65. So -- in the Long-run, we're better off obeying those speed laws - a boundary / man-made / put their for our driving safety and everyone else on the same highway.

There are all Kinds of boundaries that need to be recognized. You're talking about boundaries relating to countries. But there are the boundaries of house walls and doors to keep us safely inside and the burglar Outside. I've mentioned this before -- what happens when someone breaks through a boundary of your home and assaults your wife / kids. And there are LOTS of relly bad people out there who Do kill 'just because'. Are you going to try to witness to the person while they are assaulting your family? Or are you going to be doing everything in your power/ strength to stop your wife/ kids from being injured any more. If you walk into your house while someone is attacking your wife -- are you simply going to let him or pull him off and Stop him.

So - yes, we Do live by the Word of God. We can become part of a prison ministry -- reach out to the law breakers in That new home of theirs behind a jail cell.

 

[Christ4Ever]

The way i see it Nick, if my views conflict with Christs teachings then i cannot use my faith to justify my actions, perhaps one of the hardest commandments to follow is to turn the other cheek, not to resist Evil and Love your enemies, when struck our natural reaction is to hit back, when faced with Evil, our response is to use force if necessary to defeat it, and rather than loving our enemies our inclination is to vilify and despise them and by so doing justify our actions in defeating them, i struggle with this daily and pray for strength in resisting my sinful urges to fight fire with fire,...... in doing my research i start from the basis that this is Gods World, National man made borders mean nothing to me, if someone is in need or suffering it matters not where they live the important thing is that they are in need and we as Christians are commanded to help, i suppose the most relevant teaching of Christ on this issue is Matthew 25 vs 31-46, "The Sheep and the Goats", here Christ so identifies with the Hungry, the Sick, the homeless, the Stranger and the Thirsty that he says when you help them you are helping him, but when you turn away from them you turn away from him, and will be judged accordingly, together with the Commandment to Love others as you love yourself and to treat others as you would want to be treated gives me the basis of a life of Radical Compassion and Love for others, especially those in need, ...... the Poverty figures relate to national poverty lines, which can vary from Country to country, being formulated by national governments, absolute Income figures are also published by the World bank, the list can be found here if you're interested, List of countries by percentage of population living in poverty - Wikipedia ....... i think there is a theological justification based on Christs teachings for giving all you have to the poor, and perhaps the reason i can't follow it is due again to my sinful greed and selfishness, also if everyone in the world followed this principle it would lead to a world where everyone had an equal share of Gods resources, as it is i try to give an increasing amount of my income to Charities working with the poorest in this world, but it is a struggle, for how readily we define whats ours, and how strongly we seek to defend it ignoring Christs warning, "do not store up treasure on this Earth, where Moth and Rust Corrupts,... for where your treasure is your heart will be Also",...... and i've got to say Nick i no longer try to judge who will be saved and who won't, for sure it pains me greatly that so many will be condemned, but whilst i'm in this world i'll try to follow Christs commandment to " let your Light shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father which is in Heaven",

Hello Rad,
What you lack is as I stated before is both sides, and apparently this includes the use of Scripture as well. Either side can justify itself by the teachings of Christ. Take a look at the sermon on the mount concerning the poor. I can give you water, food, clothing, and yet you will still be poor. So, is it wrong to provide this and then send them back to their own country? Is this then an "evil" act?

Only the one that takes the entirety of not only His teachings but what is relevant to the situation (which you have only done in part) and God's will in a given situation, has the opportunity of understanding what is righteous in a given instance. An example is in the very verse that you stated. What does "resist" evil mean? Does it mean that you condone it? Allow it to happen if you have the ability to stop it? There have been attacks in the UK, with what I would consider insane people cutting people down in the streets. What do you do in that instance and you with the ability to stop it? Sorry I'm not a pacifist. At least not completely.

So, continue to do and believe as you do, but understand that you can't isolate certain parts of Scripture, to come up with standard by which you will live, and not have bumps in the road to deal with. Even smoothing out parts of the road with the entirety of Scripture won't guarantee that you won't have issues, but at least you are arming yourself with as much as is available and not with just the ones that justify this or that.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Avalon1]

No because liberals support abortion and homosexuality which is completely contradictory to God and the bible.

Exodus 20:13 (KJV)

"Thou shalt not kill."

(Homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God)

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (MEV)

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, and you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus by the Spirit of our God."

