Contemporary Judaizers

[NetChaplain]

Or should I have said you only believe God's laws 'were'... for incurring guilt for those who sought righteousness,

I realize those who are works-based-righteous seek to be right with God, but the misunderstanding is thinking that righteousness could come by the Law, which, "frustrates the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain" (Gal 2:21).

I'm not corresponding with you to show who's wrong are right, but to share Scripture and what I believe, and I realize the anger which can result from differences of understanding, but we should continue to "speak the truth in love" by not posting ill feelings out of anger ("your thinking on God's law aligns with the lawless one, and I think you know who that lawless one is"), and I take no offense, but forgive regardless, because I know you seek truth.

 

[NoHype]

I realize those who are works-based-righteous seek to be right with God, but the misunderstanding is thinking that righteousness could come by the Law, which, "frustrates the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain" (Gal 2:21).

I'm not corresponding with you to show who's wrong are right, but to share Scripture and what I believe, and I realize the anger which can result from differences of understanding, but we should continue to "speak the truth in love" by not posting ill feelings out of anger ("your thinking on God's law aligns with the lawless one, and I think you know who that lawless one is"), and I take no offense, but forgive regardless, because I know you seek truth.

So do you believe Christian society should follow God's laws He provided to deal with criminals or not?? Just answer that simple question if you can.

 

[NetChaplain]

So do you believe Christian society should follow God's laws He provided to deal with criminals or not?? Just answer that simple question if you can.

I don't understand your question. There are no criminals in Christendom, because they are led by the Spirit, "against such there is no law" (Gal 5:23), If you have people who desire no ill will towards anyone, no law is needed. Law is for those who desire ill will towards others, as shown in 1 Tim 1:9.

 

[NoHype]

I don't understand your question. There are no criminals in Christendom, because they are led by the Spirit, "against such there is no law" (Gal 5:23), If you have people who desire no ill will towards anyone, no law is needed. Law is for those who desire ill will towards others, as shown in 1 Tim 1:9.

I see you don't really want... to answer my question.

It's a simple enough question because throughout the history of the western Christian nations ruled and governed by Christians there has still been criminal acts which those Christian servants had to deal with.

So once again, do you believe Christian society should follow God's laws He gave to deal with criminals? What did Apostle Paul say about that in 1 Timothy 1?

 

[NetChaplain]

throughout the history of the western Christian nations ruled and governed by Christians there has still been criminal acts which those Christian servants had to deal with.

Believe you lost me because I don't understand this either, and I have been trying to answer your questions, just truly do not understand them enough to reply. No offence intended.

 

[NoHype]

Believe you lost me because I don't understand this either, and I have been trying to answer your questions, just truly do not understand them enough to reply. No offence intended.

Well here it is again, one more time...

So once again, do you believe Christian society should follow God's laws He gave to deal with criminals? What did Apostle Paul say about that in 1 Timothy 1:8-11?

 

[NetChaplain]

Well here it is again, one more time...

So once again, do you believe Christian society should follow God's laws He gave to deal with criminals? What did Apostle Paul say about that in 1 Timothy 1:8-11?

How is one to answer your question? Can one who is born-again be a criminal? All that was contained in the Law of Moses was to the Jews during that dispensation; the believer follows the law of the Spirit (Rom 8:2) in the present dispensation.

I also want you to know that my correspondence with you is not out of competition or contention, but so that we can get at "the word of truth."

 

[NetChaplain]

What did Apostle Paul say about that in 1 Timothy 1?

Paul was instructing Timothy to "charge some that they teach no other doctrine" (v 3). That is, no doctrine other than the Gospel of Christ, which opposes the doctrine of justification by the works of the law, for "the law is not of faith." The law does not consist of faith in Christ, nor is faith necessary to follow the law, for nowhere does it require it.

Bible Commentary by John Gill-- "But the man that doth them shall live in them." The passage referred to, is in Leviticus 18:5, the word "them," relates to the statutes and judgments, not of the ceremonial, but of the moral law. The Jewish doctors observe on those words, that "it is not said, priests, Levites, and Israelites, but Mdah, "the man"; lo, you learn from hence, that even a Gentile that studies in the law, is as an high priest.

