On this we agree. John 6:29 refers to work, singular. To believe in Christ is the chief work. James 2:14-25 describes the kind of 'works', plural, that follow the chief work to believe in Christ.
Contemporary Judaizers
- Thread starter NetChaplain
- Start date
On this we agree. John 6:29 refers to work, singular. To believe in Christ is the chief work. James 2:14-25 describes the kind of 'works', plural, that follow the chief work to believe in Christ.
You seem to be suggesting that Jesus was negligent in failing to tell us that extra works are required for salvation.
but the doctrine you follow fails in that the only works the thief on the cross did was to believe on Jesus and thus he was saved. That thief did the works of believing in Jesus, John 6:29. That thief obeyed God's will that we believe on Jesus, John 6:40.
The doctrine you follow suggests that those of us without deathbed salvation are required to do extra works above what that thief on the cross did. Such doctrines suggest that God is unjust demanding differing levels of works from each of us, for salvation.
Last edited:
That only applies to the thief on the cross. Are you a thief on the cross? are you someone with a deathbed salvation? If yes, then you can use these examples. If not, then it doesn't apply to you. Everyone's salvation story is different. We don't expect a young plant to bear fruit. We expect a mature plant to bear fruit. If a young plant has no fruit, we cannot hold it to account. But if a mature plant has no fruit, it is held to account. It seems you are using the thief on the cross as an excuse for not having any works. Luke 12:48 says " From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded;" The amount of works God expects from us is proportional to the amount we have been given. You have to read more widely and consider the whole of scripture, rather than basing your doctrine on an isolated example. Another example is the prodigal son. From the prodigal son, God only required him to come home. The older brother complained that he worked much. This does not mean that God did not want the older brother to stop doing works. In Matt 20:4, some worked much, others worked less, everyone got the same amount of pay.
Last edited:
Your claim above contradicts scripture, which states many times that we are to believe on Jesus, just as that thief did.
The sin the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9.
This all contradicts your claims.
A Christian's fruit is Christ, the firstfruit.
1Cor 15:20
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits
You seem to be saying that believing on Jesus is not enough for salvation, and that works of the law must be added.
.
All the above points to the gospel of Christ, and not to works of the law as you incorrectly assume.
Note your quote of Luke 12:47,48
And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.
Christians know God's will. His will is that we believe on Jesus, John 6:40.
But you keep trying to mix works of the law with the gospel of grace. This is unbelief. This is denying God's will. You cannot mix grace with works of the law.
Rom 11:6
if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
Christian homosexuals in committed relationships believe in Jesus. Are they doing God's will? Yes or no. Two Christians living in adultery, they believe in Jesus, are they doing God's will? Yes or no.
Last edited:
Firstly, what is God's will?
John 6:40
this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
1Thess 4:3
this is the will of God, your sanctification (which we have when we believe on Jesus, Heb 10:10): that you should abstain from sexual immorality (with Hagar, who is symbolic of righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24).
Now that we know what scripture says is God's will, lets move on to the separate issue of your focus on a Christian's lifestyle.
I agree that Christians should not be into homosexuality or adultery. The reality is however, that none of us is perfect in behavior. And no Christian is going to profit from doing wrong. God disciplines us should we do wrong. And should any Christian ignore God's discipline this no doubt hinders their growth.
So, James, as your focus is upon obedience to the law (10 commandments), is your obedience to the law perfect ( as is required under the law, James 2:10)?
I have yet to come across any legalist who is actually keeping the law. They all fail. This then leaves legalists in a position where the doctrine they follow suggests that some minimum standard of behavior/lifestyle is required as evidence whether someone is truly saved or not.
Unfortunately for the legalists they can never offer any scripture to define this minimum standard of behavior. Some legalists try to describe the cut off point as "habitual" behavior, but then they cannot even describe what "habitual" is, as there is no scripture to define this. The legalists are clearly preaching an ambiguous/vague doctrine that has no support from scripture.