 

[Rad]

Rad -- a couple of thoughts. You don't believe in man-made borders. Yet in the Old Testament the Lord God Himself was leading the Israelites to war against neighboring countries. They were to conquer many people groups -- destroy -- plunder. All the many groups of people who they were Told to go to war against.

In the New Testament -- providing for the poor / needy / widows /orphans within their groups.

And wealth / poverty are all in the eyes of the beholder - so to speak.

Some of the poorest people in the world don't see themselves As such. They are who they are and live as they live. They live in mud huts or worse.

Now This country has been blessed by God because we Do / used to / still do Try to live by God's Word.

My sister and brother -in-law were missionaries in Brazil for 40 yrs. They learned the language and lived as the people around them did. Well -- they ministered to street kids who lived more like animals than people. They would take them into their house and raise them with their own 4 kids. Many times that meant teaching them basic sitting down on a chair, using a bathroom, using a plate at a table, knife and fork. And as missionaries -- they obeyed the laws for entry into that country. Visa's. They respected the laws of that country. They got the schooling required to be there as missionaries. There was a legal process they were required to go through and it took years to get that schooling and learn the language.

Actually in the New Testament the idea is to work for what you eat. When physically able to do so.

Well -- Not everybody in this world is going to follow that principle. This is Not a perfect world. Everyone being taken care of in all their needs is a great idea -- it's sort of what socialism is about. Everyone on the same level of income, housing, jobs, etc. The thing is Who is going to determine what that level Is? The 'ideal' would be everyone in the middle-class of society? in the upper-income ? or maybe the Lower-income. There will Always be a combination of all three . 'We will always have the poor amongst us'.

Well -- Maybe the Most important aspect is where they will be spending eternity. That will be Forever. And not everyone will Listen. But we Are to share the gospel with them.

What do you think a police officer will think if we are going 90 mph to get to a church service because we're running late. He's going to stop us and give us a ticket for speeding because they posted limit is only 65. So -- in the Long-run, we're better off obeying those speed laws - a boundary / man-made / put their for our driving safety and everyone else on the same highway.

There are all Kinds of boundaries that need to be recognized. You're talking about boundaries relating to countries. But there are the boundaries of house walls and doors to keep us safely inside and the burglar Outside. I've mentioned this before -- what happens when someone breaks through a boundary of your home and assaults your wife / kids. And there are LOTS of relly bad people out there who Do kill 'just because'. Are you going to try to witness to the person while they are assaulting your family? Or are you going to be doing everything in your power/ strength to stop your wife/ kids from being injured any more. If you walk into your house while someone is attacking your wife -- are you simply going to let him or pull him off and Stop him.

So - yes, we Do live by the Word of God. We can become part of a prison ministry -- reach out to the law breakers in That new home of theirs behind a jail cell.

Hi Sue, where to begin, for we both profess to follow Christ yet are at opposite poles when it comes to putting our faith into action, however others see themselves or whatever others do or don't do for me the position as a Christian is crystal clear, Love others as you love yourself and treat others as you would want to be treated, as i've said it doesn't matter whether someone lives next door or 10,000 miles away, if they're in need and i can help , then i am commanded by Christ, out of love and compassion, so to do, and where Mans Laws conflict with Christs Commandments, then i should follow Christs teachings, even if it means breaking the law, for example, a Pastor in one of the Border States is currently facing prosecution because he put food and drink out in the desert for immigrants trying to cross in to the US in a place where hundreds have died whilst attempting the the perilous passage, hes feeding the hungry and giving drink to the thirsty yet hes breaking the law, its a criminal offence to do what hes doing, whose side do you think Christ would be on, and as for the US being "blessed", the Devil offered Christ ALL the kingdoms of this world, for they were his to give, and i would suggest you look into the history of the uS, especially in its dealings with the countries of Central and South America as much of this discussion has focused on immigration from those countries, and you might get a different perspective, in Guatemala alone nearly a quarter of a million people were killed, most by the army and security forces, backed by the US in its war on what it saw as the spread of Communism, many were indigenous people killed under the dictatorship of Rios Montt, an army general who conducted a campaign of murder and destruction that the UN described as Genocide and a man who President Reagan described as having" great moral integrity", and the world is littered with such examples as the US sought to maintain and expand its position of economic and Military supremecy...... and you're right, this world will never be perfect, far from it, but we are called on , whilst recognising our own inherently sinful nature, to alleviate the suffering wherever and whenever we can, when Christ said we should take up our Cross and follow him, this to me means that as a Christian my life will be one of Suffering and sacrifice in the service of the poor and oppressed of Gods World.

