Evidence For A PreTribulation Rapture

[greatlybeloved]

For instance in Revelation 5:9 we are told who the twenty-four elders and the four beasts are; why assume anything?

Rev 5:9 does not give all the details as to who exactly the 24 elders are. They were redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and they were made king and priests! But does that mean they were the RAPTURED body of Christ? We do not read that. They could simply be dead believers, or Old testament saints (Israel + Gentile believers).

On top of the things I have said, the rapture of the first portion of the Church should occur thirty days prior to John being caught to the future to see them all seated with Jesus in heaven. How do we come to that conclusion? Scripture such as Daniel 12:11; thirty days prior to the seven years of tribulation, not assumption

I didn't quite get you. How did you conclude that the "rapture of the first portion of the Church" would be THIRTY DAYS prior to John being caught up? Daniel 12:11 talks about time period BETWEEN the daily sacrifice being taken away AND the abomination of desolation. Can you explain where you see the rapture here?

And another assumption you made is that the tribulation would be for SEVEN years. Daniel's 70th week is 7 years,, no doubt. But where does it say that the entire 70th week would be tribulation? The Lord says the tribulation begins at the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24). I know you say it is "great tribulation". But the same "great tribulation" is also called "tribulation" in Matthew 24:29.

That's much like Revelation 3:10. "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." Is this not a promise for those who patiently keep God's word? What other would you determine this is other than tribulation, and deliverance from it?

1. The 7 churches in Revelation may not be the body of Christ. I'm GUESSING they might be tribulation saints. Why do I say this? They are SEVEN churches (not ONE BODY). And some churches are warned by the Lord that they will be spued out of the Lord's mouth (Rev 3:16). Smyrna was told that they will have "TRIBULATION ten days" (Rev 2:10). They were asked to be "faithful unto death", this matches to "he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" (Matthew 24:13).

2. Keeping from the "hour of temptation" does not automatically mean, not being in tribulation. The sun clothed woman in Rev 12 (most likely Israel) was promised that she will be kept in a "PLACE, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent" (Rev 12:14). That means she will be PROTECTED by the LORD during that time. Being kept form the hour of temptation could mean the same thing (i.e., protection). You don't have to mean it to be "rapture". And the "hour of temptation" may not even be tribulation. This could be the "day of the Lord".

And also we often confuse the "day of the Lord" (or "wrath to come") to be the tribulation. They are not the same. The tribulation ENDS with the signs in sun/moon/stars (Matthew 24:29). And the "day of the Lord" BEGINS AFTER signs in sun/moon/stars (Please see Joel 2:31). The "day of the LORD" is WAY terrible than tribulation. In tribulation we see the earth turning up side down but most of the events are not completely new (like earth quakes, wars, famines, etc.,). But on the "day of the Lord", there will be SUPERNATURAL EVENTS. The sun turning black, moon turning red, stars falling down, these are things that no one has even seen. "Men's HEARTS FAILING them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: FOR THE POWERS OF HEAVEN SHALL BE SHAKEN" (Luke 21:26). Please note that this event is described in Revelation 6:12-17. This happens at the SIXTH SEAL. This is the "wrath of the Lamb" (v.16).

This is the WRATH that we are told that we will escape. "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess 5:9). If you go a few verses above, the context is the "day of the LORD" (v.2). It will come UPON THEM (that are in darkness), "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief" (1 Thess 5:4). This "wrath" is same as the "day of the LORD". It comes just before the LORD's VISIBLE return. This is the wrath that the Jews are warned of John the Baptist ("O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the WRATH TO COME" - Luke 3:7)

So my point is, we are clearly told by the Lord (and other Scripture attest to that) that we will escape the "wrath to come" (or "day of the Lord"). But never do we see in the Scriptures that we will escape tribulation. And we (body of Christ) are not told that we will go through tribulation either (but that doesn't mean we will not go through it).

God bless!

 

[Romans 8.28]

On top of the things I have said, the rapture of the first portion of the Church should occur thirty days prior to John being caught to the future to see them all seated with Jesus in heaven. How do we come to that conclusion? Scripture such as Daniel 12:11; thirty days prior to the seven years of tribulation, not assumption.

