Do you deny the power of God?

[David777]

Back to the topic that started this thread with the some additional
passages from 2 Timothy 3.

2 Timothy 3

5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power;
Avoid such men as these.

7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are
able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is
in Christ Jesus.

It would appear that the people that Paul was warning Timothy about were those
who did not have the knowledge of the truth (verse 7). They were not Christian
because they did not have the truth. The visible evidence by which they are identified
are the works of the flesh (verses 1-6). Though they did have an outward appearance
of Godliness they denied the inherent power of the Gospel to save and sanctify.

Verse 15 proves this point, "...the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is
in Christ Jesus".

Since these people denied the power of the Holy Spirit to save and to regenerate. They
would equally deny the gifts of the Holy Spirit vigorously.

 

[jari]

Back to the topic that started this thread with the some additional
passages from 2 Timothy 3.

2 Timothy 3

5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power;
Avoid such men as these.

7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are
able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is
in Christ Jesus.

It would appear that the people that Paul was warning Timothy about were those
who did not have the knowledge of the truth (verse 7). They were not Christian
because they did not have the truth. The visible evidence by which they are identified
are the works of the flesh (verses 1-6). Though they did have an outward appearance
of Godliness they denied the inherent power of the Gospel to save and sanctify.

Verse 15 proves this point, "...the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is
in Christ Jesus".

Since these people denied the power of the Holy Spirit to save and to regenerate. They
would equally deny the gifts of the Holy Spirit vigorously.

I agree David they didnt deny just one part of God given truth and Spirit but all that is Holy..

 

[jari]

12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.



the truth as in opposite to no truth is what I believe this is about.

 

[jari]

these verses are in essence talking about unbelievers and believers.

Compare:

[SUB]2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.




Eze 36:25-28 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. (26)

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

(27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
[/SUB]


It's God who gives the change in heart..... the more closer we draw to Him.

 

[watchman F]

Folks, beware of and know the "trait" of the devil and the children of the devil;

The devil and his children neuter God's word by saying that you will not die even though you sin. Here is the first example of their father;

(Gen 3:4)
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

(Gen 3:5)
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

This is a lie. The fact is, if you sin, you die.


(Eze 18:20)
The soul that sinneth, it shall die...

(Joh 8:44)
Ye are of yourfather the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Is it clear? Those who still sin, after ALL that Jesus has done in cleansing us from our sin, DIES.

This should be a sobering reality to drop a person to their knees in repentance.


(1Jn 3:9)
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

(1Jn 3:10)
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The children of God who are empowered with the Holy Spirit in them overcoming temptation, are the only one's who Live.

(1Jn 5:18)
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

I know that many are offended with this message. I do not apologize for it one whit. The Word of God is a two edged sword. It is received in Love and repentance by those who are the children of Jesus. It is put down and argued against by the children of the devil. It is how we know who we are. It is also how we know and can try the spirits who argue against it.
(Luk 7:23)
And blessed ishe,whosoever shall not be offended in me.
Word to the wise. PpPP

Excellent post Whitestone.

Anyone that claims you can be saved from Hell without first being saved from sin is lying to you.

 

[jari]

That's why Jesus died for peoples sins that they would be forgiven. that's why He's called the savior.

You don't have savior then? are you your own savior?

 

[Whitestone]

Excellent post Whitestone.

Anyone that claims you can be saved from Hell without first being saved from sin is lying to you.

Amen Watchman.

Thank you Jesus for saving us from our past sins and from sinning further by your Righteousness in us!

 

[jari]

victory over sin is in finished work of christ. for the strength of sin is the law. but grace gives us freedom from guilt, grants us mercy, gives us blessing as well as victory over sin. And as child of God we have the power of the Holy spirit. but all this must be accepted by faith.


1Co 15:55-57 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

(56)

The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

(57) But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[watchman F]

That's why Jesus died for peoples sins that they would be forgiven. that's why He's called the savior.

You don't have savior then? are you your own savior?

