Falling away

[PloughBoy]

If the we were of the world the world would surely Love us as it is written.

But that one has issues

Im honestly just blowing her off cause it's so full of pride it's deaf just like satan wanted Numero Uno so does that one.

n I'm cool like that lol

N I have no clue how to block the thing
Twistie

Keep walking you will. "For He Makes Me to lie down in green pastures" He has a "ROD" and a "Hook" at the end of that Shepherd's Staff made to Wrap you by your "NECK" and pull you to "Comfort"! For the shepherds staff is for His Own Sheep.

"He [MAKES ME] to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters."


"Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; Thy Rod And Thy Staff They Comfort Me."
We all Stumble.
James 4
…"We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to control his whole body. 3 When we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we can guide the whole animal.

 

[Twistie]

Dear Sister, @Twistie
If you want to ignore a person, go to their bio page you will see a symbol (circle with line through it). Click on it and you will be able to ignore the person.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

Ahh thanks!

Smh

I'm not very bright in the internet area stuff

Appreciate ya

Twistie

 

[Godbehonored]

How does God confirm that "inner knowing"?

And how does one compensate for Confirmation Bias?

Confirmation bias - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So then no direct interaction with God Himself ....

If not, then you seem to be describing illusory correlation

Rhema

You quoted half of what I wrote. I already explained how God confirms it.

As an example, I had this inner knowing that God requires more than faith. He requires obedience along with faith, because they are intertwined. If a person claims to believe in God but does not obey God, he is a liar and his faith is in vain.

God confirms it in Book of James which talks about dead faith without works. The examples that apostle James gave were all examples of obedience, the works of true faith. Just believing that God is God does not mean salvation, even demons believe and shudder. These are written in James 2.

 

[Rhema]

You quoted half of what I wrote.

Technically I only quoted the thematic label of your post, that being this "inner knowing." I was asking you to clarify and describe this experience, and how that would be different from your own personal thoughts about what you think any one passage might mean. The Quakers (the original George Fox ones) focus on this "inner knowing" thing, although they call it the "Inner Light." They too had difficutly differentiating this "inner thing" from a person's own thoughts. That's why they now sit there in silence for an hour saying nothing. And yes, I've attended Quaker services (what would be called the Hicksite branch).

Elias Hicks - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As an example, I had this inner knowing that God requires more than faith.

And that perplexes me.

Why would one need an "inner knowing" to understand that "God requires more than faith"? The requirement of obedience is directly stated by Jesus.

(Luke 6:46-47 KJV) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:​

This same teaching is also declared by Peter when saying that the Holy Spirit is given only to those who obey.

(Acts 5:32 KJV) And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.​

My personal concern is that I keep running into people claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit, and yet are being only led by their own thoughts and ideas, trying to use their own willpower to "sin not."

These are written in James 2.

Indeed. (Although I really think we don't need to go any further than Jesus' own words on this issue.)

There are not many Christians willing to talk about the conceptual differences between Paul and James on "faith," instead making up all wild sorts of twisted explanations to try and "harmonize" certain NT passages. Even Martin Luther wanted to omit the epistle of James, but realized that his invented doctrine of Sola Scriptura would be invalidated were he to do so.

God bless,
Rhema

 

[Godbehonored]

And that perplexes me.

Why would one need an "inner knowing" to understand that "God requires more than faith"? The requirement of obedience is directly stated by Jesus.

(Luke 6:46-47 KJV) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:​

This same teaching is also declared by Peter when saying that the Holy Spirit is given only to those who obey.

(Acts 5:32 KJV) And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.​

My personal concern is that I keep running into people claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit, and yet are being only led by their own thoughts and ideas, trying to use their own willpower to "sin not."


Indeed. (Although I really think we don't need to go any further than Jesus' own words on this issue.)

There are not many Christians willing to talk about the conceptual differences between Paul and James on "faith," instead making up all wild sorts of twisted explanations to try and "harmonize" certain NT passages. Even Martin Luther wanted to omit the epistle of James, but realized that his invented doctrine of Sola Scriptura would be invalidated were he to do so.

God bless,
Rhema

Inner knowing is needed because the same text is interpreted in different ways by different human readers, inner knowing is also needed because you may not be aware there are other verses that already explain what you received by inner knowing. Another word I use for inner knowing is inner understanding of what God means by a verse. This is not gotten from reading theology or hearing from others. It comes in moments when you are just reading a verse and wondering what it means.

