Contemporary Judaizers

[Barny]

1 Thess 4:3 plainly says that keeping the commandment regarding sexual immorality is God's will for our sanctification.

Let's consider 1Thess 4:3.
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

And how are we sanctified?
Heb 10:10
By that will we HAVE BEEN sanctified THROUGH the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE for all.

So when we believe on Jesus ( our works that shows our faith, John 6:29,), then we're sanctified.

And how can we lose this sanctification?
We turn to deeds of the law to determine our righteousness. In other words, we fornicate with Hagar, who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24.

Hence we see 1Thess 4:3 confirming that, according to God's will, under grace we're sanctified, but under the law we're not sanctified.

 

[james1523]

There are also other definitions of sin in the scripture. For some reason you prefer
the legal definition of sin. John was an apostle to the Jews unlike Paul who was an
apostle to the Gentiles. So we expect John to define sin as law breaking. Whereas
Paul uses the deeds of the flesh to identify sin for those without the law.

That is incorrect. 1 John was written in Ephesus, and primarily for a gentile audience, since it contains few Old Testament or Jewish phrases.
John is speaking of the principle of lawlessness, breaking God's moral laws, that exist for everyone, Jew or Gentile.

I certainly am not encouraging anyone to sin, James. A Gentile is taught that the
deeds of the flesh are sin. Hence James, a Gentile is encouraged to walk in the Spirit.
I will repeat what sowing to the Spirit involves in case you did not read my previous
post.

Galatians 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness.

These are what a Gentile concentrates on James, this is called walking in the Spirit.
We take a positive approach to our new life in Christ and are far more concerned
with the spiritual life. Putting into practice what the Holy Spirit inspires us to do.

In which commands does the walk in the Spirit differ from the 10 commandments? Does walking in the Spirit allow adultery, for example, whereas the 10 commandments forbids it? No, the new testament command to not lust , is not replacing the old law not to commit adultery, but complementing it and lifting it even higher.

Here is where your walk in Christ is derailed James. You have taken the written
law which you were never under. Then you are placing yourself under this same
law and calling it spiritual law. Which you must obey of course because you are
under the law. Walking by the Spirit is not fixating on your sin. Walking in the
Spirit is what I mentioned above.

The Bible says God writes His law on our hearts. Therefore the law is now in us, we are not under it, and I have never said we are under it. Can you please tell us if this is a different law to the laws given in the 10 commandments? Does one approve of adultery and the other forbid it?

Yet again you are assuming that you are a descendant of an Israelite and must keep the law.
You never have been under the law and as a Christian you also are not under the law. Why
do you persist in the declaration that you somehow fulfill the law when you never needed to fulfill
the law. Christ fulfills the law and through his Spirit we have fulfilled the law. Hence, there
is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus who walk by the Spirit.

Let us consider what it means to have fulfilled the law. Matt 5 teaches that Christ fulfilled the Law but did not abolish it. It means the law is not just to not practice adultery, but also not to lust. To not just not murder, but also not to hate. The law of the new covenant is much higher than the law of Moses. Jesus did not come to abolish the law of Moses. The new law is actually the standard of the law of Moses lifted even higher. If our righteousness is not higher than the law of Moses, we can't enter the kingdom of heaven. The new law continues until the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ and even beyond that into the new heavens and new earth.

God is talking to Israel in the verse above not to the Gentiles.

It also applies to the Gentiles, since the Gentiles also receive God's Spirit.

Adultery is one of many deeds of the flesh. Gentiles have been warned not to commit
sexual immorality (pornea), which includes adultery, James. Still you quote from
the ten commandments, which is the law. Still you do not understand that you were
never under the law of Mt Sinai. Your still in slavery to the law and you are not free.

We are to keep the new law which is the old law uplifted into the law of the kingdom. To enter the kingdom of heavens we need a righteousness that exceeds that of the law of Moses, which also includes our thoughts and heart's intent. Belief in Christ (John 3:3) is the starting point for our Christian life, but we only get to see the kingdom. We we will not enter into the kingdom of heavens unless our righteousness exceeds the Pharisees - in thought, word and deed. Also see Matt 5:22 ' And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.'

Show me the scripture to support the statement above. The word adultery is not
in the general sense because the law is specific. Adultery means only adultery.
This is theology and is not in the pages of the scripture.

Love is a fruit of the Spirit and the Holy Spirit enables you to love everyone. That
is one of the wonders of the power of the Holy Spirit. God takes care of everything.

Ephesians 4
4 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the
calling with which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience,
showing tolerance for one another in love, 3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit
in the bond of peace.

You read the verses above and still do not recognize the fruit of the Spirit.
That is our walk James and not the legal walk.

You are splitting hairs again over the meaning of adultery versus sexual immorality. They both mean the same thing effectively, and in the new commandments Christ added the law against lust.

Matt 5:19 says that we must have the highest standard of moral living in order to be great in God's kingdom. These are the words of Christ Himself. The highest standard of morality is the result of living according to the law of the Spirit of life.

A more complete list of new laws is given here ,some are from the 10 commandments, and there are additional ones (eg drunkenness)

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9-10:26

 

[DHC]

We are to keep the new law which is the old law uplifted into the law of the kingdom. To enter the kingdom of heavens we need a righteousness that exceeds that of the law of Moses, which also includes our thoughts and heart's intent. Belief in Christ (John 3:3) is the starting point for our Christian life, but we only get to see the kingdom. We we will not enter into the kingdom of heavens unless our righteousness exceeds the Pharisees - in thought, word and deed. Also see Matt 5:22 ' And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.'

You are splitting hairs again over the meaning of adultery versus sexual immorality. They both mean the same thing effectively, and in the new commandments Christ added the law against lust.

Matt 5:19 says that we must have the highest standard of moral living in order to be great in God's kingdom. These are the words of Christ Himself. The highest standard of morality is the result of living according to the law of the Spirit of life.

Hello James.

You are splitting hairs again over the meaning of adultery versus sexual immorality. They both
mean the same thing effectively, and in the new commandments Christ added the law against lust.

Here is the verse that we are discussing James, for the sake of the readers.