James, are you also saying that "habitual" behavior is the determining factor of whether someone is saved or not?
I'm curious though about how the doctrine you follow answers for the fact that some lifestyles that legalists criticize are not even listed in the 10 commandments. Drunkenness and homosexuality, for example, are not in the 10 commandments. As legalists always refer to the 10 commandments as the measure of righteousness, why do they then add drunkenness and homosexuality to it as well? Are the 10 commandments an imperfect list and hence due to such lack, other wrongful behaviors were added later on?
God has many wills, one to believe in Christ, another to keep His commands. 1 Thess 4:3 plainly says it is God's will that we abstain from sexual immorality. Therefore God's will is not only to believe in Him, but also to keep one of the 10 commandments against adultery. Your point that God's will is only to believe in Christ is easily disproved. A Christian in sexually immoral lifestyle is therefore not in God's will.
God put His law within and therefore I do indeed keep His law perfectly, yet not I but Christ in me. If you do not keep the commandments, how are you going to enter life?
You gave the example of the thief on the cross. However I can also given an example that shows we must keep the commandments: Matt 19:17-21, Jesus says that we must keep the commandments to enter life. Jesus never says "believe in me, and don't worry about keeping the commandments". Surely it is God who sets the minimum standard of behavior? He is afterall the judge. And it is different for each person. God seems to overlook some sins and yet holds others to account. To the rich man he says "sell your riches", to another, maybe He says something different. What was stopping this rich man from entering life, was his greed which is breaking one of the 10 commandments.
The 10 commandments are only a summary - they do not cover all the details. Commands against homosexuality and drunkeness are in other places.
Last edited:
I've quoted many scriptures all confirming that our works are to believe on Jesus. This is God's will. None of these scriptures mention anything about keeping the law.
I've also quoted scriptures confirming that we cannot mix grace with works of the law.
But the doctrine you follow rejects scriptures and states the opposite, that works of the law must be mixed with grace.
The doctrine you propose is the sexual immorality that 1Thess 4:3 and other scriptures warn against.
Christians are saved by grace. We're married to Christ. Therefore we should not fornicate with Hagar, who is symbolic of righteousness by works of the law, as described in Gal 4:24.
Anyone mixing grace with works of the law is in spiritual fornication with Hagar, and this is against God's will, 1Thess 4:3
those mixing grace with works of the law are spiritually drunk with the wine of fornication with Hagar ( righteousness by works of the law).
Rev 17:1,2
Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made DRUNK with the WINE OF HER FORNICATION”
what I understand from your claim here is that you seem to be saying that Christ's sacrifice was not sufficient to make you righteous and holy, and that obedience to the law is required to complete this.
Note what the man says to Jesus in Matt 19:20
The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. WHAT DO I STILL LACK?”
And what did Jesus say in Matt 19: 21
Jesus said to him, “IF YOU WANT TO BE PERFECT go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, FOLLOW ME”
How are we made PERFECT?
Its by Christ's sacrifice. And we receive this when we believe on him.
Heb 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Jesus said the following, which contradicts your claim above
John 3:16,17
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
When Jesus was asked what works we should do he answered that we should believe on him, John 6:29.
we see consistently in scripture that the law is never added to grace. In fact they cannot be mixed together, as confirmed in Rom 11:6.
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
You claim here that our salvation is judged by our lifestyle/behavior, and that God demands different standards from each of us. This contradicts scriptures. It also paints God as unjust, demanding different unspecified levels of obedience to the law from each person in order to enter into life.
We all know there are no scriptures specifying differing levels of obedience for different individuals.
Hence we see that the doctrine you propose is very ambiguous and with no scriptural support.
James, God loves you and in His word we see that He calls upon all who mix grace with works of the law to repent of their dead works, and to believe on Jesus instead.
Last edited:
1 Thess 4:3 is not about spiritual fornication it is about sexual immorality. That is one of the 10 commandments. Therefore it is God's will for us to believe in Christ and to abstain from sexual immorality which means we must obey God in our lifestyle.