No jari that would a forgiver. Jesus lived, died and rose again to ''SAVE''/ deliver us from our sin, so that we would not only be forgiven from past sins, but empowered to live in victory over future sins

 

[DutchChristian]

Romans 6:
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

be that surrendered vessel abide in Him and ye will walk in it, surrender all to Him daily!

 

[DutchChristian]

John 15:
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

John 8:
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

 

[Whitestone]

No jari that would a forgiver. Jesus lived, died and rose again to ''SAVE''/ deliver us from our sin, so that we would not only be forgiven from past sins, but empowered to live in victory over future sins

Amen Watchman. We are "empowered" to be conquerors over sin by Christ in us. We are no longer "impotent" aganist sin as those who were under the law of Moses, who did not have the Holy Spirit of Christ empowering them. Things are quite different now in this realm of "Grace" thank you Jesus! For we can't do it, only you IN US CAN! Come quickly into each and every one of us, even so Come quickly Lord!

 

[Itz Me]

2nd Timothy 3
You see Jesus did not come to save us from Hell, He came to save us from sin.

Hi! Whitestone
Maybe your comments could be more suitably stated as "save us from the POWER of sin".


The bible uses the word sin in four different meanings.
It says that sin came into the world through one man. Here the word sin indicates the unclean and evil spirits and their master: Satan. He took the government of the world away from man. He became the ruler of this world and through (the powers of) sin he rules as a king. This is the meaning in which the following texts have to be taken: "You were once slaves of sin"; "He who has died is free from sin" (as the wife is free from her husband after his death); "Set free from sin"; "Sin deceived me"; "So then it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells in me".
However, just as child is named after his father, so the fruit of the evil one is also called sin. "I am writing this to you that you may not (commit) sin"; "He who commits sin is of the devil".
The verb 'to sin' has the meaning of committing a sinful act. "Go and do not sin again". "Who sinned, this man or his parents?". "Be angry but do not sin". Thus there is both the conception and also the birth of sin.
In between these two stages, sin is in the inner man as similar to an embryonic state. This is the stage of the sinful thoughts, developing in the spiritual and unseen world.
Desire has been impregnated, it has conceived, but as yet, sin has not been brought forth as an act.
An example of this is hate, of which the Lord said, that before God, it is regarded as murder. So is lust: "Everyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart".
The fourth meaning of the word sin is: that which after an act of sin stays behind in the soul, the guilt or debt of sin. This the bible calls the treasure of wrath.
Scripture also mentions another, positive treasure in heaven: that which we store up by means of good works.
The following verses have the word sin in the meaning of debt or guilt: "The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world". "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her". "In whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins".
Jesus took sin away on the cross at Calvary. There God made His Son to be sin, that is, the Father put on Him the sins of the world that in Him we might be "the righteousness of God".
This righteousness is reckoned to us. "He is the expiation for our sins (guilt), and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world", (1John 2:2) . Notwithstanding this act of deliverance on God's part for the whole of humanity the prophet says: "If favor is shown to the wicked, he does not learn righteousness (he goes on committing sin); in the land of uprightness he deals perversely and does not see the majesty of the Lord", (Isaiah 26:10).


In natural life it takes intercourse to conceive fruit. The same applies to the spiritual or unseen world. The results show in the works which are called after the conceivers: fruits of the Spirit or works of darkness. Thus, sin is a fruit in the spiritual world, brought about as a result of fellowship between a human spirit and an evil one. In the visible world sin manifests itself by means of the flesh; as work of the flesh.


Satan's tactic is to hide. First he tempts man to commit sin, and then he turns into an accuser. He likes it best when his existence is doubted, and when his work not recognized, or at least not taken into account. In this way he has succeeded in infiltrating the Christian mind with the idea that the source of evil is in man himself. The believer feels that evil cannot possibly be separate from himself. Accepting the fact that 'this is how he happens to be' he expects to stay that way for as long as he lives.