27 You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’ but I say to you that
everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her
in his heart. (Matthew 5)

You said Christ added a law against lust in your abridged, spiritual, Mt Sinai Covenant.
Christ was not making a new law James but condemning the world. Christ was exposing
the cause of sexual sin which was the lust of the heart. Prior to the Catholic church, lust
meant desire, so if someone desired wealth then that person lusted after wealth. Thanks to
the Catholic Church, lust is associated with sexual desire among many modern churches.
Though this is not the correct definition. Trust the Catholics to alter the meaning of the
word. Both in the Greek and the English languages, the word 'lust' means 'desire'.

Adultery in the Old Covenant was the physical act and it carried a death penalty.
Jesus is explaining that adultery is caused by the lusts of the flesh. So any number
of sexual transgressions are all caused by the root problem which is the lust itself.
It is the desire itself that is the true problem and it is the desire that leads to the
transgression.

Jesus is stating in no uncertain terms that the desire itself is the problem and this
is what condemns you. So if in your mind you lust after a lady then the sexual sin has
already been committed. This is not a law as such that Jesus is legislating. Paul
correctly identifies what Jesus is really saying, that the flesh of humanity is corrupt.
The avoidance of any sin in itself does not address the foundational sinful flesh.
This is why Jesus utters the profound 'no one is good except God alone' (Mark 10:18)

Our fleshly desires cannot be transformed into clean and wholesome desires. We are
not good by nature and that is what the law has told us. The law has condemned us all
and there is no escape from the condemnation. Except through Jesus Christ in which
there is no condemnation.

A more complete list of new laws is given here ,some are from the 10 commandments,
and there are additional ones (eg drunkenness)

Talk about an under statement James 'there are additional ones'. There are over one
hundred of these additional rules, commandments, decrees or whatever you wish to
call them. The apostles were under no delusion as to what Jesus was telling them.
Here read what they said; 'They were even more astonished and said to Him, then
who can be saved?' (Mark 10:26). No one can be saved by the application of legal
obedience.

The law condemns and the law takes no prisoners, James. You were born into the
sinful flesh and it's desires. Law only compounds this inherent primary problem. Your
flesh is opposed to God and your flesh must be put to death.

In Christ we have already been baptized into His death. But we also daily die to our
own natural, fleshly inclinations. That is what being in the Spirit is all about. We have
a spiritual walk and that walk is contrary to what we really want to do. The full purpose
of the law is to turn you to Christ. The law is not some benchmark that you can run and
jump over. Law cannot be obeyed as this would render the sacrifice of Christ, null and void.

Jesus did not come to abolish the law. That is correct and when the law is correctly handled
the law achieves its purpose. The purpose of the law is to show you what your problem is
with God. You are not good and never will be good. Obedience to the law is an idealism that
has no root in reality.

Law demonstrates that you cannot obey the law, no matter how hard you try. Law is designed
to be broken often that is why the law is so specific. That is why when a person thinks they are
obeying some of the laws they get so full of their own self importance. Then they start pointing
the finger at others. Their prayer to God is 'why can't everyone be like me Lord, obedient!'.

Luke 18:9-14
And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous,
and viewed others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and
the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You
that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice
a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even
unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me,
the sinner!’ I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who
exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.

The poor Pharisee stumbled into one of the great sins, self righteousness. Which is the
complete opposite of the real purpose of the law. That is why after some successful
obedience in his own eyes of course. He magnified himself and looked down upon
the other filthy sinners that surrounded him.

The attitude of the Pharisee is the outcome of legal obedience. It is an unavoidable
consequence that if you behave well then you are offended by the behavior of others.
The cleaner our lifestyle the more we notice the lifestyles of those around us. I have
fallen for this so many times that I gave up on the pretense and accepted that I am
far worse than most people. I will never be good because by nature, I am not good
as Jesus said. By the Grace of God I take each step every day, these steps are not
my own natural steps. All Glory to the Lord Jesus Christ, because I know what dwells
deep within my corrupted nature. Never could I obey any laws because the laws
were never designed to be obeyed. Legal obedience produces self righteousness
which is probably the ugliest of offences.

 

[james1523]

Here is the verse that we are discussing James, for the sake of the readers.

27 You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’ but I say to you that
everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her
in his heart. (Matthew 5)

You said Christ added a law against lust in your abridged, spiritual, Mt Sinai Covenant.
Christ was not making a new law James but condemning the world. Christ was exposing
the cause of sexual sin which was the lust of the heart. Prior to the Catholic church, lust
meant desire, so if someone desired wealth then that person lusted after wealth. Thanks to
the Catholic Church, lust is associated with sexual desire among many modern churches.
Though this is not the correct definition. Trust the Catholics to alter the meaning of the
word. Both in the Greek and the English languages, the word 'lust' means 'desire'.

Adultery in the Old Covenant was the physical act and it carried a death penalty.
Jesus is explaining that adultery is caused by the lusts of the flesh. So any number
of sexual transgressions are all caused by the root problem which is the lust itself.
It is the desire itself that is the true problem and it is the desire that leads to the
transgression.

Jesus is stating in no uncertain terms that the desire itself is the problem and this
is what condemns you. So if in your mind you lust after a lady then the sexual sin has
already been committed. This is not a law as such that Jesus is legislating. Paul
correctly identifies what Jesus is really saying, that the flesh of humanity is corrupt.
The avoidance of any sin in itself does not address the foundational sinful flesh.
This is why Jesus utters the profound 'no one is good except God alone' (Mark 10:18)

Our fleshly desires cannot be transformed into clean and wholesome desires. We are
not good by nature and that is what the law has told us. The law has condemned us all
and there is no escape from the condemnation. Except through Jesus Christ in which
there is no condemnation.

The 10 commandments addresses the greatest sins, adultery is the greatest cause of the breaking of the marriage bond and breakup of families. But this does not exclude the other sins such as homosexuality etc. Although the word lust can be applied to other things, eg wealth, food etc, the context of lust that Jesus speaks of is adultery and so lust is referring to sexual lust. In particular, Jesus was addressing the way the Pharisees would put away their wives, and take other women, without being properly divorced.