No, I'm saying only in Christ are we perfect and because of Him we keep the law perfectly (1 Cor 1:30).
You believe that believers do not commit sin. So you must also believe that believers keep God's law perfectly. Because not committing sin implies full obedience to God's law. Sin is breaking the law (1 John 3:4).
You are just picking and choosing the words in that verse that suits your doctrine. Notice that the rich man had to sell his riches before he could follow Christ. That is, the man had to deal with his idolatry (one of the commandments) before following Christ.
Re: "We all know there are no scriptures specifying differing levels of obedience for different individuals. "
In Luke 19:13 and onward, Jesus rewards each individual according to their level of obedience. Some rule over 5 cities, some 10 cities.
John 10:14 implies that Jesus knows his sheep individually and intimately, he knows what He requires from each one of them.
Christians who know God's law also know His grace and the Gospel much more than those who do not know God's law. We cannot know His grace without knowing the law, because the law shows us our unrighteousness (Romans 3:5).
Last edited:
Unfortunately your focus is only on physical things and you neglect the more important spiritual side. In doing this you misunderstand scripture.
God's will in 1Thess 4:3, is for our sanctification. This we have through Christ's sacrifice (Heb 10:10), when we believe on Jesus.
believing on Jesus are the works that we are to do, John 6:29.
Believing on Jesus results in everlasting life, John 3:16.
Believing on Jesus means that believers are born of God, 1John 5:1.
and we overcome when we believe on Jesus, 1John 5:5.
Christians are saved by grace when we believe on Jesus.
Christians are married to Christ.
Why would you then avoid any reference to this most important marriage and instead focus only on physical sexual immorality?
scripture is spiritually discerned 1Cor 2:14.
Why then would you want to focus only on physical things when discerning scripture?
scripture tells us that grace cannot be mixed with works of the law, Rom 11:6.
And righteousness by works of the law is symbolically described as Hagar, Gal 4:24. Hagar (righteousness by works of the law) is the alternative to grace (where our faith is counted for righteousness). Christians are married to Christ and should not be fornicating with Hagar.
This is the sexual immorality that 1Thess 4:3, tells us to abstain from. And we see similar warnings throughout scripture.
Again I suggest that you should not avoid this most important marriage, with Christ. You only hurt yourself in avoiding the spiritual message in scriptures.
You seem to be inconsistent in your claims. Here you say that Christians keep the law perfectly, but in another post you said that the level of obedience to the law that God expects of us will vary from person to person.
Can you explain which it is?
Not committing sin does imply full obedience to the law, as you say.
Jesus did this.
And it's Christ in us that God see's, hence in this regard Christians are in the position of being seen as having full obedience to the law.
So as Christians already have this righteousness, in Christ, why are you then still judging righteousness by deeds of the law?
As our faith is counted for righteousness, then that means we are no longer judged under the law to determine whether we are righteous. Christians are not under the law, Rom. 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:24, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9.
whatever the law says it says to those under the law, Rom 3:19.
So we see that it's the legalists who are in sexual immorality with Hagar, who the law applies to. And they will be judged as guilty of all the law. The legalists are workers of iniquity.
I'll answer your other points on the next post to keep from making them too long.
Last edited:
You seem determined to bring yourself and others back under the law for righteousness. You pick and choose words in verses to suit the doctrine you follow. Your focus is only on the law for righteousness and thus you neglect all the scriptures that contradict your desire to be under the law.
In Matt 19 that young man had kept the law, just as you claim you do. And he said to Jesus "What do I still LACK".
But you contradict this and say that the young man did not keep the commandments.
Paul also kept the law, just like that young man did. Are you saying Paul was lying too?
Phil 3:6-9
touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
I'll get to you other point in the next post.
.
As you claim that we each have differing levels of obedience to the law that we must attain then it's very important that we each know what these specific levels of obedience are. You can't just leave everybody in the dark being clueless of what target we have to hit.
