God’s ways are not our ways - Don’t read into the Bible your own desires and sensibilities!

[Br. Bear]

Sacrificing children is according to scripture a grievous sin. Did you miss me quoting God saying it is an 'abomination'?

Greetings KingJ,

may i point out that the 'sacrificing children' you are referring to is/was done to false gods and idols? i realise this is reasonably obvious to those who know a little of the contents of the Bible, but sometimes we can overlook the obvious and miss the point. Not suggesting you have but wanted to raise that point here. Excuse me for butting in.
A question one might ask is what is worse {if it is possble or not to be worse might be part of the answer? } .... turning so far from the One Who gives Life and is Lord and has taken you up as a Father and protector and deliverer and provider etc etc [excuse me please Lord for the etc's] that we [whoever we may be] make any offerings or prayers or such thing to idols OR sacrificing children?

Somewhere in the New Testament... keep yourself from idols.


Bless you ....><>

 

[KingJ]

That might be so. But no one gets to heaven on his own steam. No matter how dedicated they are. It is the blood of Christ. That gets you there.

Many teach faith in Jesus as magic that will guarantee you a seat in heaven. It is cart before horse teaching. A verse like Psalm 51:17 is the horse (repentance). A verse like John 14:6 is the cart.

Luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

And when first born children are mentioned with animals and first fruits of the land as offerings to God. Is it not lying when people like you are okay with saying that it means dedication only when the animals were NOT dedicated but burnt as an offering.

Exo 13:12-13 (Amp) you shall set apart and dedicate to the Lord all that first opens the womb. All the firstborn males of your livestock shall be the Lord’s. 13 Every firstborn of a [a]donkey you shall redeem by [substituting] a lamb [as a sacrifice for it], but if you do not [wish to] redeem it, then you shall break its neck; and every firstborn among your sons you shall redeem [that is, “buy back” from God with a suitable sacrifice].

Really? Animals are burnt but children are not.

God calls child sacrifice and abomination in Jer 32:35. God summarized His greatest dislikes on ten stone tablets. The sixth says ''though shalt not murder''.

Then why mention them with animals.

The firstborn animals were mentioned with firstborn children. Not all animals sacrificed were firstborn. It was just a way to honor God. He wanted the firstborn donkey and male child to be dedicated to Him. You would probably have to dig into Judaism to better understand this.

Because children were an asset. Just like animals. and crops. Wifes were also an asset. so were slaves.

Children were not an asset. They are mostly an expense. Eve was created as a companion for Adam. Slaves could leave at any time. Slavery in the OT is not on par with African slavery to Europe and America.

All possessions. And possessions can be offered as a sacrifice!!!! To appease God the best offering would be a first born boy. You know this but remain unrepentant and willfully ignorant bordering on delusional.

You are making scripture say something it does not. Willful miss-representation of scripture is dangerous territory. I pray for your sake that you are being honest and truly seeking.

 

[KingJ]

Greetings KingJ,

may i point out that the 'sacrificing children' you are referring to is/was done to false gods and idols? i realise this is reasonably obvious to those who know a little of the contents of the Bible, but sometimes we can overlook the obvious and miss the point. Not suggesting you have but wanted to raise that point here. Excuse me for butting in.
?

Somewhere in the New Testament... keep yourself from idols.


Bless you ....><>

No problem, 'but in' anytime. I have quoted Moloch in a prior post.

I have been reading up a lot on Moloch and all the 'Baphomet' statues going up in major cities. If you google the statue (unless you have actually seen it), it is simply disgusting. It has a little boy and girl on either side. So sick.

A question one might ask is what is worse {if it is possble or not to be worse might be part of the answer? } .... turning so far from the One Who gives Life and is Lord and has taken you up as a Father and protector and deliverer and provider etc etc [excuse me please Lord for the etc's] that we [whoever we may be] make any offerings or prayers or such thing to idols OR sacrificing children

Sacrificing children is a grievous sin. In the OT you would be stoned to death for murder. Same punishment for idolatry. Though idolatry can have degrees of wickedness to it. Child sacrifice doesn't. There is no blur on its wickedness.

