Contemporary Judaizers

[Barny]

.



No, what I was suggesting was that if a person is focusing on one point while excluding of other things that God won't allow the man to exclude, then even if he does well and good in the one thing, it will make no difference in the end, not to him it won't.

We cannot forget anything that needs to be done as per God, which means we need to do everything that God requires.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

I've heard similar doctrines to this before. You are saying that perfect obedience to the law of righteousness (10 commandments) is required which man can do with the Holy Spirit working through them. Is this correct?

But, this is not supported in scripture.

the thief on the cross did the works that is required of us. Believe on Jesus, as described in John 6:29.

what you seem to be suggesting is that those on their death bed are truly blessed as they are not required to have this perfect obedience to the law as evidence of their so called "imparted" righteousness, whereas those of us who live on as Christians should show this work of perfect obedience to the law as proof of our "imparted" righteousness.

God is not unjust that he would demand different works for each of us depending on whether we receive Christ on our death bed or not.

the thief on the cross is God's example of who we are saved by grace and not by works of the law.

We cannot even mix grace with works of the law, as it says in Rom 11:6.

 

[Barny]

@Barney. So Barney, according to your philosophy James must be speaking of spiritual adultery and/or covetousness here...
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
.

Hi brakelite,

Here's a further point from scripture to confirm the spiritual understanding of the verse you quoted from James 1.

Note James 1:15
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

We all know the wages of sin is death, which confirms the scripture above which also says that sin = death.

And how does one "sin"?

See Gal 2:18
"if I build again those things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor" (SINNER).

This is confirmed by the following.
1John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

And who does the law apply to?
Rom 3:19
"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God"

And does the law (which includes the 10 commandments) apply to Christians?
Answer: NO!
See Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal; 3:24, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9.

So as Christians are not under the law, then that clearly means that we cannot be charged with its transgression (sin).
Rom 4:15
the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression" (Sin)

So we see clearly confirmed in scripture that Christians cannot be charged with "sin".
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Jesus truly set us free from sin, John 8:36

1John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Pet 4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh (crucified), arm yourselves likewise with the same mind (our old man crucified with him, Rom 6:6, ): for he that hath suffered in the flesh (Rom 6:6, ) hath ceased from sin;

Gal 2:15
We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners

So how does a Christian avoid "sin"?
We remain in Christ, believing on him and abstaining from spiritual fornication with Hagar (symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal; 4:24).

Anyone who gets spiritually drunk with the wine of fornication with Hagar (Rev 17:1) can be charged with sin as they have brought themselves back under the law (Gal 2:18). And the wages of even just one offense (sin/transgression of the law) is death.

Believe on Jesus.
And never follow lukewarm doctrines that mix grace with works of the law.

BTW, just to clarify for any newcomers to this topic, even though scripture states that Christians cannot be charged with "sin", this is not to say we are perfect in the physical. The physical will never be perfect. And when a Christian does wrong God chastises us.

What scripture refers to in saying Christians "cannot sin", is that our position in Christ is just as if we have no sin. What God sees is Christ in us, and in him there is no sin, 1John 3:5.

 

[amadeus2]

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I've heard similar doctrines to this before. You are saying that perfect obedience to the law of righteousness (10 commandments) is required which man can do with the Holy Spirit working through them. Is this correct?

No, I did not mention the 10 commandments nor were they in my mind.

But, this is not supported in scripture.

the thief on the cross did the works that is required of us. Believe on Jesus, as described in John 6:29.

The thief had what he was given by God and made use of it so as to receive his reward.

We have received and/or are receiving from God whatever He has for us then He is watching to see what we do with what we have:

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48

what you seem to be suggesting is that those on their death bed are truly blessed as they are not required to have this perfect obedience to the law as evidence of their so called "imparted" righteousness, whereas those of us who live on as Christians should show this work of perfect obedience to the law as proof of our "imparted" righteousness.

God is not unjust that he would demand different works for each of us depending on whether we receive Christ on our death bed or not.