Talk about an under statement James 'there are additional ones'. There are over one
hundred of these additional rules, commandments, decrees or whatever you wish to
call them. The apostles were under no delusion as to what Jesus was telling them.
Here read what they said; 'They were even more astonished and said to Him, then
who can be saved?' (Mark 10:26). No one can be saved by the application of legal
obedience.

The law condemns and the law takes no prisoners, James. You were born into the
sinful flesh and it's desires. Law only compounds this inherent primary problem. Your
flesh is opposed to God and your flesh must be put to death.

In Christ we have already been baptized into His death. But we also daily die to our
own natural, fleshly inclinations. That is what being in the Spirit is all about. We have
a spiritual walk and that walk is contrary to what we really want to do. The full purpose
of the law is to turn you to Christ. The law is not some benchmark that you can run and
jump over. Law cannot be obeyed as this would render the sacrifice of Christ, null and void.

Jesus did not come to abolish the law. That is correct and when the law is correctly handled
the law achieves its purpose. The purpose of the law is to show you what your problem is
with God. You are not good and never will be good. Obedience to the law is an idealism that
has no root in reality.

Law demonstrates that you cannot obey the law, no matter how hard you try. Law is designed
to be broken often that is why the law is so specific. That is why when a person thinks they are
obeying some of the laws they get so full of their own self importance. Then they start pointing
the finger at others. Their prayer to God is 'why can't everyone be like me Lord, obedient!'.

Luke 18:9-14
And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous,
and viewed others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and
the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You
that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice
a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even
unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me,
the sinner!’ I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who
exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.

The poor Pharisee stumbled into one of the great sins, self righteousness. Which is the
complete opposite of the real purpose of the law. That is why after some successful
obedience in his own eyes of course. He magnified himself and looked down upon
the other filthy sinners that surrounded him.

The attitude of the Pharisee is the outcome of legal obedience. It is an unavoidable
consequence that if you behave well then you are offended by the behavior of others.
The cleaner our lifestyle the more we notice the lifestyles of those around us. I have
fallen for this so many times that I gave up on the pretense and accepted that I am
far worse than most people. I will never be good because by nature, I am not good
as Jesus said. By the Grace of God I take each step every day, these steps are not
my own natural steps. All Glory to the Lord Jesus Christ, because I know what dwells
deep within my corrupted nature. Never could I obey any laws because the laws
were never designed to be obeyed. Legal obedience produces self righteousness
which is probably the ugliest of offences.

There is a big difference between legal obligation to the law for a person whose flesh has not died, an unbeliever in Christ (e.g. a Pharisee, Jew etc), and moral obligation to the law for a person whose flesh has died (a believer in Christ). If our flesh has died, then the self-righteousness has died also -therefore it is possible to keep the law without being self-righteous about it. But to say we do not keep the law, that is to say we are lawless. And we know that lawlessness is not approved by Christ in Matthew 7.

There are 3 ways a Christian can respond to the law. They can think they can keep the law in their own efforts, this is to fall from grace (the Galatians). They can realize they cannot keep the law, and then reject the law completely - this is to be lawless (antinomianism). Or they can realize they cannot keep the law because of the flesh problem, and yet keep Gods laws by dying to their self and living Christ (or living by the law of the Spirit of life) - this is what the Bible teaches.

We are no longer under the law of death and sin since Jesus freed us from the law of sin and death. Now we are under grace.
What does this mean? This means the thing which stopped us keeping the law, has now been taken away.
It is not the law which has been taken away, but the thing which stopped us from keeping it.
You have realized correctly that our flesh has died, yet you contradict yourself by saying we still cannot keep God's laws.
You have not realized that a person who cannot keep God's laws, is a person whose flesh has not yet died - they are still a slave to the inward law of sin and death.
But now that the flesh has been dealt with, now we can keep God's laws, and even to a higher degree - a standard which exceeds the Pharisees.
In Romans 7:22 Paul says he delights in God's law in his inner man. Paul has no problem with the law, he even delighted in it and loved it. His problem is the thing which stops him from keeping it.
Romans 12:9 Paul says Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good.What is good? The law is good (Rom 7:14-25).

In Matthew, Jesus upholds the law, He lifts the law even higher, He is not satisfied with the standard of the Pharisees, He says the law will not pass away, he says our position in the kingdom (least or greatest) will be determined by how we treat God's law.

Antinomianism is a heresy which says we are under no obligation to the moral law of God and that despite our sin, we can still have fellowship with God. This is countered by John in 1 John 1:6 which says that sin, which is breaking the law (1 John 3:4), affects our fellowship with God, for which we need to confess our sins. Fellowship with God and keeping the law go hand in hand. A person that says they are in fellowship with God yet lives in sin is deceived.
Even though Christians are not under law, we still have obligation to the moral law, and a very high standard at that - one which exceeds the Pharisees.
Contrary to a claim that we cannot keep the law, this is possible now that the issue of the flesh, sin and death has been dealt with, and now that we have God's moral law written on our heart, and the law of the Spirit of life operating within us.

 

[Barny]

Antinomianism is a heresy which says we are under no obligation to the moral law of God and that despite our sin, we can still have fellowship with God. This is countered by John in 1 John 1:6which says that sin, which is breaking the law (1 John 3:4), affects our fellowship with God, for which we need to confess our sins.

James, you continue to ignore the many scriptures that contradict the false doctrine you follow.

You quoted 1John 1:6
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

How do we know who is a liar, walking in darkness?
Note how a "liar" is defined in 1John 2:22-26
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning (the gospel of grace). If that which ye have heard from the beginning (the gospel of grace) shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

How does a liar (as defined in 1John 2:22,) deny that Jesus is the Christ?
Answer: They deny the gospel of grace.

And how do they deny the gospel of grace? .
Gal 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Scripture tells us that grace and works of the law cannot me mixed.
Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Anyone who chooses deeds of the law or even mixes grace with works of the law, such deny that Jesus is the Christ. Such are "liars" as defined in 1John 2:22

Note Heb 12:15-17.

Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Lest there be any fornicator (there's that spiritual word again), or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.


