Contemporary Judaizers

[brakelite]

There will always exist a difference in understanding concerning who Israel is (Abraham's posterity only, or all in Christ), thus, there will always be a difference in belief's concerning many Israel/Church related Bible doctrine, esp. concerning eschatology.

Why must there always be a difference NC? Both camps cannot be right, and it is a fatal copout to say that we should "agree to disagree". I hate that expression, as it seems that both camps surrender to the impossibility that both are correct. One of us is wrong NC. Either the nation of Israel are still God's chosen people, as per the old covenant Mosaic law as comprehended here in this conditional promise.....
Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

.......or, because they broke that covenant and didn't obey, and the church is now God's vessel as per

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

We haven't displaced Israel NC, we are the continuation of the remnant that were faithful. The nation NC was never a chosen people, it was the faithful people of God within that nation that were the chosen. Same as in the church. Not all the Christian church is chosen. Not all are faithful. And in these last days there will only be a remnant, just as there was in the days of Noah, just as there was in the days of Elijah, just as there was in the days of Christ. It is with that Israel NC that the new covenant is established.

One of us is wrong NC. Because we disagree we must both rethink our respective positions until we come to a knowledge of the truth, but we must never think that it will always be that we will differ. If we both love truth and keep seeking, we will both one day agree.

 

[RJ]

Yes and no. If we are keeping the Ten Commandments, we are 'not under them'. To be 'under the law' means to be under its condemnation. It is the opposite of grace. Forgiveness/guilt. Grace and mercy/condemnation. Grace doesn't displace obedience. It empowers it.The issue so little understood is that the new covenant doesn't do away with the ten commandments, but rather provides us with an airtight solution to how we are to obey them. Our problem RJ isn't the law of God. As Paul said, they are holy, just, and good. Our problem RJ is us. Our rebellious natures. It is our natures that needed changing, not the law we were rebelling against.
So Jesus came to institute, through His death, the opportunity for a new birth. We may, through faith in Him, become new creatures. The new creature RJ, the new creation, is not like the old that died in Christ. The new is new in every way. Though it may look the same, inside, it has the unlimited power of God at its disposal. This power RJ is the same power that raised Christ from the dead, and it is by the indwelling Holy Spirit that God writes His laws upon our hearts.
RJ, I know I said this before, but I cannot stress it enough. Our obedience to the law is essential, and obligatory, it is how we go about that obedience that makes all the difference between legalism and grace.

The Galatians who were being deceived into accepting the ‘Judaizers’ rather than the simplicity of the gospel, certainly had a problem. The problem was not that they were keeping the sabbaths and feasts of the old sanctuary services, (as Paul himself still observed them) , but rather that they were trusting in that observation as a means to being justified. Similar in fact to those who in Jeremiah’s time were saying “The Temple of the Lord, the Temple of the Lord are these”; trusting in historical links to Abraham and Moses rather than in God Himself.

Would anyone dare suggest that it was not wrong to steal? If I as a Christian teach that stealing is morally indefensible which of you would accuse me of legalism?If however I taught that by being honest, I would then be justified before God, then your accusations of ‘Judaising’ and legalism etc would be justifiable.

Therefore, our obedience does not justify us. Obedience has never justified anyone, the just have always lived by faith. Any obedience RJ comes after our having received Christ, not before. Therefore it is a fruit of our relationship with Him, a sure sign of the sanctifying process now under way.

The question you must ask yourself RJ, and anyone else reading this, is are you willing to obey God commandments???
If so, then through faith and trust in Him, by the power of the Holy Spirit indwelling you, you will be able to obey all of God's commandments.

The righteousness of the law is fulfilled in all that walk in the Spirit (they walk in faith). Romans 8:4

The next question is of course "how does God do this"?
Well like I said, He indwells us by His Spirit, He writes His law on our hearts, He empowers us to accomplish what before was impossible. And He does this by filling us with His LOVE. There is the key.

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

And RJ, I would add that just as love fulfills the law regards the last 6 commandments regarding our relationships to our fellow man, love also enables us to honor the first four commandments relating to our duty toward God.