Modern day theology does not count with the existence of the devil and his angels. It has done away with the so-called medieval ways of thinking. But the existence of demons is not a figment of a hysterical mind, it is a piece of knowledge which we owe to divine revelation. Jesus talked about unclean spirits and about Beelzebub, the ruler of the devils. He cast the demons out, delivering the people from sin, sickness and bondage. He also told His followers to do likewise. This was an essential part of His commission to His disciples.
Paul tells us that the battle is fought in the unseen world, where we have to struggle against the powers of darkness.
Unfortunately, many sincere Christians today are largely blind concerning the Kingdom of Heaven. For many, Paul's teaching about the heavenly places is nothing but a play on words. They insist that man himself is the author and perpetrator of sin.

 

[Whitestone]

Hi! Whitestone
Maybe your comments could be more suitably stated as "save us from the POWER of sin".


The bible uses the word sin in four different meanings.
It says that sin came into the world through one man. Here the word sin indicates the unclean and evil spirits and their master: Satan. He took the government of the world away from man. He became the ruler of this world and through (the powers of) sin he rules as a king. This is the meaning in which the following texts have to be taken: "You were once slaves of sin"; "He who has died is free from sin" (as the wife is free from her husband after his death); "Set free from sin"; "Sin deceived me"; "So then it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells in me".
However, just as child is named after his father, so the fruit of the evil one is also called sin. "I am writing this to you that you may not (commit) sin"; "He who commits sin is of the devil".
The verb 'to sin' has the meaning of committing a sinful act. "Go and do not sin again". "Who sinned, this man or his parents?". "Be angry but do not sin". Thus there is both the conception and also the birth of sin.
In between these two stages, sin is in the inner man as similar to an embryonic state. This is the stage of the sinful thoughts, developing in the spiritual and unseen world.
Desire has been impregnated, it has conceived, but as yet, sin has not been brought forth as an act.
An example of this is hate, of which the Lord said, that before God, it is regarded as murder. So is lust: "Everyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart".
The fourth meaning of the word sin is: that which after an act of sin stays behind in the soul, the guilt or debt of sin. This the bible calls the treasure of wrath.
Scripture also mentions another, positive treasure in heaven: that which we store up by means of good works.
The following verses have the word sin in the meaning of debt or guilt: "The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world". "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her". "In whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins".
Jesus took sin away on the cross at Calvary. There God made His Son to be sin, that is, the Father put on Him the sins of the world that in Him we might be "the righteousness of God".
This righteousness is reckoned to us. "He is the expiation for our sins (guilt), and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world", (1John 2:2) . Notwithstanding this act of deliverance on God's part for the whole of humanity the prophet says: "If favor is shown to the wicked, he does not learn righteousness (he goes on committing sin); in the land of uprightness he deals perversely and does not see the majesty of the Lord", (Isaiah 26:10).


In natural life it takes intercourse to conceive fruit. The same applies to the spiritual or unseen world. The results show in the works which are called after the conceivers: fruits of the Spirit or works of darkness. Thus, sin is a fruit in the spiritual world, brought about as a result of fellowship between a human spirit and an evil one. In the visible world sin manifests itself by means of the flesh; as work of the flesh.


Satan's tactic is to hide. First he tempts man to commit sin, and then he turns into an accuser. He likes it best when his existence is doubted, and when his work not recognized, or at least not taken into account. In this way he has succeeded in infiltrating the Christian mind with the idea that the source of evil is in man himself. The believer feels that evil cannot possibly be separate from himself. Accepting the fact that 'this is how he happens to be' he expects to stay that way for as long as he lives.


Modern day theology does not count with the existence of the devil and his angels. It has done away with the so-called medieval ways of thinking. But the existence of demons is not a figment of a hysterical mind, it is a piece of knowledge which we owe to divine revelation. Jesus talked about unclean spirits and about Beelzebub, the ruler of the devils. He cast the demons out, delivering the people from sin, sickness and bondage. He also told His followers to do likewise. This was an essential part of His commission to His disciples.
Paul tells us that the battle is fought in the unseen world, where we have to struggle against the powers of darkness.
Unfortunately, many sincere Christians today are largely blind concerning the Kingdom of Heaven. For many, Paul's teaching about the heavenly places is nothing but a play on words. They insist that man himself is the author and perpetrator of sin.