 

[Rad]

No because liberals support abortion and homosexuality which is completely contradictory to God and the bible.

Exodus 20:13 (KJV)

"Thou shalt not kill."

(Homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God)

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (MEV)

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, and you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus by the Spirit of our God."

And what of the Rich, and the powerful, what of those that fail to care for the Poor and Suffering, which amongst us is so righteous that he can pronounce on the Judgement of God on others, for surely we are ALL sinners, ALL in need of forgiveness and Grace, ........ who amongst us then can cast the first stone...... so Judge not lest you be judged, for with what judgement you give , the same shall be meted out to you.

 

[Avalon1]

And what of the Rich, and the powerful, what of those that fail to care for the Poor and Suffering, which amongst us is so righteous that he can pronounce on the Judgement of God on others, for surely we are ALL sinners, ALL in need of forgiveness and Grace, ........ who amongst us then can cast the first stone...... so Judge not lest you be judged, for with what judgement you give , the same shall be meted out to you.

I'm not judging, I'm just quoting a scripture. But anyone can be forgiven and redeemed if they repent.

 

[Rad]

Hello Rad,
What you lack is as I stated before is both sides, and apparently this includes the use of Scripture as well. Either side can justify itself by the teachings of Christ. Take a look at the sermon on the mount concerning the poor. I can give you water, food, clothing, and yet you will still be poor. So, is it wrong to provide this and then send them back to their own country? Is this then an "evil" act?

Only the one that takes the entirety of not only His teachings but what is relevant to the situation (which you have only done in part) and God's will in a given situation, has the opportunity of understanding what is righteous in a given instance. An example is in the very verse that you stated. What does "resist" evil mean? Does it mean that you condone it? Allow it to happen if you have the ability to stop it? There have been attacks in the UK, with what I would consider insane people cutting people down in the streets. What do you do in that instance and you with the ability to stop it? Sorry I'm not a pacifist. At least not completely.

So, continue to do and believe as you do, but understand that you can't isolate certain parts of Scripture, to come up with standard by which you will live, and not have bumps in the road to deal with. Even smoothing out parts of the road with the entirety of Scripture won't guarantee that you won't have issues, but at least you are arming yourself with as much as is available and not with just the ones that justify this or that.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

Give me the other side then Nick,thats what i've been asking for all along, i want to know what you believe and how those beliefs enabled you to vote for Trump, i did try to wind this down as i realise this is off thread and was going to ask the question "Can you be Conservative and a Christian", but as usual discussions have a life of their own,..... what does "do not resist evil mean", well combined with turning the other cheek when struck and loving, praying for and blessing your enemy, it seems to me the conclusion is Christ commanding his followers to be pacifists, but what do you believe then,...... and i agree completely with your point about isolating scripture, and for sure there are so many bumps in the road, mainly caused by my not wanting to accept Christs teachings, of understanding what hes saying but then putting my own spin on it, sort of i know he said this, but he surely didn't mean we lived like that, thinking that i know best, that i can bend and corrupt his teachings to suit myself and make things easy, that i can sew the new patch of my faith onto the old cloth of my existing life, trouble is we all know what happens then.

 

[Bill]

Hello Bill,
I understand where he's coming from brother. He's pretty much has already made the observation that "Conservative" no longer exist in the UK, except in some minor instances. Not too surprising to me. It helped that I was stationed in the UK for a couple of years. Spent 4 years in Germany as well, before the Wall came down, so I really don't know how bad it's gotten since then, with the new influx of fellow Germans (East), as well as the "immigration" issues they're having to combat. So, my total of 13 years in Europe, along with my immigrant background of my family in the U.S.A., I believe has opened me up to seeing things a little bit differently than many people see them. Also, don't let me get into what Christ has done in my life and the affect on how I see the World differently!!!!!!! :smile:

My focus is really on the Lord now a days, and family. The Geo-Political going on's are not something I dig into as much as I used to. Takes too much time and bares little fruit.

With the Love of Christ Jesus Brother Bill!
YBIC
Nick
<><

My friend, i hold no ill will for Rad or any of our brothers and sisters. And when i say brothers and sisters im refering to all of mankind, not just a few who feel privileged. You see we who have been given much, much is expected from us.
And for Christians to be only consumed with where only they are going, is unChristian. Did the Apostles worry about tomarrow, did they discuss endlessly abour escapting this planet.
my ministry is not for me, but bringing understanding and Gods love to others

 

[Sue D.]