"So that whatever man does the things contained in the law, that is, internally as well as externally, for the law is spiritual, reaches the inward part of man, and requires truth there, a conformity of heart and thought unto it, and that does them perfectly and constantly, without the least failure in matter or manner of obedience, such shall live in them and by them.

"The language of the law is, do this and live, so life and the continuation of that happy natural life which Adam had in innocence, was promised to him, in case of his persisting in his obedience to the law; and so a long and prosperous life was promised to the Israelites in the land of Canaan, provided they observed the laws and statutes which were commanded them: but since eternal life is a promise made before the world began, is provided for in an everlasting covenant, is revealed in the Gospel, and is the pure gift of God's grace through Christ, it seems that it never was the will of God that it should be obtained by the works of the law, and which is a further proof that there can be no justification in the sight of God by them, see Galatians 3:21." JG

 

[NoHype]

How is one to answer your question? Can one who is born-again be a criminal? All that was contained in the Law of Moses was to the Jews during that dispensation; the believer follows the law of the Spirit (Rom 8:2) in the present dispensation.

I also want you to know that my correspondence with you is not out of competition or contention, but so that we can get at "the word of truth."

It's not a difficult question to answer. The reason why you won't answer it is obviously because you've been told a lie, like God's laws are dead and don't exist in a Christian society when they actually do exist, and is how the wicked and unrighteous are dealt with. And there are situations where one who turns to Christ goes back to wickedness, and if it is bad enough they are cast out from the congregation, like Paul's example in 1 Cor.5 with the one who was sleeping with his mother (incest, which is against both God's laws and today's society's laws).

 

[NetChaplain]

God's laws are dead

But God's will and desire for the believer is not abolished (Phl 2:13).

how the wicked and unrighteous are dealt with.

The Law was to deal with evil among the Hebrews and Jews, and God was always merciful to those who repented, which were not most. The "law of sin" deals with them and with the remnant of mankind, since Adam.

What is the law of sin? It's the law that has been active since Adam and states that "the soul that sins shall die" (Eze 18:4, 20). This law was perpetuated to all Adam's posterity (mankind) until the end of time, and now, only those in Christ will avoid its curse of "the second death."

 

[NoHype]

But God's will and desire for the believer is not abolished (Phl 2:13).

The Law was to deal with evil among the Hebrews and Jews, and God was always merciful to those who repented, which were not most. The "law of sin" deals with them and with the remnant of mankind, since Adam.

What is the law of sin? It's the law that has been active since Adam and states that "the soul that sins shall die" (Eze 18:4, 20). This law was perpetuated to all Adam's posterity (mankind) until the end of time, and now, only those in Christ will avoid its curse of "the second death."

What you have done with my quote is very, very bad. You chopped it. I NEVER said God's law is dead. But that is how you quoted me. Very bad practice. Shouldn't do that brother.

God's law is still... in effect to deal with the wicked unrighteous in Christian society, like the U.S. for example. That's why images with the Ten Commandments have been in many courtrooms throughout the U.S., including the U.S. Supreme Court building.

Apostle Paul explained simply who the law was for, and that it is good, if used lawfully. How is it then when it is not... used lawfully? That's about corruption of those in positions to mete the law out. We know that those men are no more perfect than mankind is, so that's another matter which either the people can correct, or The LORD will correct in time. I assure you, the abusers of the law that use it unlawfully, will be corrected eventually though. Apostle Paul only mentioned that aspect in passing per 1 Timothy 1:8, but he did mention it.

 

[NetChaplain]

What you have done with my quote is very, very bad. You chopped it. I NEVER said God's law is dead. But that is how you quoted me. Very bad practice. Shouldn't do that brother.

Excuse me, you're correct, considering the way I worded it, which was not my intent. I meant I believe the Mosaic Law (TC's/Ceremonial ordinances) is "taken away" (Heb 10:9), and I do not mean to keep challenging your belief here, just being Scripture-consistent. His will and desire in the present dispensation has the same goal as the prior, to bring people to Himself; but now it's a different method and involves whosoever, "By a new and living way" (Heb 10:20).

I also wanted to credit you with the desire for Biblical truth, exhibited by your frequent use of Scripture, which many do not include in their posts!

