Evidence For A PreTribulation Rapture

[youngjohn]

Gracealone: You wrote that Rev. 4! is a picture of the rapture. I had asked for biblical evidence of a pretrib rapture. Rex 4:1 does not mention the Church. It cannot involve the Church. Here's why:

We read in Rev. 1:4 (ESV), "Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne,"

Verse 8 reads "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Verse 4:8 reads 'they never cease to say, "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!"

In these three verses the words "is to come" is a Greek word that literally says "the one who is coming." This verb speaks of physical movement. It speaks of the rapture when Jesus will pysically come. By 4:8 Jesus will not have come.

The next time these words appear is at 11:17. (ESV) "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, who is and who was, for you have taken your great power and begun to reign." The part about the one who is coming does not appear because at this point Jesus has ALREADY come. Same thing at 16:5 (ESV) 'And I heard the angel in charge of the waters say, "Just are you, O Holy One, who is and who was, for you brought these judgments."

This is not seen in the KJV because that comes from much later Greek manuscripts. So Rev. 4:1 does not tell us when the rapture will happen. This is biblcal evidence. It is not made up.

John

 

[Gracealone]

Well Sir, God Bless you, but in this case I believe you are wrong, but I'm not even trying to convince you, only showing why I believe, and mine is as valid to me, as you say yours is to you....plus I feel scripture clearly show us this.

The Bible tells us in 1Thes.4:17 that we will be caught up to be with the Lord, in the air, and that comes before his second coming when he rides in on a white horse.
Revelation 4: coincides with that......yes still future, but a picture of the same.
We will be soon caught up to be with the Lord, as John here saw so many years ago.
Revelation 4: on to the end of Revelation does not mention the church, as you say, that is why I say we are not there.
The church age has ended, and we are with the Lord,in Heaven for 7 years.

I truly believe you will be gloriously pleased to find you are too.

Many blessings to you John, as you also seek to know him better, and live in the hope of his calling.
Your Sis, in Christ, Gracealone

 

[Fellowservant]

Don't forget the rapture is the resurrection, because Paul says that we will not go till after the dead in Christ go first. (Ie resurrected) it also says here that we will not prevent them which are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Also this should be read and interpreted in its context...

I have some evidence, may i speak my evidence here. lol im sure i can. OK lets talk about pre-trib. My question would be, what resurrection do pre-trib saints go in to meet the lord in the air, if the rapture is pre-trib, 1st or second resurrection? And be warned there is a catch here as well, its found in rev 20.


God bless

 

[youngjohn]

I believe the rapture will be at the first reesurrection. It is mentioned in Rev. 20:5. Verse 6 mentions another resurrection that will be later. That must be the final resurrection at the great white throne. The first one must be at the rapture mentioned in Matthew 24:31 when Christ's angels gather the elect.

John

 

[Fellowservant]

I believe the rapture will be at the first reesurrection. It is mentioned in Rev. 20:5. Verse 6 mentions another resurrection that will be later. That must be the final resurrection at the great white throne. The first one must be at the rapture mentioned in Matthew 24:31 when Christ's angels gather the elect.

John

I agree, this is why i posted that question. If the tribulation saints (Ie the martyrs of rev 20, and all the other saints as well) go in the first resurrection, how can there be one before this as pre-trib teaches.

It can't be done, unless there are three resurrections to come. John only mentions two, as well as Christ, the resurrection of the just and the unjust Acts 24:15. So pre-trib as well as some other views, have to add another resurrection on top of what John says in rev 20.

And if pre-trib, mid-trib, or pre-wrath continue to use 1 Thessalonians 4 as a basis for this, they should understand that 1 Thessalonians 4 is talking about the second coming of Christ to resurrect all the saints. And is not talking about catching away some saints now, and some later. Also John in rev 20 verifies this, by telling us when the first resurrection will be. Rev 20:5-6

And when it comes to prophecy, always allow room for error. Not error in prophecy itself, but your interpretation of prophecy



God bless

 

[Gracealone]

Your reasoning is faulty, the rapture is the catching away of the church.

At the time of the rapture many will still be alive, but, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye will be changed, Corruption will take on incorruption.
1Corinthians 15:51
Behold, I show you a Mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed.
In a moment,in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible, must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

This trumpet is not the last trumpet of Revelation 11:15 but the last trumpet of 1Thes.4:16
It is so designated because it signals the end of the present age.
Two groups are distinguished. The "dead" shall be raised incorruptible, and "we" shall be changed....the "dead" here refers to those who have died in Christ. the "we" refers to those who are still living at the time of the rapture.

.

 

[Fellowservant]

Your reasoning is faulty, the rapture is the catching away of the church.

At the time of the rapture many will still be alive, but, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye will be changed, Corruption will take on incorruption.
1Corinthians 15:51
Behold, I show you a Mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed.
In a moment,in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible, must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

This trumpet is not the last trumpet of Revelation 11:15 but the last trumpet of 1Thes.4:16
It is so designated because it signals the end of the present age.
Two groups are distinguished. The "dead" shall be raised incorruptible, and "we" shall be changed....the "dead" here refers to those who have died in Christ. the "we" refers to those who are still living at the time of the rapture.

.

Ok then as i asked sister Gracealone, what resurrection is pre-trib going in, first or second? Or is there a third one somewhere? Actually i can make a rapture with the man child of rev chapter 12, raptures are not hard to make with the book of revelation. But in order to implement it, with or without scripture, is going to be hard without contradictions. But to each his own, if still in disagreement. Actually I hope it is pre-trib sister, don't we all?

