Do you deny the power of God?

[jari]

Romans 7:19-25
19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

 

[Whitestone]

i am equally confused as i was when i first looked into this thread..

by which power you overcome sin? by your own or by Holy spirit?

(Rom 8:1)
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


(Rom 8:4)
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

(Rom 8:5)
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

(Rom 8:6)
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

(Rom 8:7)
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

(Rom 8:8)
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

(Rom 8:9)
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

(Rom 8:10)
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

(Rom 8:11)
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

(Rom 8:12)
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

(Rom 8:13)
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

(Rom 8:14)
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

 

[Whitestone]

"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you..." Acts 1:8

Amen. This is the only Power by which we can enjoy sinless righteousness all the days of our lives.

Sin in our life is the evidence we have not received the Holy Spirit. After all, sin is not "holy". If we sin, we are not being "holy". There should be no soft soaping this message.

The question shouldn't be if someone else has sin in their life. The question should be,

(Mar 14:19)
And they began to be sorrowful, and to say unto him one by one, Is it I? and another said, Is it I?

 

[watchman F]

Amen, it is possible to overcome sin, the question I have is: Is it possible to overcome sin all of the time?

Absolutely, without a doubt...so says God.

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

 

[jiggyfly]

"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you..." Acts 1:8

To do what? The answer is in the missing part of verse 8.

8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. And you will be my witnesses, telling people about me everywhere—in Jerusalem, throughout Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
Acts 1:8 (NLT)

 

[Whitestone]

As we still are in our sinful body we will fight against flesh every single day...the good thing is sind doesnt rule our life anymore...we are free...but to commit sin is a possibility always...until the day he comes...

This is indeed a powerful statement. It is what Christ did every moment of his fleshly life in his "sinful" body. And He OVERCAME the sinful flesh by not succumbing to temptation by which He "conquered sin and death".

I can't do that. Only Christ can do that. And HE can ONLY do that IN ME if I receive Christ in my flesh, now, while it is called To Day. This is the True meaning of the "coming of the Lord"! That is why it is imperative that our "doctrine" causes us to Call Jesus to COME into us by His Holy Spirit, to overcome sin in our flesh exactly as He overcame sin in His flesh.

Cool eh?

 

[jari]

Sin in our life is the evidence we have not received the Holy Spirit. After all, sin is not "holy". If we sin, we are not being "holy". There should be no soft soaping this message.

does Bible say that somewhere?

 

[Whitestone]

does Bible say that somewhere?

Anywhere it talks about sin, yes.

I and some folks here have provided certain scriptures already, but here is another one if you missed those;

(1Jn 3:6)
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

 

[Whitestone]

To do what? The answer is in the missing part of verse 8.

8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. And you will be my witnesses, telling people about me everywhere—in Jerusalem, throughout Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
Acts 1:8 (NLT)

This is one thing we can say about the Power of the Holy Spirit. Yes, preaching the Gospel in truth is certainly impossible without the Holy Spirit.

The Power of the Holy Spirit must do many things within us in transforming us into Sons of God by which we THEN can preach the Gospel.

But understand this... The single most important work of the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ in us is DELIVERING US FROM EVIL.
The Lord's prayer is the most important prayer which Jesus gives us, and here is what He says about this Power;

(Mat 6:13)
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

The single most important thing a man must do is make sure He understands the seriousness of sin. Read about it. Pray about it. If any one has sin in their life, they have a very deep problem that needs to be addressed.

Peace in Christ


(Jud 1:23)
And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

 

[jari]

Anywhere it talks about sin, yes.

I and some folks here have provided certain scriptures already, but here is another one if you missed those;

(1Jn 3:6)
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

so if your saved you never sin?
and if you commit a sin you we're never saved?

 

[Whitestone]

so if your saved you never sin?
and if you commit a sin you we're never saved?

Whether they were never saved or whether they were saved and then fell away isn't for me to speculate about. But what I do know, if I meet a person who confesses Jesus Christ as their Lord, yet they still sin, they have a MAJOR problem to deal with as John says. They are a tare in the wheat is another way of saying it. They "deny the power thereof" is another way of saying. They are "clouds without water" is another of saying it.
All the examples and stories we are given of these kind of people give us a very clear picture of the judgement they are heaping upon themselves due to choosing to continue in sin instead of being a servant of righteousness.
Thank you for asking me these questions Jari. There are many people reading these threads. Hopefully some will fall to their knees in repentance and ask Jesus to forgive their sins and to be baptized by water and the Holy Spirit Fire and cleanse them and purify them and COME INTO THEM. Those who honestly do so, Christ will COME into them by His Holy Spirit with Power and walk Righteous in them AS HE PROMISED!
This is the GOOD NEWS of the Gospel of Salvation.
There is NO OTHER GOSPEL than this.