• So brakelite you answer not with a no or a yes but you answer with a no and a yes, bravo!
• Brakelite, I am a simple man and I would appreciate it if you, brakelite, would answer the next question with a simple yes or no and not compound it with a yes and no, please!
• Brakelite, you said: The question you must ask yourself RJ, and anyone else reading this, is are you willing to obey God commandments???
  If so, then through faith and trust in Him, by the power of the Holy Spirit indwelling you, you will be able to obey all of God's commandments.
• Brakelite, I am assuming here that to you, "all of God's Commandments", include the old covenant Ten Commandments.
• So brakelite, for me and the other reader's of this thread and for our edification, please answer the following question with a simple yes or no: Do you, brakelite, personally obey all of God's commandments without failure or missing one point?
  

 

[NetChaplain]

One of us is wrong NC. Because we disagree we must both rethink our respective positions until we come to a knowledge of the truth, but we must never think that it will always be that we will differ. If we both love truth and keep seeking, we will both one day agree.

I appreciate the brotherly appeal, which should always be the Christians goal when communicating, and surly the appeal is mutual. The fellowship we have together in Christ is due to essential doctrine, and regardless of our belief in unessential doctrine, this remains forever unchanged.

What the believer understands in unessential doctrine determines present maturity in Christ from what the Spirit of God teaches him, and the more accurate the comprehension of these doctrines, the closer the fellowship.

Either the nation of Israel are still God's chosen people, as per the old covenant Mosaic law

.......or, because they broke that covenant and didn't obey, and the church is now God's vessel

"God hath not cast away His people which he foreknew" (Rom 11:2). He knew they would be a disobedient people (most of them) before He chose them and gave them the Law. God will bring them back; the majority of them, not just a remnant. (11:12, 15, 23, 24).

 

[brakelite]

So brakelite, for me and the other reader's of this thread and for our edification, please answer the following question with a simple yes or no: Do you, brakelite, personally obey all of God's commandments without failure or missing one point?

Irrelevent RJ. My own performance, whether good or bad, should never be held up as evidence for truth. Jesus is your example, not me. The Bible is your evidence RJ, not my performance. If the scripture RJ says "Christians are no longer obligated to refrain from coveting and stealing their neighbors wife (3 commandments broken there) and are simply required to 'do their best', " then RJ, let that indeed be the norm for your everyday living.
If however, as I believe, that one day you will be judged by "the law of liberty" ....

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed......2:8 ¶ If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.....

...then I would suggest you obey it.
But RJ, its all up to you. It is your decision, and please dont let my example or lack there-of be an influence on your thinking. Either the Word demands obedience to God, or it doesn't. Simple choice.

 

[brakelite]

"God hath not cast away His people which he foreknew" (Rom 11:2). He knew they would be a disobedient people (most of them) before He chose them and gave them the Law. God will bring them back; the majority of them, not just a remnant. (11:12, 15, 23, 24)

Of course NC. God never gives up hope for anyone. He always pleads for repentance, and recognition of His salvation. But as I attempted to show in my thread "Satan's target...Israel or the church"? , it isn't Israel who is God's vessel for spreading the truth abroad, nor is Israel Satan's prime focus. Our eyes are too focused on the Middle East, and in ignorance of what is happening in our own neighbohoods, and in our own back yards. All around us Christians are being beguiled by the enemy of souls, and are no longer standard bearers of truth. Rome is bewitching them,no longer is Rome the enemy of truth, but is now being lauded as the only logical leader of the NWO. That NC should be the focus of modern Christendom, not Israel. The fact that ecumenism is now so popular is all the evidence one needs to see Satan's hand in church affairs. The daughters of the harlot are returning to Rome and the rest of the world following suit. No longer recognized as the Antichrist, Rome is now, in the minds of many, a friendly kindly neighbor with our best interests at heart, if a little confused over a few minor matters of doctrine.
The church is now completely off her guard, and ripe for picking.

 

[RJ]

Irrelevent RJ. My own performance, whether good or bad, should never be held up as evidence for truth. Jesus is your example, not me. The Bible is your evidence RJ, not my performance. If the scripture RJ says "Christians are no longer obligated to refrain from coveting and stealing their neighbors wife (3 commandments broken there) and are simply required to 'do their best', " then RJ, let that indeed be the norm for your everyday living.
If however, as I believe, that one day you will be judged by "the law of liberty" ....