 

[RJ]

It appears to me that:

• The Mosaic Law was perfect, holy and righteous and still is. But, God found fault not in the law but in man. Man was incapable of acomplishing it perfectly, which would have been a requirement for man to be brought to complete repentance. The yearly "Day of Atonement" was the final , year-end, accumulation of efforts to be forgiven for sins. This process covered over sins ending in the ceremoniously "putting" of sins on the "Sacpegoat" and sending it out in the dessert to never be seen again. This was for the Jew only. All of God's Old Covenant laws are good and worthy of aspiring to but, even if possible to be done perfectly, would not bring a man into complete repentance and salvation.
• The New Covenant changed all that. Through the finality of Jesus Christ work on the cross and his subsequent resurrection, God offers both the Jew and the Gentile a more perfect agreement, an infallible agreement based on his free gift of grace and not of man's work!

 

[NetChaplain]

The Mosaic Law was perfect, holy and righteous and still is.

Yes, and it is an unlearned concept to think otherwise (Rom 7:12). I believe the ominous confusion concerning the Law is because of the limited teachings concerning it in our upbringing in our Christian life.

 

[RJ]

Yes, and it is an unlearned concept to think otherwise (Rom 7:12). I believe the ominous confusion concerning the Law is because of the limited teachings concerning it in our upbringing in our Christian life.

Originally Posted by RJ The Mosaic Law was perfect, holy and righteous and still is.

I like what you have said about the above but it alone should not be taken out of context!

 

[NetChaplain]

Originally Posted by RJ The Mosaic Law was perfect, holy and righteous and still is.
I like what you have said about the above but it alone should not be taken out of context!

I don't think we understand one another, I would need you to be clearer concerning the claim of being out of context.

 

[RJ]

I don't think we understand one another, I would need you to be clearer concerning the claim of being out of context.

Sure:
It appears to me that:

• The Mosaic Law was perfect, holy and righteous and still is. But, God found fault not in the law but in man. Man was incapable of acomplishing it perfectly, which would have been a requirement for man to be brought to complete repentance. The yearly "Day of Atonement" was the final , year-end, accumulation of efforts to be forgiven for sins. This process covered over sins ending in the ceremoniously "putting" of sins on the "Sacpegoat" and sending it out in the dessert to never be seen again. This was for the Jew only. All of God's Old Covenant laws are good and worthy of aspiring to but, even if possible to be done perfectly, would not bring a man into complete repentance and salvation.The New Covenant changed all that. Through the finality of Jesus Christ work on the cross and his subsequent resurrection, God offers both the Jew and the Gentile a more perfect agreement, an infallible agreement based on his free gift of grace and not of man's work
• In my above post you just quoted: The Mosaic Law was perfect, holy and righteous and still is.
• That is true but I feel that the rest of my post is true also and what you quoted , by it self, I wouldn't want anyone to think I support, though its worthy to attempt, I wouldn't support that the Mosaic law is required as a prerequisit to receive God's grace.

 

[NetChaplain]

I wouldn't support that the Mosaic law is required as a prerequisit to receive God's grace.

It has never been that the Law is not right, it's just that it is no longer offered, even to the Jew.

 

[RJ]

It has never been that the Law is not right, it's just that it is no longer offered, even to the Jew.

I feel what I have said would agree with that!

 

[NoHype]

It appears to me that:

• The Mosaic Law was perfect, holy and righteous and still is. But, God found fault not in the law but in man. Man was incapable of acomplishing it perfectly, which would have been a requirement for man to be brought to complete repentance. The yearly "Day of Atonement" was the final , year-end, accumulation of efforts to be forgiven for sins. This process covered over sins ending in the ceremoniously "putting" of sins on the "Sacpegoat" and sending it out in the dessert to never be seen again. This was for the Jew only. All of God's Old Covenant laws are good and worthy of aspiring to but, even if possible to be done perfectly, would not bring a man into complete repentance and salvation.
• The New Covenant changed all that. Through the finality of Jesus Christ work on the cross and his subsequent resurrection, God offers both the Jew and the Gentile a more perfect agreement, an infallible agreement based on his free gift of grace and not of man's work!

Good summation. The first covenant was to show how imperfect man is by God's law, and the second covenant the offer of being accounted perfect and in final made perfect through the Mediator (Jesus Christ) and thus becoming dead to the law.

Thing is, until one becomes dead to the law through Christ Jesus by Walking in The Spirit, they are still subject to God's laws which were made for the wicked and unrighteous (1 Tim.1; Gal.5).