No, God is fair, which is why no one else is able to render final judgment or even to decide what another person needs or doesn't need. No one but God always understands:

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

We cannot even mix grace with works of the law, as it says in Rom 11:6.

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You apparently have certain definitions for some of the words you are using, such as grace, works and the law. Since I do not understand your meanings, I seem to be missing your point and we are not communicating. You have jumped to erroneous conclusions on where I and what I believe.

What I believe essentially is that the Bible was written by under the inspiration of God (led by the Holy Ghost) and that only by similar inspiration (led by the Holy Ghost) can anyone really understand any part of what they read or hear from scripture. When a person' s heart is open and he is paying attention he can receive enough from God to move closer. This is where the unbeliever begins to be a believer. Every person born to woman has a little light (John 1:9) to enable a closer approach to God. Not every road for every person on his approach is exactly the same. Believers sometimes will disagree, but it is never because the Holy Spirit led them the wrong way or gave them the wrong information.

The one eventually essential thing I see for any believer is love or charity as described or defined in I Cor 13:4-7. It is more important than correct doctrine. The importance of charity is made clear in I Cor 13:1-3. As per I Cor 13:13 charity is greater than faith and hope. But, there I go using the Bible and without led by the Holy Ghost who is able to understand what the Bible is saying?

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

But, even if the Holy Ghost is hear to teach us, must we not heed Paul's words?

"Quench not the Spirit" (I Thess 5:19)

the thief on the cross is God's example of who we are saved by grace and not by works of the law.

The thief made a choice based on what was at his disposal. We shouldn't compare ourselves to him with regard to our own judgment:
It may not fit.

"For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise." II Cor 10:12

If we meet God's minimum for us (whatever that is) we will receive our "penny" (the payment per Matt 20:1-15).

You speak of the thief on the cross, the good one, as if his way has to be our way. Remember that the Body of Christ is to consist of many parts or members and like the natural body of a man those different parts or members are to have different functions. They are all given opportunity and means to accomplish their particular function, if they will.

Back to the thief: Was he not in a position that few others, if any others, have ever found themselves? That man saw in the flesh Jesus while He was being crucified, but He was not yet dead, much less risen.

All of us, on the other hand, were not born of woman, or of the Spirit (if we have been so born) until after the Crucifixion of Jesus, after the Resurrection of Jesus, and after that first Outpouring of the Holy Ghost. How could we follow the pattern of the man? You say by believing and, of course, you are correct, But that man, (the thief) did what he was supposed to do and in the end made the right choice. The other thief did not. Those two may be comparable because their most significant final moments are described, but I cannot even describe my own final moments. Since yours haven't arrived yet, neither can you.

 

[brakelite]

@ Barney and @DHC.
Written by the hand or finger of God are ten laws which are fundamental to moral righteousness. Many say they have been abrogated as far as the Christian is concerned, some say otherwise. Some keep 9 of the commandments according to the grace given them, others all 10, also according to the light and grace given them. You both brought up the Sabbath, and tempting me demanded to know if not keeping the Sabbath was sin, and desiring that I judge you in this matter. I will not. I did not write those laws. You do not have to answer to me for your reluctance to obey the Sabbath, nor any other commandment. Whatever is written, whether you deliberately disobey or ignore, is for you to justify before God, not me. It is before Him we all must stand and give account. All I can say is that if you choose to ignore any commandment of God, whatever it may be, you better have a very very good reason.
Nor do I have to justify Sabbath keeping before you. However what I will say is this. It is my firm and unshakable belief that 17 years ago as I surrendered wholly to my Savior, He revealed what I maintain is the truth of the Sabbath obligation for Christians. Now I fully appreciate that the majority disagree that that is possible, thus my testimony must be false. If I am deceived on the subject of Sabbath keeping, then convince me from the scriptures, which way to turn. That is when you can all agree on the alternatives.....There are many variations to what Sabbath keeping now means. Some 'rest in Christ' and thus do away with a literal day, others claim to observe every day, yet others observe Sunday.
So what is my duty as a Sabbath keeping Christian then as far as sharing my beliefs on the Sabbath? Simply this. I will not judge anyone for sincerely believing something else. If it comes up in discussion however, I will point out what scripture says on the subject, and leave it as best I may to the Holy Spirit to teach and reveal. BTW, it isn't only SDA that observe Sabbath. There are I understand now 600 or so different churches , both denominational and independent, who keep Sabbath. Including many Pentecostal, evangelical, and mainstream.