I didn't quite get you. How did you conclude that the "rapture of the first portion of the Church" would be THIRTY DAYS prior to John being caught up? Daniel 12:11 talks about time period BETWEEN the daily sacrifice being taken away AND the abomination of desolation. Can you explain where you see the rapture here?

This portion in Daniel tells of 1290 days from the taking away of the daily sacrifice which will have be reinstated at that time, until the abomination is set up in the middle of the week of tribulation. That means that occurs 30 days prior to the 1260 days of the preaching of the two witnesses which last until the middle of the week.

Daniel 9:27 describes how the antichrist will confirm a covenant with many for seven years, cause it to cease in only 3 1/2 years and make things desolate. There will be tribulation during the first 3 1/2 years but just wait until the last 3 1/2 years.

Where are the twenty-four elders and the four beasts before this? They will be caught up in the rapture somewhere before the antichrist is revealed, and they are to be seen with Jesus in Revelation Chapter Four in His presence when a throne is set in heaven in Revelation 4:2.

And another assumption you made is that the tribulation would be for SEVEN years. Daniel's 70th week is 7 years,, no doubt. But where does it say that the entire 70th week would be tribulation? The Lord says the tribulation begins at the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24). I know you say it is "great tribulation". But the same "great tribulation" is also called "tribulation" in Matthew 24:29.

Romans 8.28 - We know that the great multitude of Revelation Chapter Seven is shown caught up to God and are before His throne in heaven, and they are said to have come out of "Great tribulation" in Revelation 7:14. We know they are not to suffer the wrath poured out during the second half of the tribulation when the abomination of desolation is manifest.

Romans 8.28 That's much like Revelation 3:10. "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." Is this not a promise for those who patiently keep God's word? What other would you determine this is other than tribulation, and deliverance from it?

1. The 7 churches in Revelation may not be the body of Christ. I'm GUESSING they might be tribulation saints. Why do I say this? They are SEVEN churches (not ONE BODY). And some churches are warned by the Lord that they will be spued out of the Lord's mouth (*Rev 3:16*). Smyrna was told that they will have "*TRIBULATION ten days*" (*Rev 2:10*). They were asked to be "*faithful unto death*", this matches to "*he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved*" (*Matthew 24:13*).

The "One Church, the body of Christ" is addressed in seven different locations. The angels or messengers, or pastors of those churches are written to by the Apostle John. As today we being many different denominations remain one body in Christ. The portion you describe of Matthew Chapter Twenty-four describes the second half of the tribulation; run for you lives, don't even go for your coat, and those enduring unto the end of that time will be physically saved to enter the millennium.

The condition of the seven churches; the rewards or the judgment to repent is the spirituality of the believer from that time until now, thus the ones of Philadelphia being told they will escape the temptation to come upon all the world if they patiently keep Jesus' word. Those of Smyrna that die prior to the rapture that remain faithful unto death will also share as first rank overcomers of the Church. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. There is a way this will occur: those dead in Christ (Smyrna) shall rise first: Then we which are alive (Philadelphia)and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2. Keeping from the "hour of temptation" does not automatically mean, not being in tribulation. The sun clothed woman in Rev 12 (most likely Israel) was promised that she will be kept in a "*PLACE, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent*" (*Rev 12:14*). That means she will be PROTECTED by the LORD during that time. Being kept form the hour of temptation could mean the same thing (i.e., protection). You don't have to mean it to be "rapture". And the "hour of temptation" may not even be tribulation. This could be the "day of the Lord".

I agree with you here as to the woman, but the Lord's Day to me will begin when Jesus receives His own throne in Revelation 4:2, and begins His reign with all power and authority, be crowned as King of kings, and Lord of lords, and begin taking authority from the nations ruling in usurpation which will take seven years, and His rule will last for a thousand years from on high.

I think I basically covered the reminder of your reply but if not we can readdress it. God bless you in Jesus' name.

 

[rodd]

Antichrist gets his shot at the church for 42mths, Gods wrath's pour out on the unbelieving world in the second half of the 7year period, believers are not part of the unbelieving world, we're not here by that stage, raptured and in heaven, that's where we'll be.

Hey people, notice all the earthquakes happening?
Many more to come and greater freqency, I do believe.

 

[spirit1st]

It Not about the anti-christ !
It about the wrath of Our Father God on a evil world who had refused His free gift of life!