Sorry Itz me,
I have no agreement with any of your ideas.
Man is the originator of sin.
All temptation comes as a result of being tempted by our own lusts and enticed.
Adam is the originator of sin.
We all contain the seed of our natural father Adam, and so did Jesus.
Jesus overcame sin because He didn't succumb to the temptation.
Everything in Scriptures dealing with sin, is often personified as the devil or evil spirits.
A man who sins and entices others to sin is an evil spirit. A devil. Satan.
This is all plain and clear and needs no 'compartmentalizing' as though it means four different things. It isn't that difficult to understand lol.
It is very clear and plain what sin is in the Bible.
I was a sinner. I thought up evil things. I was tempted to do evil things. I DID evil things and sinned always. NO one else "combined" themself with me to make this happen. Just like with Adam, temptations come as a result of disobeying the perfect clear word of God, and twisting it to make it sound like WE AREN'T the source of sin. That is heresy.
By ONE MAN sin entered into the world. All sin because we are his descendents.
A very simple first principle.
No passing the buck here with me. I am responsible and deserved death because of sin. So I died. I identify with the death of Christ, dying to self. In the waters of baptism I've died and satisfied that law of sin and death. Now the second death has no power over me. Now the Law that prevails over me is Love, Life and Righteousness.
No supernatural evil superstitious "beings" neccessary. Sure that superstitious stuff is in the Bible because of the severe departure of the jews from KNOWLEDGE. "my people perish for lack of knowledge" thus saith the Lord.
Jesus came to a nation of silly superstitious beliefs. Beliefs in demons and devils and such. Yes you read about it in the New Testament, but NEVER do you read of such things in the O.T. Why? Because they hadn't yet departed to the ridiculous extremes of the pagan nations around them who DID believe that nonsense. You need to google this topic and read up on it.
The belief and teachings and "doctrines of devils" that existed in N.T. times was as a result of APOSTACY. It is a great departure from TRUTH as a result of ignorance and superstitious intermingling with soothsayers, necromancers, wizards, diviners etc, the false ideas of the barbarians. But the jews swallowed all that stuff. What has resulted is people thinking they are filled with "disembodied demons" like Legion thought. What to do with folk like that? The same thing I do. That Jesus does. Cast them out! If the afflicted believe it, then we heal them according to their faith. But to start believing what the necromancers taught is forbidden and is nonsense and can only wreck your comprehension of what SIN IS. And it is nothing like what you've attempted to describe.
It is simple to know that sin is "missing the mark". Our sin nature is as a result of inheriting that tendency.
But Jesus, from His Father, inherited the ability to CHOOSE Righteousness, unlike any of the rest of us. He overcame His natural temptations we all have to sin, and in that process, "DESTROYED THE DEVIL" within Him. He couldn't have done that if it wasn't His fleshly self's natural tendencies obviously.
Google it, study it out. Recognize who the "devil" really is. Then look in the mirror and recognize him. There is no other "devil" than the temptations and acts of sin which we ourselves 100% originate from within our lusts of the flesh, lust of the eyes and pride of life.

(Gen 6:5)
And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

(Heb 2:14)
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

In Himself, Jesus destroyed the devil. Clear as a bell. So now, in me, just as in Himself, He is destroying the devil. My sin nature. My sin desires. He is destroying the devil in me.
It is nonsense to think it is some Heavenly fallen angelic being. They can't sin and it is blasphemy to suggest they do or ever did. It is ALWAYS Adam or his descendents who are the "devil" aka "sin in the flesh. And in me and you, Jesus is destroying this devil, just as He destroyed him in His own flesh.

(Jas 1:14)
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.


(Rom 5:12)
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

(Rom 6:6)
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.


(Jas 1:15)
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

(Jas 1:16)
Do not err, my beloved brethren.

 

[David777]

Hello Whitestone.

I read the paragraph below in your post #80.