Your suggestion that God is this ambiguous in His message to us, is concerning.
The gospel is a straight forward, specific message. Believe on Jesus.
But you contradict this and say that God has expectations of some level of obedience to the law for each of us, but He won't tell each of us the specifics of what level of obedience to the law He expects us to achieve. Can you see that this is a ludicrous message?
Here you refer to the parable of the talents. But you misunderstand it.
Consider the context of this parable as given in Matt 25:31-44
It refers to the kingdom of Heaven.
And for context, note Matt 25:29
For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away.
Consider also this same message in Matt 13:10-12.
And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.
Now consider also Matt 13:19
When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.
When we consider the context from scripture we see a very different message from you are suggesting in terms of obedience to the law. In stead we see that it refers to the gospel of Christ.
Now consider also Matt 25:31-36
“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.
Here we see the separating of the sheep from the goats. This is all based on whether we believe on Jesus or we are fornicating with Hagar, judging righteousness by works of the law.
Consider the following.
Regarding Matt 25; the sheep and goats, below are some scriptures to give the spiritual context to what is feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, taking in the stranger, etc.
What is the spiritual food/drink that mankind is in need of?
It's Christ Jesus.
1 Cor 10:3-4
And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Who are those in spiritual prison?
It's those who are without Christ.
Isa 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
And what is the state of mankind without Christ?
It's sick, and needing to hear the gospel of Christ.
Isa 1:5-6
Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.
And how are the naked clothed?
Isa 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, My soul shall be joyful in my God; For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,
And who is the stranger?
Eph 2:12
that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Eph 2:19
Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
So we see scripture speaking in spiritual terms regarding preaching the gospel of grace. And in doing the works of believing in Jesus, John 6:29, Christians also let their light shine preaching the gospel of Christ to spiritually feed, clothe, heal and set free, the lost.
Matt 5:14-16
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works (believing in Jesus, John 6:29), and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
There are many verses regarding the marriage of Christ and His Bride, the church. Given that earthly marriage is a picture of this - even more reason to keep the commandment regarding sexual immorality! However 1 Thess 4:3 is not one of these "spiritual verses", but a very practical one.
1 Thess 4:3 plainly says that keeping the commandment regarding sexual immorality is God's will for our sanctification. It has nothing to do with Hagar as a symbol - such a view is not found in any reputable Bible commentary.
Last edited:
God is the judge and the decision is up to Him, and to our own master we stand or fall (Romans 14:4). The Bible says He knows His sheep and they know Him and they know His voice, and that God is our Light, it also says the Holy Spirit teaches us all things. Therefore your suggestion that everybody is clueless and "in the dark" is not true according to the revelation of the Bible. That is only true for those who are not a sheep and don't have the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit shines His light in our hearts and reveals to us how we should obey Him. That is part of our experience in following Christ.
Discipleship doesn't stop after "believing on Jesus", it continues throughout our lifetime in a lifetime of obedience and following Christ.
Last edited:
DHC
Member
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2013
- Messages
- 1,002
Hello James.
Sorry James that I did not reply sooner but I have not been home for three days.
May we continue?
When I asked you to be clear and precise regarding what you believe, you again
contradicted yourself James. You first stated that you agreed with me that we
were not under the law, you said 'I am not under the law'. I was happy to see that
you realized that Gentiles were not under the law. Paul states that we Gentiles are
not under the law! Make no mistake regarding the ten commandments because
the ten commandments are the written law.
Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
Then you stated that we are, 'expected to keep the law'. Sure appears to me that
you are claiming that the Gentiles are under the law. How James, am I expected
to interpret your statement 'we are expected to keep the law'? Keeping the law
James, is placing yourself under the law. If you read the written law of Mt Sinai
and try to obey that law, then you are under the old covenant, written law.
You seem to have issues with the following verse;
Hebrews 8:10
I will put My laws into their minds, And I will write them on their hearts.