 

[Barny]

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No, I did not mention the 10 commandments nor were they in my mind.

Note this quote below from your earlier post

Was John the Baptist a Sabbath breaker? Was Jesus a Sabbath breaker?


Our measuring stick should never be between me and other men or other "churches". If we must really compare, look to Jesus


we ourselves have overcome the world as Jesus overcame the world?

I have come across similar doctrines to what you are sharing. And likewise these others offered similar styles in presenting their doctrine.


Note your point above about Jesus keeping the Sabbath and that we are to overcome the world just as Jesus did. You even mentioned the phrase "measuring stick" in referring to Christ. Your point above clearly suggest the law/10 commandments.


I found the others who follow the same doctrine as you did likewise in being very subtle in pointing others to the law whilst avoiding any direct reference to it. Some of them however, did eventually admit that the law/10 commandments was the "measuring stick" for righteousness.

The thief had what he was given by God and made use of it so as to receive his reward.

And that "reward" that the thief received as do all Christians is righteousness/holiness/perfection in Christ. We are complete in him, Col 2:10
And how are we judged on this?
It's based on whether we believe on Jesus. Our works are to believe on Jesus, John 6:29.

The thief made a choice based on what was at his disposal. We shouldn't compare ourselves to him with regard to our own judgment:
It may not fit.

scripture offers many warnings against works of the law for righteousness.
The alternative, which is God's will for us, is to believe on Jesus, John 6:40.

Our discussion is about God's will for us that we believe on Jesus. Judgement is based on whether we believe on Jesus or not. We shouldn't then add to this.

 

[Barny]

. All I can say is that if you choose to ignore any commandment of God, whatever it may be, you better have a very very good reason..

What do you believe is the outcome for Christians who choose to ignore commandments, such as the Sabbath?

 

[amadeus2]

I have come across similar doctrines to what you are sharing. And likewise these others offered similar styles in presenting their doctrine.

Note your point above about Jesus keeping the Sabbath and that we are to overcome the world just as Jesus did. You even mentioned the phrase "measuring stick" in referring to Christ. Your point above clearly suggest the law/10 commandments.

I found the others who follow the same doctrine as you did likewise in being very subtle in pointing others to the law whilst avoiding any direct reference to it. Some of them however, did eventually admit that the law/10 commandments was the "measuring stick" for righteousness.

I don't use the law/10 commandments as you suggest. My purpose was not to deceive but to discuss: to learn as well as to share. I am sorry you are quick to draw conclusions put others down.

And that "reward" that the thief received as do all Christians is righteousness/holiness/perfection in Christ. We are complete in him, Col 2:10
And how are we judged on this?
It's based on whether we believe on Jesus. Our works are to believe on Jesus, John 6:29.

Absolutely, but what does it mean to believe on Jesus? Does everyone, who says he believes, really believe?

scripture offers many warnings against works of the law for righteousness.
The alternative, which is God's will for us, is to believe on Jesus, John 6:40.

Probably not many have seen Him clearly and not many have believed on Him although many have said that they did.

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

Our discussion is about God's will for us that we believe on Jesus. Judgement is based on whether we believe on Jesus or not. We shouldn't then add to this.

It seems that you have judged me and anyone else whose opinion doesn't seem to line up with yours, although you apparently do not have a clue what it is that I believe. Since you want to lecture rather than discuss I hope you have at least the right foundation.

I am sorry to have disturbed you. When there is an open hearted discussion, I may be this way again. May God richly bless you as you walk with Him!

 

[Barny]

I don't use the law/10 commandments as you suggest. My purpose was not to deceive but to discuss: to learn as well as to share. I am sorry you are quick to draw conclusions put others down. !

Your presentation of the doctrine you want to share is very similar to what I have experienced from many others who subtly point to the law but refuse to actually mention the law. With this in mind, hopefully you will understand my concerns.