 

[Christ4Ever]

@Victor Van Heerden
Hello Brother,
Love the Title of the Thread!
God’s ways are not our ways - Don’t read into the Bible your own desires and sensibilities!

Too often we as believers want to believe that we and God are like minded.
I personally want to believe that we are slowly being changed, renewed if you'd like, to close that gap. Gap, of course being an understatement of how wide the expanse/gulf really is from where we currently are to where God is. Still, in Christ the gap is closing! Alleluia!

All one has to do is look at how God showed His Love to a World that has no Love for Him. Until then, such an act on the part of humanity, would have been seen as something other then Love, i.e. worship, obligation, etc. Surely, not Love. Keeping in mind that this act of Love included as recipients, the very ones who performed the Scourging and Crucifixion. Boggles the mind, and regardless of the time period, beyond comprehension for any parent to say they'd do the same (Meaning for those who hate you.).

Still, trying to connect the mores of yesteryear to now, is difficult indeed. Especially if one sees each act recorded in Scripture as somehow reflecting the approval of God, instead of it at times just being an accurate account of what happened with neither God's approval or disapproval noted, for each and every occurrence.

We really should take care however (General Statement), on attempting to quantify what is acceptable to God, with a blanket coverage of this or that (fill in the blanks). I mean, if we are honest and were to use a "what if" scenario (use them, but don't like to) believe that God would have allowed Abraham to go through with sacrificing his son, that He could not have given life to that very same child shortly thereafter???? So, why our distaste? I used to wonder the death of the children by bears for having insulted a prophet! Horrible! Yet, small accounts can be found throughout Scripture that just reaffirms how little we truly understand our Loving God. (Don't forget the servant who just attempted to prevent the Ark from turning over from stumbling oxen!).

So, fear of the Lord, is rightly said to be the beginning of Wisdom. I believe the operative word being "beginning". Long way to go yet.

Back to work!

Thank-you for allowing me to share these words.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

Jephthah made a foolish vow to God. God did not tell him to do it.

Yep of course he did. He made a foolish vow to God but he really wanted to please God and thought that he was. Who wouldn't if you give God your precious daughter? He did not doubt that he was in the right and under God's guidance and will and nor did his daughter who like martyrs past and present went willingly, proudly and sincerely to their sacrificial deaths thinking that they are doing God a great favour.

Or do you think he was cursing God instead of giving God the gift of his daughter in appreciation for God's willing and beneficial help in defeating the evil Ammonites . God did not stop him like he stopped Abraham from sacrificing his only son Issac.!!!!! Why? You only think he is foolish because of your modern day sensibilities. You should be asking yourself the question why did he sacrifice his daughter when we think it is foolish but he obviously did not and he was a learned, skilled, wise Judge and leader of the Israelite that God put in that position. God did not think he was a foolish, fickle, circus clown. You/we are not in his time? Are we?

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

Thank-you for allowing me to share these words.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.

Cannot disagree - and bless you to.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

In the OT you would be stoned to death for murder

A bit ironic committing murder to punish a murderer.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

Sacrificing children is a grievous sin

The Bible only seems to condemn child sacrifice if it is to "other" gods. We know this because God required of Abraham a child sacrifice.
The ten commandments might say do not commit murder - but sacrificing a child to God is NOT classed as murder - is it? For no reason at all God commands Abraham to sacrifice his only son by fire; ironically the only son that was previously miraculously given to him ( Genesis 17:15). God with foreknowledge demands this and then just as he was about to slaughter his son, he stops and says “I was just checking to see your obedience”? Abraham would not have even thought about sacrificing his son, and he would have kicked up a major protester action just like he did with God’s destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. That is if his moral convictions were violated by God’s demand. They were not because it is what some Israelite did at various times. God's silence about child sacrifice gives it away NOT once does God say child sacrifice is abhorrent to him in this passage. Why?