If people claim to be led by the Holy Spirit, but their inner knowing contradicts any part of Gospel, then you know they are lying or misled/deceived. So far, my inner knowing has always been confirmed by Gospel itself.

 

[Rhema]

It comes in moments when you are just reading a verse and wondering what it means.

And how does this differ from a person's normal process of just thinking about what things mean??

If people claim to be led by the Holy Spirit, but their inner knowing contradicts any part of Gospel

Gospel according to whom?

(And I do realize we've not defined "Gospel" yet.)

So far, my inner knowing has always been confirmed by Gospel itself.

I notice you haven't used the definite article "the Gospel." Is there a particular reason for this?

Inner knowing is needed...

I truly don't disagree, ... (here's why):

(Matthew 16:17 KJV) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.​

But again, how is your "inner knowledge" any different from you figuring out the meaning of something just from merely reading the writings alone?

It comes in moments when you are just reading a verse and wondering what it means.

But "wondering" is part of the process of human thinking. People wonder about things all the time, and then use their own brain to arrive at a conclusion. Are you able to describe this experience of "inner knowing" and how it is different from your thoughts?

So far, my inner knowing has always been confirmed by Gospel itself.

By "Gospel"?

I'm not sure I understand that phrase. I have spoken with Christians who say that their "inner knowing has always been confirmed by" God, or the Holy Spirit, but I've never heard of a "confirmation by Gospel." What might "confirmed by Gospel itself" mean? (So I guess I have to ask, what do you mean by "Gospel?")

inner understanding of what God means by a verse

How does one know "what God means by a verse" if one is not God?

Has this "inner knowledge" ever given you any indication that a particular verse or passage in your English Bible might be incorrectly translated?

I'll give an example of a verse where the meaning differs depending upon translation.

(Matthew 4:17 KJV)From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.​

​

(Matthew 4:17 DRB) From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say: Do penance, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.​

From my experience, the Holy Spirit has often said to me that a particular verse was mistranslated, and so does not convey what God means by a verse. This is why I learned Greek, and darn, the HS has always been right.

( I appreciate our discussion),
Rhema

 

[lentz]

And how does this differ from a person's normal process of just thinking about what things mean??


Gospel according to whom?

(And I do realize we've not defined "Gospel" yet.)


I notice you haven't used the definite article "the Gospel." Is there a particular reason for this?


I truly don't disagree, ... (here's why):

(Matthew 16:17 KJV) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.​

But again, how is your "inner knowledge" any different from you figuring out the meaning of something just from merely reading the writings alone?


But "wondering" is part of the process of human thinking. People wonder about things all the time, and then use their own brain to arrive at a conclusion. Are you able to describe this experience of "inner knowing" and how it is different from your thoughts?


By "Gospel"?

I'm not sure I understand that phrase. I have spoken with Christians who say that their "inner knowing has always been confirmed by" God, or the Holy Spirit, but I've never heard of a "confirmation by Gospel." What might "confirmed by Gospel itself" mean? (So I guess I have to ask, what do you mean by "Gospel?")


How does one know "what God means by a verse" if one is not God?

Has this "inner knowledge" ever given you any indication that a particular verse or passage in your English Bible might be incorrectly translated?

I'll give an example of a verse where the meaning differs depending upon translation.

(Matthew 4:17 KJV)From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.​

​

(Matthew 4:17 DRB) From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say: Do penance, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.​

From my experience, the Holy Spirit has often said to me that a particular verse was mistranslated, and so does not convey what God means by a verse. This is why I learned Greek, and darn, the HS has always been right.

( I appreciate our discussion),
Rhema

Forgive me for the intrusion.
The gospel is....... Jesus was crucified,buried and rose again. Thats good news...the gospel.
Trying to make it more spiritual and mystical and mysterious is vain foolishness.

I am not familiar with subject inturnal knowing....or whatever. But its the holy spirit who teaches. That could be what you mistake for your own intellect.

 

[Rhema]

That could be what you mistake for your own intellect.

Oh I myself know the difference, lentz, and I'm quite able to describe the difference between my thoughts and God's teachings. I've just been asking others whether they can or not (for the purposes of comparison). Can you?

I am not familiar with subject inturnal knowing....or whatever.

So you intruded without preparation. Okay.

But its the holy spirit who teaches.

And how do you differentiate between this "holy spirit" event of you being taught, and your own natural inclinations to think? Might you believe them to be the same?