The Only Question is ? will My Father God pour pout HIS wrath on His own Family!
If so why would He want to allow his children tyo suffer and watch this happen?

1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2Th 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Isa 57:1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.
You think HE would do that for a man that is not His Own Child! But leave His child to suffer from His Own Wrath? Does that make sense to You ?
I am Never going to suffer from My Father Gods wrath ever!
His wrath will Never be upon on HIS own family and household!

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;


Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

The only Question to me is ? when does Father Gods wrath begin on this evil planet!
I Will Not be here then!
I do not fear anything on this planet!
But would not understand? If MY loving Father god did pour out His wrath on me!

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

There would be no one left for us to rule over!

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Rev 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.
Rev 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Who would we rule over if no one was left here?
So HE shorten the days!

Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

 

[Ezekiel 13:20]

I just resently was surfing the web and feel upon a site of a woman/man who claimed to have gotten the date of the Rapture (will not say the date unless given permission) from God himself i was a little skeptical so i looked it up and i found the scripture 1st Thessalonians ch 5 verses 1-3 saying we wouldn't know. Am i ok to believe that no one not even a christian will know the day of Rapture?

First of all there will not be a pre-trib rapture.
Nobody knows the hour when our Lord and Saviour,Jesus Christ will return. But He warned us to watch and be ready.

Beware of the false teachers of the pre-trib rapture. Investigate the origin of this modern day doctrine.
Christ shall return exactly as He said in Matthew 24,Mark13,Luke 21.
Read God's Holy Word,not fantasy pre-trib rapture books!

 

[spirit1st]

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.



Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Joh 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Joh 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.



1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.



1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.


Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,



We meet HIM in the Air !

Go home [New Jerusalem] Then Return with Him to rule here!

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

1Pe 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

satan and all those demons who follow that dummy fear the least of GODS CHILDREN!

We have GODS Own Power within us!
And if we want even More? We just Ask our Father god in faith!

We do not worry about demons , they worry about US!

Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:


Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.


We need to understand the purpose of the Great tribulation! WHO is it for?
What is our Place in His Family !

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.


1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Jn 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.


1Co 3:22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;


Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

 

[Ezekiel 13:20]

It Not about the anti-christ !
It about the wrath of Our Father God on a evil world who had refused His free gift of life!

The Only Question is ? will My Father God pour pout HIS wrath on His own Family!
If so why would He want to allow his children tyo suffer and watch this happen?

1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2Th 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Isa 57:1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.
You think HE would do that for a man that is not His Own Child! But leave His child to suffer from His Own Wrath? Does that make sense to You ?
I am Never going to suffer from My Father Gods wrath ever!
His wrath will Never be upon on HIS own family and household!

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;


Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

The only Question to me is ? when does Father Gods wrath begin on this evil planet!
I Will Not be here then!
I do not fear anything on this planet!
But would not understand? If MY loving Father god did pour out His wrath on me!

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

There would be no one left for us to rule over!

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Rev 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.
Rev 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Who would we rule over if no one was left here?
So HE shorten the days!

Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Pre-tribbers twist verses pretaining to the Glorious,Bless Hope of the Second Coming to fit their "bail out" doctrine of pre-trib rapture.
Don't be deceived! "Ain't nobody going nowhere,untill after anti-christ stands in Jerusalem saying he is God. II Thessalonians ch.2 makes that perfectly clear.
Pre-trib tickles ears,sells books and movies,makes rich and famous false teachers who teach it.
Do your homework,who,when,and where did the "bail out" doctrine come from? It certainly didn't come from Christ,Paul,or any of the other Apostles.
Investigate how it has "evolved" through the years since 1830.

 

[Romans 8.28]

#325

Beware of the false teachers of the pre-trib rapture. Investigate the origin of this modern day doctrine.

Christ shall return exactly as He said in Matthew 24, Mark13, Luke 21.
Read God's Holy Word, not fantasy pre-trib rapture books!

#327
Pre-tribbers twist verses pretaining to the Glorious, Bless Hope of the Second Coming to fit their "bail out" doctrine of pre-trib rapture.

Don't be deceived! "Ain't nobody going nowhere, until after antichrist stands in Jerusalem saying he is God. II Thessalonians ch.2 makes that perfectly clear.

