Contemporary Judaizers

[Barny]

If (first) you love Me, (then) keep My commandments.

1 John 2:3,4 And hereby we do know that we know Him (first) , if we (then) keep His commandments.
He that saith "I know Him" and keepeth not His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.

You are incorrectly assuming this speaks of the law with its 10 commandments (aka: law of sin and death ).

But consider 1John3:22,23 to see what commandments it actually refers to.
And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.


You seem to claim that evidence of salvation, through obedience to the law, is not required. Is that correct?
Perhaps you can answer using the following example.

There are many Christians who do not keep the Saturday Sabbath holy. If they never keep the Sabbath holy, even though they grow very close in their relationship with Christ, where do they stand?
Is their walk in the flesh or Spirit?
Is their relationship with Christ as close as those who claim to keep the Sabbath holy?
Is their neglect for the Saturday Sabbath "sin" that can be charged against them?

 

[DHC]

I agree, and I disagree with that DHC

I agree that scripture does not say that obedience to the law is what God requires of us. ....
.....I disagree that saying such is my theology.

I have repeated many many times, and it seems most here simply dont want to believe it, or think I am lying,so I will do so again it seems for your benefit, and may you please don't forget this....God first and foremost requires a relationship with His people. Eternal life is that we may know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom the Father sent. (John 17:3) That is first. That is our priority. Jesus did not say "Keep the commandments". He said abide in Me. The result, the fruit, of that relationship is obedience to God's law.
God first and foremost desires we become like Jesus. (Romans 8:29) The result, the fruit, of becoming like Jesus is obedience to God's law.
God first and foremost desires that we love one another. And the result, the fruit of that love is the fulfilling of the law.
If (first) you love Me, (then) keep My commandments.

1 John 2:3,4 And hereby we do know that we know Him (first) , if we (then) keep His commandments.
He that saith "I know Him" and keepeth not His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

Hello Brakelite.

God first and foremost desires that we love one another.

That is correct Brakelite and you have the truth at this point.

Then you apply your sda bag of tricks and alter the concept of love itself.

Which you now declare in the next line.

And the result, the fruit of that love is the fulfilling of the law.

It is irrelevant that the scripture never says that we are under the ten commandments.
You even admit that this is true and this does frustrate you no doubt. Perhaps Brakelite
the reason that we are not told this is because it was never taught by the apostles.

For the SDA movement teaches that the phrase 'the law' means the ten commandments.

But sadly the SDA movement also teaches that the phrase 'the law' means the ceremonial law.

This is the tricky part of the whole legalist argument. Two meanings for the one phrase is
a well practiced methodology when reading the scripture.

Though the interpretation of the phrase varies from passage to passage throughout the
New Testament, this is acceptable and you have been taught to accept the dual meaning.

This double interpretation of 'the law' must be applied otherwise one is left without 'the law' Brakelite.
You are well aware that if you read the phrase as is, then the game is over.

So when Paul states 'But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. (Galatians 5:18)

Paul is actually saying 'But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the ceremonial Law'.

When Paul states 'if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”' (Romans 7:7)

Paul is really saying 'if the ten commandments had not said, “You shall not covet.”'.

The problem is Brakelite 'the law' always means the same thing in the scripture.
Paul is not blundering in his usage of the phrase 'the law'. Paul is simply stating
what we already know that the Gentiles never had 'the law'. Nor were the Gentiles
ever to receive the law, or more succinctly a Gentile cannot be under the law.

Here is the contradiction for you Brakelite, see if you can follow the logic.

Let's assume that the Gentile are not under the law, meaning they are not under the
ceremonial law (Galatians 5:18). If this is the case then logically the Gentiles must be
under the ten commandments by default. Hence, we are left with no option now but that
the Gentiles are under the law anyway regardless of Paul. For the law is the ten commandments
and we know that the Gentiles are under the law. So contrary to Paul's initial statement the
Gentiles are under the law.

Why does Paul mishandle the phrase 'the law' throughout his letters?

 

[brakelite]

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

The problem is Brakelite 'the law' always means the same thing in the scripture.
Paul is not blundering in his usage of the phrase 'the law'. Paul is simply stating
what we already know that the Gentiles never had 'the law'. Nor were the Gentiles
ever to receive the law, or more succinctly a Gentile cannot be under the law.