(Isaiah 55:8 YLT) For not My thoughts are your thoughts, Nor your ways My ways, —an affirmation of Jehovah,​

Thats good news...the gospel.

In that "gospel" just means "good news," the above is merely a tautology.

The gospel is....... Jesus was crucified,buried and rose again.

Given this, then, I must respectfully disagree. What good is it to anyone that Jesus rose again? (You haven't clarified that assertion.) With regards to crucifixion, thousands suffered that fate. With regards to burial, all men are buried, given a broad enough definition.

Forgive me for the intrusion.

Not a problem.

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[lentz]

Oh I myself know the difference, lentz, and I'm quite able to describe the difference between my thoughts and God's teachings. I've just been asking others whether they can or not (for the purposes of comparison). Can you?


So you intruded without preparation. Okay.


And how do you differentiate between this "holy spirit" event of you being taught, and your own natural inclinations to think? Might you believe them to be the same?

(Isaiah 55:8 YLT) For not My thoughts are your thoughts, Nor your ways My ways, —an affirmation of Jehovah,​

In that "gospel" just means "good news," the above is merely a tautology.


Given this, then, I must respectfully disagree. What good is it to anyone that Jesus rose again? (You haven't clarified that assertion.) With regards to crucifixion, thousands suffered that fate. With regards to burial, all men are buried, given a broad enough definition.


Not a problem.

Kindly,
Rhema

Sounds like you think too highly of yourself.

 

[Rhema]

Sounds like you think too highly of yourself.

I'm sorry I don't live up to your expectations.
But I am more than willing to listen to any rational argument you may wish to present.

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[lentz]

I'm sorry I don't live up to your expectations.
But I am more than willing to listen to any rational argument you may wish to present.

Kindly,
Rhema

I dont mean to sound rude. Nor do i wish to offend you. But i really dont believe you understand the scriptures enough for us to hold a biblical discussion.

 

[Godbehonored]

And how does this differ from a person's normal process of just thinking about what things mean??


Gospel according to whom?

(And I do realize we've not defined "Gospel" yet.)


I notice you haven't used the definite article "the Gospel." Is there a particular reason for this?


I truly don't disagree, ... (here's why):

(Matthew 16:17 KJV) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.​

But again, how is your "inner knowledge" any different from you figuring out the meaning of something just from merely reading the writings alone?


But "wondering" is part of the process of human thinking. People wonder about things all the time, and then use their own brain to arrive at a conclusion. Are you able to describe this experience of "inner knowing" and how it is different from your thoughts?


By "Gospel"?

I'm not sure I understand that phrase. I have spoken with Christians who say that their "inner knowing has always been confirmed by" God, or the Holy Spirit, but I've never heard of a "confirmation by Gospel." What might "confirmed by Gospel itself" mean? (So I guess I have to ask, what do you mean by "Gospel?")


How does one know "what God means by a verse" if one is not God?

Has this "inner knowledge" ever given you any indication that a particular verse or passage in your English Bible might be incorrectly translated?

I'll give an example of a verse where the meaning differs depending upon translation.

(Matthew 4:17 KJV)From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.​

​

(Matthew 4:17 DRB) From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say: Do penance, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.​

From my experience, the Holy Spirit has often said to me that a particular verse was mistranslated, and so does not convey what God means by a verse. This is why I learned Greek, and darn, the HS has always been right.

( I appreciate our discussion),
Rhema

I have one looming question on my mind, what is your intention in asking all these questions since you seem to have your own interpretation/understanding of what inner knowing means?

I have a guess at your intention but I believe it is best that you voice it out yourself.

In case you believe I am dodging your questions, I would answer them briefly for now until you are open and honest with your intentions.

Gospel is the message Jesus preached along with His disciples, as recorded in the New Testament. The inner knowing is more of knowing in the spirit, not in the head (in the form of thoughts). That is the difference. Words cannot accurately describe something like this until one experiences it for themselves.

God is able to give understanding to His message beyond any translation or mistranslation, so I don't know why it matters if the translation is in English or Greek. I have full confidence that those who seek God faithfully and sincerely to understand His message will not be deceived or misguided by any man or spirit. To say or believe otherwise is to put God Himself into question.

 

[Rhema]

I dont mean to sound rude. Nor do i wish to offend you. But i really dont believe you understand the scriptures enough for us to hold a biblical discussion.