If you claim you are not like those I've described above, then can I suggest that you discuss in an open hearted, direct way instead. Being open and direct is far better.

Absolutely, but what does it mean to believe on Jesus? Does everyone, who says he believes, really believe?

perhaps you you can explain what you think it is to believe on a Jesus.

I must say though, that those who I described above had similarly tried to make people doubt their salvation based on believing on Jesus. Hopefully you are not presenting the same approach

 

[brakelite]

What do you believe is the outcome for Christians who choose to ignore commandments, such as the Sabbath?

Precisely the same as one who chose to take up a habit of stealing.

 

[Barny]

Precisely the same as one who chose to take up a habit of stealing.

To help me understand your points better, can you answer the following to clarify your position.

You mentioned a distinguishing descriptor, "habit".

What determines whether a Christian is " habitually" transgressing the law?
is it 7x70 transgressions?

and what are the consequences should a Christian be "habitually" transgressing the law, such as neglecting the Sabbath?

And can you provide scriptures to answer these questions?

thanks

 

[B-A-C]

Fornication/adultery is in spiritual terms here.
Note Eph 5:32 to see what marriage God refers to in most scriptures.

Well, I certainly disagree it's "most scripture" that refers to marriage anyway, ok.
Matt 22:30; Matt 24:38; Mark 12:25; Luke 2:36; Luke 17:27; Luke 20:34-35; 1 Cor 7:2-38; 1 Tim 4:3; Heb 13:4; Eph 5:22-23;
All appear to be about men and women.

So how exactly do you commit spiritual adultery/fornication?
If unbelief is the only sin we can commit, how can we commit adultery or fornication?

Fornication - sex outside of marriage.
Adultery - sex with someone besides your spouse.

If unbelief is the only sin I can commit, and I believe in Jesus, then what does it matter if I'm committing "spiritual adultery"?

 

[amadeus2]

Your presentation of the doctrine you want to share is very similar to what I have experienced from many others who subtly point to the law but refuse to actually mention the law. With this in mind, hopefully you will understand my concerns.

Certainly I understand concerns. I do not support any particular doctrines, but try to follow what God lays on my heart from my prayers and readings as each situation arises and as the Holy Ghost directs. Few people anywhere would always would agree with me on specific beliefs. (Even the man I honor as my pastor doesn't stand where I stand on some things.) In part, certainly, they may be correct to disagree for I do not have all of the answers to everyone's questions. I readily admit that. I readily admit that sometimes my own carnal concerns cause me to quench the Spirit, but I do continue to ask God to help me improve. "

And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52

Can I not with the Lord's help also have Him increase in me?

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

As Paul put it, "God gives the increase".

If you claim you are not like those I've described above, then can I suggest that you discuss in an open hearted, direct way instead. Being open and direct is far better.

I strive to be open and direct, but I do not go much into long detailed discussions as some of those I have seen on this forum. For hypothetical situations often there is no definitive answer from God. A second reason, or excuse if you will, for not often pursuing such things too deeply with you, or anyone, is that I am 70 years old and my mind is definitely not as it once was. Yes, I can sometimes come up with an answer, but if I cannot and I stand on it being time to remain silent (Ecc 3:1,7) because I do know or because I simply am not inclined to answer, would you accept that or would you attack my integrity? The last question is not intended for you to answer.

I do deal with real people, occasionally here on this forum and other Christian forums, but also in face to face meetings. Sometimes all people require is a little bit of love and understanding. Are those not more important than the doctrines a person holds? How did Jesus treat even the one who He knew was going to betray Him?

perhaps you can explain what you think it is to believe on a Jesus.

Believe on Jesus? Did not Paul say that the devils believe? Are they also as devils to be saved? What we have to do is embrace the Truth (Jesus) and love it and then will we not believe on Jesus? Do we have to know all Truth to embrace it and love it?

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Heb 11:1

I must say though, that those who I described above had similarly tried to make people doubt their salvation based on believing on Jesus. Hopefully you are not presenting the same approach

I have been saved, am being saved, and hope to continue to be saved. Yesterday is gone. Tomorrow is not to worry about. And today?