Bill -- to interject a thought or two. Assuming you're speaking as a born-again believer, then our true brothers and sisters are other born-again believers. And not everyone Is in that category. Our mission as long as God sees fit to keep us here -- is to reach the non-believer with the Gospel unto Salvation -- whoever is willing to listen and then accept God's gift of salvation. And , unfortunately not everyone is going to do that.

Your comment about 'did they discuss endlessly about escaping this planet.' Are you referring to the rapture that's going to happen in the future at some point?! That event is when Jesus Christ is going to be coming back in the air and call His saints up to Himself. The dead in Christ will rise first and then all other living believers at that time will be taken up also. And That event is something we Can be looking forward to. We will continue to have opportunities to share Christ with others.

And God Could also decide that he's going to take 'us' to be with Him tomorrow. People die all the time in car wrecks - plane crashes - sickness -- heart attacks -- strokes. My own husband died Oct 5 of last year -- 7 months ago Very unexpectedly. Cerebral hemmorage. He collapsed while in town and next thing I know -- in ER - he had a serious brain bleed and had very small chance of surviving. Even with emergency brain surgery -- he passed a couple of days later.

He was a believer, so we will be reunited in heaven. And That is the hope that All believers have.

It tends to bother me when people talk Only about God's love. Because there will be a final Judgement. those who Don't accept His gift of salvation From eternity in hell -- Will end up there. God's word tells mankind about that. in no uncertain terms. God Does have wrath and it Will be poured out on people. It was seen in the world-wide flood in Genesis. As well as to the people of Sodom and Gomorrah. God created this world and us and He's shown that He's very capable of destroying it. But He's Also shown us the power of His love. His only Son dying in our place at Calvary.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Give me the other side then Nick,thats what i've been asking for all along, i want to know what you believe and how those beliefs enabled you to vote for Trump, i did try to wind this down as i realise this is off thread and was going to ask the question "Can you be Conservative and a Christian", but as usual discussions have a life of their own,..... what does "do not resist evil mean", well combined with turning the other cheek when struck and loving, praying for and blessing your enemy, it seems to me the conclusion is Christ commanding his followers to be pacifists, but what do you believe then,...... and i agree completely with your point about isolating scripture, and for sure there are so many bumps in the road, mainly caused by my not wanting to accept Christs teachings, of understanding what hes saying but then putting my own spin on it, sort of i know he said this, but he surely didn't mean we lived like that, thinking that i know best, that i can bend and corrupt his teachings to suit myself and make things easy, that i can sew the new patch of my faith onto the old cloth of my existing life, trouble is we all know what happens then.

Hello Rad,
Would you appreciate it or gain from it as much if I gave it to you or you searched it out for yourself? You don't acquire a practice of doing things by having others do it for you. Just as your growth in the Word is not done just by hearing, but also by studying, seeking and then applying those very things in your life. Unless the sole purpose is to argue points that you've already established as true, which then you would know that unless done as unbiased as possible would leave one on shaky ground.

I thought immediately upon reading the initial thread the same as you have just mentioned. Placing Conservative in place of Liberal. :smile:
There are points that conflict and would have enjoyed discussing them with you, but not from a singular point of view on either of our parts. I'm not nor should you be here to herald the rightness of "Liberalism" or "Conservatism", but rather Christian thought, practice and most especially what His Word says in respect to a topic in question. Then so armed, we'd be able to look to Worldly points of view, be they Social or Political and in prayer know what aligns rightly with God's Will.

Like with the L/C discussion you desire to have. You also can't divide God's Word without looking at the entirety of it. Just separating the Words of Jesus found in the Gospels, and seeing them as taking priority in respect to the rest of the NT or OT for that matter, does not provide you a greater understanding, rather a biased one without the context needed to rightly divide Scripture and then make an informed decision.

That is for the very reason I acknowledge, but don't let either my upbringing, or flawed teachings from my earlier days affect how I come about determining the right/wrong of a topic. Too easy to be biased, by values that appear to resonate with Christianity, but in truth are but poor substitutes for Scripture that has been understood Spiritually.

You must take the entirety of Scripture when making decisions and what is perceived as only being the specific Words of Jesus verses the rest. It's all from Jesus. That is what many don't rightly consider. Just because they were revealed and imparted by the Apostles, which includes Paul. Does not lessen them in authority.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><