So DHC, because you believe that there is only one law and Paul in all his references to law mean the same thing, maybe you could unpack the above scripture and make sense of it for us?

 

[brakelite]

There are many Christians who do not keep the Saturday Sabbath holy. If they never keep the Sabbath holy, even though they grow very close in their relationship with Christ, where do they stand?
Is their walk in the flesh or Spirit?
Is their relationship with Christ as close as those who claim to keep the Sabbath holy?
Is their neglect for the Saturday Sabbath "sin" that can be charged against them?

For them that knoweth to do good but doeth it not, to them it is sin. James 4:17

 

[Barny]

For them that knoweth to do good but doeth it not, to them it is sin. James 4:17

Hi brakelite,

Consider the context of James 4:17 before assuming what "good" means.
I suspect you understand "good" to mean obeying the 10 commandments. Is that correct?

Note James 4:4 to see who it addresses to help get context.
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Here we see it addresses spiritual adulterers who are in adultery with Hagar (symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24).

Note also James 4:7,8
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Here we see a salvation call to these spiritual adulterers who are lost, in unbelief, which is evidenced by the fact they follow doctrines where righteousness is determined by obedience to the law.

And note James 4:12.
There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

Further confirmation that the context of this chapter is referring to legalists/spiritual adulterers, who judge righteousness by obedience to the law.

So what is the "good" that James 4:17 speaks of?
It refers to believing on Jesus. This is the will of God (John 6:40, 1Thess 4:3,). Our works are to believe on Jesus, John 6:29. The "good" that we are to do is to believe on Jesus.
Unbelief in Jesus is the sin the world is convicted of, John 16:9.

So back to my questions.
There are many Christians who do not keep the Saturday Sabbath holy. If they never keep the Sabbath holy, even though they grow very close in their relationship with Christ, where do they stand?
Is their walk in the flesh or Spirit?
Is their relationship with Christ as close as those who claim to keep the Sabbath holy?
Is their neglect for the Saturday Sabbath "sin" that can be charged against them?

You claim from your understanding of James 4:17 that if Christians don't know that they're supposed to keep the Saturday Sabbath, then that's ok.
So are you saying that a Christian who never keeps the Sabbath is still walking in the spirit and is just as close to God as someone who does keep the Saturday Sabbath?

 

[B-A-C]

Here we see it addresses spiritual adulterers who are in adultery with Hagar (symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24).

Except Hagar's (an Egyptian) children (Ishmael) weren't Jews and didn't adhere to the law. Ishmael had 12 sons (like Isaac a Patriarch of the Jews) and he was circumcised.
Ishmael was the father of the non-Jewish Palestinians. The "righteous" works of the law (circumcision, sacrifice, etc..) are always called the law
in the New Testament and the commandments are always called the commandments. The two are sometimes confused with each other, but they aren't the same thing. Matt 5:17; for example is talking about the law ( nom-os ). Matt 5:19; is talking about the commandments ( entole' ).

We are told over a dozen times in the New Testament the old law doesn't save us. Yet we are told over 15 times in the New Testament to keep the commandments.

There was another Ishmael in the Bible, the son of Nethaniah.

 

[B-A-C]

So what is the "good" that James 4:17 speaks of?
It refers to believing on Jesus. This is the will of God (John 6:40, 1 Thess 4:3, . Our works are to believe on Jesus, John 6:29. The "good" that we are to do is to believe on Jesus.
Unbelief in Jesus is the sin the world is convicted of, John 16:9.

This is a lot like saying Ford is a mustang. While partially true, Ford makes a lot more than mustangs.

Unbelief is a sin that we will be judged for, but it isn't the only one.

Heb 13:4; Marriage is to be held in honor among all, and the marriage bed is to be undefiled; for fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

1 Pet 4:3; For the time already past is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries.
1 Pet 4:4; In all this, your former companions are surprised that you do not run with them into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign you;
1 Pet 4:5; but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

Those a just a few examples, there are more. For example the separating of the sheep and goats is an example of judging as well.

1 Pet 4:17; For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
1 Pet 4:18; And if it is with difficulty that the righteous is saved, what will become of the godless man and the sinner?

Conviction implies doing something wrong, illegal or immoral. Can a non-believer have the Holy Spirit? Can he be convicted by something he doesn't have for something he doesn't think is wrong?