"In Himself, Jesus destroyed the devil. Clear as a bell. So now, in me, just as in Himself,
He is destroying the devil. My sin nature. My sin desires. He is destroying the devil in me.
It is nonsense to think it is some Heavenly fallen angelic being. They can't sin and it is
blasphemy to suggest they do or ever did. It is ALWAYS Adam or his descendents who
are the "devil" aka "sin in the flesh. And in me and you, Jesus is destroying this devil,
just as He destroyed him in His own flesh."

You said "It is nonsense to think it is some Heavenly fallen angelic being.".

This erroneous theology does need correction.

(Jude 1:9) But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about
the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said,
"The Lord rebuke you!"

The devil is a fallen spiritual entity. Note that the archangel Michael
was arguing with the devil. Angelic beings in conversation.

 

[Whitestone]

Hello Whitestone.

I read the paragraph below in your post #80.

"In Himself, Jesus destroyed the devil. Clear as a bell. So now, in me, just as in Himself,
He is destroying the devil. My sin nature. My sin desires. He is destroying the devil in me.
It is nonsense to think it is some Heavenly fallen angelic being. They can't sin and it is
blasphemy to suggest they do or ever did. It is ALWAYS Adam or his descendents who
are the "devil" aka "sin in the flesh. And in me and you, Jesus is destroying this devil,
just as He destroyed him in His own flesh."

You said "It is nonsense to think it is some Heavenly fallen angelic being.".

This erroneous theology does need correction.

(Jude 1:9) But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about
the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said,
"The Lord rebuke you!"

The devil is a fallen spiritual entity. Note that the archangel Michael
was arguing with the devil. Angelic beings in conversation.

Dear David,
Jude is dealing with Old Testament occurrences.
We don't all the sudden have something bizarre in verse 9 that isn't what everything else in Jude is referring to! THAT is bad hermeneutics. That is called a "ISOGESIS". You ADD your own idea to what the Bible says.
YOU say "Angelic beings". The BIBLE DOES NOT.

What it DOES describe, exactly as the rest of the book of Jude describes, is the MEN of the Old Testament who FELL AWAY.

Read Numbers 16 and you will see that the entire chapter is what Jude verse 9 is speaking of.

Korah Dathan and Abiram rebelled (aka satan/devil) against Moses and the entire congregation of Israel (Body of Moses/Michael ="one as God" EXODUS 4:16)

If you understand that Christians are the "Body of Christ" this will now make sense to you.
We all need to know the language that God uses. We can't substitute our own ideas.

The book of Jude is dealing with ungodly men who creep into the Body of Gods people with evil intent, and the entire book deals with what happened to them. He speaks of Sodom and Gomorrah who were destroyed.
He speaks of the non believers in Egypt who were destroyed.
And quite specifically in detail, he speaks of the rebellion of the princes of Israel against God's spokesman Moses and the entire body of Israelites he was leading through the wilderness.
The details of Numbers 16 are also touched upon in verse 6 verse 8 verse 10 and verse 11. ALL the verses are speaking of the EXACT same thing as verse 9, which is quite specifically the rebellion of those "messengers" who kept not their first estate. Korah Dathan and Abiram were elders and Princes in Israel who left their appointed offices and REBELLED against the HIGHEST as embodied in MOSES.

Do you see? You can't jerk a verse out of the middle of this message and put it off into some incredible fantastic NEW thing that no one has ever heard of before and certainly has no other scriptural basis! That is bad practice for a Bible student. Read it all. Here it is;

(Jud 1:6)
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Now read Numbers 16 what he is referring to;


(Num 16:30)
But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD.

(Num 16:31)
And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them:

(Num 16:32)
And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods.

(Num 16:33)
They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.

(Num 16:34)
And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also.

Same story. As in verse 11, they perished as in the gainsaying of Korah. (Core in KJV)

That is the topic. Not some fantastic fight between two angelic beings. That is an incredulous assertion!

Moses didn't take up a "railing accusation" against this devil Korah. In Jude it says he "durst not bring a railing accusation" right?

What Jude is referring to is Numbers 16, clear up to and summarized here;


(Num 16:27)
So they gat up from the tabernacle of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, on every side: and Dathan and Abiram came out, and stood in the door of their tents, and their wives, and their sons, and their little children.