It's sad you cannot discern or rightly divide scripture of end times. Are you here to call all false teachers that do not agree with you while you seemingly have no clue. Even then I would not call you a false teacher of purpose, but merely mistaken.

Attempting to understand your theology, it appears you believe Revelation Chapter Four must occur in the middle of the week of tribulation because there are saints already present with Christ at that time.

 

[Ezekiel 13:20]

It's sad you cannot discern or rightly divide scripture of end times. Are you here to call all false teachers that do not agree with you while you seemingly have no clue. Even then I would not call you a false teacher of purpose, but merely mistaken.

Attempting to understand your theology, it appears you believe Revelation Chapter Four must occur in the middle of the week of tribulation because there are saints already present with Christ at that time.

Those are the saints who have passed on before,not raptured saints.
Christ brings back those who have fallen asleep in Him,not raptured saints.
Revelation ch.4 has nothing to do with a pre-trib rapture. I,John is not the Church. I is singular, not plural.
It's sad that so many of this generation have sit on pews listening to would be preachers tickling ears with pre-trib "bail out" fantasies.

 

[Romans 8.28]

Those are the saints who have passed on before, not raptured saints.

Christ brings back those who have fallen asleep in Him, not raptured saints.

Revelation ch.4 has nothing to do with a pre-trib rapture. I, John is not the Church. I is singular, not plural.

It's sad that so many of this generation have sit on pews listening to would be preachers tickling ears with pre-trib "bail out" fantasies.

Again it appears your low esteem of yourself as a Christian allows you the latitude to belittle others as either false, or in this case believing in fantasies if they believe differently than you.

I reckon I do not understand your concept of raptured saints. To me saints don't crawl up to heaven of their own volition. The problem I see with your theory is that though you believe those that have died are with Christ prior to the last forty-two months, you cannot conceive of those remaining alive until Christ comes in the air of being caught up with dead in Christ to meet Him in the clouds. Do you have any idea who the four beasts or living ones are? Enough from me; thanks anyway.

Blessings in Christ.

 

[spirit1st]

Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Noah was saved in a earthly way!
we will be saved in a spiritual way!

because we are his body !
You think HE brings HIS wrath upon His Own self!

is HIS body evil ?
Because His wrath is against the evil beings that have Rejected His Free gift of eternal life!

He sees His Holy children as Chaste virgins! clean perfect beings !

still you say ? He wants to put us though a living hell! because He loves us so Much !

would a good dad do this to his righteous children?

I look at like a good Dad with his children , but see GOD as LOVING us much more !

Only those Born of God will go in the catching away!
The Elect ! All the Elect were once called ! but all the called do not become the Elect!

The 10 virgins story to me . Is about those who are born of God , they have the Oil . the Holy Spirit ! the others were called , But never given them selves to the LORD , so were never Born of God!

I do not get upset with what others think ! To live is for my LORD JESUS! To die is too Gain!

so i do not care if i live or go home!
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


I believe we are in the days of sorrows just before the Great Tribulation!


Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.


Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.



1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[SuzanneA]

Yes, you are more than ok to believe that no one will know the day or time. It's written in scripture. Scripture is your guideline, your map to follow and measure what others teach or preach. If anyone tries to tell you something in regard to the Rapture, or anything biblical....always test what they say against scripture.

 

[rodd]

Yes, you are more than ok to believe that no one will know the day or time. It's written in scripture. Scripture is your guideline, your map to follow and measure what others teach or preach. If anyone tries to tell you something in regard to the Rapture, or anything biblical....always test what they say against scripture.

Very true, but this doesn't discount the Times!

 

[MightyAngel1]

SuzanneA...the very reason why I stand on John Chapter 20. Jesus Christ Himself...gives us a picture of what is going to happen regarding End Time Bible Prophecy. Jesus Christ fulfills the Law of Moses and gives us a picture of how He is going to do so according to Matthew 5:17-18.

 

[rodd]

SuzanneA...the very reason why I stand on John Chapter 20. Jesus Christ Himself...gives us a picture of what is going to happen regarding End Time Bible Prophecy. Jesus Christ fulfills the Law of Moses and gives us a picture of how He is going to do so according to Matthew 5:17-18.