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed......2:8 ¶ If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.....

...then I would suggest you obey it.
But RJ, its all up to you. It is your decision, and please dont let my example or lack there-of be an influence on your thinking. Either the Word demands obedience to God, or it doesn't. Simple choice.

Obedience yes, perfect no, at least not just yet my friend.
My question: "do you follow all of God's Commandments without missing one point"? And your answer was a yes and no at the same time!
According to your theology, I can only assume the following conundrum:
1. You can't answer only a simple no because that would not support your stance of being a follower of God's Commandments with out failure.
2. You can't answer only a simple yes because you set yourself up as being as perfect as Jesus Christ, which you know doesn't sound right.
3. Thus to support your theology you can only answer a yes and a no simultaneously. This is a conlict in terms and creates a conundrum: a difficulty, a quandary or a dilemma that can not be explained, no matter how hard you try and how many scripture you quote.
God bless you and your theology!

 

[RJ]

Irrelevent RJ. My own performance, whether good or bad, should never be held up as evidence for truth. Jesus is your example, not me. The Bible is your evidence RJ, not my performance. If the scripture RJ says "Christians are no longer obligated to refrain from coveting and stealing their neighbors wife (3 commandments broken there) and are simply required to 'do their best', " then RJ, let that indeed be the norm for your everyday living.
If however, as I believe, that one day you will be judged by "the law of liberty" ....

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed......2:8 ¶ If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.....

...then I would suggest you obey it.
But RJ, its all up to you. It is your decision, and please dont let my example or lack there-of be an influence on your thinking. Either the Word demands obedience to God, or it doesn't. Simple choice.

Looking at your theology, I find it both interesting and I am not sure where it comes from or how it got started. Unfortunately , I find it contradictory at the same time. I think perhaps you and Nohype take things out of context:

• 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
  You quote to support your stance but the true meaning is just the opposite. Here, this verse supports the fact that if one fails at one single point of the law, they are guilty of failing the entire set of laws. In other words, man is not capable of accomplishing any of the law.
• 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty First death then judgment. Yes, you shall be judged by the law of liberty! But the "law of liberty" is actually the law of grace or the law of Christ if you will.. If it were written down in plain English, this law is enacted when you die and there is no judgment upon you because of Christ in you!

 

[james1523]

hebrews 8:10 - the law of liberty, or law of life inscribed on the heart.

This is none other than a function of the Holy Spirit indwelling every believer and directing their daily lives according to His life in them, and nothing to do with merely obeying a set of written rules. The law of life, is higher than the written law, the 10 commandments.

Christians should not be arguing about whether they have to keep the 10 commandments or not (written law of letters), they should be asking whether or not they obey the Holy Spirit, the law of liberty, the law of life, the law of the Spirit of life, indwelling their hearts. This law is much more effective and higher than the written laws of Moses (including 10 commandments). What you do, and what you think is judged, even when you think something wrong, the Spirit is there to convict you, and then give you life.. and when you do or think something right, He is there to bless you and give you life. So whether you do good or bad, the Spirit will be there to bless you and give you life. So that "all things work together for good". Contemporary Judaizers, follow the 10 commandments out of the book, whether it's the bible or Jewish writings, makes no difference, if it's written, it's of the old covenant, it can't give life, only the Spirit gives life, so following the 10 commandments as written results in death. But obeying the Spirit, the law of the Spirit of life, results in life and peace. The law of the Spirit of life, is not about rules and regulations, right or wrong, commandments, instructions, teachings, and doctrines, it is about life, for spiritual growth, which results in conformity to the image of Jesus Christ, so that God may bring many sons to glory.

 

[NetChaplain]

Christians should not be arguing about whether they have to keep the 10 commandments or not

Hi James - Amen, and believers shouldn't argue about anything (2 Tim 2:24). Disagreeing is void of arguing if we are "speaking the truth in love" (Eph 4:15). The more we do this, the more the Spirit of God will teach us.