(Num 16:28)
And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.

(Num 16:29)
If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the LORD hath not sent me.

(Num 16:30)
But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD.

(Num 16:31)
And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them:

Moses aka Michael (aka one as God) did NOT bring a railing accusation against them, but instead spoke to Israel to get away from them and let God Himself REBUKE THEM. Which He did by swallowing them up into the great pit...

...WHICH IS WHAT JUDE verse 6 SAYS;


(Jud 1:6)
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Peter uses the same metaphoric language about the exact same occurrence in;
(2Pe 2:4)
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Peter is also warning about false teachers and also adds the account of the flood to his narration in addition to Sodom and Gomorrah as does Jude. THEY ARE BOTH SPEAKING OF THE SAME THING WARNING US USING EXAMPLES OUT OF THE O.T.

Those who went down into the "pit" were the rulers in Israel who rebelled. They are in "chains of darkness".
Their infamy is impressed upon us in further scriptures in warning about the jews and their attempts and stealing the heritage of Israel away from the Body of Christ, just the same as they attempted to steal the congregation of the 'body of Moses' away from Moses/God. The Pharisees quite specifically and those who are like them are referred to often as "of the devil" and "the synagogue of satan" who attempt to steal the birthright from the Body of Christ, even by murdering Him. And neither did Jesus bring a railing accusation against them, but let God be the judge and left them to their fate as became them in AD 70 as He promised.

You see David, if you let Holy Writ breathe to you, let it interpret itself through exegesis, you will find the truth and not be tangled up in bizarre doctrines of devils. It all is beautiful if we pull aside the man made 'devil' doctrines and let God reveal to us. He loves to open eyes and open scriptures to us. Most here will not receive this because they are so into their ideas of supernatural battles and stuff nothing will change for them. And that is ok. But I assure you, those who comprehend what I'm saying here, some will go "wow" that is worth looking into!
I can assure you, I was raised with the same devil doctrines that you were. Taught the same things.
But I threw away all my books and for over 30 years in sola scriptura and prayer for knowledge wisdom and understanding, and these things become revealed clear as a bell, without a shadow of a doubt. I am much more interested in the truth that sets me free than in parroting doctrines of men that I was taught as a child.

Please think and pray about this. You will see


Love in Christ,
Whitestone


(1Ti 4:1)
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

 

[jiggyfly]

Hello Whitestone, where do you see in scripture your statement "In Himself, Jesus destroyed the devil."?

 

[Whitestone]

Hello Whitestone, where do you see in scripture your statement "In Himself, Jesus destroyed the devil."?

Hi Jiggfly thanks for the question. Is a "Jiggfly" a fishing lure? Appropriate name for a christian

After Adam disobeyed God and sinned, God promised redemption, in a very curious manner...

(Gen 3:15) And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Through Jesus' death, (bruise to the heel) Jesus destroyed Death (bruise to the head)

This could only be done in His Body of flesh containing the fallen nature of Adam "in bondage", or else it would be meaningless and scripture would be meaningless. That is why our savior came in the flesh, to destroy the devil and His works, WITHIN HIMSELF;

(Heb 2:14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
(Heb 2:15) And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

These are just a bare bones outline of the Bible message, but if you can see this much now, then we can go into the dozens of scriptures that describe how WE identify with the death of Jesus to Himself, by US dying to ourselves in baptism (die in Christ) and continuing in crucifying the lusts of the FLESH and the affections thereof, (raised in newness of life being a servant of sin no longer).

But to specifically answer your question, Heb 2:14 describes that Jesus destroyed the devil, "bruised his head" when He crucified His own flesh on the cross. Flesh and the affections thereof are the enemy,

(Gal 5:24) And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

That is how Jesus destroyed the devil. It was His flesh and His own personal will that He crucified. The "devil" = "sinful flesh".