You read the verse above and immediately assume that 'My laws' are the
ten commandments. Why you make this association I have no idea James.
The verse does not say 'My laws' are the ten commandments! How about
we pay more attention to the letter to the Hebrews.
Hebrews 7:12
For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change
of law also.
You have been notified by the Holy Spirit that there is a change of law.
Yet for some reason you have not noticed this change in the law. You were
told that the new law is written into your mind but for some reason you
persist in attempting to keep the ten commandments. And keep reading the
written law and keep failing to obey this written law. For some reason you
have not connected the dots.
Hebrews 7:18-19
For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because
of its weakness and uselessness (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other
hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
Clearly James we are told that the former commandment was weak and useless.
That is because the written commandments have no power behind them to
enable obedience. The laws written into our hearts are not the ten commandments
James. The ten commandments condemn us.
If you covet your neighbors oxen then you are following the impulses of your fleshly
desires. This means that you are not a new creation in Christ because you are still
being controlled by your old nature. The law demonstrates what the works of the
flesh are and we cannot obey the law. If you resist the desire to covet that oxen James,
it has no bearing on your spiritual state. You are simply trying to resist the powerful urges
of the flesh which cannot be resisted. Paul already stated this dilemma between the
spiritual mind and the flesh.
Romans 7:22-24
For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law
in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me
a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am!
Obedience to the written law is impossible, self righteousness cannot be obtained.
Obedience to any written law is futile because your flesh cannot obey. You were
never told by the apostles to follow the ten commandments. Never do the apostles
state that the Gentiles must obey the law. On the contrary we are specifically told
to practice the following;
Galatians 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness.
We are New Creations in Christ, James. We have the Holy Spirit and the fruit of the
Spirit are listed above. You have been delivered from the law of sin and death.
Persevere is producing the fruit and leave the written law alone. If you desire to
obey Jesus and the commandments then read the following;
John 13:34
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you,
that you also love one another.
Loving others is not about obeying the ten commandments James. Loving others is not
achieved by obeying the commandment not to steal. Not committing adultery has no
relationship to love. Obedience to the law does not lead to love! The attempted obedience
to the law is a selfish pursuit, you are seeking your own holiness through your own efforts
of legal works. You are not seeking the enrichment of others in Christ. You are obsessed with
your own legal holiness.
Incorrect James, the commandment concerns 'adultery' not the wider teaching of the abstinence
from sexual immorality. Paul is telling the Thessalonians what the Holy Spirit told the apostles
at the Jerusalem council (Acts 15). That is why Paul uses the phrase 'sexual immorality'.
Could you please explain how you see 'adultery' when I see 'sexual immorality.
Why do you convert the deeds of the flesh into the written commandments?
You were not raised under the law, so why do you speak as though you have been
raised under the law?
You are not an Israelite but you speak as though you are an Israelite!
You are not under the law but you must obey the law???
Last edited:
DHC, maybe you can explain how the law written on our hearts, is going to contradict the 10 commandments in any way? Is God now going to permit idolatry and murder since the law was written on our hearts?
Sin is defined as breaking the law (1 John 3:4). You nullify the law through faith, when you should be upholding the law as good (Rom 3:31). Therefore if you discourage keeping the law, you are in fact encouraging sin and this is a clear difference between antinomianism and sound doctrine - one rejects the law and thereby encourages sin, yet the other upholds the law as good (Rom 3:31), yet discourages sin by keeping the law in spirit and not in letter.