 

[NoHype]

hebrews 8:10 - the law of liberty, or law of life inscribed on the heart.

This is none other than a function of the Holy Spirit indwelling every believer and directing their daily lives according to His life in them, and nothing to do with merely obeying a set of written rules. The law of life, is higher than the written law, the 10 commandments.

Christians should not be arguing about whether they have to keep the 10 commandments or not (written law of letters), they should be asking whether or not they obey the Holy Spirit, the law of liberty, the law of life, the law of the Spirit of life, indwelling their hearts. This law is much more effective and higher than the written laws of Moses (including 10 commandments). What you do, and what you think is judged, even when you think something wrong, the Spirit is there to convict you, and then give you life.. and when you do or think something right, He is there to bless you and give you life. So whether you do good or bad, the Spirit will be there to bless you and give you life. So that "all things work together for good". Contemporary Judaizers, follow the 10 commandments out of the book, whether it's the bible or Jewish writings, makes no difference, if it's written, it's of the old covenant, it can't give life, only the Spirit gives life, so following the 10 commandments as written results in death. But obeying the Spirit, the law of the Spirit of life, results in life and peace. The law of the Spirit of life, is not about rules and regulations, right or wrong, commandments, instructions, teachings, and doctrines, it is about life, for spiritual growth, which results in conformity to the image of Jesus Christ, so that God may bring many sons to glory.

I wish you could understand that God has always had His law, before the foundations of the earth and still does today, and that it is never going to go away.

Lot of people don't like that fact, nor the fact of having to be reminded of what's contained in His laws that convicts them of sin, because that's actually what The Holy Spirit does inside us, not only leads us into righteousness, but also convicts us of sin when we mess up using... God's laws.

But those who hate being shown their sins would love nothing more than God's laws to just go away (especially Satan wants that as the idea 'lawless one' is connected with him; see the Greek word for "Wicked" in 2 Thess.2:8), and so some in the Church make up fabrications against God's law like it was all done away with and no more, even false ideas that we as believers on Christ can sin no more and thus no longer have any need for God's laws, or by trying to associate all of God's law specifically with the Old Covenant that Christ did do away with.

 

[RJ]

I wish you could understand that God has always had His law, before the foundations of the earth and still does today, and that it is never going to go away.

Lot of people don't like that fact, nor the fact of having to be reminded of what's contained in His laws that convicts them of sin, because that's actually what The Holy Spirit does inside us, not only leads us into righteousness, but also convicts us of sin when we mess up using... God's laws.

But those who hate being shown their sins would love nothing more than God's laws to just go away (especially Satan wants that as the idea 'lawless one' is connected with him; see the Greek word for "Wicked" in 2 Thess.2:8), and so some in the Church make up fabrications against God's law like it was all done away with and no more, even false ideas that we as believers on Christ can sin no more and thus no longer have any need for God's laws, or by trying to associate all of God's law specifically with the Old Covenant that Christ did do away with.

Christ did'nt do away with the law, he fulfilled it by becoming the Messiah...Christain Eschathology.
But he made the law obsolete, it is a good guideline to always follow but following it imperfectly is the case of a Christian and not required for salvation.
I don't hate being shown my sin, I look forward to it, the Holy Spirit chasting me towards perfection but total perfection hasn't come yet, not until I am glorified in the presence of God after my physical death.
Until then, the Ten Commandments and love is the standard but, I want be tricked into believing I must do them both perfectly.

 

[james1523]

I wish you could understand that God has always had His law, before the foundations of the earth and still does today, and that it is never going to go away.

Lot of people don't like that fact, nor the fact of having to be reminded of what's contained in His laws that convicts them of sin, because that's actually what The Holy Spirit does inside us, not only leads us into righteousness, but also convicts us of sin when we mess up using... God's laws.

But those who hate being shown their sins would love nothing more than God's laws to just go away (especially Satan wants that as the idea 'lawless one' is connected with him; see the Greek word for "Wicked" in 2 Thess.2:8), and so some in the Church make up fabrications against God's law like it was all done away with and no more, even false ideas that we as believers on Christ can sin no more and thus no longer have any need for God's laws, or by trying to associate all of God's law specifically with the Old Covenant that Christ did do away with.