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

Bless you ....><>

And bless you to.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

The shedding of blood is needed as a sacrifice for our sins

Ding, ding, ding the penny has dropped. At last we are in agreement. The shedding of blood is needed as a sacrifice for our sins. In the OT it was initially the blood of children and animals, then animals and male foreskins. It is thought by the overwhelming majority of serious scholars that the Abraham narrative was when the Israelite stopped official child sacrifice. God sending an angel to present a ram for the salughter instead of Issac. And circumcision is a also blood letting for God as a sign of the Abrahamic covenant. Blood, blood, blood. From flesh of animals and humans( children or adults does not matter).

Study child sacrifice in other primitive cultures like that of the Hebrew.
Ammonite culture, Aztec culture, Inca culture, Maya culture, Moche culture, Hebrew culture, etc

From wiki - " Child sacrifice is the ritualistic killing of children in order to please or appease a god or supernatural beings in order to achieve a desired result. As such, it is a form of human sacrifice. The practice has received considerable opposition throughout history, and it has often become a target for those engaged in criticism of religion.

Child sacrifice is thought to be an extreme extension of the idea that, the more important the object of sacrifice, the more devout the person giving it up is."

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

Sacrificing children is a grievous sin. In the OT you would be stoned to death for murder. Same punishment for idolatry. Though idolatry can have degrees of wickedness to it. Child sacrifice doesn't. There is no blur on its wickedness.

from wiki -
References in the Tanakh point to an awareness of human sacrifice in the history of ancient Near Eastern practice. In Leviticus 18:21, 20:3 and Deuteronomy 12:30-31, 18:10, the Torah contains a number of imprecations against and laws forbidding child sacrifice and human sacrifice in general. The Tanakh denounces human sacrifice as barbaric customs of Baal worshippers (e.g. Psalms 106:37).

James Kugel argues that the Torah's specifically forbidding child sacrifice indicates that it happened in Israel as well.

[11] Mark S. Smith argues that the mention of "Topeth" in Isaiah 30:27–33

indicates an acceptance of child sacrifice in the early Jerusalem practices, to which the law in Leviticus 20:2–5 forbidding child sacrifice is a response.

Some Israelites and Judahites believed child sacrifice was a legitimate religious practice.

 

[Dovegiven]

Nope - why did God want blood sacrificial offerings in the OT?
For atonement.
Why was Jesus sacrificed by God?
For atonement.
Most sacrificed are willing.

Look at the story Jephthah's daughter in the OP. She is a figure in the Hebrew Bible, whose story is recounted in Judges 11. The judge Jephthah had just won a battle over the Ammonites, and vowed that he would offer the first thing that came out of his house as a burnt offering to Yahweh. However, his only child, an came out to meet him dancing and playing a tambourine (v. 34). She encourages Jephthah to fulfill his vow (v. 36) but asks for two months to weep for her virginity (v. 38). After this period of time Jephthah fulfilled his vow and offered his daughter.

The majority opinion among scholars is that Jephthah killed his daughter as an act of willing human sacrifice.

It was a consequence of making a vow before men and God. One is held accountable to personal vows. Such a vow is not considered binding on others. Where did you find a "majority" of scholars agreeing that episode marked a divine approval of human sacrifice? Which scholars? I know of no Christian scholars believing that way.

 

[Dovegiven]

from wiki -
References in the Tanakh point to an awareness of human sacrifice in the history of ancient Near Eastern practice. In Leviticus 18:21, 20:3 and Deuteronomy 12:30-31, 18:10, the Torah contains a number of imprecations against and laws forbidding child sacrifice and human sacrifice in general. The Tanakh denounces human sacrifice as barbaric customs of Baal worshippers (e.g. Psalms 106:37).

James Kugel argues that the Torah's specifically forbidding child sacrifice indicates that it happened in Israel as well.

[11] Mark S. Smith argues that the mention of "Topeth" in Isaiah 30:27–33

indicates an acceptance of child sacrifice in the early Jerusalem practices, to which the law in Leviticus 20:2–5 forbidding child sacrifice is a response.