Lentz, you clearly have problems with intelligent and well educated people, so it doesn't surprise me that you would employ the tactic of being dismissive to avoid deep conversation that might challenge certain aspects of what you believe.

But if you think you do understand the scriptures enough to hold a biblical discussion, there would be several things I would ask you to explain. But since all of these would be off topic to this thread, are you open to holding a private discussion? (Likely not, though I would be pleasantly surprised if were you to agree.)

Rhema

(But isn't it your responsibility to preach the Gospel to me? After all, you are the one making the judgment that my understanding is insufficient.)

 

[Rhema]

I have one looming question on my mind, what is your intention in asking all these questions since you seem to have your own interpretation/understanding of what inner knowing means?

Maybe I'm wrong.

And how would I know without having anything else with which I could compare?

I would answer them briefly for now until you are open and honest with your intentions.

How interesting that you would impute evil motives and intentions to me.
( I have not done so to you or anyone in this thread.)

But I have been in many conversations with numerous Christians where his or her authority is based upon what you call "inner knowledge" and what the Quakers call "inner light." And yet while such a person's faith is solely based upon such authority, no one seems to be able to explain it clearly, and then when he or she tries, they wind up angry at me when they realize their understand is too vague or intangible. If such is too vague or intangible is it even real? Yet I can explain what I feel when I cast a demon out of someone. I can explain what I feel when I raise someone from the dead. I can explain what I feel when I lay hands on the sick for them to recover. I can explain what happens when the Father, through the Holy Spirit, utters a teaching to me. ( I know what Rhema is.)

But if someone makes claim to such experiences and yet cannot (or will not) describe what happens, then it seems obvious that there's more than a good chance they're fooling themselves.

Gospel is the message Jesus preached along with His disciples, as recorded in the New Testament.

Thank you. I do hope you realize that the definition of the Gospel that you've just provided is not that which is preached by most all Christians I've ever met.

Our First Principles present it this way.... "Since the Father sent his son Jesus the Xhrist, the Messiah, to preach the gospel, then the Gospel is what Jesus preached; and Him alone." I am usually ridiculed as a "Red Letter Xhristian," but can't seem to find fault with that appellation.

But I greatly appreciate your reply. We may be more in agreement than you think.

Words cannot accurately describe something like this until one experiences it for themselves.

Given what you just said, then, when one does "experience it for themselves," then words can describe something "like this." (And that's all I've been asking for.)

From what I gather, then, since YOU have experienced it for yourself, then you ought to be able to accurately describe it in words.

But if it can't be described, then it probably isn't real.

God is able to give understanding to His message beyond any translation or mistranslation, so I don't know why it matters if the translation is in English or Greek.

Two things. First, there is no such thing as a Greek translation. The New Testament texts were originally written in Greek. ( I'm sure you know that.) But secondly, shouldn't God be able to let you know if the translation you are reading is wrong when God's meaning (given through this inner understanding) contradicts what is plainly written in the translation? I gave an example above, but you seemed to have missed it.

I'll give an example of a verse where the meaning differs depending upon translation.

(Matthew 4:17 KJV)From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.​

(Matthew 4:17 DRB) From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say: Do penance, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.​

One says Repent. The other says Do Penance. Which does your inner light say is the correct reading? I see quite a difference between the two. Don't you?

I have full confidence that those who seek God faithfully and sincerely to understand His message will not be deceived or misguided by any man or spirit.

The word of the Lord came to me once saying, "When I declare that I am faithful to that which is my Word, it means that I am not faithful to that which is not my Word."

I have met many sincere men who have been sincerely misguided, believing and embracing that which is not God's Word (either of them). I am sure the Pharisees saw themselves as quite faithful and sincere too, only to wind up rejecting truth.

Maybe your "inner understanding" will open your eyes as to who I am. Then there need be no more mistrust.

God bless,
Rhema

 

[lentz]

Lentz, you clearly have problems with intelligent and well educated people, so it doesn't surprise me that you would employ the tactic of being dismissive to avoid deep conversation that might challenge certain aspects of what you believe.

But if you think you do understand the scriptures enough to hold a biblical discussion, there would be several things I would ask you to explain. But since all of these would be off topic to this thread, are you open to holding a private discussion? (Likely not, though I would be pleasantly surprised if were you to agree.)

Rhema

(But isn't it your responsibility to preach the Gospel to me? After all, you are the one making the judgment that my understanding is insufficient.)