James, isn't it interesting that Esau is described as a "fornicator" here. Clearly its that spiritual context for "fornication", again.

And how does one fall from grace?
They fornicate with Hagar (symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24).
They turn to works of the law for righteousness, which includes even mixing grace with works of the law. Such deny that Jesus is the Christ. Such are "liars", as defined in 1John 2:22.

Note 1John 2:26.
These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

Those preaching works of the law or even mixing it with grace, are described in scripture as seeking to "seduce" others into denying that Jesus is the Christ.
Scripture gives many warnings about those who try to "seduce" us away from Christ. And these "seducers" are very subtle in their message that seeks to corrupt our minds from the simplicity that is in Christ. They subtly mix grace with works of the law.

2Cor 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

 

[james1523]

James, you continue to ignore the many scriptures that contradict the false doctrine you follow.

You quoted 1John 1:6
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

How do we know who is a liar, walking in darkness?
Note how a "liar" is defined in 1John 2:22-26
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning (the gospel of grace). If that which ye have heard from the beginning (the gospel of grace) shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

How does a liar (as defined in 1John 2:22,) deny that Jesus is the Christ?
Answer: They deny the gospel of grace.

And how do they deny the gospel of grace? .
Gal 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Scripture tells us that grace and works of the law cannot me mixed.
Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Anyone who chooses deeds of the law or even mixes grace with works of the law, such deny that Jesus is the Christ. Such are "liars" as defined in 1John 2:22

Note Heb 12:15-17.

Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Lest there be any fornicator (there's that spiritual word again), or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.


James, isn't it interesting that Esau is described as a "fornicator" here. Clearly its that spiritual context for "fornication", again.

And how does one fall from grace?
They fornicate with Hagar (symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24).
They turn to works of the law for righteousness, which includes even mixing grace with works of the law. Such deny that Jesus is the Christ. Such are "liars", as defined in 1John 2:22.

Note 1John 2:26.
These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

Those preaching works of the law or even mixing it with grace, are described in scripture as seeking to "seduce" others into denying that Jesus is the Christ.
Scripture gives many warnings about those who try to "seduce" us away from Christ. And these "seducers" are very subtle in their message that seeks to corrupt our minds from the simplicity that is in Christ. They subtly mix grace with works of the law.

2Cor 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

You can't really interpret scripture correctly. 1 John 2:22 addresses the heresy of Cerinthus, and has nothing to do with denying grace. Please consult a good bible commentary or concordance. Denying Christ means just that, denying His Person, His Sonship, His humanity. Those who lead others away from Christ are those who are against the law and promote lawlessness, because to know Christ is to obey His commands( 1 John 2:3). 1 John 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. "Commands" is plural, proving that faith in Christ is not the only command we are to keep, but also to obey the rest of His commands.

 

[B-A-C]

@james1523 and @NoHype

It's interesting, they concede that is a command you should love your neighbor, they even concede that sleeping with your neighbors wife (adultery)
and killing them (murder) is not showing this love. Yet they divide two commands (believe in Jesus) and (love God and your neighbor) saying the
latter two commands aren't required (for some unknown reason).
They then go on to say verses about adultery, carousing, drunkenness, and fornication are all about "spiritual" fornication (even though the entire
context of the chapter is about the flesh) I have asked a few times how exactly you commit "spiritual carousing/fornication/adultery/drunkenness etc.."
but have yet to get an answer. Their theology here is a moving target. The same conversations are circular. They continue to take "half verses"
and pick out specific verses (out of specific translations) but ignore all of the dozens of other verses about the same subject. They fail to realize
that in order for a Biblical theology to be valid, it has to agree with all the other verses about the same subject, and ultimately all of the other verses in the Bible.

I'm sure the moderators, and many others on here tire of the banter of antimonianism, however they are difficult to avoid because every time you start
a new thread about sin, or obedience, the commandments, grace, or a few other subjects, they immediately jump in and start quoting the same few verses,
continually skipping all of the other verses in between. This causes much division because the Bible talks so much about sin and repentance.

 

[NoHype]

@james1523 and @NoHype

It's interesting, they concede that is a command you should love your neighbor, they even concede that sleeping with your neighbors wife (adultery)
and killing them (murder) is not showing this love. Yet they divide two commands (believe in Jesus) and (love God and your neighbor) saying the
latter two commands aren't required (for some unknown reason).
They then go on to say verses about adultery, carousing, drunkenness, and fornication are all about "spiritual" fornication (even though the entire
context of the chapter is about the flesh) I have asked a few times how exactly you commit "spiritual carousing/fornication/adultery/drunkenness etc.."
but have yet to get an answer. Their theology here is a moving target. The same conversations are circular. They continue to take "half verses"
and pick out specific verses (out of specific translations) but ignore all of the dozens of other verses about the same subject. They fail to realize
that in order for a Biblical theology to be valid, it has to agree with all the other verses about the same subject, and ultimately all of the other verses in the Bible.

I'm sure the moderators, and many others on here tire of the banter of antimonianism, however they are difficult to avoid because every time you start
a new thread about sin, or obedience, the commandments, grace, or a few other subjects, they immediately jump in and start quoting the same few verses,
continually skipping all of the other verses in between. This causes much division because the Bible talks so much about sin and repentance.

It's a simple matter with those, they have been wrongly taught to equate the mere existence of God's laws being against His saving Grace of The Gospel Jesus Christ when Apostle Paul taught no such thing. That's why they haven't understood what the law is for per Apostle Paul's teaching in 1 Timothy 1, Galatians 5, and 1 Corinthians 5. They have been taught to destroy God's laws that is made for the wicked and ungodly so they themselves think they can no longer be judged when they no longer walk by The Spirit and instead walk by their flesh, a precise distinction that Apostle Paul also taught.

This kind of thing happening among those is prophecy for the end per the Book of Daniel, for the Antichrist and his are to try and change the times and the laws so the wicked will abound in the last days. Some brethren simply don't understand how some in the pulpits today are part of that "many antichrists" working.