 

[DHC]

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

So DHC, because you believe that there is only one law and Paul in all his references to law mean the same thing, maybe you could unpack the above scripture and make sense of it for us?

Hello Brakelite.

You asked for an interpretation of (Romans 8:2-7).

May I ask why you neglected the first line?

Romans 8
1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

 

[brakelite]

Hello Brakelite.

You asked for an interpretation of (Romans 8:2-7).

May I ask why you neglected the first line?

Romans 8
1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Because that first line is conditional on the ones I quoted, particularly verse 4.

 

[amadeus2]

There are many Christians who do not keep the Saturday Sabbath holy. If they never keep the Sabbath holy, even though they grow very close in their relationship with Christ, where do they stand?

If their primary concern is on that one point, then will not God judge them according to their concern and find that they are always falling short of pleasing Him? Is there nothing else that should concern us more than properly keeping the Sabbath? If, instead of the Sabbath a person's primary concern really is to please God, does it not seem more likely that he will please God?

David, certainly understood what was the most important thing:

"Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me." Psalm 51:10-11

What David understood was how to please God:

O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall show forth thy praise.

For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Psalm 51:15-17

Is their walk in the flesh or Spirit?

What does it mean to walk in the Spirit?

"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." John 17:21-23

Do you suppose that someone who did keep the Sabbath letter perfect according to the law God gave to Moses would definitely make it into the kingdom of God? Was John the Baptist a Sabbath breaker? Was Jesus a Sabbath breaker?

Is their relationship with Christ as close as those who claim to keep the Sabbath holy?

Will comparing people with people improve people, that is, bring them closer to God? Paul said, "For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise." II Cor 10:12

Our measuring stick should never be between me and other men or other "churches". If we must really compare, look to Jesus and then to ourselves. You may be better than me, but I am in the lowest pit of hell and you are just one step higher, it is still not a "good" place to be, is it?

Is their neglect for the Saturday Sabbath "sin" that can be charged against them?

Who will charge them if they are guilty in their neglect? Should we judge others by their what seem to us to be their shortcomings, before we ourselves have overcome the world as Jesus overcame the world?

Jesus for called a person who was without sin to cast the first stone, and there were no takers. Jesus, the only one there in that meeting of people who was definitely without sin, showed mercy and told the woman to go and sin no more. Where were we? Where are we? If we are sinless, then let us be merciful. If we are not sinless, then let us walk away and leave the judgment of others where it belongs.

 

[brakelite]

@Barney. So Barney, according to your philosophy James must be speaking of spiritual adultery and/or covetousness here...
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

and here...

21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness,

and here....

9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

and here....

11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

and here...

14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

and here....

1 ¶ From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

and here....

4 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.
5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.

and here...

9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned:

James is not telling his Christian readers that they cannot sin, but is clearly warning them against sin. Real sin, real transgression against God's commandments.
And Hagar is not a warning against reverting to the law of Moses in order to gain salvation. The law of Moses hadn't even been given then. It was a type of those who by their own efforts seek the approval of God and gain salvation, or attain to righteousness.

Just as Abraham did with Hagar. His error at that time never negated the need for him to obey God's commandment later when offering Isaac. His faith made his obedience possible. His faith didn't render obedience obsolete as you would have us believe.

 

[DHC]

Except Hagar's (an Egyptian) children (Ishmael) weren't Jews and didn't adhere to the law. Ishmael had 12 sons (like Isaac a Patriarch of the Jews) and he was circumcised.
Ishmael was the father of the non-Jewish Palestinians. The "righteous" works of the law (circumcision, sacrifice, etc..) are always called the law
in the New Testament and the commandments are always called the commandments. The two are sometimes confused with each other, but they aren't the same thing. Matt 5:17; for example is talking about the law ( nom-os ). Matt 5:19; is talking about the commandments ( entole' ).

We are told over a dozen times in the New Testament the old law doesn't save us. Yet we are told over 15 times in the New Testament to keep the commandments.

There was another Ishmael in the Bible, the son of Nethaniah.

Hello B-A-C.

You stated the following in post #146

works of the law (circumcision, sacrifice, etc..) are always called the law in the
New Testament and the commandments are always called the commandments.