Jesus fulfils for his people freedom from the law, but the law remains as we know the whole world is locked up under the law as scripture states. But now in Christ we have been set free from what once held us prisoners. Amen.
I look at Matthew 24 and Luke 17, Jesus is saying be aware of these times when you identify these happenings, they will be literal as was his prophesy regarding the temple in the same text when asked the multi-question, when will these things take place and when will your coming take place and the end of the age. Three things there. Personally I believe we are on the brink of the Tribulation 70 years out from the re-establishment of Israel.
It depends how you do the math, the final generation of Matt 24. I believe the rapture will take place mid tribulation, we will see much and become persecuted by Antichrist.
This current Pope I believe to be the False Prophet according to the time he has to be.

 

[tulsa 2011]

The pre-tribulation rapture of the dispensationalist capital C Church is not the starting place of Christian Zionism, or dispensationalism.

John Darby said that the "Church has sought to settle itself here, but it has no place on the
earth... [Though] making a most constructive parenthesis, it forms no
part of the regular order of God's earthly plans, but is merely an
interruption of them to give a fuller character and meaning to
them..."

John. N. Darby, 'The Character of Office in The Present Dispensation'
Collected Writings., Eccl. I, Vol. I, p. 94.

"Them" are all physical Israel. The church, for Darby exists to "give
fuller character and meaning to all physical Israel." Darby, known as
the Father of dispensationalism, thought that the purpose of the
Christian church, the ekklesia as a meeting, assembly or congregation
of Israel reborn in Christ, the Israel of God, made into The Body of
Christ like the Catholic capital C Church, was to honor all physical
Israel.

"Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne so that in eternity, '...never the twain, Israel and church, shall meet." Lewis S. Chafer, Systematic Theology (Dallas, Dallas Seminary Press, 1975), Vol. 4. pp. 315-323.......For dispensationalists Israel must always mean Old Covenant Israel, and none other. Chafer was an early American dispensationalist who followed C.I. Scofield and Chafer founded Dallas Theological Seminary.

J. Dwight Pentecost in his book Things To Come ( 1965) says "The church and Israel are two distinct groups with whom God has a divine plan."

Charles C. Ryrie (born 1925) says:
"basic promise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God expressed
in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction
throughout eternity." Charles C. Ryrie, Dispensationalism Today,1966, pp.44-45.

C. I. Scofield claimed that "Not one instance exists of a 'spiritual' or figurative fulfilment of prophecy... Jerusalem is always Jerusalem, Israel is always Israel, Zion is always Zion... Prophecies may never be spiritualised, but are always literal." C.I. Scofield, Scofield Bible Correspondence Course (Chicago, Moody Bible Institute), pp. 45-46.
Lewis S. Chafer, a follower of Scofield and founder of Dallas Theological Seminary, says "The outstanding characteristic of the dispensationalist is... That he believes every statement of the Bible and gives to it the plain, natural meaning its words imply." L. S. Chafer, 'Dispensationalism,' Bibliotheca Sacra, 93 (October 1936), 410, 417.

The starting assumptions of Christian Zionism is that Old Covenant Israel remains God's chosen people now, or because they are all to be saved in the future, therefore they are now the chosen people, alongside the Church - and scripture is to be given a literal interpretation.

To focus upon the pre-tribulation rapture of the dispensationalist Church is to be led away from the more central mistakes of dispensationaqlism. Don't dialogue over the pre-trib rapture. But state the word of God on the basic starting points of dispensationalism, and don;t get into prolonged arguments over these issues either.


When Christian Zionists are shown John 10: 16, Romans 12: 4-5, Romans 2: 28-29, Romans 9: 6-8, Galatians 3: 3, 16, 26-29, Galatians 4: 24-26, and Hebrews 10: 9 saying God has one saved group not two groups, that Old Covenant Israel after the flesh who rejected Christ is no longer a people of God, and that the Old Covenant was done away with,do most of them accept that these scriptures show their doctrines to be false? No, most of them do not. Many times they will not deal with these particular scriptures at all, but will go back to Romans 11: 25-26 and some Old Testament prophecies about the restoration of Israel which were fulflled at the time of Christ. In teaching that Christ did not fulfill his mission to redeem the lost sheep of the House of Israel, but that sometime in the future he will do so, is to diminish the finished work of Christ on the Cross, and to bring in another Gospel.