Some Israelites and Judahites believed child sacrifice was a legitimate religious practice.

And that acceptance among Israelites resulted in their abandonment by God, loss of their nation. They were judged harshly for their spiritual adulteries. So yes, the Jews did accept the practice, but to their destruction. They also erected monuments to false gods in the "groves" which were apart from the official worship site.

 

[Dovegiven]

Citations please!! Or is your humble and unlearned opinion good enough.


Of course not. Where did i state that it was?

I will not pollute my mind and spirit refreshing with your doctrines. They are false, contrary to the word of God. Christians are not called to convince fools. Apply that anyway you deem appropriate.

 

[Dovegiven]

It appears VV Heerden has mistakenly viewed that Father God put His Son Jesus on the cross as a holy sacrifice. The fact is that Jesus, the only begotten son of God willingly, while in the flesh, gave Himself to be a suitable sacrifice of blessing to all mankind, for all who would believe upon Jesus as authentically the one sacrifice God approved of for the purpose of substitution for paying the atoning price for sins PLUS for the whole of humanity, of whom whichever would believe that one sacrifice satisfied Father God, will be saved by Him.

If you are waiting for a better solution, you are eternally condemned. No more sacrifices are required. Father God has Jesus' blood in His laver at His altar.

Accept the LAMB of God, Jesus the Christ of God.

 

[Dovegiven]

Ding, ding, ding the penny has dropped. At last we are in agreement. The shedding of blood is needed as a sacrifice for our sins. In the OT it was initially the blood of children and animals, then animals and male foreskins. It is thought by the overwhelming majority of serious scholars that the Abraham narrative was when the Israelite stopped official child sacrifice. God sending an angel to present a ram for the salughter instead of Issac. And circumcision is a also blood letting for God as a sign of the Abrahamic covenant. Blood, blood, blood. From flesh of animals and humans( children or adults does not matter).

Study child sacrifice in other primitive cultures like that of the Hebrew.
Ammonite culture, Aztec culture, Inca culture, Maya culture, Moche culture, Hebrew culture, etc

From wiki - " Child sacrifice is the ritualistic killing of children in order to please or appease a god or supernatural beings in order to achieve a desired result. As such, it is a form of human sacrifice. The practice has received considerable opposition throughout history, and it has often become a target for those engaged in criticism of religion.

Child sacrifice is thought to be an extreme extension of the idea that, the more important the object of sacrifice, the more devout the person giving it up is."

SICK

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

I will not pollute my mind and spirit refreshing with your doctrines. They are false, contrary to the word of God. Christians are not called to convince fools. Apply that anyway you deem appropriate.

Calling me sick ( the central theme of Christianity is a human/God blood sacrificial offering for atonement from sin - do you know Christianity) and a fool (calling someone a fool lines you up for hellfire). Ad hominem - proof that you have failed in your task.

Thank you for interacting on this thread most are ducking under the pew.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

Father God put His Son Jesus on the cross as a holy sacrifice. The fact is that Jesus, the only begotten son of God willingly, while in the flesh

Totally IRRELEVANT if it was a willing sacrifice. Most are like martyrs who are willing to go to their deaths in order to please God. The fact is that in the OT blood was required for atonement and as God never ever changes in the NT blood is also required for atonement. Lets see if you get to heaven on your own steam. You cannot. Jesus is the way, the truth, the gate, the window, etc nobody gets to see or know God unless though the BLOOD OF THE LAMB. Are you washed in the BLOOD OF THE LAMB?

Thank you for interacting on this thread most are ducking under the pew.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

Christians are not called to convince fools. A

Bless you to.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

I know of no Christian scholars believing that way.

Why would Christian scholars be of any significance to dissecting the Torah. Christians "look" at the OT with "Jesus goggles." In order to get an UNBIASED version of the OT and child sacrifice you would need a Jew. And you need to read outside your comfort zone. On Child sacrifice in the OT to Yahweh and other gods there are many scholarly books that know tons more than your average Pastor or Priest or Minister.

Thank you for interacting on this thread most are ducking under the pew.