Reading your posts and replies are like listening to a Kamala Harris speech

 

[Godbehonored]

Maybe I'm wrong.

And how would I know without having anything else with which I could compare?


How interesting that you would impute evil motives and intentions to me.
( I have not done so to you or anyone in this thread.)

But I have been in many conversations with numerous Christians where his or her authority is based upon what you call "inner knowledge" and what the Quakers call "inner light." And yet while such a person's faith is solely based upon such authority, no one seems to be able to explain it clearly, and then when he or she tries, they wind up angry at me when they realize their understand is too vague or intangible. If such is too vague or intangible is it even real? Yet I can explain what I feel when I cast a demon out of someone. I can explain what I feel when I raise someone from the dead. I can explain what I feel when I lay hands on the sick for them to recover. I can explain what happens when the Father, through the Holy Spirit, utters a teaching to me. ( I know what Rhema is.)

But if someone makes claim to such experiences and yet cannot (or will not) describe what happens, then it seems obvious that there's more than a good chance they're fooling themselves.


Thank you. I do hope you realize that the definition of the Gospel that you've just provided is not that which is preached by most all Christians I've ever met.

Our First Principles present it this way.... "Since the Father sent his son Jesus the Xhrist, the Messiah, to preach the gospel, then the Gospel is what Jesus preached; and Him alone." I am usually ridiculed as a "Red Letter Xhristian," but can't seem to find fault with that appellation.

But I greatly appreciate your reply. We may be more in agreement than you think.


Given what you just said, then, when one does "experience it for themselves," then words can describe something "like this." (And that's all I've been asking for.)

From what I gather, then, since YOU have experienced it for yourself, then you ought to be able to accurately describe it in words.

But if it can't be described, then it probably isn't real.


Two things. First, there is no such thing as a Greek translation. The New Testament texts were originally written in Greek. ( I'm sure you know that.) But secondly, shouldn't God be able to let you know if the translation you are reading is wrong when God's meaning (given through this inner understanding) contradicts what is plainly written in the translation? I gave an example above, but you seemed to have missed it.

One says Repent. The other says Do Penance. Which does your inner light say is the correct reading? I see quite a difference between the two. Don't you?


The word of the Lord came to me once saying, "When I declare that I am faithful to that which is my Word, it means that I am not faithful to that which is not my Word."

I have met many sincere men who have been sincerely misguided, believing and embracing that which is not God's Word (either of them). I am sure the Pharisees saw themselves as quite faithful and sincere too, only to wind up rejecting truth.

Maybe your "inner understanding" will open your eyes as to who I am. Then there need be no more mistrust.

God bless,
Rhema

I don't believe that is your true intention. It seems to me that you are more interested in questioning people's faith (or make people doubt themselves) rather than seeking answers for yourself. This is not an imputation of evil motives or intentions, just that you come across that way to others.

I am not angry at all, I just don't want to be dragged into a pseudo discussion that isn't really a discussion but rather an attempt to make me irrationally doubt my faith. I am very clear on what God has done for me and my family, I may be wrong or sincerely wrong sometimes but God cannot be wrong. God is able to keep someone out of deception if they sincerely seek the truth. God only sends strong delusion to those who do not love the truth, this is written in Revelation. Those who do not love the truth have one striking characteristic, they indulge in sin.

I already described it in words, its a knowing in the spirit, not a knowing in the mind. I don't know how else I can describe that. You can't demonstrate what knowing in the spirit means in words, I'm sure you know that.

Your constant and relentless picking on other people's words or small mistakes in expression is exactly why I concluded that your intention is not about finding out whether you are wrong. I know the original New Testament was written in Greek. It's such a small matter yet you feel the need to correct me. This is a sign of arrogance.

Repentance as taught to me by God is a change of the heart that results in change in actions. If there is no change in behavior a person has not repented, end of story. I don't see the need to scrutinize over why some translations say "do penance" and others say "repentance". The spirit matters, not the letter, remember?

The main problem with the Pharisees is not that they cannot understand the truth, it is the fact that they never had a change of heart in terms of their sins. They rejected every conviction of sin that came to them (hypocrisy and self righteousness in particular), and they consistently refused to humble themselves. Even when Jesus was rebuking them (a way of trying to save them), they did not think to repent. They wanted to kill Jesus instead. The Pharisees do not even belong in the group of "sincere men who have been sincerely misguided", they are willfully misguided because that feeds their ego, self seeking and sinful ways. They are the group of people who do not love the truth as described in Revelation, hence a strong delusion came upon them.