 

[MightyAngel1]

Jesus fulfils for his people freedom from the law, but the law remains as we know the whole world is locked up under the law as scripture states. But now in Christ we have been set free from what once held us prisoners. Amen.
I look at Matthew 24 and Luke 17, Jesus is saying be aware of these times when you identify these happenings, they will be literal as was his prophesy regarding the temple in the same text when asked the multi-question, when will these things take place and when will your coming take place and the end of the age. Three things there. Personally I believe we are on the brink of the Tribulation 70 years out from the re-establishment of Israel.
It depends how you do the math, the final generation of Matt 24. I believe the rapture will take place mid tribulation, we will see much and become persecuted by Antichrist.
This current Pope I believe to be the False Prophet according to the time he has to be.

Howdy Rodd,

I understand what you are saying...but the Law of God...has not been completely fulfilled according to Jesus Christ and End Time Bible Prophecy. There are 3 more Feasts of the Lord that need to be fulfilled by Christ and when He returns...He will fulfill each Feast of the Lord...one by one...according to the Law of Moses...and the Law of Moses will not be changed one iota.

The Rapture, and yes, I understand there are many differing views, will occur after the Church Age, Romans 11:25, Romans 16:25, and Revelation 4:1. John Chapter 20...is a picture perfect example of exactly how Jesus Christ will fulfill the Law of Moses....unfortunately...not every Christian believes what John Chapter 20 illustrates.

So, What do they do? They simply change the Law of Moses...to fit what they believe...and God is watching...when they do!!! All one has to do...is simply believe what Jesus does...and waiver not...in unbelief.

 

[rodd]

Howdy Rodd,

I understand what you are saying...but the Law of God...has not been completely fulfilled according to Jesus Christ and End Time Bible Prophecy. There are 3 more Feasts of the Lord that need to be fulfilled by Christ and when He returns...He will fulfill each Feast of the Lord...one by one...according to the Law of Moses...and the Law of Moses will not be changed one iota.

The Rapture, and yes, I understand there are many differing views, will occur after the Church Age, Romans 11:25, Romans 16:25, and Revelation 4:1. John Chapter 20...is a picture perfect example of exactly how Jesus Christ will fulfill the Law of Moses....unfortunately...not every Christian believes what John Chapter 20 illustrates.

So, What do they do? They simply change the Law of Moses...to fit what they believe...and God is watching...when they do!!! All one has to do...is simply believe what Jesus does...and waiver not...in unbelief.

I'll get back, there's a lot of things you've brought up, I'll need time.
God Bless.

 

[MightyAngel1]

That is fine, Rodd, I will wait...but if you have any questions on what you are reading and studying in John Chapter 20...just let me know...I will do my best to answer any and all of your questions! God bless you, too!!!

 

[rodd]

Howdy Rodd,

I understand what you are saying...but the Law of God...has not been completely fulfilled according to Jesus Christ and End Time Bible Prophecy. There are 3 more Feasts of the Lord that need to be fulfilled by Christ and when He returns...He will fulfill each Feast of the Lord...one by one...according to the Law of Moses...and the Law of Moses will not be changed one iota.

Christ is the end of the law for all that believe, says scripture, the law was nailed to the cross with Christ at Calvery. This is what Christ came to do, to put to death the law thereby destroying the power of sin, as scripture says where there is no law there is no transgression counted.
For those to whom faith has come are no longer under the law but under grace, he cancelled the law on our behave to have mercy on us who believe. For those that do not believe, they remain locked up under the law, for the law has power over man until he dies then the judgement.
Not a stroke will be removed from the law because it's by that means that God will judge the unbelieving world.
The law was put in place so that the whole world would be accountable for sin to God. What gives sin it's power to kill is the law. Therefore Christ is the end or annuls the law for all those who believe and receive the grace that is by faith.

The Rapture I believe comes mid Trib, Revelation is split into two parts, the reason for this is the main issue, the rapture of the Saints.(Christians) Rev 13:5+7. at some time within the 42 months he will begin to persecute the Christian Church, this means we'll be raptured some time up to the halfway mark of the Trib.
We are justified by faith alone as scripture says in Romans, and Galatians, and certainly not by the work of the flesh, which profits nothing. A righteousness by faith from first to last says Romans 1:17 NIV, that means from beginning to finality or alone, same thing!

You 'ok' with that MA.
God Bless.