Peace in Christ

 

[jari]

my question originally was how do you interpret that verse but I think you made no attemb to fully interpret it, at least. still I am quite confused of the way you see this, did you mean once you are truly saved you wont sin? and serve rightneusness (as the way you put it)?

to me Gospel is Good news of salvation and God really is gracious to give us sinners the Holy spirit even we wouldn't deserve it but that's what grace means.. God justifies us without earning it. (Rom 3:23, Rom 4:5, eph 2:8-9)
and this is the Hope we have through Jesus shed blood at the cross for remission of our sins. That's by grace of God and not because of our efforts to be Holy. Acts 2:38

 

[amadeus2]

Originally Posted by amadeus2
"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you..." Acts 1:8

To do what? The answer is in the missing part of verse 8.

8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. And you will be my witnesses, telling people about me everywhere—in Jerusalem, throughout Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
Acts 1:8 (NLT)

I don't really care for your translation because it adds the word "telling" which puts too much emphasis on a verbal testimony. As important as it is to witness to individuals when the door is open, the most important witness any person can is by having every moment of his life depict the Way Jesus would live in his place.

I was won to God not by a single witness in a few minutes of time, but by the lives of a young couple who had turned themselves over to God in their every word and action.

 

[Whitestone]

my question originally was how do you interpret that verse but I think you made no attemb to fully interpret it, at least. still I am quite confused of the way you see this, did you mean once you are truly saved you wont sin? and serve rightneusness (as the way you put it)?

to me Gospel is Good news of salvation and God really is gracious to give us sinners the Holy spirit even we wouldn't deserve it but that's what grace means.. God justifies us without earning it. (Rom 3:23, Rom 4:5, eph 2:8-9)
and this is the Hope we have through Jesus shed blood at the cross for remission of our sins. That's by grace of God and not because of our efforts to be Holy. Acts 2:38

I don't give "interpretations" of the Bible Jari. You shouldn't believe me if I did. Nor should you believe anyone's interpretation. The Word of God is not for private interpretation. The Lord Himself opens our eyes and reveals the meaning of His Spirit. I can't do that. If we can't see what is right there, then we ask Jesus to reveal it. He wrote it. If we invite Jesus into our Temple bodies, that means He is in us as our eyes read, so He sees what He wrote through our eyes as we read it. Only this way can we understand and be enlightened.

Jesus doesn't enter into "sinners". You got some bad doctrine there from somebody. You won't ever find THAT in the Word of God. We must sanctify ourselves, set our selves apart in Holiness to Him. That is what repentance and baptism do. THEN, He FILLS US WITH HIS HOLY SELF Sanctifying Himself IN US
Then, HE walks Righteous in us
Our life is sinless that way.

It is pointless to keep mentioning that we can't do this by our own efforts when THAT IS ALWAYS THE FACT AND NO ONE HAS BEEN SAYING OTHERWISE. All the scriptures provided over and over here describe in detail that it is CHRIST IN US WHO IS PERFECT! All we do is LET HIM WALK OUR FEET IN THE WAY. And no one has an excuse not to let Him Walk your life in perfect righteousness.
Sin is conscious rebellion against all of this.

If I sinned right now, I would have to force Christ out of this Holy Temple Body to do it.
If I sinned right now, I would only be proving I do not contain His Holy Spirit in me.
None of this is a private interpretation. None of this is difficult to understand.
As I shared with you before, the only reason anyone attempts to substitute their own private doctrine that states they are unable to refrain from sin, is because they choose not to be filled with the Holy Spirit of Christ and be led by Him!
And the "proof is in the pudding" as they say. You can tell if you are filled with the Holy Spirit of Christ by whether or not you still sin! This is the single most important and the EASIEST FIRST AND FOREMOST MESSAGE OF THE GOSPEL! Nothing else matters but this.
Repent and be baptized and you will recieve the POWER of the Holy Spirit to be a Son of God in perfect Righteousness, exactly as Jesus and His disciples teach you. Then you will know all these things and have everlasting life!
This is not just Good News, it is the BEST NEWS

Peace in Christ

 

[jari]

I don't give "interpretations" of the Bible Jari. You shouldn't believe me if I did. Nor should you believe anyone's interpretation. The Word of God is not for private interpretation. The Lord Himself opens our eyes and reveals the meaning of His Spirit.