Per the ex-KGB colonel Golitsyn that defected to the U.S. in the 1960's, he revealed in his book New Lies For Old how religious summits in Moscow that included Christian leaders from the West, had proposed to them to teach pacifism and disarmament in the western Churches, which he said was actually part of the Communist's long-range disinformation strategy against the West. Pacifist doctrines can stretch to making God's laws against wickedness of none effect, and thus the many injustices today in the West where law breakers often go unpunished to repeat their wickedness while the victim is left without justice.

So how can our Heavenly Father and His Son allow that kind of lawless thinking to go on today even within His Church? It is an easy way to know which one's truly belong to Christ by Faith, because these will also try to keep His commandments. It will determine who has listened to Him instead of listening to men and will determine their reward in the world to come.

 

[Barny]

Please consult a good bible commentary or concordance.

Hi James,

No doubt you would also have your recommendations of what is a good Bible commentary and what are the bad ones to avoid.

Instead I suggest you put your trust in God, and not in man.
1John 2:27
But the anointing (Christ in us) which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

Those who lead others away from Christ are those who are against the law and promote lawlessness, because to know Christ is to obey His commands( 1 John 2:3). 1 John 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. "Commands" is plural, proving that faith in Christ is not the only command we are to keep, but also to obey the rest of His commands.

What are his commandments we keep?
1John 3:22-23
we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

Instead we see that you subtly mix works of the law with grace and thereby deny Christ. We simply cannot mix works of the law with grace.
Rom 11:6 .
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Scripture warns constantly against turning back to the law. And it also warns about seducers who try to subtly lead others back under the law.

Many Christians here follow the gospel of grace. But you say they follow heresy, and you try to steer them back under the law.
Scripture warns about such teachings that corrupt our minds from the simplicity that is in Christ, 2Cor 11:3

 

[DHC]

Even though Christians are not under law, we still have obligation to the moral law, and a very high standard at that - one which exceeds the Pharisees.
Contrary to a claim that we cannot keep the law, this is possible now that the issue of the flesh, sin and death has been dealt with, and now that we have God's moral law written on our heart, and the law of the Spirit of life operating within us.

Hello James.

Your replies are very reasonable and I do appreciate the effort you put into them.
Although there is a sharp distinction between us in the we read the scripture. Here
James, I will illustrate from your last post one very clear difference between our
interpretations.

But now that the flesh has been dealt with, now we can keep God's laws, and even to
a higher degree - a standard which exceeds the Pharisees.

You have stated that 'we can keep God's laws' and 'a standard which exceeds the
Pharisees'. On both these points you seem confused James, please do not take this
as a slight against you. I do not mean that in a personal way, it is the interpretation
that you have adopted. I will explain why your interpretation is faulty James.

Matthew 5:20
For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Scribes and Pharisees,
you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

So we both read this verse exactly the same way, our righteousness must exceed that of
the Scribes and Pharisees. Now the question obviously becomes how is this required
righteousness achieved. We should look at Israel in the first instance to see why they
did not achieve the required righteousness.

The nation of Israel sought to establish their own version of righteousness based on
obedience to the ten commandments (the law). As the following verse confirms James.

Romans 10
For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did
not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for
righteousness to everyone who believes.

So Israel failed because they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
It is a matter of subjecting oneself to God's righteousness and not our own legal
righteousness or self righteousness!

So how is God's standard or God's righteousness ultimately achieved.

Romans 10:10
for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he
confesses, resulting in salvation.

By believing in Jesus Christ, that is how we obtain the righteousness of God. That is
what the verse above states. Now the Gospel is glowing more brightly as we can
see that God's righteousness is contained and delivered in the Gospel.

Should you still be seeing that righteousness is from our own efforts. Then read
the following verse.

Romans 5:17
For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those
who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through
the One, Jesus Christ.

Righteousness is a gift from God to us, James. Your faith was a gift from God to
you and you cannot create faith. So to is God's righteousness a gift to you as a result
of the work of Jesus Christ.

To offer the idea that we achieve a level of righteousness through Grace is simply incorrect.
Righteousness is a gift given to us who believe in Jesus Christ. We can walk in this
righteousness of God but we certainly cannot achieve through legal obedience a level of
righteousness above the Pharisees.

Romans 4:5
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith
is credited as righteousness.

Righteousness is credited to us and it is a gift.

Romans 4:6
just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness
apart from works.

A gift, credited to us and apart from works.

Philippians 3:9
and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law,
but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on
the basis of faith.

Righteousness is from above, the righteousness of Christ and on the basis of faith.

Titus 3:5
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according
to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Your behavior is not the criteria used to obtain a righteousness. Righteousness is
granted to us a free gift which you can accept or reject. Credited means it is bestowed
on us and not obtained.

I wait with bated breath to see how you respond James.

 

[Barny]

I have asked a few times how exactly you commit "spiritual carousing/fornication/adultery/drunkenness etc.."
but have yet to get an answer.

I suggest you read back through my posts on this thread as I have answered this question quite clearly.

.

They fail to realize that in order for a Biblical theology to be valid, it has to agree with all the other verses about the same subject, and ultimately all of the other verses in the Bible.

I agree that scripture confirms scripture. Hence I have always shown scripture confirming scripture in my posts.

If you recall our previous debates, it was you who could not provide scripture to support the doctrine you follow. For example your error doctrine of "habitual" sin.

This causes much division because the Bible talks so much about sin and repentance.

This division has always been around.

Gal 4:21-29
Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now

 

[DHC]

@james1523 and @NoHype

It's interesting, they concede that is a command you should love your neighbor, they even concede that sleeping with your neighbors wife (adultery)
and killing them (murder) is not showing this love. Yet they divide two commands (believe in Jesus) and (love God and your neighbor) saying the
latter two commands aren't required (for some unknown reason).
They then go on to say verses about adultery, carousing, drunkenness, and fornication are all about "spiritual" fornication (even though the entire
context of the chapter is about the flesh) I have asked a few times how exactly you commit "spiritual carousing/fornication/adultery/drunkenness etc.."
but have yet to get an answer. Their theology here is a moving target. The same conversations are circular. They continue to take "half verses"
and pick out specific verses (out of specific translations) but ignore all of the dozens of other verses about the same subject. They fail to realize
that in order for a Biblical theology to be valid, it has to agree with all the other verses about the same subject, and ultimately all of the other verses in the Bible.