What you have stated is simply not true B-A-C, you may have been taught this. But
the scripture declares that 'the law' is the whole law given at Mt Sinai.

If what you say is true B-A-C, then could you please explain the verse below.

Romans 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary,
I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not
have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

'You shall not covet' is the Law B-A-C and this is what the scripture says.

This is not my interpretation B-A-C.

 

[B-A-C]

Romans 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary,
I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not
have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

'You shall not covet' is the Law B-A-C and this is what the scripture says.

That isn't the law. That is a small part of the law. Or is coveting the only sin in the law?
We are again back to saying a mustang is Ford.

 

[DHC]

Because that first line is conditional on the ones I quoted, particularly verse 4.

Hello Brakelite.
That is a very challenging demand Brakelite to unpack (Romans 8:1-7).
Because to understand Romans chapter eight one needs to strictly obey
the context of the entire letter. Failure to heed the general context results
in a distorted interpretation.
To accurately interpret chapter eight requires access to chapter seven and
chapter six. Brakelite, this means of course that the resulting post will be
rather large. If you are willing to read a large post then I will do as you ask,
if not then I will not proceed. Your decision Brakelite.

 

[DHC]

That isn't the law. That is a small part of the law. Or is coveting the only sin in the law?
We are again back to saying a mustang is Ford.

Hello B-A-C.

Is any commandment or all the commandments referred to as 'the law' in the scripture?

 

[Barny]

The "righteous" works of the law (circumcision, sacrifice, etc..) are always called the law
in the New Testament and the commandments are always called the commandments. The two are sometimes confused with each other, but they aren't the same thing. Matt 5:17; for example is talking about the law ( nom-os ). Matt 5:19; is talking about the commandments ( entole' ).

We are told over a dozen times in the New Testament the old law doesn't save us. Yet we are told over 15 times in the New Testament to keep the commandments.
.

Hi B-A-C,

Thanks for your explaination.
We disagree on it unfortunately, and have discussed it previously. Note what DHC has to say on it. You are splitting the law up, but this is not supported in scripture.

 

[Barny]

Unbelief is a sin that we will be judged for, but it isn't the only one.
Heb 13:4; Marriage is to be held in honor among all, and the marriage bed is to be undefiled; for fornicators and adulterers God will judge

.

Fornication/adultery is in spiritual terms here.
Note Eph 5:32 to see what marriage God refers to in most scriptures.
This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Christians are married to Christ. We believe on Jesus. We're saved by grace.

Anyone who then turns to the law for righteousness (even mixing grace with works of the law) is fornicating with Hagar ( symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24).

1 Pet 4:3; For the time already past is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries.
1 Pet 4:4; In all this, your former companions are surprised that you do not run with them into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign you;
1 Pet 4:5; but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

Again this is spiritual.

Drunkenness for example is referring to being spiritually drunk with the wine of fornication with Hagar (righteousness by works of the law).
Note Rev 17:1,2
Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me,“Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

You seem to be suggesting that physical drunkenness means such persons are lost. Physical drunkenness is not even listed in the 10 commandments, which your focus is always upon. Can you see the contradiction in this doctrine that you follow?

Those a just a few examples, there are more. For example the separating of the sheep and goats is an example of judging as well.

Regarding Matt 25; the sheep and goats, below are some scriptures to give the spiritual context to what is feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, taking in the stranger, etc.

What is the spiritual food/drink that mankind is in need of?
It's Christ Jesus.
1 Cor 10:3-4
And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Who are those in spiritual prison?
It's those who are without Christ.
Isa 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

And what is the state of mankind without Christ?
It's sick, and needing to hear the gospel of Christ.
Isa 1:5-6
Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

And how are the naked clothed?
Isa 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, My soul shall be joyful in my God; For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,

And who is the stranger?
Eph 2:12
that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Eph 2:19
Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

So we see scripture speaking in spiritual terms regarding preaching the gospel of grace. And in doing the works of believing in Jesus, John 6:29, Christians also let their light shine preaching the gospel of Christ to spiritually feed, clothe, heal and set free, the lost.
Matt 5:14-16
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works (believing in Jesus, John 6:29), and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

1 Pet 4:17; For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
1 Pet 4:18; And if it is with difficulty that the righteous is saved, what will become of the godless man and the sinner?

This is what it's all about. Obey the gospel which is believing on Jesus. This is God's will (John 6:40, 1Thess 4:3).