I have a strong intuition of people and their intentions, and so far, you have failed to convince me of your sincerity in a genuine discussion. Maybe you are not aware of how you are coming across, so I'll continue to observe how the discussion goes and remain open to correction.

 

[Rhema]

I don't believe that is your true intention.

You are quite welcome to believe what you wish, along with your condemnations and judgements of my character. I would suggest, though, that you review the teachings given by Jesus about those topics.

It seems to me that you are more interested in questioning people's faith (or make people doubt themselves) rather than seeking answers for yourself. This is not an imputation of evil motives or intentions, just that you come across that way to others.

No. I just come across that way to you. But I will allow that I come across that way to those whom I pointedly ask to explain their faith and describe their experiences and then find themselves unable to do so. (That's not my fault.)

(1 Peter 3:15 NRSV) but in your hearts sanctify Christ as Lord. Always be ready to make your defense to anyone who demands from you an accounting for the hope that is in you;​

an attempt to make me irrationally doubt my faith.

I am sorry that your faith is that fragile to collapse when someone asks you to explain or describe the BASIC TENET of your faith, which you've presented as this "Inner Knowing."

I've just read recent news reports of a Christian sect in Kenya whose members were led to kill themselves by starvation to see Jesus. How am I to know that you are not some member of one cult or another if you are unwilling or unable to describe what appears to be the most fundamental doctrine of your faith?

Now PLEASE read what I actually wrote, not your misinterpretation. I did not say that you were part of a cult, nor have I disparaged your character. But YES, your post IS an imputation of the evil motive to (and I QUOTE) "make you irrationally doubt your faith." If you have doubts, I would suggest that you take the time to clarify them.

a pseudo discussion that isn't really a discussion

How can we even discuss things that you cannot describe?

And it's certainly disingenuous to call my motives into question instead of being honest and say that you either can't or won't address my questions. It's that simple. Either say that you can't or that you won't.

This entire thread is one of condemnation, first of pastors, and then of scholars, and then a condemnation of anyone (although apparently it's only me) who has the audacity to say, "explain yourself."

God is able to keep someone out of deception if they sincerely seek the truth.

I understand that you believe this, but how can you account for the 1,500 years of Catholic belief before the Reformation of Martin Luther, pinned at the year 1517 ?? That nobody, save maybe one or two (possibly the Cathars) sincerely sought the truth?

The church is in doctrinal chaos today, yet you would have me believe that none of these hundreds of thousands sincerely seek the truth?

God only sends strong delusion to those who do not love the truth, this is written in Revelation.

NO.

It is certainly not written in Revelation. I believe you are referring to the verse in 2 Thessalonians:

(2 Thessalonians 2:11 KJV) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:​

Obviously, though, this begs the question how do you know? How would anyone know that they have not been sent a strong delusion? (But God forbid that we actually sit down and talk about this.)

And I'm fairly sure that you've made this mistake on purpose to troll me. Christians don't mind correction, do they?

I already described it in words, its a knowing in the spirit, not a knowing in the mind. I don't know how else I can describe that. You can't demonstrate what knowing in the spirit means in words, I'm sure you know that.

?????

First you say that you described it in words, and then turn around and say that it can't be described in words ???

But of course I'm the arrogant one if I dare to point out the absurdity of this. What gives?

This is a sign of arrogance.

So if you cannot describe what you mean, then you feel free to turn around and impugn my character and start insulting me? (I'm dumbfounded.)

Repentance as taught to me by God is a change of the heart that results in change in actions. If there is no change in behavior a person has not repented, end of story. I don't see the need to scrutinize over why some translations say "do penance" and others say "repentance". The spirit matters, not the letter, remember?

But "a change of the heart" is not what "do penance" means. And since you see no need to scrutinize this contradiction, saying now that the letter doesn't matter, then how do you explain your own statement (in the following quote) where you say the letter does matter - as a matter of confirming your "inner knowing?"

God confirms that the inner knowing is accurate from other Scriptures

This is completely different than saying that "Repentance" is confirmed by a change in actions. And if you cannot (or care not to) ensure that your Scripture is accurately translated, then how is one to know that such "inner knowing" is confirmed?

Forgive me if I find this completely confusing, because it's completely confusing.

(Remember, in Post 63, YOU engaged discussion with me.)

