Thanks . If everyone would just take the time slow down and read especially the verses that don't make sense to what they currently believe as truth.incorporate the whole book as God was/ is correct. Simply take the example of Isreal for what it is. To us whom the end of the world will fall.it is when Israel disobeyed the coandments bad thing happened when they did good things happened.if you have faith or it should say faithfulness. Faith stops with the idea faithfulness is something you adhear to daily.Or have the commandments been reduced to just ten. Who changed the sabbath who said it doesnt matter I have read the bible from cover to cover and it says quite the opposite.the gift of Grace was absoluy free because learning never costs anything.the truth will cost you in scoffing and mocking.after all it is a book of example did not they do this and more to your savior. Well there's your example the religious world will treat you the same way if indeed his spirit is in you.why you might ask. Because you are doing the same thing he was.most would say oh how evil those people were that crucified him Nope they were just religious. Not criticizing you only the system your okay DHC there are things you know that I don't im sure. I know you mean well or you wouldn't know what you know or have the interest ol buddy
Depart from Me, I Never Knew You ~ Meaning of Matthew 7:21-23
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Oh boy. Circumcision
Please read Gen 17:11 It shall be a token of the covenant : a token is a sign or mark OF the covenant not the covenant itself. betwixed ME and YOU>this means it was not a command to begin with but a token of.Now take a look at Deu 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart and be no more stiffnecked.This is the message fulfilled. sooo ya see its still in how you read. May i please ask why is there such a problem with the commandments why are you in such defiance of it.If you like quoting heres one in the same book of Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid yea, we establish the law.I mean hey thats right out of the mouth of Paul.How do we theorise our way around that its as plain as the nose on your face or is it simply another round peg in a square hole.go ahead its going to take a big hammer ol buddy. Dont take it like im trying to out point you just trying to make things clear for the next guy
DHC
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Hello Mike.
How about we read the whole of chapter three of the letter to the Romans. Your quotation needs to
be understood within the context of that chapter. Have a read of chapter three and tell me what you
think Paul is saying.
To tell you the truth without knowing the law what it could or could not do this chapter is challenging for anyone.i did read it form start to finish just as you asked.i broke down each verse and can easily explain what most are missing. It would take about two pages of explanations for you to grasp.Besides I would hate it if I spent this much time and get time snapped all for nothing.my email is [email protected] or call 8289258819 I will only try to explain if you get what I'm saying it could be of great value. I will not try changing your mind on the subject if it speaks to you then it will if not all we have done is used up a little time.you might find what I have to say interesting if nothing else.looking forward to hearing from you.Or anyone else. Thanks ol buddy
I think the whole problem for you is that Christ had to come save us from ourselves because the law defined sin Rom 3:20 .Romans certainly knew nothing of the law at this time.without the law they obviously would not know what sin was. exception maybe in common knowledge of how to treat one another that would by nature fulfill some aspects of the law.which is where this world is today yes mostly religious folk.Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ.should be summed up as he had no choice but to suspend the law of you will once for all men.this is where most get the idea that it was done away with and that is absolutely right.but I do say not indefinitely.Grace or this gift is truly free because learning never cost you anything just your time which is the highest form of worship.we all had to be redeamed or purchased with a price / life. Simply because man kind was so spiritually bankrupt no other had enough equity to by his brother back from his self induced poverty.Furthermore forgiveness of sin is like a deep well one can go to it as often as they need but to draw sin from it with a cart rope is not the idea here if sin is defined in the New Testament as transgressing the law. At this point just be fully convinced in your own mind as to what sin is by gods standards.
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Hello Mike.
mind at rest and I can state that the law does define sin. Though Mike, there are a multitude of sins that the law does not
define also.
If we have a closer look at the verse you quoted (Romans 3-20), and look at the previous line below.
Romans 3:19-20
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed
and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight;
for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
We know that the law is speaking to those under the law, the Jews were under the law of Moses. One does not need to be
under the law of Moses, to recognize what sin is. One only needs to view the law to realize what sin is. Though there is a very
sharp distinction between being under the dictates of the law (Jews), in a legal sense, and not being under the law (Gentiles).
Correct Mike, the Romans never grew up under the law of Moses, as Jesus and Paul did. Rome was a Gentile state with it's
own legal system. To attempt to force the Romans into obedience to the law of Moses would be absurd. For the Romans would
then be under two distinct legal systems. Now a dual legal code would be far too complex for any Roman to be expected to follow.
The definition of sin is defined by the law, I agree. Anything that is not of Faith is also sin. The good that you know you should do,
but don't do, is also sin! There is no quick and simple list of sins available to us. Sin at many levels, is simply any behavior that is
the opposite of love. The trick to understanding the absolute fulfillment of any legal system is through the implementation of love
on every occasion.