I didn't say anything about private interpretation. Of course the only correct interpretation comes through the Holy spirit.

Jesus doesn't enter into "sinners". You got some bad doctrine there from somebody.

If that would be true no one could ever be saved. Rom 3:23

this was also not the case with Peter's audience for example.

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

It is pointless to keep mentioning that we can't do this by our own efforts when

repentace is decision by us but it does not earn God's favor, its only for if you believe you come to receive God's grace out of the decision of your free will. But of course God draws us to Him yet we can decline, we wouldn't otherwise have really free will now would we?
repentance is therefore effort ... which is why it's important to remember that we cannot earn God's gift of salvation by repentance but God accepts us as we are.."it is the gift of God: " - eph 2:8, Rom 5:15 and.. Rom 9:16, Rom 9:18

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

If I sinned right now, I would have to force Christ out of this Holy Temple Body to do it.
If I sinned right now, I would only be proving I do not contain His Holy Spirit in me.

that's not what the scripture says to us believers in Christ Jesus...

1Jn 1:7-10 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[Whitestone]

I didn't say anything about private interpretation. Of course the only correct interpretation comes through the Holy spirit.




If that would be true no one could ever be saved. Rom 3:23

this was also not the case with Peter's audience for example.

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.




repentace is decision by us but it does not earn God's favor, its only for if you believe you come to receive God's grace out of the decision of your free will. But of course God draws us to Him yet we can decline, we wouldn't otherwise have really free will now would we?
repentance is therefore effort ... which is why it's important to remember that we cannot earn God's gift of salvation by repentance but God accepts us as we are.."it is the gift of God: " - eph 2:8, Rom 5:15 and.. Rom 9:16, Rom 9:18

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.





that's not what the scripture says to us believers in Christ Jesus...

1Jn 1:7-10 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I don't know why you attempt to dig up a "counter point" against the Word of God, by making a statement contradicted the Word of God I present, then trying to use a wrested verse to back your statement.
You just don't get it.
Again, you say we don't "earn something"... who said anything about "earning" anything? Who are you trying to start an argument with? I'm not interested.
Yes you did say you were "waiting for my interpretation", next, you deny it. These are tactics of the rebellious. I'm not interested in.
You ignore scriptures presented, then present unrelated scriptures to try to prove something I'm not talking about. I'm not interested.

Rather than ask me if I sin, ask yourself if you sin. I don't answer to you. But you TELL ME YOU DO SIN. By witness of your own mouth, you are unsaved. If you still sin in your life, it is simple evidence that you are of the devil, not of the Holy Spirit. You have no power. I'm not interested to know anything about what you think you know until you repent and are baptized and receive the Holy Spirit and GO AND SIN NO MORE. THEN we will talk. Your gospel is perverted if you don't know the power of Christ overcoming sin and death within us. It is obvious to all here Jari.
To try to speak of Peter's speech and relate that in contradiction to the very simple presentation before you is rebellion, ignorance and argumentative and is plain for all to see. You obviously are attempting to self justify yourself in sin. I'm not interested.
You can bet that the Holy Spirit didn't stay long around those who turned back to sin. YOU CAN BET ON THAT.
It is obvious by trying the spirits who does or doesn't contain the Righteous Holy Spirit of Christ. I have befriended those here who do. I would like to befriend you someday. I hope you turn to Christ and repent of your sins.
Yes, it is a process. We repent and confess our sins. Yes I'd be a liar if I hadn't done that. How would a person know if I'm a liar? BY WHETHER OR NOT I STILL SIN. AND THAT IS THE EVIDENCE BY WHETHER THE HOLY SPIRIT OF CHRIST DWELLS IN ME.

I shall not respond to any further posts from you until such time as you repent of the sins you admit you still choose to continue within.

Peace

(Rom 14:17)
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.


(Joh 8:11)
She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.


(Jud 1:15)
To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


(Jud 1:18)
How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

(Jud 1:19)
These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

(Jud 1:20)
But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

(Mat 7:15)
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

(Mat 7:16)
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

(Mat 7:17)
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

(Mat 7:18)
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

(Mat 7:19)
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

(Mat 7:20)
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

(1Co 10:13)
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

 

[jari]

I don't know why you attempt to dig up a "counter point" against the Word of God, by making a statement contradicted the Word of God I present, then trying to use a wrested verse to back your statement.
You just don't get it.

to show you are in error... and your theology contradicts the bible due to your misunderstanding of the scriptures.