God bless sister

 

[golfjack]

reply

I think what some are missing here is that the dead in Christ are in heaven. What I mean by this is their spirits and souls are there. Then, at the rapture their bodies will be changed to a glorious body like Christ's. The Bible says your redemption draweth near. The live of course will be taken up to heaven, just like Elijia and Enoch. Then for seven years we will go the judgment seat of Christ. Then we will have the marriage feast going on and will have one big party. Finally, we come down with Jesus after the seven years and will rule and reign with Christ for a thousand years.


Peace, Golfjack:shade:

 

[youngjohn]

We wonder what is the biblical order of future events. All parts of the Bible should agree. In Isaiah 26 I find in v. 17 the Great Tribulation; in v. 19 the first resurection; in v. 20 the rapture; in v. 21 the wrath of God; in 27:1 the binding of Satan; in 27:6 the millennium. In Matthew 24 I find the great tribulation in v. 21; the rapture in v. 31; and the final judgment in 50 and 51. In the book of Revelation I find the Great Tribulation in 7:14; the rapture in 11:15; the wrath of God in chapters 15, 16, and 19; the binding of Satan, the millennium, and the final judgment in chapter 20. I expect there will be differences of opinion in these things.

John

 

[Gracealone]

There is the resurrection of life, and the resurrection of the dead.
John 5:29 Matt.22:29-32.......so on that basis, the first resurrection , if I understand your question correctly?

 

[Fellowservant]

There is the resurrection of life, and the resurrection of the dead.
John 5:29 Matt.22:29-32.......so on that basis, the first resurrection , if I understand your question correctly?

Yes you do sister Now, pre-trib teaches that there is a rapture (Ie resurrection) of the saints, and some left behind, as in what they call tribulation saints. Now here is the problem with that, the tribulation saints (ie them who gain victory over the beast) also go in the first resurrection. These are mentioned in Rev 20:4-5.

So there is your contradiction i was referring to. And not just a small contradiction, but a major one. So if we are teaching pre-trib, mid-trib,
pre-wrath or whatever. We should take a good look at this, and not just glance over it. lol i have done that a few times as well. Anyway if you still disagree, we will have to agree to disagree, based on this obvious contradiction, that these views don't take into consideration.

God bless sister

 

[Gracealone]

No condradiction at all...
Those that are left behind have not committed their hearts to the Lord yet, prior to the rapture.
There will be many who will accept the truth in the tribulation, and be martyred for their faith....called Saints , tribulation saints.
You cannot exclude all the other facts that teach the truth that we who belong to Jesus will be caught up to meet him in the air, and forever be with the Lord, nor the fact that we are exhorted to escape the wrath to come, and to comfort one another with these words..There would be no comfort otherwise.

I am simply trying to comfort you ,that we will be caught up,and away from Gods wrath during that tribulation time.

And yes, if you can not see that then we have agreed to disagree for I cannot, and will not, deny Gods word.

You are still my brother in Christ, love you anyway, so guess we will just keep watch, pray, and trust him.

 

[youngjohn]

One commentator wrote, "The belief that there is to be more than one resurrection and judgment has infiltrated just about every denomination. bringing with it confusion, strife, and misunderstanding."
Is that what happens when we accept the plain words of the Bible?

John

 

[Gracealone]

John, I don't get my belief from a commentator, but from the very word of God.
I understand there is several interpretations of his word, so guess all I can say further is: According to your faith, so be it.

I do believe we will see the catching away of the church very soon, so see you then, as we embrace the very one who called us to belong to him.
What a glorious day that will be....Amen? Amen!

 

[candlelight248]

Why do I keep seeing so many of these threads about the rapture? Are we called to predict it or try to?

 

[jbpichu]

no candelight. The rapture is at an unknown time. Anyone who says they know when it will happen has been greatly deceived.

 

[Gracealone]

No one is saying we know the day ,or the hour, just the generation.
And we are in that generation.
Have been ever since the Jews became a nation again....that alone makes our hope more prevalent for this time.

I feel we should be excited,and hopeful, for his soon return.

 

[JWayne]

I feel we should be excited,and hopeful, for his soon return.

So very true, I personally think it can not come soon enough.

 

[Gracealone]

So very true, I personally think it can not come soon enough.

Me also JWayne.
When I came home from Germany in 1962, I could feel America had changed.
Didn't understand why, but could feel it.

Wasn't until Hal Lindsey wrote his book on the Late Great Planet Earth that I understood what it was.
While we were away, they had taken prayer out of schools.

Since that time, to this, I have watched a decline, beyond my wildest imagination, In the basic foundation of America, "IN God We Trust." to where we are today.
My heart prayer is that our nation return to it's roots of One Nation under God, but not sure it will.
There is a point when we have so hardened our heart, that the Holy Spirit then takes his hand away, and helps us along then in the choices we have made.
I believe we are in the end times, and believe according to Gods word, perilous times are ahead.......I firmly believe also that the next thing in Gods prophetic line is the rapture of the church.
Nothing need be fulfilled now before that event.
So, like you say," I personally think it cant come soon enough."

Even so Lord, Come.

 

[youngjohn]

A dear lady once scolded me for saying the Church must suffer before Jesus returns. She said Jesus loves the Church, His Bride, and He will not let her suffer. I think she does not know much history. Today I was looking at I Peter. Seventeen times in that book he wrote the word for suffering. 1 Peter 4:12 (ESV) says, "Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you." He must have been thinking of persecution of Christians under the Roman emperor. In the next verse he mentions the time of the rapture. Paul wrote in 2 Tim. 2:12 (ESV) "if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;"
We will reign in a millennium. Rev. 20:4

John