I'm sure the moderators, and many others on here tire of the banter of antimonianism, however they are difficult to avoid because every time you start
a new thread about sin, or obedience, the commandments, grace, or a few other subjects, they immediately jump in and start quoting the same few verses,
continually skipping all of the other verses in between. This causes much division because the Bible talks so much about sin and repentance.

Hello B-A-C.

Although you did undoubtedly include me in this tirade of yours B-A-C. I do detect
that you are becoming frustrated given your call for the moderators to intervene.

You said;

It's interesting, they concede that is a command you should love your neighbor, they
even concede that sleeping with your neighbors wife (adultery) and killing them (murder)
is not showing this love. Yet they divide two commands (believe in Jesus) and
(love God and your neighbor) saying the latter two commands aren't required
(for some unknown reason).

I have corrected your usage of the scripture a number of times already, B-A-C.
Here we go again, you said; 'love God and your neighbor', this is what the law
states. A Gentile is not under the law, so a Gentile does not obey the legal instruction
for loving your neighbor. For your sake I will quote the legal stipulation given to
Israel regarding loving your neighbor.

Leviticus 19:18
You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people,
but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the Lord.

This says B-A-C, that you will love your neighbor as yourself.

Now for the New Covenant commandment concerning loving your neighbor.

John 13:34
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved
you, that you also love one another.

There is an astronomical difference between these two commandments. The first
commandment is a conditional love based on your own self love. Whereas the
second commandment is a divine love as Jesus has loved us. Surely you can see
the difference B-A-C.

The first commandment for loving the neighbor is the legal version. We hold to
the second commandment and this love is from above. This is a fruit of the Spirit.
Your love for your neighbor and your enemies is a gift from God. The fruit of the
Spirit are all from above and are not initiated from within ourselves.

they even concede that sleeping with your neighbors wife (adultery)

Yet again B-A-C, you persist with the false allegations. We have been commanded
by the Holy Spirit (Acts 15) to abstain from sexual immorality. Adultery is sexual
immorality B-A-C and we have been commanded not to commit these acts.

Your the one who is isolating the one sexual sin of 'adultery' through your use of
the law. If you believe that you are under the ten commandments (the law) and the
only sexual sin that you avoid is 'adultery'. Then you are seriously misinformed
B-A-C. Or are you altering the written word itself to fit into your theology B-A-C.
If you alter the Mt Sinai covenant commandment to read;

"thou shall not commit sexual immorality"

Then you have utilized the ceremonial law to achieve this generalization. Thereby
placing yourself under the whole law of Mt Sinai. I repeat for your sake B-A-C,
that the Mt Sinai covenant commandment only prohibits 'adultery'. Be precise
when you quote from the law.

For some unknown reason B-A-C, you continually quote the law as if you must
obey the law to achieve righteousness. Our righteousness is a gift from God and
bestowed upon us through the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Thus we walk in that very
righteousness of Christ empowered by the Holy Spirit. The fruit we bear is the
fruit that God provides and not some mechanical, legal, self, manufactured fruit.

they then go on to say verses about adultery, carousing, drunkenness, and fornication
are all about "spiritual" fornication (even though the entire context of the chapter is
about the flesh)

Yet again you are painting me with the very broad brush of antinomianism. Please
amend your spelling B-A-C. I follow the warnings regarding the deeds of the flesh and
not the law. Paul is always talking about the works of the flesh in his letters to the Gentiles.

Because Paul is well aware that the Gentiles are not under the law. So when Paul
remarks concerning the deeds of the flesh you think he is quoting the law. Which
is clearly not the case B-A-C. Here is an example.

Galatians 5
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions,
factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing.

I ask that you demonstrate B-A-C that you assign each deed above with the appropriate law.
Since your theology is legalism, then Paul must be quoting from the law in your mind.

 

[james1523]

You have stated that 'we can keep God's laws' and 'a standard which exceeds the
Pharisees'. On both these points you seem confused James, please do not take this
as a slight against you. I do not mean that in a personal way, it is the interpretation
that you have adopted. I will explain why your interpretation is faulty James.


Matthew 5:20
For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Scribes and Pharisees,
you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.


So we both read this verse exactly the same way, our righteousness must exceed that of
the Scribes and Pharisees. Now the question obviously becomes how is this required
righteousness achieved. We should look at Israel in the first instance to see why they
did not achieve the required righteousness.


The nation of Israel sought to establish their own version of righteousness based on
obedience to the ten commandments (the law). As the following verse confirms James.


Romans 10
For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did
not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for
righteousness to everyone who believes.


So Israel failed because they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
It is a matter of subjecting oneself to God's righteousness and not our own legal
righteousness or self righteousness!


So how is God's standard or God's righteousness ultimately achieved.


Romans 10:10
for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he
confesses, resulting in salvation.


By believing in Jesus Christ, that is how we obtain the righteousness of God. That is
what the verse above states. Now the Gospel is glowing more brightly as we can
see that God's righteousness is contained and delivered in the Gospel.


Should you still be seeing that righteousness is from our own efforts. Then read
the following verse.


Romans 5:17
For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those
who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through
the One, Jesus Christ.


Righteousness is a gift from God to us, James. Your faith was a gift from God to
you and you cannot create faith. So to is God's righteousness a gift to you as a result
of the work of Jesus Christ.


To offer the idea that we achieve a level of righteousness through Grace is simply incorrect.
Righteousness is a gift given to us who believe in Jesus Christ. We can walk in this
righteousness of God but we certainly cannot achieve through legal obedience a level of
righteousness above the Pharisees.


Romans 4:5
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith
is credited as righteousness.


Righteousness is credited to us and it is a gift.


Romans 4:6
just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness
apart from works.


A gift, credited to us and apart from works.


Philippians 3:9
and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law,
but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on
the basis of faith.


Righteousness is from above, the righteousness of Christ and on the basis of faith.


Titus 3:5
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according
to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,


Your behavior is not the criteria used to obtain a righteousness. Righteousness is
granted to us a free gift which you can accept or reject. Credited means it is bestowed
on us and not obtained.