I have a strong intuition of people and their intentions,

And I am arrogant ???

Just how is your personal "intuition" any different from your "inner knowing?"

But I am so glad to know that your "strong intuition" is for you a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Any mature Christian here should say "Shame on you."

(Hebrews 4:12 KJV) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.​

I reject that you are God to do so. And I reject that God has spoken anything to you about me.

Rhema

(@Christ4Ever - Seriously?)

 

[Godbehonored]

You are quite welcome to believe what you wish, along with your condemnations and judgements of my character. I would suggest, though, that you review the teachings given by Jesus about those topics.


No. I just come across that way to you. But I will allow that I come across that way to those whom I pointedly ask to explain their faith and describe their experiences and then find themselves unable to do so. (That's not my fault.)

(1 Peter 3:15 NRSV) but in your hearts sanctify Christ as Lord. Always be ready to make your defense to anyone who demands from you an accounting for the hope that is in you;​

I am sorry that your faith is that fragile to collapse when someone asks you to explain or describe the BASIC TENET of your faith, which you've presented as this "Inner Knowing."

I've just read recent news reports of a Christian sect in Kenya whose members were led to kill themselves by starvation to see Jesus. How am I to know that you are not some member of one cult or another if you are unwilling or unable to describe what appears to be the most fundamental doctrine of your faith?

Now PLEASE read what I actually wrote, not your misinterpretation. I did not say that you were part of a cult, nor have I disparaged your character. But YES, your post IS an imputation of the evil motive to (and I QUOTE) "make you irrationally doubt your faith." If you have doubts, I would suggest that you take the time to clarify them.


How can we even discuss things that you cannot describe?

And it's certainly disingenuous to call my motives into question instead of being honest and say that you either can't or won't address my questions. It's that simple. Either say that you can't or that you won't.

This entire thread is one of condemnation, first of pastors, and then of scholars, and then a condemnation of anyone (although apparently it's only me) who has the audacity to say, "explain yourself."


I understand that you believe this, but how can you account for the 1,500 years of Catholic belief before the Reformation of Martin Luther, pinned at the year 1517 ?? That nobody, save maybe one or two (possibly the Cathars) sincerely sought the truth?

The church is in doctrinal chaos today, yet you would have me believe that none of these hundreds of thousands sincerely seek the truth?


NO.

It is certainly not written in Revelation. I believe you are referring to the verse in 2 Thessalonians:

(2 Thessalonians 2:11 KJV) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:​

Obviously, though, this begs the question how do you know? How would anyone know that they have not been sent a strong delusion? (But God forbid that we actually sit down and talk about this.)

And I'm fairly sure that you've made this mistake on purpose to troll me. Christians don't mind correction, do they?


?????

First you say that you described it in words, and then turn around and say that it can't be described in words ???

But of course I'm the arrogant one if I dare to point out the absurdity of this. What gives?


So if you cannot describe what you mean, then you feel free to turn around and impugn my character and start insulting me? (I'm dumbfounded.)


But "a change of the heart" is not what "do penance" means. And since you see no need to scrutinize this contradiction, saying now that the letter doesn't matter, then how do you explain your own statement (in the following quote) where you say the letter does matter - as a matter of confirming your "inner knowing?"

This is completely different than saying that "Repentance" is confirmed by a change in actions. And if you cannot (or care not to) ensure that your Scripture is accurately translated, then how is one to know that such "inner knowing" is confirmed?

Forgive me if I find this completely confusing, because it's completely confusing.

(Remember, in Post 63, YOU engaged discussion with me.)


And I am arrogant ???

Just how is your personal "intuition" any different from your "inner knowing?"

But I am so glad to know that your "strong intuition" is for you a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Any mature Christian here should say "Shame on you."

(Hebrews 4:12 KJV) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.​

I reject that you are God to do so. And I reject that God has spoken anything to you about me.

Rhema

(@Christ4Ever - Seriously?)

Thank you for proving me right.

There is a term called gaslighting in psychology, and that is what you have been doing. Making people question their experiences and then using every word they say against them.

You obviously don't know the difference between describing an experience and demonstrating it. I can describe experiences in words but I can't demonstrate it in words, anyone with a straight mind understands this. But you would turn my words around to attack me.

Sure, I remembered a verse wrong, no problem admitting that. I'm a human, not a god. But that is a far cry from what you are trying to conclude about people's (maybe my) faith and how their faith may be a cult.