"This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it." Psalm 118:24

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Matt 5:16

 

[NoHype]

I see the argument of some here who try to propose God's saving Grace through His Son Jesus Christ did away with all of God's laws like the wicked would like to think is still going on. Those don't know anymore about the difference between the Old Covenant and laws God made with Israel and how many of God's laws are still in effect under Christ Jesus and the New Covenant.

Here's an example again that Apostle Paul gave about God's laws that are still manifested under the New Covenant...

1 Tim 1:8-11
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
(KJV)

Paul says that "According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God" which was committed to his trust.

What the Judaizers of Pharisee converts to Christ tried to do was make following God's law a requirement for Salvation through Christ Jesus. None here have ever proposed that idea, even though the murmerers here would like you to think they have so they can destroy God's laws that are still in effect today with those Christ entrusted His Kingdom to temporarily until He comes to inherit David's throne on earth.

Another point is that the Judaizers (or Pharisee converts) couldn't keep God's laws themselves, and they were always making up their own 'traditions' and 'doctrines' of the "commandments of men" to try and supplant God's laws and kingdom.

What Apostle Paul covered there above involve laws against wickedness that are still in effect in today's court systems in the Christian nations. It's not about Christ's saving Grace, it's about rule upon this earth using law so that we might enjoy peace. Law officers and justices (court judges) aren't traditionally called officers and justices of the peace for nothing you know.

But we can see today, even with certain factions within Christianity also, there are those who want to do away with all of God's laws so that peace is taken off the streets among Christ's people. Those aren't arguing Grace, they're arguing against Christ and Apostles like Paul who showed that not all of God's laws were nailed to Christ's cross. They're arguing against what God made His laws for, for the wicked and unrighteous, like Apostle Paul said.

Another revelation...

Gen 49:10
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto Him shall the gathering of the people be.
(KJV)

God has ordained that the tribe of Judah will maintain the royal sceptre rule all the way up to Christ's second coming, and then to Christ will the gathering of the people be. That name "Shiloh" there is being used as a symbolic name for our Lord Jesus Christ. But God through Jacob there about the last days also showed that a lawgiver would neither depart from among Judah all the way to up to Christ's return also.

This is why there are so many Jews sitting in the positions of the law today, even among the Christian nations. God ordained it, even for us under Christ so there would be peace for His people. Granted that those in position of dishing out the law aren't perfect, but still, there it is. So to try and go against it is to go against what God Himself has ordained all the way up to Christ's second coming.

So just who are these leaders in Christ's Church that are trying to do away with all of God's laws so the murderers and thieves can walk freely upon our streets?

 

[DHC]

Believe on Jesus? Did not Paul say that the devils believe? Are they also as devils to be saved? What we have to do is embrace the Truth (Jesus) and love it and then will we not believe on Jesus? Do we have to know all Truth to embrace it and love it?

Hello Amadeus2.

Have been reading your posts on this thread Armadeus and agree with you to some extent.
Also will be very soft on you considering that you stated that you have seen many sunsets.

But I am not sure what you meant by the following line.

Believe on Jesus? Did not Paul say that the devils believe? Are they also as devils to be saved?

I do not think that Paul was the author of the reference to devils believing Armadeus.

James 2
19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

If you read the verse above Amadeus, James was talking about the devils believing
'God is one'. James does not state that the devils believe in Jesus Christ. Also it is not
'believing in Jesus' that results in salvation, it is believing in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

How do you read the following verse Armadeus?

Philippians 3:2-3
Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision;
for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in
Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh.

 

[DHC]

Paul who showed that not all of God's laws were nailed to Christ's cross.

Hello NoHype.

Not sure what you meant to say NoHype.

Paul who showed that not all of God's laws were nailed to Christ's cross.

I read your post and did not understand your post NoHype.

Can you expand on the line you wrote above, below is the scripture your referring to.