God always has His law but His law is not written on paper (stone) it is written on hearts by the Spirit. There is lots of talk about following the 10 commandments, and this is good, but not much talk about following the Spirit, which is even better. Don't ask ourselves "do I have to keep the 10 commandments or not", ask ourselves "am I following the Spirit, the law of Spirit written in my heart". The 10 commandments will say "do not murder", but the law of the Spirit written on the heart will say "do not be angry, do not think that unrighteous thought", so a Spirit-following Christian, will always be more holy than a written law-following Christian, and thus fulfill Jesus's command that we be more righteous than the Pharisees. Are we only following the law in letters? Then we are no better than Pharisees.

The Bible (1 Tim 1:9) says the (written) law is for the unrighteous (lawless), not the righteous. Are we living right with God? If so then the law is not meant for us. If we are righteous by faith in Christ, then the written law does not apply to us because we are already following the higher and more perfect law of the law written on our hearts. It doesn't mean we are lawless (as some think), we actually have the law of the Spirit of life. God's laws written on stone or in your old testament copy is a shadow. Those who walk in the Spirit have the reality of the law in their hearts. To walk in the Spirit means to abide in Christ, dwell in Christ, make our home, living and habitation in Christ, and involves praying , thanking, rejoicing, praising continually (Eph 6:18), for this is God's will for us (1 Thess 5:16-18). Keeping the commandments (Old Testament), following Christ (Gospels), is all synonymous with "walking in the Spirit" (Paul's ministry). If we are merely following what the Bible says, keeping a check of our sins and conscious of this sense of right versus wrong, then we are not living in the Spirit anymore than the Pharisees who did exactly the same thing. Because all of these attitudes, like it or not, are self-focused, borne out of the "knowledge of good and evil", which gave Adam and Eve a conscience, and a sense of their nakedness, and not Spirit-focused, which brings us to life. And self-focus produces self-righteousness, but God-focus produces God's righteousness.

 

[RJ]

God always has His law but His law is not written on paper (stone) it is written on hearts by the Spirit. There is lots of talk about following the 10 commandments, and this is good, but not much talk about following the Spirit, which is even better. Don't ask ourselves "do I have to keep the 10 commandments or not", ask ourselves "am I following the Spirit, the law of Spirit written in my heart". The 10 commandments will say "do not murder", but the law of the Spirit written on the heart will say "do not be angry, do not think that unrighteous thought", so a Spirit-following Christian, will always be more holy than a written law-following Christian, and thus fulfill Jesus's command that we be more righteous than the Pharisees. Are we only following the law in letters? Then we are no better than Pharisees.

The Bible (1 Tim 1:9) says the (written) law is for the unrighteous (lawless), not the righteous. Are we living right with God? If so then the law is not meant for us. If we are righteous by faith in Christ, then the written law does not apply to us because we are already following the higher and more perfect law of the law written on our hearts. It doesn't mean we are lawless (as some think), we actually have the law of the Spirit of life. God's laws written on stone or in your old testament copy is a shadow. Those who walk in the Spirit have the reality of the law in their hearts. To walk in the Spirit means to abide in Christ, dwell in Christ, make our home, living and habitation in Christ, and involves praying , thanking, rejoicing, praising continually (Eph 6:18), for this is God's will for us (1 Thess 5:16-18). Keeping the commandments (Old Testament), following Christ (Gospels), is all synonymous with "walking in the Spirit" (Paul's ministry).

Yes , I love your 1 Tim quote; quite appropriate. But, the legalistic mind will find an exception to that truth also.

 

[NoHype]

God always has His law but His law is not written on paper (stone) it is written on hearts by the Spirit.

I agree that now those in Christ are to have God's laws written in their hearts and minds by The Holy Spirit (Heb.10). But that is especially about His eternal law that is spiritual, which is why I covered Apostle Paul's Romans 7 chapter that there are actually two sets of law going on for this flesh world, one is His spiritual law of the 'inward' man, and the other is the law of sin that operates in our fleshy members.