The law hasn't changed, but how we keep it has changed. We do not keep it according to letters but according to the Spirit. I do not believe in keeping the written commandments, I believe in keeping the moral law, which is the spirit of the 10 commandments. We keep this law not from our own efforts, but spontaneously from the law written on our hearts. This is the law of the Spirit of life (Romans 8:2) which makes us free from the law of sin and death (the inward struggle between our good mind and our sinful flesh). Where our effort is required, is to abide in Christ and live and walk in the Spirit, so we do not hinder the law of the Spirit of life working in our hearts. It seems you have missed the aspect of the law of the Spirit working in our hearts, as you do not mention it in your posts. By the law of the Spirit, is how we can keep the law, and yet not be under it. I can see that keeping the law yet not being under it, is a new concept for you, because you have not yet understood the law of the Spirit. Ezekiel 36:27 "And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules." So the Spirit within us, does not make us lawless, it causes us to walk in (not under) God's laws and be careful to obey Him. Instead, what I see from your posts and Barny's, is the idea that only faith in Christ matters, and obedience to God's laws is not required, which contradicts Ezekiel 36:27.
To summarize, in the old testament, God's people were walking under God's written law, and keeping it by self effort. In the new testament, God's people are walking in God's spiritual law, and are keeping it by the law of the Spirit of life. Yet God's spiritual law does not contradict His written law. Is the Spirit now going to permit adultery when the 10 commandments forbids it?
Are you trying to say that adultery is not sexual immorality and vice versa? This is truly "splitting hairs". The word is porneia, it covers any sexual sin. See 1 Cor 6:18. The 10 commandments are a summary of the whole law of Moses, and the word adultery is in a general sense to cover a range of sexual immorality (not just sex to one whom you are not married), and the specific particular sins (bestiality, incest, homosexuality, sex before marriage etc) are in the finer details of the law.
Last edited:
You have shown nothing here to support your claim about 1Thess 4:3.
But we see often in the Bible that the foremost context in scripture regarding sexual immorality/fornication/adultery, is in relation to a Christian's marriage to Christ.
Consider Eph 5:29-32.
For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church.For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.“For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Consider also 1Cor 5:1 & 6& 7.
It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
[Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
Again we see here that it speaks of spiritual fornication with Hagar, who is symbolic of righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24.
The "father's wife" being Hagar/righteousness by works of the law.
And the "father" is the devil, as Jesus described for the legalistic Pharisees in John 8:44.
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do"
And the above is confirmed in 1Cor 6,7 speaking about "leaven".
What is leaven?
It's the doctrine of the legalists, which is righteousness by works of the law (fornication with Hagar).
Jesus confirmed this in Matt 16:11,12
How is it you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread?—but to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” Then they understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
As confirmation that leaven refers to doctrines of righteousness by works of the law, consider Gal 5:4,9.
You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace......
........You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you. A little leaven leavens the whole lump.
Consider also Rev 17:1,2.
Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.”
Here again we see fornication spoken of. And clearly it is not referring to a physical relationship. Those in this fornication are even described as DRUNK with the WINE of FORNICATION.
We all know there is no physical wine made from physical fornication. Clearly it refers to spiritual fornication, in a spiritual relationship.
So scripture describes doctrines based on the law for righteousness ( much like what you are preaching) as "fornication/adultery/sexual immorality", and also as "leaven", and even as "drunkeness".
And all such terms are used in regard to a spiritual relationship.
Your fixation upon only a physical perspective is blinding you to the truth.
You have yet to provide any scripture to support this claim.
God is specific in His gospel message. We all know that we are to believe on Jesus.
But you claim that God will not be just as specific regarding the individual level of obedience to the law that He requires of us to enter into His kingdom.
As you have no scripture to support such doctrine, then clearly it is error.
Scripture consistently warns against bringing oneself under the law. Sadly you ignore God's warnings and persist under the law.
As you preach works of the law I think you should take note James 3:1-11.
My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body. Indeed, we put bits in horses’ mouths that they may obey us, and we turn their whole body. Look also at ships: although they are so large and are driven by fierce winds, they are turned by a very small rudder wherever the pilot desires. Even so the tongue is a little member and boasts great things.
See how great a forest a little fire kindles! And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell. For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and creature of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by mankind. But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
With it we bless (love) our God and Father, and with it we curse (judge/condemn under the law) men, who have been made in the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceed blessing (love/grace) and cursing (judgement/condemnation under the law). My brethren, these things ought not to be so. Does a spring send forth fresh water (love/grace) and bitter (judgement/condemnation under the law) from the same opening?