Colossians 2
11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

 

[RJ]

I see the argument of some here who try to propose God's saving Grace through His Son Jesus Christ did away with all of God's laws like the wicked would like to think is still going on. Those don't know anymore about the difference between the Old Covenant and laws God made with Israel and how many of God's laws are still in effect under Christ Jesus and the New Covenant.

Here's an example again that Apostle Paul gave about God's laws that are still manifested under the New Covenant...

1 Tim 1:8-11
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
(KJV)

Paul says that "According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God" which was committed to his trust.

What the Judaizers of Pharisee converts to Christ tried to do was make following God's law a requirement for Salvation through Christ Jesus. None here have ever proposed that idea, even though the murmerers here would like you to think they have so they can destroy God's laws that are still in effect today with those Christ entrusted His Kingdom to temporarily until He comes to inherit David's throne on earth.

Another point is that the Judaizers (or Pharisee converts) couldn't keep God's laws themselves, and they were always making up their own 'traditions' and 'doctrines' of the "commandments of men" to try and supplant God's laws and kingdom.

What Apostle Paul covered there above involve laws against wickedness that are still in effect in today's court systems in the Christian nations. It's not about Christ's saving Grace, it's about rule upon this earth using law so that we might enjoy peace. Law officers and justices (court judges) aren't traditionally called officers and justices of the peace for nothing you know.

But we can see today, even with certain factions within Christianity also, there are those who want to do away with all of God's laws so that peace is taken off the streets among Christ's people. Those aren't arguing Grace, they're arguing against Christ and Apostles like Paul who showed that not all of God's laws were nailed to Christ's cross. They're arguing against what God made His laws for, for the wicked and unrighteous, like Apostle Paul said.

Another revelation...

Gen 49:10
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto Him shall the gathering of the people be.
(KJV)

God has ordained that the tribe of Judah will maintain the royal sceptre rule all the way up to Christ's second coming, and then to Christ will the gathering of the people be. That name "Shiloh" there is being used as a symbolic name for our Lord Jesus Christ. But God through Jacob there about the last days also showed that a lawgiver would neither depart from among Judah all the way to up to Christ's return also.

This is why there are so many Jews sitting in the positions of the law today, even among the Christian nations. God ordained it, even for us under Christ so there would be peace for His people. Granted that those in position of dishing out the law aren't perfect, but still, there it is. So to try and go against it is to go against what God Himself has ordained all the way up to Christ's second coming.

So just who are these leaders in Christ's Church that are trying to do away with all of God's laws so the murderers and thieves can walk freely upon our streets?

I see the argument of some here who try to propose God's saving Grace through His Son Jesus Christ did away with all of God's laws like the wicked would like to think is still going on. Those don't know anymore about the difference between the Old Covenant and laws God made with Israel and how many of God's laws are still in effect under Christ Jesus and the New Covenant

• I was wondering what your interpretation of the following: Hebrews 8:13

 

[brakelite]

To help me understand your points better, can you answer the following to clarify your position.

You mentioned a distinguishing descriptor, "habit".

What determines whether a Christian is " habitually" transgressing the law?
is it 7x70 transgressions?

I would say that 490 transgressions would probably constitute a habit, yes. Wouldn't you?

and what are the consequences should a Christian be "habitually" transgressing the law, such as neglecting the Sabbath?

That would depend on whether he repents and turns away from that habit.

And can you provide scriptures to answer these questions?

To the first question, no, as it is fairly subjective. What is a habit for one person may not mean a habit for another. Then of course a habit can progress into an addiction. Either way, God is able to deliver anyone from addictions and habits. I don't think I need to provide a scripture to support that. If in your own life God hasn't delivered you from habits and/or addictions to sin and/or lifestyle practices inappropriate to Christian behaviour then you haven't lived. As to providing scripture to the second question, the consequences of unrepented sin...the entire Bible is awash with such warnings. If you've missed them,then you must be reading very very selectively.

Now let me ask a question of my own. You claimed a few posts ago that it is impossible for man to fully overcome sin in this life. My question is why?

 

[amadeus2]

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Hello Amadeus2.
Have been reading your posts on this thread Armadeus and agree with you to some extent.
Also will be very soft on you considering that you stated that you have seen many sunsets.