So is there still a law written on paper to judge the wicked with today? Yes, and Paul showed that too in 1 Timothy 1:8-10. Also, per the Genesis 49:10 prophecy to Judah, God gave Judah care of His law and the sceptre rule for this world, all the way up to Christ's second coming. So who can go against the responsibility and authority that God Himself has given to kings and judges here on earth, even today? Satan and his workers are the ones trying to go against that, and even try to fool Christ's Church into thinking to change the laws, which is why all the chaos of today is happening in the traditional Christian nations.

The Bible (1 Tim 1:9) says the (written) law is for the unrighteous (lawless), not the righteous. Are we living right with God? If so then the law is not meant for us. If we are righteous by faith in Christ, then the written law does not apply to us because we are already following the higher and more perfect law of the law written on our hearts. It doesn't mean we are lawless (as some think), we actually have the law of the Spirit of life. God's laws written on stone or in your old testament copy is a shadow. Those who walk in the Spirit have the reality of the law in their hearts. To walk in the Spirit means to abide in Christ, dwell in Christ, make our home, living and habitation in Christ, and involves praying , thanking, rejoicing, praising continually (Eph 6:18), for this is God's will for us (1 Thess 5:16-18). Keeping the commandments (Old Testament), following Christ (Gospels), is all synonymous with "walking in the Spirit" (Paul's ministry).

Yes, I agree with that, and is what I preach concerning those in Christ's Church. But for the wicked without Christ, that does not apply, because they have to first be turned to believe on and follow Christ Jesus before they can begin to enter into that state. And until they do, they are subject to God's laws which He has given to the powers He set on earth to deal with wickedness (Rom.13). We also become subject to that again IF we fall away from Christ, which means if we stop walking by The Spirit and instead walk by our flesh per Gal.5.

And concerning the part of God's law that Christ nailed to His cross, that was about the "handwriting of ordinances" in God's law (Co.2; Eph.2). That was about ceremonial ritual, various washings and atonements and sacrifices of the Old Covenant. The way our Lord Jesus 'fulfilled' the law is about walking by The Holy Spirit with God writing His laws into our hearts and minds. That was not available under the Old Covenant.

If we are merely following what the Bible says, keeping a check of our sins and conscious of this sense of right versus wrong, then we are not living in the Spirit anymore than the Pharisees who did exactly the same thing. Because all of these attitudes, like it or not, are self-focused, borne out of the "knowledge of good and evil", which gave Adam and Eve a conscience, and a sense of their nakedness, and not Spirit-focused, which brings us to life. And self-focus produces self-righteousness, but God-focus produces God's righteousness.

Yet God's laws written in the Old Testament Books which Christ did not nail to His cross, will ALWAYS be in agreement with The Holy Spirit. What can we say then? That it's now taboo to even 'read' the Old Testament Books? Will doing that somehow conflict with The Holy Spirit working within us as believers on Christ Jesus? No, God forbid. Thinking that doing that will somehow cause a conflict with The Holy Spirit is exactly how Satan has tricked many today to never go back into the Old Testament and study, when doing that study can actually help a believer's walk by The Holy Spirit, that confirming what The Holy Spirit inwardly is trying to work in us. The confusion many have is from men that want to scrap all of God's laws, period. Those men are not of God.

 

[NoHype]

Christ did'nt do away with the law, he fulfilled it by becoming the Messiah...Christain Eschathology.
But he made the law obsolete, it is a good guideline to always follow but following it imperfectly is the case of a Christian and not required for salvation.

What Christ did away with that is now "obsolete" as you say, are the "handwriting of ordinances" in the law:

Col 2:13-14
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath He quickened together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
(KJV)


Eph 2:14-15
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
(KJV)

That does not mean all of God's law. It is specifically the Old Covenant requirements of ceremonial worship, washings, sacrifices, etc. It does not include God's commandments against murder, rape, thefts, bearing false witness, adultery, idolatry, perjury, drunkenness, revellings, seditions, etc., and various statutes and judgments to deal with those things of 1 Timothy 1:8-10 and Galatians 5:19-21.

I don't hate being shown my sin, I look forward to it, the Holy Spirit chasting me towards perfection but total perfection hasn't come yet, not until I am glorified in the presence of God after my physical death.
Until then, the Ten Commandments and love is the standard but, I want be tricked into believing I must do them both perfectly.