But anyone who follows the lukewarm mix of works of the law (10 commandments) with grace, then such are rejecting the gospel. Such need to repent of their dead works or else they'll be judged as being in unbelief and thus ungodly, sinners, as 1Pet 4:18 describes.

 

[Barny]

If their primary concern is on that one point, then will not God judge them according to their concern and find that they are always falling short of pleasing Him? Is there nothing else that should concern us more than properly keeping the Sabbath? If, instead of the Sabbath a person's primary concern really is to please God, does it not seem more likely that he will please God? .

Hi armadeus2

You seem to be suggesting a lukewarm doctrine that mixes grace with works of the law. Unless I'm misunderstanding your point above, you seem to be suggesting that only those who keep the Saturday Sabbath will be saved.

I suggest you read posts from others such as DHC and myself to see what scripture confirms about the gospel. You will note there's no works of the law included as that would deny grace, as God describes in Rom 11:6.

 

[Barny]

@Barney. So Barney, according to your philosophy James must be speaking of spiritual adultery and/or covetousness here...
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Yes, it's spiritual. Remember scripture is spiritually discerned, 1Cor 2:14

and here...
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness,.

Note the rest of that verse for context. James 1:21-24
and receive with meekness the implanted word, (Here it refers to the gospel, believing on Jesus, and thus we're married to Christ and should not fornicate with Hagar) which is able to save your souls. But be doers of the word, (believe on Jesus and do not follow doctrines that mix grace with works of the law, which is fornication with Hagar) and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves ( those who deceive themselves are those mixing grace with works of the law and becoming drunk with the wine of fornication with Hagar, Rev 17:1). For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was ( these "hearers only" have heard the gospel but then forget that they are complete in Christ, holy, perfected and righteous, and they then instead start judging righteousness, etc by how well one obeys the law).

James is not telling his Christian readers that they cannot sin, but is clearly warning them against sin. Real sin, real transgression against God's commandments.

The sin the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9
This is the sin that James is warning against.

And Hagar is not a warning against reverting to the law of Moses in order to gain salvation. The law of Moses hadn't even been given then. It was a type of those who by their own efforts seek the approval of God and gain salvation, or attain to righteousness.

The law was at the beginning in Genesis. It was there as the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
And the tree of life is Christ.

Just as Abraham did with Hagar. His error at that time never negated the need for him to obey God's commandment later when offering Isaac. His faith made his obedience possible. His faith didn't render obedience obsolete as you would have us believe.

You seem to be suggesting here a lukewarm mix of grace with works of the law. This is the spiritual fornication (with Hagar) that God so often warns against.
But to help me understand exactly what your saying can you answer my previous questions.
If I never keep the Saturday Sabbath then am I walking in the flesh or the spirit?
If I never keep the Saturday Sabbath is my walk with God just as close as someone who always keeps the Sabbath?.

 

[amadeus2]

Originally Posted by amadeus2 If their primary concern is on that one point, then will not God judge them according to their concern and find that they are always falling short of pleasing Him? Is there nothing else that should concern us more than properly keeping the Sabbath? If, instead of the Sabbath a person's primary concern really is to please God, does it not seem more likely that he will please God?

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Barney: Hi armadeus2

You seem to be suggesting a lukewarm doctrine that mixes grace with works of the law. Unless I'm misunderstanding your point above, you seem to be suggesting that only those who keep the Saturday Sabbath will be saved.

I suggest you read posts from others such as DHC and myself to see what scripture confirms about the gospel. You will note there's no works of the law included as that would deny grace, as God describes in Rom 11:6.

No, what I was suggesting was that if a person is focusing on one point while excluding of other things that God won't allow the man to exclude, then even if he does well and good in the one thing, it will make no difference in the end, not to him it won't.

We cannot forget anything that needs to be done as per God, which means we need to do everything that God requires. The only way to do that is for God to be doing the work for no man can, not alone.

"And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?

And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:26-27

How can a man get God to do what needs to be done? That is the work of the Holy Spirit to quicken the Word in us. If allowed, the Holy Spirit will do the work in a person who has received the Holy Spirit and consumes things that can be brought to Life. Of course if a person only consumes garbage and/or continuously quenches the Holy Spirit the person will not be changed from death to Life.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->