Jesus was "made sin for us" and therefore He destroyed that "devil" of sinful flesh on the cross.
How was He made sin?
By being "hung on a tree" which was a sin/curse under the Law;

(Gal 3:13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

So as Jesus was "made sin" for us by being cursed by the law, He then DIED, destroying that sin-self along with the law of sin and death within Himself (devil).
"That last enemy destroyed" as it says in Holy Writ. Death was destroyed.
Now the Blessing of Life could come forth! And three days later, the Blessing of Life did indeed spring forth from the dead! The "bruising of his heel" wasn't a permanent death! He couldn't be held in the grave, because the "devil" was destroyed, and the power of death was destroyed in Christ's death.

If one doesn't understand this, but puts it off into some nether mystical world of supernatural demons and doesn't relate to their own personal 'devil', what could such an idea have to do with Christ overcoming anything in Himself?? Or in us???

Anyway, there is a tidbit of understanding from the Lord to answer your question, and I'm happy to give witness of His Word to you. Quite different than what you'll hear from the doctrines of men learned from seminary eh?

Peace in Christ Jesus our Lord and our God!
Whitestone

 

[jiggyfly]

Hi Jiggfly thanks for the question. Is a "Jiggfly" a fishing lure? Appropriate name for a christian

After Adam disobeyed God and sinned, God promised redemption, in a very curious manner...

(Gen 3:15) And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Through Jesus' death, (bruise to the heel) Jesus destroyed Death (bruise to the head)

This could only be done in His Body of flesh containing the fallen nature of Adam "in bondage", or else it would be meaningless and scripture would be meaningless. That is why our savior came in the flesh, to destroy the devil and His works, WITHIN HIMSELF;

(Heb 2:14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
(Heb 2:15) And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

These are just a bare bones outline of the Bible message, but if you can see this much now, then we can go into the dozens of scriptures that describe how WE identify with the death of Jesus to Himself, by US dying to ourselves in baptism (die in Christ) and continuing in crucifying the lusts of the FLESH and the affections thereof, (raised in newness of life being a servant of sin no longer).

But to specifically answer your question, Heb 2:14 describes that Jesus destroyed the devil, "bruised his head" when He crucified His own flesh on the cross. Flesh and the affections thereof are the enemy,

(Gal 5:24) And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

That is how Jesus destroyed the devil. It was His flesh and His own personal will that He crucified. The "devil" = "sinful flesh".

Jesus was "made sin for us" and therefore He destroyed that "devil" of sinful flesh on the cross.
How was He made sin?
By being "hung on a tree" which was a sin/curse under the Law;

(Gal 3:13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

So as Jesus was "made sin" for us by being cursed by the law, He then DIED, destroying that sin-self along with the law of sin and death within Himself (devil).
"That last enemy destroyed" as it says in Holy Writ. Death was destroyed.
Now the Blessing of Life could come forth! And three days later, the Blessing of Life did indeed spring forth from the dead! The "bruising of his heel" wasn't a permanent death! He couldn't be held in the grave, because the "devil" was destroyed, and the power of death was destroyed in Christ's death.

If one doesn't understand this, but puts it off into some nether mystical world of supernatural demons and doesn't relate to their own personal 'devil', what could such an idea have to do with Christ overcoming anything in Himself?? Or in us???

Anyway, there is a tidbit of understanding from the Lord to answer your question, and I'm happy to give witness of His Word to you. Quite different than what you'll hear from the doctrines of men learned from seminary eh?

Peace in Christ Jesus our Lord and our God!
Whitestone

All this posting and still don't see any mention of "within Himself". Seems to me that you are adding the "within". Can you please post scripture that clearly states your mention of "within Himself"?

 

[David777]

Hello Whitestone.

In post #82 you scolded me for using the phrase 'Ángelic beings';

I was quoting you when I used the phrase Whitestone.

You originally said "It is nonsense to think it is some Heavenly fallen angelic being."

Please scold yourself, it was your phrase not mine.

Now, may I reply.

Matthew 24:31
And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL
GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky
to the other.

I do not need to employ any methodology to read this verse.

It states what it states in a simple, user friendly, literal rendering.

Nothing up my sleeve either.

What a shame your interpretation is so modern and mature.

It appears that you may have taken your eyes off the ball.