Myself as a believer on Christ Jesus do not consider anyone being perfect or even saved by following God's laws that Christ did not do away with on His cross. It is the Judaizers that Apostle Paul dealt with in the Church that want to do that.

There's a huge difference between thinking to be saved by God's law vs. thinking that all of God's law has been done away with by our Lord Jesus. Christ's enemies keep planting that latter false idea within the Church because Satan knows he must get around God's laws in order to conquer the Christian nations for the end. And he's doing a pretty good job of that too today.

 

[RJ]

What Christ did away with that is now "obsolete" as you say, are the "handwriting of ordinances" in the law:

Col 2:13-14
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath He quickened together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
(KJV)


Eph 2:14-15
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
(KJV)

That does not mean all of God's law. It is specifically the Old Covenant requirements of ceremonial worship, washings, sacrifices, etc. It does not include God's commandments against murder, rape, thefts, bearing false witness, adultery, idolatry, perjury, drunkenness, revellings, seditions, etc., and various statutes and judgments to deal with those things of 1 Timothy 1:8-10 and Galatians 5:19-21.





There's a huge difference between thinking to be saved by God's law vs. thinking that all of God's law has been done away with by our Lord Jesus. Christ's enemies keep planting that latter false idea within the Church because Satan knows he must get around God's laws in order to conquer the Christian nations for the end. And he's doing a pretty good job of that too today.

• Myself as a believer on Christ Jesus do not consider anyone being perfect or even saved by following God's laws that Christ did not do away with on His cross. I think I understand what you say, and finally we have agreement....No Christian is perfect or saved by following any of God's laws. So then , what is it exactly that we disagree with?
• Also, help me here please: You quoted 1 Timothy 1:8-10 ...I am assuming you agree with this scripture. And, if you agree, then you agree the law is for the non-believer and not the believer, right?
• B.T.W., I have always contended that Christ did'nt do away with the law but he fulfilled it for all times. Matthew 5:17

 

[brakelite]

I believe that we Christians all agree that our greatest priority in this life is to reveal the love of God in us. We do this as a testimony, as a witness, even as evidence that indeed it is the Lord God, the Creator, who has transformed our minds and hearts and is conforming them to the image of Christ. The love of God in us constrains us to love as He loved. To walk as He walked. The scriptures say the God is love. It is His very nature to love, He cannot do anything but love. Everything He does, everything He says, even His very thoughts are rooted and grounded in love. And that is precisely what the will of God is for us. That we also should be rooted and grounded in love....
Ephesians 3:14 ¶ For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.


This is why we must surrender daily to Him that He may accomplish this in us...graciously granting to us His Spirit and we taking on His nature of love. I have said this many times throughout the forum on many different threads. Who would disagree?

Yet when I say that it is obligatory to obey God's commandments, all the above is forgotten, and we see charges of "legalism" and "Judaisers" and statements like "the law is obsolete" or "done away with" or "the law is the old covenant" or that "the law is nailed to the cross".

Yet every single one of the above statements are in utter contradistinction to the principles of love that we all agree on.

One cannot keep the commandments without love. One cannot love without keeping the commandments. They are dependant upon one another for their existence. Do away with the law and you must do away with love. Nail the law to the cross and you must nail love to the cross. Nail love to the cross and you must nail God's character to the cross. See how Satan has scewed it all around??? It is our characters that must be nailed to the cross, and God's character of love taken on board that empowers us to obey His commandments!!
Read through the scriptures, both old and new testaments, and see the many connections between love and the law of God. They are virtually synonymous.
"If ye love Me keep My commandments" is just one.
1 Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

1:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

...and many more....

 

[DHC]

I believe that we Christians all agree that our greatest priority in this life is to reveal the love of God in us. We do this as a testimony, as a witness, even as evidence that indeed it is the Lord God, the Creator, who has transformed our minds and hearts and is conforming them to the image of Christ. The love of God in us constrains us to love as He loved. To walk as He walked. The scriptures say the God is love. It is His very nature to love, He cannot do anything but love. Everything He does, everything He says, even His very thoughts are rooted and grounded in love. And that is precisely what the will of God is for us. That we also should be rooted and grounded in love....
Ephesians 3:14 ¶ For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.