I wait with bated breath to see how you respond James.

Hello DHC, on the matter of righteousness as a gift: righteousness is not a gift, it is Christ who is the gift. Christians do not receive the righteousness of Christ, but Christ who is our righteousness (1 Cor 1:30). We are clothed with Christ, not clothed with the righteousness of Christ (Gal 3:27, Rom 13:14). The "righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith" is not a thing called "righteousness", it is Christ Himself. Self-righteousness, is defined as attempting to be right with God by our own merits. Whereas Christians are righteous through faith because they have received Christ who is our righteousness. In Romans 10, "not subject themselves to the righteousness of God" means to not be subject to Christ. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, not faith. Many Christians read it as faith being the end of the law for righteousness. It doesn't say that. It says Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, and we receive Christ into our hearts through faith (Eph 3:17, Col 2:6). Someone else's righteousness (e.g. Christs's) cannot be imputed or imparted to anyone. These are theological terms which have not practical meaning.

Christians are not to obtain a legal obedience to the law through self-effort, nor to obtain an obedience to the law through receiving someone else's righteousness (imparting or imputing), but to exhibit a high moral obedience to the law through the indwelling Christ who is our righteousness. Failure to keep a high moral obedience to the law is walking in darkness and hinders our fellowship with God and entrance into the kingdom of heaven (1 John 1:6). Kingdom of heaven means the church on earth, and the future 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth. Anyone who lived an immoral lifestyle, was shut out from God's people, and company was not kept with them (1 Cor 5:11). Also, Jesus is saying that having a righteousness that exceeds the Pharisees results in us entering the 1000 year reign of Christ as a reward. Christ's righteousness secures our salvation from hell. Our moral obedience to the law grants us a high position in the kingdom of heaven, both in the church today (the kingdom of heaven on earth) and in the future 1000 year reign of Christ (the kingdom of heaven come down from heaven).

 

[james1523]

Hi James,

No doubt you would also have your recommendations of what is a good Bible commentary and what are the bad ones to avoid.

Instead I suggest you put your trust in God, and not in man.
1 John 2:27
But the anointing (Christ in us) which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

I welcome you to suggest two or three bible commentary or concordance that supports your view that 1 John 2:22 is about denying the gospel of grace and not addressing a gnostic heresy. To use the principle of 2 or 3 witnesses (2 Cor 13:1) for establishing whether your view has any merit or is merely your own private interpretation.

 

[Barny]

I welcome you to suggest two or three bible commentary or concordance that supports your view that 1 John 2:22 is about denying the gospel of grace and not addressing a gnostic heresy. To use the principle of 2 or 3 witnesses (2 Cor 13:1) for establishing whether your view has any merit or is merely your own private interpretation.

Why would you place your trust in man, whoever of them holds the most popular view amongst the Bible commentaries?

Again, I suggest trusting Christ, our teacher, instead.
1 John 2:27
But the anointing (Christ in us) which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

Where in the Bible do we see any scripture mentioning Gnostics?
The alleged "Gnostic" argument for 1John 1 distorts scripture and leads to contradictions.

As we're discussing who is a "liar" from your quote of 1John 1:6, let's look again at how a "liar" is defined in 1John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Jesus is the Christ, meaning chosen by God and anointed to save His people.

We all agree that in believing on Jesus we have salvation.
We all know that the sin the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9.

How does one reject grace and thus deny that Jesus is the Christ, anointed to save us?

Gal 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

 

[NoHype]

Hello B-A-C.


I have corrected your usage of the scripture a number of times already, B-A-C.
Here we go again, you said; 'love God and your neighbor', this is what the law
states. A Gentile is not under the law, so a Gentile does not obey the legal instruction
for loving your neighbor. For your sake I will quote the legal stipulation given to
Israel regarding loving your neighbor.

Leviticus 19:18
You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people,
but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the Lord.

This says B-A-C, that you will love your neighbor as yourself.

Now for the New Covenant commandment concerning loving your neighbor.

John 13:34
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved
you, that you also love one another.

There is an astronomical difference between these two commandments. The first
commandment is a conditional love based on your own self love. Whereas the
second commandment is a divine love as Jesus has loved us. Surely you can see
the difference B-A-C.

I'm sorry to say, but you're simply deluded and you err greatly not understanding the Scriptures.

II Jn 1:5-6
5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
6 And this is love, that we walk after His commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
(KJV)

Christ commanded us to love one another in John 15:12 as... Christ loves us. And our Lord Jesus associated that love to the point of dying for another. That's one difference that made that a new commandment by Christ. But it still is from the OT Leviticus idea of loving thy neighbor as thyself.

2 Pet 1:7-11
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
(KJV)


When Paul quotes from the OT about loving thy neighbor as thyself he was speaking to both believing Israelites and believing Gentiles that make up Christ's Body. But the Leviticus 19 commandment to love thy neighbor as thyself was given to Israel with many thinking that meant mainly between Israelite brethren themselves. Christ and His Apostles showed we are to apply it with all peoples, regardless of their nationality or belief, starting within the Church.

Gal 5:13-14
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
(KJV)

Paul quoted from Leviticus 19:18 perfectly there when applying that as a New Testament doctrine. So did God's commandment per Leviticus just get up and go away? No, Christ and His Apostles applied the 'spirit' of that commandment. Make sense too, because IF we truly love each other as Christ commanded us, and we love those even outside the Church, then we will be fulfilling God's law by doing that like Apostle Paul said.


If loving one another as Christ loves His has nothing to do with staying away from the following sins, which God commanded Israel to keep from, then why did Apostle Paul specifically make that connection here in The New Testament?...

Rom 13:9-10
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
(KJV)

Where did Apostle Paul get that "saying" to love thy neighbor as thyself? From Lev.19:18 per God's commandment. What does Paul mean when he says all those commandments are "briefly comprehended" in that "saying" from Lev.19:18?

It's simple. A brief comprehension means a type of summarizing. Summarizing of what though? Was Paul summarizing love there? No, he was showing us HOW we keep God's commandments by fulfilling it through love of one another. Was Paul doing away with God's commandments by that? No, of course not, otherwise what would that love be fulfilling like he said?