It's pretty apparent what spirit is guiding you, it's not the Spirit of God so I'll end the discussion here. The Spirit of God never leads anyone to attack people's faith with gaslighting, ever.

The fact that you've turned it into personal attack shows that I wasn't wrong about your intentions, even though you were trying to turn it around by attacking me. You have revealed far more about what you are doing than you probably would want to.

I'll leave you to God since it is His business to judge the hearts.

 

[Godbehonored]

I am sorry that your faith is that fragile to collapse when someone asks you to explain or describe the BASIC TENET of your faith, which you've presented as this "Inner Knowing."

I've just read recent news reports of a Christian sect in Kenya whose members were led to kill themselves by starvation to see Jesus. How am I to know that you are not some member of one cult or another if you are unwilling or unable to describe what appears to be the most fundamental doctrine of your faith?

Now PLEASE read what I actually wrote, not your misinterpretation. I did not say that you were part of a cult, nor have I disparaged your character. But YES, your post IS an imputation of the evil motive to (and I QUOTE) "make you irrationally doubt your faith." If you have doubts, I would suggest that you take the time to clarify them.


I understand that you believe this, but how can you account for the 1,500 years of Catholic belief before the Reformation of Martin Luther, pinned at the year 1517 ?? That nobody, save maybe one or two (possibly the Cathars) sincerely sought the truth?

The church is in doctrinal chaos today, yet you would have me believe that none of these hundreds of thousands sincerely seek the truth?

Can you first prove to me God has directed you to ask me to explain the basic tenets of my faith? I certainly have not been instructed by God to explain my faith to a person I have not even met yet.

You don't need to explicitly say that you were not saying I am part of a cult. The more explicit it is, the more it shows that is in fact what you are saying. Ever heard of a story of a man who buried gold under his courtyard then put a post explicitly saying, "There is no gold here."? Unfortunately, that had the opposite effect from what was intended. So, you know very well that you were in fact trying to question my faith and find some word I say against me so you can declare I came from a cult (eventually). No one is that foolish.

I don't need to explain my faith to anyone (unless God leads me to share the Gospel so people may be saved - not the case here apparently). God knows my heart and I am accountable to Him alone.

For that matter, even my intuition and ability to discern people's intentions is a gift of God. This is what I believe, so you are free to think I am arrogant or whatever. *shrugs* I don't need men's validation, and God does not encourage me to seek people's validation either.

You are right though that doctrinal chaos is in the church today. But that had to do with corrupt leadership rather than people not seeking the truth. One deceiver is enough to lead a whole group astray, I'm sure you know more than me about that.

Sooner or later, the lies are going to be exposed. Many are already waking up to the falsehood of prosperity and cheap grace gospels, hallelujah. This is exactly why I say God will save people from deception when they seek the truth.

If you believe those standing in church pews and congregating in church buildings represent the church of Christ, you will be unpleasantly shocked. There is only a minority in established religion that is a part of Christ's church. The majority of His church are not known by the world and outside of the religious system. Many are on their way to martyrdom or being persecuted in some form or living a quiet life.

 

[Godbehonored]

Dear Posters,
If you can't play nice, I'll just either close the thread, or start preventing replies to it...one by one.

If either the member or content is not to your liking, you are welcome to report it or just move on from it. No one is forced here on Talk Jesus to reply to another. We are called to love each other, but even a Moderator can't make that happen! Just remember loving each other doesn't mean we have to like each other. Which was evident even with the Apostles. So, move on is usually the easiest solution to this back and forth that is seen here on this thread. God will then work on who needs it. Like He did with them.

Maybe, as we each continue to grow in Christ that seeing those that grate upon our nerves in a new light might benefit how or if we interact with those, we have issues with. When it becomes difficult to do, just remember our Loving Lord died for them too. (Oh, and please no mumbling like "doubt that...mumble mumble mumble..") I do believe God hears them words too.

Note: If anyone would like to volunteer to be the first one to be prevented from posting on this thread, please let me know. Sister Twistie you can't be one of them either, since you are the originator of the thread.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

I see a lot of psychological games being played on a Christian forum, which is unfortunate. Worse still, it is covered up by platitudes and nice sounding words reeked with false humility and a true sense of contempt and animosity hidden underneath.

I don't believe the thread needs to be closed, but certain posts might need to be removed due to their insidious attack and gaslighting of people's experiences.

We appreciate your help.