Hello DHC,

The sunsets are bothersome mostly to some things of flesh once enjoyed, tennis, for example. I was never great, but I enjoyed playing until my lungs would not allow me to run as I needed to run.

But I am not sure what you meant by the following line.

Believe on Jesus? Did not Paul say that the devils believe? Are they also as devils to be saved?


I do not think that Paul was the author of the reference to devils believing Armadeus.

James 2
19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

My bad! I should have checked my source instead speaking off the top of my head.

If you read the verse above Amadeus, James was talking about the devils believing
'God is one'. James does not state that the devils believe in Jesus Christ. Also it is not
'believing in Jesus' that results in salvation, it is believing in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I agree that the above verse is not a good one for my point. Try this one:

"And in the synagogue there was a man, which had “And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice,

Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.” Luke 4:33-34

Seemingly they (the devils) believed that Jesus was very special, "the” Holy One of God. That did not make them disciples of Christ nor did it save them, did it? There is believing and then again there is believing, but they can be two very different things.

How do you read the following verse Armadeus?

Philippians 3:2-3
Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision;
for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in
Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh.”

Dogs are beasts and men are as beasts. There are a number of Bible verses speaking of men that way. Wisdom has killed her beasts (Prov 9:1-2). Why?

Consider the clean and unclean beasts in the OT (Old Testament). The unclean were not to be eaten. When a person is first drawn to God, a new convert, he usually knows nothing of the Word of God. He doesn’t usually start out as a Spirit filled preacher of teacher. On the contrary he is an "unclean beast" needing to be cleaned out and filled with some good things of God.

Consider Noah’s Ark. Three levels of creatures were saved including some unclean (bottom level) and some clean beasts (middle level).

But if the most Holy Place in the tabernacle in the wilderness corresponds to the highest level of the Ark built by Noah, how does the believer attain to it? In the OT, he did not as a time and place was made only for the High Priest once a year, but Jesus came to make a Way where there was no way. He became a door, the Door…

 

[DHC]

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Hello DHC,

The sunsets are bothersome mostly to some things of flesh once enjoyed, tennis, for example. I was never great, but I enjoyed
playing until my lungs would not allow me to run as I needed to run.

Tennis is a great game to play I agree.

My bad! I should have checked my source instead speaking off the top of my head.

We all do that from time to time and I already knew what you meant.
But we have a silent audience of readers that we always need to be conscious of.

"And in the synagogue there was a man, which had “And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil,
and cried out with a loud voice, Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us?
I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.” Luke 4:33-34Seemingly they (the devils) believed that Jesus was very special,
"the” Holy One of God. That did not make them disciples of Christ nor did it save them, did it? There is believing and then again there is believing,
but they can be two very different things.

Probably a better definition of believing would be not so much knowing the identity of the Christ.
But believing in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the power inherent in the indwelling Holy Spirit. The power to not only to justify and
sanctify us but also to enable us to live as spiritual people, reconciled people, new creations.

But if the most Holy Place in the tabernacle in the wilderness corresponds to the highest level of the Ark built by Noah, how does the believer attain to it?
In the OT, he did not as a time and place was made only for the High Priest once a year, but Jesus came to make a Way where there was no way.
He became a door, the Door…

Yes Armadeus, Christ is the fulfillment of the Old Testament shadows.

 

[amadeus2]

We all do that from time to time and I already knew what you meant.
But we have a silent audience of readers that we always need to be conscious of.

So for them hopefully silence is always golden and what is written is flawless.

Probably a better definition of believing would be not so much knowing the identity of the Christ.
But believing in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the power inherent in the indwelling Holy Spirit. The power to not only to justify and
sanctify us but also to enable us to live as spiritual people, reconciled people, new creations.

Amen!

Yes Armadeus, Christ is the fulfillment of the Old Testament shadows.

The OT will sometimes help clarify a lot of the murkiness. Jesus continuously drew from what was already written as he walked and talked the land of Israel.

Thanks for the kind conversation, DHC. I will likely see you around the forum from time to time.