So tell me, HOW can you fulfill that love if those commandments no longer exist??? You wouldn't really 'know' what you're fulfilling if Paul had not mentioned them there! It would just be a peace, love, dove message with no substance of how to love one another!

There's nothing 'legal' about that commandment of Lev.19:18 to love one another, since Apostle Paul himself applied it as New Testament doctrine, as I have shown above. Your idea of legalism is just something made up.

 

[james1523]

Why would you place your trust in man, whoever of them holds the most popular view amongst the Bible commentaries?

Again, I suggest trusting Christ, our teacher, instead.
1 John 2:27
But the anointing (Christ in us) which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

Where in the Bible do we see any scripture mentioning Gnostics?
The alleged "Gnostic" argument for 1John 1 distorts scripture and leads to contradictions.

As we're discussing who is a "liar" from your quote of 1John 1:6, let's look again at how a "liar" is defined in 1John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Jesus is the Christ, meaning chosen by God and anointed to save His people.

We all agree that in believing on Jesus we have salvation.
We all know that the sin the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9.

How does one reject grace and thus deny that Jesus is the Christ, anointed to save us?

Gal 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

You cannot provide a bible commentary to support your views because no one of any theological repute would agree with your views. You are saying not to trust man yet you are asking us to trust you, and you are not a man? No one else has the anointing except yourself?
Galatians 5:4 says they have fallen from grace, it does not say they have denied Christ. Paul calls them brethren, brothers and sisters, in Gal 5:13, proving these are not ones who have denied that Jesus is the Christ.
Attempting to be justified by law is the problem of Judaism, not the problem of Gnosticism which is denying that Jesus is the Christ.

 

[Barny]

You cannot provide a bible commentary to support your views because no one of any theological repute would agree with your views. You are saying not to trust man yet you are asking us to trust you, and you are not a man?

I'm not interested in Bible commentaries. Gave them up years ago after my early years as a Christian.
And scripture tells us we have no need that anyone teach us, as the anointing within us teaches us all things, 1John 2:27.

If you read my post in the Topic "Hebrews" you'll note there I said to another poster not to trust in any of us here for teaching. Christ is our teacher.
By all means don't trust me, nor your favorite Bible commentaries. Trust only in Christ, our only teacher.

I've shared scripture and you can check the Bible yourself to confirm whether what I've shared corresponds with it.
But I also share scripture to counter the preaching of works of the law for righteousness that we see so often on forums. My focus in most of these debates is to share the gospel of Christ.

Galatians 5:4 says they have fallen from grace, it does not say they have denied Christ

Below is a couple of more scriptures to confirm Gal 5:4.
Heb 12:15-17.
looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; lest there be any fornicator(there's that spiritual word again) or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.

Heb 10:26-29
For if we sin willfully ( Gal 2:18) after we have received the knowledge of the truth (of the gospel of Christ), there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?.

How does one "sin"willfully?
Gal 2:18
For if I build again those things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor/Sinner (sin being transgression of the law, 1John 3:4).

Here we see Heb 10:26-29 speaking about those who turn back to the law for righteousness after having known the truth of the gospel of Christ.
Remember that whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19
If a Christian brings themselves under the law then they can be charged with "sin".

If a Christian (one who was truly "enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come", Heb 6:4, ) turns back to the law for righteousness by works, then they make themselves a transgressor/sinner, as described in Gal 2:18. This is willful sin.

Such willful sin (bringing oneself back under the law after having known the truth of the gospel of Christ) shows one has, "fallen from grace", "fall short of the grace of God", as the scriptures above describe. .
Such have " trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
Such have denied Jesus is the Christ. Note how they are even described as "adversaries" in Heb 10:27

With the above scriptures in mind, I think it's important to clarify that perhaps most legalists never knew Christ to begin with. They still have opportunity to repent, as we see with some of the churches spoken of in Rev 2 &3.

Attempting to be justified by law is the problem of Judaism, not the problem of Gnosticism which is denying that Jesus is the Christ.

Where in the Bible are the Gnostics mentioned?

 

[james1523]

Below is a couple of more scriptures to confirm Gal 5:4.
Heb 12:15-17.
looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; lest there be any fornicator(there's that spiritual word again) or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.

Heb 10:26-29
For if we sin willfully ( Gal 2:18) after we have received the knowledge of the truth (of the gospel of Christ), there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?.

How does one "sin"willfully?
Gal 2:18
For if I build again those things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor/Sinner (sin being transgression of the law, 1 John 3:4.

Here we see Heb 10:26-29 speaking about those who turn back to the law for righteousness after having known the truth of the gospel of Christ.
Remember that whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19
If a Christian brings themselves under the law then they can be charged with "sin".

If a Christian (one who was truly "enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come", Heb 6:4, ) turns back to the law for righteousness by works, then they make themselves a transgressor/sinner, as described in Gal 2:18. This is willful sin.

Such willful sin (bringing oneself back under the law after having known the truth of the gospel of Christ) shows one has, "fallen from grace", "fall short of the grace of God", as the scriptures above describe. .
Such have " trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
Such have denied Jesus is the Christ. Note how they are even described as "adversaries" in Heb 10:27

With the above scriptures in mind, I think it's important to clarify that perhaps most legalists never knew Christ to begin with. They still have opportunity to repent, as we see with some of the churches spoken of in Rev 2 &3.

Hebrews 12 is speaking about spiritual fornicator as you say. Hebrews 10:26 onwards is about Christians forsaking the church assembly and going back to Judaism. But this does not mean that everytime the word fornication is mentioned, it refers to spiritual fornication. 1 John 4, the false prophets, who denied the incarnation, are Gnostics.

 

[B-A-C]

Where in the Bible are the Gnostics mentioned?

1 Jn 2:22; Matt 10:33;
John 18:15-27; is where Peter denied Jesus 3 times (he was of course forgiven because he repented) but I think this was a deep issue for Jesus.
I personally believe it's why Jesus asked Peter 3 times if he loved him. John 21:15-17;
2 Tim 2:12; 2 Tim 3:5;