Again, you say we don't "earn something"... who said anything about "earning" anything? Who are you trying to start an argument with? I'm not interested.

I explained it already. but I guess your not fully reading my responses. so you say now your not interested? fine then I wont make any more posts but if you reply something to this thread you should be interested in what others say its not your pulpit for preaching.....

Yes you did say you were "waiting for my interpretation", next, you deny it. These are tactics of the rebellious. I'm not interested in.

I said your interpreation because your beliefs aren't nessarily from God.

if there's something I'm going to ask from you its called your interpreation for now. examining the truth tells if it's correct interpreatation.

You ignore scriptures presented, then present unrelated scriptures to try to prove something I'm not talking about. I'm not interested.

there was not a single scripture posted in your post.

God bless you Whitestone

 

[Whitestone]

Folks, beware of and know the "trait" of the devil and the children of the devil;

The devil and his children neuter God's word by saying that you will not die even though you sin. Here is the first example of their father;

(Gen 3:4)
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

(Gen 3:5)
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

This is a lie. The fact is, if you sin, you die.


(Eze 18:20)
The soul that sinneth, it shall die...

(Joh 8:44)
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Is it clear? Those who still sin, after ALL that Jesus has done in cleansing us from our sin, DIES.

This should be a sobering reality to drop a person to their knees in repentance.


(1Jn 3:9)
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

(1Jn 3:10)
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The children of God who are empowered with the Holy Spirit in them overcoming temptation, are the only one's who Live.

(1Jn 5:18)
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

I know that many are offended with this message. I do not apologize for it one whit. The Word of God is a two edged sword. It is received in Love and repentance by those who are the children of Jesus. It is put down and argued against by the children of the devil. It is how we know who we are. It is also how we know and can try the spirits who argue against it.
(Luk 7:23)
And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
Word to the wise. PpPP

 

[jari]

does it make the truth to you to take few words out of bible and call it the truth? the whole Bible is the truth. And John said it's not impossible for us to still sin as well did Paul but you choose to ignore these truths making your self a liar but not only that but according to John your making him a liar and the word of God is not in you.

John:
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Paul:
I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Paul admitted he still sins in flesh but that doesn't stop him from serving God.

If you choose to ignore this truth that's your choice.

If you are saying God doesn't forgive sin you are indeed a liar. the only reason Jesus died at the cross was that we would be forgiven.




1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


1Jn 2:12 *I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.


Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:


Luk 7:47-50 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. (48) And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. (49) And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? (50) And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.


Isa 53:10-11 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. (11) He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.


Rom 4:6-8 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, (7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. (8) Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


Rom 3:25-26 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; (26) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.



Rom 5:9 *Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.


Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:





But if you don't believe in grace and God's forgiveness which grace basically is that's your choise but it's all biblical and just your decision to accept that or reject God's grace. That's really your decision. If your continuing with your hand picked verses or believe the whole truth of the bible. but as long as your going only with your favorite bits of the bible and omit Mercy and grace we aren't really even talking about the same book.

I don't think your anymore than those pharisees of the time who persecuated Jesus over healing the sick at sabbath and forgiving sinners.

 

[jari]

The problem with trying to make your self sinless aka justified by the law is that it's imposibility:

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


But God's grace grants justification freely without law:

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:



Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.



anyone who tries to make them self holy through repentance is forming his own self - rightneusness that's not of God:

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.


Salvation really is of grace according to bible and sooner you ackowledge the scriptures stating this the better because it's waste of time and space to thumb your man theories of self-rightneusness via law when bible clearly says the opposite. so stop lying.

Rom 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


a promise of God , thou shall be saved. How can one argua against this truth? really this is hard for me to understand..

another one:

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


another God's promise. do you make God's promise void by insisting on self-rightneuss and hypocrazy over your sinful being?

I really don't know how God's promise in john 3:16 could be made void but perhaps you enlighten me

Yet another one:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


we are already saved according to eph 2:8 by grace. How is that you say it isn't of grace but instead of repentance?

that's surprising...

I really am wondering how all the word about God's grace and free gift of salvation can be thrown out of the window by some one who thinks salvation is archievable only by repentance.

that's not biblical at all...