Hence Mike, the attempt to fulfill the letter of the law of Moses is a very deep error. There was only one way to fulfill the law in
the scripture. Christ has fulfilled the law for us, and Christ gave us the Holy Spirit who provides us with an abounding love. Thus this
God given love is the fulfillment of the law.
You may have the impression Mike, that the verse (Romans 3-20) presents some type of problem for me. I can put your
mind at rest and I can state that the law does define sin. Though Mike, there are a multitude of sins that the law does not
define also.
If we have a closer look at the verse you quoted (Romans 3-20), and look at the previous line below.
Romans 3:19-20
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed
and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight;
for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
We know that the law is speaking to those under the law, the Jews were under the law of Moses. One does not need to be
under the law of Moses, to recognize what sin is. One only needs to view the law to realize what sin is. Though there is a very
sharp distinction between being under the dictates of the law (Jews), in a legal sense, and not being under the law (Gentiles).
Correct Mike, the Romans never grew up under the law of Moses, as Jesus and Paul did. Rome was a Gentile state with it's
own legal system. To attempt to force the Romans into obedience to the law of Moses would be absurd. For the Romans would
then be under two distinct legal systems. Now a dual legal code would be far too complex for any Roman to be expected to follow.
The definition of sin is defined by the law, I agree. Anything that is not of Faith is also sin. The good that you know you should do,
but don't do, is also sin! There is no quick and simple list of sins available to us. Sin at many levels, is simply any behavior that is
the opposite of love. The trick to understanding the absolute fulfillment of any legal system is through the implementation of love
on every occasion.
Hence Mike, the attempt to fulfill the letter of the law of Moses is a very deep error. There was only one way to fulfill the law in
the scripture. Christ has fulfilled the law for us, and Christ gave us the Holy Spirit who provides us with an abounding love. Thus this
God given love is the fulfillment of the law.
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I read somewhere that the change to the first day of the week happened about 32AD. I'm still try to search that down, but the reasoning for the early church had validity then. Remembering that many of the early church were Jews, who took this seriously and would not have abandoned it on a whim. That they did so,means it had to be thought out and discussed among them. I've found it quoted that it had to do with the First Day of Week being the day of the Resurrection. I have also found that we Christ in us. That the observance would be one for everyday of the week. Always remembering our Lords words of in Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Here are a couple of verses that you might want to consider as it pertains to the Sabbath and the acceptability of its change.
And upon the first [day] of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. Acts 20:7
Upon the first [day] of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as [God] hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. 1 Corinthians 16:2
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: Colossians 2:16
YBIC
C4E
<><
What does this mean though
That believing homosexuals are in fact justified not in sin but by God
but just do not know that should not act out their homsexual feelings?
If they are saved by faith they will grow and come to full repenatace?
I think it does, but the question remains what are they to do?
Clearly we are not to have sex outside marriage
A obviously gay marriage is not valid marriage
According to The word of God.
So they mist come to full repentance by enlightement of the word and law then?
When i law i do not mean seek to be justified by law
But understand they are to not sin
And so by grace through faith in jesus christ and by the holy spirits power in them
Contuslly To resist sin andask for forgivness is they do sin.
I mean understand it and come out of a deception
That promotes sin being ok
When it "sin"is the reason for the need of justification by faith in the first place
That believing homosexuals are in fact justified not in sin but by God
but just do not know that should not act out their homsexual feelings?
If they are saved by faith they will grow and come to full repenatace?
I think it does, but the question remains what are they to do?
Clearly we are not to have sex outside marriage
A obviously gay marriage is not valid marriage
According to The word of God.
So they mist come to full repentance by enlightement of the word and law then?
When i law i do not mean seek to be justified by law
But understand they are to not sin
And so by grace through faith in jesus christ and by the holy spirits power in them
Contuslly To resist sin andask for forgivness is they do sin.
I mean understand it and come out of a deception
That promotes sin being ok
When it "sin"is the reason for the need of justification by faith in the first place
B-A-C
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"believing homosexuals" - "believing". What does believing mean?
This has been debated several times here on TJ, and no doubt will be again.
James 2:19; says even the demons believe. Yet they aren't saved.
Mark 1:24; and Luke 4:34; says the demons know who Jesus is.
Does "believing" in someone simply mean... hey I believe there was a guy named Jesus, and he died on a cross.
Or does believing in someone encompass everything about them.
Believing what they said, believing who they were. Believing what they taught, acting like they acted.
Believing that God will save the righteous, and judge the wicked - no matter what they say they believe.
There are many many people who profess to know Jesus... ( Matt 7:21-22; Luke 13:25-26; )
Yet a great many of them deny His deity.. (Mormon's, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc... )
Do you think they are saved simply because they believe in someone named Jesus?
We are saved by faith not works.... yes, but faith in what? Faith that we are forgiven no matter what? No matter how we live?
Or Faith that Jesus wants to change us. Faith that He can if we let Him. Faith that He forgives us if we repent.
Believing in someone means believing everything about them, believing what they taught, believing how they acted, ...and then
not just believing it... but doing it. Practicing it.
As soon as we go back to our former way of sinful living... we are in effect saying... "we don't believe everything he taught, we don't
believe we should act how he acted, we don't believe that's what saves us". There might be some who say they are "believing homosexuals"
but by their actions they deny it. ( Titus 1:16; Luke 6:46; )
Now there may be some homosexuals who are trying to repent and renounce that lifestyle, but who are still struggling with it.
This is different from those who say it isn't sin, have "gay pride", who have no desire at all to change.. and yet say they believe in Jesus.
1 Jn 3:3-5;
Curtis
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The main difference between those who practice homosexual acts, and a true Christian is we "struggle" against "sin", but they openly welcome it, even knowing in their own conscience it is wrong.
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
I had this said to me
By what i believe was NOT Jesus
It happened when i had gone to seek help from a local vicar
With a friend of mine
I was suffering a terrible crisis as i always am it seems
Anyway i was there sat in his office with my friend and i picked up a bible or book cannot remember which
But it was handy, and i was desperate for Gods word and it opened to the very parable that is being duscussed in this thread, and as i lighted upon the words i had a voice which sounded furious and truly terrifying sound the words in my head.
DEPART FROM ME I NEVER KNEW YOU
After this happened to me
The vicar said we need to be christ to each other
I thought that dont sound right to me
I know we are meant to love and care and do good to our neighbour but we are not christ
Anyway i didnt say anything and was polite etc
You have your friend there
Basically trying to reassure me
Not about the voice but about the trouble i was having .
Anyway...
That is the kind of thing i have to put up with
In my faith walk.
That was back in 1994 or so.
The vicar who was C of E a d very patient and kind man later converted to catholicism sadly.
By what i believe was NOT Jesus
It happened when i had gone to seek help from a local vicar
With a friend of mine
I was suffering a terrible crisis as i always am it seems
Anyway i was there sat in his office with my friend and i picked up a bible or book cannot remember which
But it was handy, and i was desperate for Gods word and it opened to the very parable that is being duscussed in this thread, and as i lighted upon the words i had a voice which sounded furious and truly terrifying sound the words in my head.
DEPART FROM ME I NEVER KNEW YOU
After this happened to me
The vicar said we need to be christ to each other
I thought that dont sound right to me
I know we are meant to love and care and do good to our neighbour but we are not christ
Anyway i didnt say anything and was polite etc
You have your friend there
Basically trying to reassure me
Not about the voice but about the trouble i was having .
Anyway...
That is the kind of thing i have to put up with
In my faith walk.
That was back in 1994 or so.
The vicar who was C of E a d very patient and kind man later converted to catholicism sadly.
Is not any sin pleasurable while in the act?
How else can anyone be tempted?
What i mean is if we do sin
It is because of weakness
What is the difference between a Straight christian sinning and a gay christian sinning?
If gay people cannot be justified by faith in jesus christ
Then why can straight people be justified and still sin just the same yet gay people are worse sinners?
At least a straight person can settle down and get married and have sex with someone they really lusted after and now can have and enjoy all the sex they want.
What about gay christians they cannot!
And straight people they can.
Where is the faith to heal all those poor gay people stuck with a sexuality they have to resist forever in their lives until they get to heaven.
Salvation is by faith in jesus the son of God alone
But the gifts of the spirit include the gift of faith
Special faith i mean is that a special gift? Listed as one of the ministry gifts?
Then why can straight people be justified and still sin just the same yet gay people are worse sinners?
At least a straight person can settle down and get married and have sex with someone they really lusted after and now can have and enjoy all the sex they want.
What about gay christians they cannot!
And straight people they can.
Where is the faith to heal all those poor gay people stuck with a sexuality they have to resist forever in their lives until they get to heaven.
Salvation is by faith in jesus the son of God alone
But the gifts of the spirit include the gift of faith
Special faith i mean is that a special gift? Listed as one of the ministry gifts?
Same goes for straight people who cannot get a partner or get married
What about them?
Understand i am not saying people should sin
Far from it.
But i am showing the reality of the discrepancy in regards to ways out of sexual sins
Some can marry some cannot
Not because they dont want to
But because they cannot!
What a heavy load is that to carry?
What about them?
Understand i am not saying people should sin
Far from it.
But i am showing the reality of the discrepancy in regards to ways out of sexual sins
Some can marry some cannot
Not because they dont want to
But because they cannot!
What a heavy load is that to carry?
Curtis
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I think we first have to discover what exactly is the will of God that we are suppose to do. After we find out what that is we will see what these people were doing that Jesus called "iniquity".
What is my "work" as a Christian am I suppose to be doing that gives eternal life? Jesus tells us........
John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Our "work" is to believe in whom God has sent which is Jesus Christ, the Word of God. This is why we are called "believers"
Doing anything else would be doing what we are not suppose to do!!! My "actions" in this life are based solely on what I believe. If I believe right, my actions will match what I believe, and be right. If my believing is wrong, than all of my actions will also be wrong!! My only Work is to have "faith" in the Word of God. What about the works of faith? Since we co workers together with God in this life, what part or "work" does God perform in this partnership? God's "work" is do what man is having faith in him (the Word) to do. In other words God alone does the "works of faith" not man.
Mans "work" is to "believe". God's "work" is to do what man is believing his Word (God, since God is the Word) to do. This is exactly how Jesus, and his father worked together on this earth. Jesus said, "I can of my self do nothing!!!!!" (John 5:30) Jesus said "it was his Father dwelling within him that was doing the works" (John 14:10)
If Jesus could not anything on his own, what makes us think we can? The only thing man can do on his own is "iniquity" When we do it it is called iniquity, when God does it it is called "righteousness"
What were these people doing that caused Jesus to say "I never knew you"?
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(What is our work? To belive)
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have WE not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(Who was doing these works of faith? They were!!! Who is suppose to? God. They said, "have WE not.........prophesied, have WE not cast out devils, have WE not done many wonderful things)
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Without having a intimate relationship with the Lord God, the only thing we will ever do is our own thing, which only looks holy and pure in the eyes of men, but is only "iniquity" to God.
Man can NEVER take the place of God in this partnership between man and God. Man believes, God Works according to mans faith in him!!!
What is my "work" as a Christian am I suppose to be doing that gives eternal life? Jesus tells us........
John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Our "work" is to believe in whom God has sent which is Jesus Christ, the Word of God. This is why we are called "believers"
Doing anything else would be doing what we are not suppose to do!!! My "actions" in this life are based solely on what I believe. If I believe right, my actions will match what I believe, and be right. If my believing is wrong, than all of my actions will also be wrong!! My only Work is to have "faith" in the Word of God. What about the works of faith? Since we co workers together with God in this life, what part or "work" does God perform in this partnership? God's "work" is do what man is having faith in him (the Word) to do. In other words God alone does the "works of faith" not man.
Mans "work" is to "believe". God's "work" is to do what man is believing his Word (God, since God is the Word) to do. This is exactly how Jesus, and his father worked together on this earth. Jesus said, "I can of my self do nothing!!!!!" (John 5:30) Jesus said "it was his Father dwelling within him that was doing the works" (John 14:10)
If Jesus could not anything on his own, what makes us think we can? The only thing man can do on his own is "iniquity" When we do it it is called iniquity, when God does it it is called "righteousness"
What were these people doing that caused Jesus to say "I never knew you"?
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(What is our work? To belive)
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have WE not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(Who was doing these works of faith? They were!!! Who is suppose to? God. They said, "have WE not.........prophesied, have WE not cast out devils, have WE not done many wonderful things)
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Without having a intimate relationship with the Lord God, the only thing we will ever do is our own thing, which only looks holy and pure in the eyes of men, but is only "iniquity" to God.
Man can NEVER take the place of God in this partnership between man and God. Man believes, God Works according to mans faith in him!!!
I have no doubt whatsoever that NO member of the TRUE church would ever have need of changing LAWS
To do with the sabbath just so they could meet up on the first day of the week.
The very idea Is Ludicrous,
To change Gods laws would require changing God's word
Which is a sin of the man of sin.
God is able to do more than we can ask or imagine
So how does that rely on our conscious faith?
Curtis
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Sin does not become sin when we do it, it becomes sin when we think it !!! The actions part is only the "manifestation" of already abiding sin within us.
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
The "finishing" part of sin is when we do it, but that is not when sin starts, it starts when we think it!!!
Jesus gives us an example of this.......
Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Lusting for something evil is when sin conceives in the heart and become sin. the finishing comes later in actions after sin is in the heart.
A straight Christian is one who "struggles" against sin. A gay person openly welcomes sin into their heart, without ever trying to stop, even though they know it is wrong.
Curtis
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This hows how "bankrupt" the human mind is. The mind of Christ that dwells within man has no problems in knowing God in his fullness. The carnal un renewed mind is at a lost to know any spiritual things, which is why we are told,
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