This is why we must surrender daily to Him that He may accomplish this in us...graciously granting to us His Spirit and we taking on His nature of love. I have said this many times throughout the forum on many different threads. Who would disagree?

Yet when I say that it is obligatory to obey God's commandments, all the above is forgotten, and we see charges of "legalism" and "Judaisers" and statements like "the law is obsolete" or "done away with" or "the law is the old covenant" or that "the law is nailed to the cross".

Yet every single one of the above statements are in utter contradistinction to the principles of love that we all agree on.

One cannot keep the commandments without love. One cannot love without keeping the commandments. They are dependant upon one another for their existence. Do away with the law and you must do away with love. Nail the law to the cross and you must nail love to the cross. Nail love to the cross and you must nail God's character to the cross. See how Satan has scewed it all around??? It is our characters that must be nailed to the cross, and God's character of love taken on board that empowers us to obey His commandments!!
Read through the scriptures, both old and new testaments, and see the many connections between love and the law of God. They are virtually synonymous.
"If ye love Me keep My commandments" is just one.
1 Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

1:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

...and many more....

1 John 3
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[RJ]

1 John 3
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

This passage, like many others on different subjects have caused me great concern in the past. They didn't make since to me for some time but, after much study, I am convinced the above verse doesn't mean what you think it does: What is happening is that John is saying that the one who is born again does not habitually abide in sin. He may fall into it, but he does not practice it as a lifestyle.
One more thing when decerning a passage or any doctrine make sure that no bondage can result; if there isn't any your on the right track, examples:
1.A Christian can not sin: I don't dwell on sin but I still see that I mess up once in awhile, I therefore must not be saved!
2. Water Baptism: I was water baptised but my life is still messed up, therefore the water baptism didn't work, I am not saved and/or I must be water baptised again.

 

[NoHype]

• Myself as a believer on Christ Jesus do not consider anyone being perfect or even saved by following God's laws that Christ did not do away with on His cross. I think I understand what you say, and finally we have agreement....No Christian is perfect or saved by following any of God's laws. So then , what is it exactly that we disagree with?

I don't know where the disagreement is, since the position of my previous post (and all other of my posts) is what I've held to all along on this matter. There are some here though that do believe all of God's law no longer exists or is no longer in effect, as they are wrongly taught all the law died with Christ. Well, not all of it did.

• Also, help me here please: You quoted 1 Timothy 1:8-10 ...I am assuming you agree with this scripture. And, if you agree, then you agree the law is for the non-believer and not the believer, right?

I agree with Apostle Paul's explanation of the matter, which is further understood by what he taught on the same in Galatians 5:13-25. IF we walk by The Spirit and not by our flesh. Can we as believers mess up at times with walking by our flesh? Yes. When that happens we place our self back in bondage to the law, because that's what governs sin. Since none of us can be perfect, it's possible to go into that condition IF we allow it with walking by our flesh instead of The Holy Spirit. Note Paul's warning of Gal.5:17 below.

Gal 5:16-18
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
(KJV)

There's more involved than just saying the law is only for the un-believer. Leaving it just at that would be like saying the law is dead forever for a believer even if the believer falls away to walk by their flesh. That interpretation of those Scriptures doesn't work, it throws away the IF condition Apostle Paul stated. It would also throw away the need for repentance to Christ of future sins we may commit. So this area is where we apparently disagree.

• B.T.W., I have always contended that Christ did'nt do away with the law but he fulfilled it for all times. Matthew 5:17

And by 'fulfilling' He did what? Destroyed it? God forbid, no. He gave the Spirit of His law, going into greater detail of how it is applied which is much stronger than even how the Pharisees were trying to to follow it.

Matt 5:17-20
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
(KJV)

Why would He say that last part, "except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees..."? It's because they taught to follow God's law, but they didn't follow it themselves, even excused themselves from it to follow their own traditions instead.

Matt 23:1-7
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to His disciples,
2 Saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
(KJV)