With the above scripture in mind you should also consider Rom 11:6.
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
We cannot mix grace with works of the law, and anyone who does teach such doctrines will receive a stricter judgement.
We see some of the churches in Rev 2 were mixing grace with works of the law or else associating with those who do. In each case God called upon them to repent.
Last edited:
Yes, sin is transgression of the law.
But note Rom 3:19
whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law
Are Christians under the law?
Answer: No, as confirmed in scripture, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:24, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9.
So regarding sin/transgression of the law, we see the following scriptures.
Rom 4:15
where there is no law there is no transgression.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing (which includes sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
This is what one would expect a Pharisee/Sadducee to say.
But, to answer your question above, we enter into life by believing on Jesus.
DHC
Member
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2013
- Messages
- 1,002
Hello James.
There are also other definitions of sin in the scripture. For some reason you prefer
the legal definition of sin. John was an apostle to the Jews unlike Paul who was an
apostle to the Gentiles. So we expect John to define sin as law breaking. Whereas
Paul uses the deeds of the flesh to identify sin for those without the law.
Now I wonder whether you have been reading my posts? I never nullified the law James,
I said the law brings the knowledge of sin. The law can be used to identfy the flesh nature
of humanity. You are confusing me with Barny, Barny and I do differ in what we believe
James. I am a Gentile and not under the law, the Israelites were under the law.
I certainly am not encouraging anyone to sin, James. A Gentile is taught that the
deeds of the flesh are sin. Hence James, a Gentile is encouraged to walk in the Spirit.
I will repeat what sowing to the Spirit involves in case you did not read my previous
post.
Galatians 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness.
These are what a Gentile concentrates on James, this is called walking in the Spirit.
We take a positive approach to our new life in Christ and are far more concerned
with the spiritual life. Putting into practice what the Holy Spirit inspires us to do.
Here is where your walk in Christ is derailed James. You have taken the written
law which you were never under. Then you are placing yourself under this same
law and calling it spiritual law. Which you must obey of course because you are
under the law. Walking by the Spirit is not fixating on your sin. Walking in the
Spirit is what I mentioned above.
James you completly missed the boat with this comment. I will explain this with'
a simple example.
"Thou shall not murder", if you are practicing being a gentle person with everyone
then it is unlikely that you would kill someone. That is called a fruit of the Spirit.
See how we fulfill this law by the simple implementation of the Spirit within.
Even though a Gentile is not under the law.
Yet again you are assuming that you are a descendant of an Israelite and must keep the law.
You never have been under the law and as a Christian you also are not under the law. Why
do you persist in the declaration that you somehow fulfill the law when you never needed to fulfill
the law. Christ fulfills the law and through his Spirit we have fulfilled the law. Hence, there
is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus who walk by the Spirit.
God is talking to Israel in the verse above not to the Gentiles.
The opposite is true, the Jews never could keep the law. Law magnifies sin.
Christ is the solution to your dilemma James. If you have problems with sin then you
need to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh.
Adultery is one of many deeds of the flesh. Gentiles have been warned not to commit
sexual immorality (pornea), which includes adultery, James. Still you quote from
the ten commandments, which is the law. Still you do not understand that you were
never under the law of Mt Sinai. Your still in slavery to the law and you are not free.
Show me the scripture to support the statement above. The word adultery is not
in the general sense because the law is specific. Adultery means only adultery.
This is theology and is not in the pages of the scripture.
Love is a fruit of the Spirit and the Holy Spirit enables you to love everyone. That
is one of the wonders of the power of the Holy Spirit. God takes care of everything.
Ephesians 4
4 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the
calling with which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience,
showing tolerance for one another in love, 3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit
in the bond of peace.
You read the verses above and still do not recognize the fruit of the Spirit.
That is our walk James and not the legal walk.
Last edited:
