Has tongues ceased today?

[willb]

Cody the whole argument you seem to be putting forward is based on using 1st cor to define exactly what a sign is. I have posted below other places where the word sign is used, any of these could also be used to define the word. For me thats not a solid argument to use one scripture to define a word...its takes the word out of general context....


39But he answered them, (A) "An evil and(B) adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

10and said to him, "Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now." 11This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested(A) his glory. And(B) his disciples believed in him.

23Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many believed in his name(C) when they saw the signs that he was doing. 24But Jesus(D) on his part did not entrust himself to them, because(E) he knew all people

8So Jesus said to him, (B) "Unless you see signs and wonders you will not believe."

2And a large crowd was following him, because they saw the signs that he was doing on the sick. 3Jesus went up on(D) the mountain, and there he sat down with his disciples.

3(A) how shall we escape if we(B) neglect such a great salvation? It was(C) declared at first by the Lord, and it was(D) attested to us(E) by those who heard, 4(F) while God also bore witness(G) by signs and wonders and various miracles and by(H) gifts of the Holy Spirit(I) distributed according to his will.

These verses to me highlight the real definition of a sign - something that points to Jesus and glorifies God.

 

[Chad]

Brother Will, excellent Scripture quoted! You make a great point here. Although faith is believing in things not seen (Hebrews 11:1) GOD provides us signs as well, shown in the Scripture.

 

[hopeforall]

I agree with you Jiggyfly

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Cody2:

Consider also Paul's words to the Corinthian church (non-Jews): "I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy." (1 Cor 14:5) Paul seems to be saying here that he highly recommends speaking in tongues, but in its proper context. It is not to become more important than speaking forth the Word of God in an understandable way.

SLE

 

[Cody]

I'm currently studying this and will try to answer all of your posts when I'm done. I want you all to know, I love you all in Christ. I believe in studying and talking about the Bible in love and with no hate. I'm praying that God give me wisdom. I want you all to know that I don't seek to argue, I seek to find truth. When I read the Bible, I put my head down on it and pray that God reveals truth to me. I pray that none of you are angry with me because I do not wish to get anyone angry with me. Lets share our thoughts on this subject with love and only love.

I see in churches today people are speaking in tongues. I would like to know why? I would like to point out that in the Bible, when people spoke in tongues it was because people that were present didn't all speak in the same language. We see that in Acts 2 in verses 9-11.

Acts 2:9-11
9 "Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God." KJV

Why did God give them the gift to speak in tongues? So everyone could hear in their own language. We see this in Acts 2:6...

Acts 2:6
"Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language." KJV

I don't believe the tongues in the Bible were gibberish. I believe God gave the gift for a sign to the unbelieving Jews and so all different languages of people could hear in their own language and be edified.

In 1 Corinthians 14:5...

1 Corinthians 14:5
"I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying." KJV

He makes clear that we need to edify the church. I'm not sure about all of your churches, but there are some churches that speak in tongues and do not interpret when the Bible says to. God gave the gift of tongue to edify the church, not to confuse people or for people to fall into pride. I have talked to so many people that have went to churches and heard people speak in tongues with it not being interpreted. Afterwards the people are confused, I don't believe this is of God.

1 Corinthians 14:33
"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." KJV

Also I would like to give my thoughts on 1 Corinthians 13:1

1 Corinthians 13:1
"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal." KJV

Notice in the Bible, when angels talked, men understood. Some where in Isaiah 6, it talks about hearing the voices of the angels and he understood what they were saying.

I believe tongues are God giving us a language we haven't learned because in 1 Corinthians 14:23, Paul says the language is unlearned, meaning the language can be learned.

1 Corinthians 14:23
"If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?" KJV

Finally, I want to say that in the Bible we are told that there are other spirits besides the spirit of God.

John 4:24
"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." KJV

As believers we must be careful. There are other spirits and we shouldn't always go by our hearts. We must always test the spirits with the word of God because only the word of God is the truth.

 

[catseye]

If you speak in tongues then tongues haven't ceased but are occurring today. The New Testament supports this. If you haven't experienced this manifestation of the Holy Spirit then it seems strange or wrong. If you have experienced this then look at 1Cor 13 & 14.

 

[jiggyfly]

Coty2, I appreciate your honesty in the last post. I want to challenge you to seek Father for truth and not justification of what you already believe. I may be wrong but I think you believe what you have been taught from your denomination rather than something that God has revealed to you. I am very familiar with your denomination's doctrines and surrounded by people who share them and believe they are the gospel. There have been numerous times when a professing baptist in a time of great need has come to me for prayer and council and asked me about tongues and asked me to pray for them in tongues. Some have even left baptized in HolyGhost and speaking in tongues themselves.

Please don't just go to your denomination's sources and that are against it, this will only feed your bias.

 

[willb]

1(A) Pursue love, and(B) earnestly desire the(C) spiritual gifts, especially that you may(D) prophesy. 2For(E) one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. 3On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation.

Toungues are also our spirit speaking to God. You are right that perhaps they are used too much in church.....i believe in using them for worship etc but if spoken to the congregation they must be interpretated as you have rightly pointed out.

3On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. 4The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church. 5Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but(A) even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.

This verse just reinforces the one posted above. One important thing to note: Paul wants all to speak in toungues if these were to fade away that would not be in the bible.

13Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret. 14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. 15What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also;(A) I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will(B) sing with my mind also.

Im quoting this to show that when we speak in toungues it is the spirit that prays and not us.

18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

21(A) In the Law it is written,(B) "By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord." 22Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign[a] not for unbelievers but for believers. 23If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter,(C) will they not say that you are out of your minds?

Earlier you spoke of toungues only being a sign to the Jews, this verse shows this not to be the case they are as all signs, a sign to unbelievers that Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour and glorifying Him.

I pray that God will use what we all say to edify us all. Its great to hear you are studying this with a open heart.

I know how hard this issue is. Personally toungues scare me a bit!. I can speak in them but dont like to, see im a control freak and whilst im trying to change i dont like 'letting go'. Toungues requires a total childlike submission to God because we can never rationalise nor predict what will happen.

 

[Cody]

Hey Jiggyfly, Thanks for your reply. My belief about tongues didn't come from my denomination. I love my denomination, but I go by the Bible and the Bible only. I have my belief on tongues because of experiences and studies I have done. I once believed in tongues as you, but after studying the Bible, it's hard for me to accept the gifts of tongues that are used today in churches. I find it weird how, only people in denominations that speak in tongues do so. Why isn't there people in my church that have spoke in tongues? My preacher has never preached against it. To me it looks like a learned behavior, emotional feelings and in some cases a different spirit. I could be wrong though. Some of the Mormons speak in tongues and they believe God was a man on a different planet. There are also a lot of other groups that speak in tongues, so this is a subject I'm going to have to study and not just go on my feelings on.

 

[Woz'umoya]

I think you are right about tongues, Cody2. As you point out, the Scripture makes it clear that the gift of tongues, which is one of the gifts of the Spirit, was a temporary measure that was specifically put in place for the building up of the early church and when God's Word was perfected and completed once the Apostle John was given Revelation, there was no longer any need for tongues.

It is significant, I believe, that although Phillip had the gifts of the Holy Spirit he apparently could not pass them on. It appears it was only the Apostles who could do so and it would seem that once the Apostles had all died, the gifts of the Holy Spirit were no longer passed on.

In support of this there is the account of the Apostles laying their hands on the believers in Acts 8:17 "Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Acts 8:18 "And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,"

In verse 13 it is clear that although Simon was with Phillip he did not ask Phillip to give him the power to pass on the gifts of the Spirit. He waited until the Apostles arrived and then asked them, which seems to indicate that they alone could pass on the power.

After the Apostles had all died there were no more inspired revelations from God, His Word was complete (that which is perfect is come - 1Corinthians 13:10). And there was no one who could pass on the gifts of the Spirit (such as the gift of tongues). So they ceased.

You are also quite right about God not being a God of confusion. And many different denominations with quite different interpretations of Scripture all have members who speak in tongues. It seems strange that although they have different beliefs, they say the Holy Spirit is speaking through them.
Woz'Umoya

 

[willb]

I think you are right about tongues, Cody2. As you point out, the Scripture makes it clear that the gift of tongues, which is one of the gifts of the Spirit, was a temporary measure that was specifically put in place for the building up of the early church and when God's Word was perfected and completed once the Apostle John was given Revelation, there was no longer any need for tongues.

It is significant, I believe, that although Phillip had the gifts of the Holy Spirit he apparently could not pass them on. It appears it was only the Apostles who could do so and it would seem that once the Apostles had all died, the gifts of the Holy Spirit were no longer passed on.

In support of this there is the account of the Apostles laying their hands on the believers in Acts 8:17 "Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Acts 8:18 "And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,"

In verse 13 it is clear that although Simon was with Phillip he did not ask Phillip to give him the power to pass on the gifts of the Spirit. He waited until the Apostles arrived and then asked them, which seems to indicate that they alone could pass on the power.

After the Apostles had all died there were no more inspired revelations from God, His Word was complete (that which is perfect is come - 1Corinthians 13:10). And there was no one who could pass on the gifts of the Spirit (such as the gift of tongues). So they ceased.

You are also quite right about God not being a God of confusion. And many different denominations with quite different interpretations of Scripture all have members who speak in tongues. It seems strange that although they have different beliefs, they say the Holy Spirit is speaking through them.
Woz'Umoya

21(A) In the Law it is written,(B) "By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord." 22Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign[a] not for unbelievers but for believers. 23If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter,(C) will they not say that you are out of your minds?

This verse states that signs are a sign to unbelievers. The only way toungues would have passed away would surely be if there was no longer any unbelievers.

 

[Chad]

In agreement with willb.

Woz'umoya, please explain if tongues has ceased than what is everyone speaking who say they speak tongues? Are they being fools and speaking vain words that mean nothing into the air?

 

[jiggyfly]

Hey Jiggyfly, Thanks for your reply. My belief about tongues didn't come from my denomination. I love my denomination, but I go by the Bible and the Bible only. I have my belief on tongues because of experiences and studies I have done. I once believed in tongues as you, but after studying the Bible, it's hard for me to accept the gifts of tongues that are used today in churches. I find it weird how, only people in denominations that speak in tongues do so. Why isn't there people in my church that have spoke in tongues? My preacher has never preached against it. To me it looks like a learned behavior, emotional feelings and in some cases a different spirit. I could be wrong though. Some of the Mormons speak in tongues and they believe God was a man on a different planet. There are also a lot of other groups that speak in tongues, so this is a subject I'm going to have to study and not just go on my feelings on.

FYI I was born-again and baptized in the HolyGost with the evidence of speaking in tongues at age nine, in my parents living room and I had never been to any kind of church service before.

Not all but most baptist churches seem to be against speaking in tongues and the baptism of HolyGhost. The southern baptist especially, they openly forbid their ministers to speak in tongues, it is part of their bylaws.

Have you personally heard mormons speak in tongues?

I didn't mean to offend you about your denominational teachings and doctrines. I guess I made a wrong assumption about you believing what was taught then. Just wondering why you have always posted links to someone elses teachings rather than post your own revelation.

Have you yourself ever witnessed the the gift of speaking in tongues of the gift of prophecy in operation?

Coty2, let's do this, let's reason this out on this thread with out referring or posting anyone else's links or teachings. Just scriptures and HolyGhost revelation. You have me very curious now as to what your revelation is since your understanding is not based on some other's teaching. This will be good and very interesting too. I'll wait till you post again. God bless

 

[Woz'umoya]

Thank you willb and Chad for your comments. I think it is helpful to look at the following verses from the Apostle Paul's letter to the Ephesians:

"He gave some apostles; and some prophets; and some evangelists; and some pastors and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come in the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ, that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive" (Ephesians 4: 11-14).

I believe the gifts of the Spirit were given to the early church, before the believers had a completed Scripture, to strengthen them and teach them. As the Apostle Paul says: "for the perfecting of the saints, ... for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come ... unto a perfect man''.

The Scripture tells us that the gift of tongues was temporary and would cease when "that which is perfect is come": 1Corinthians 13:8 "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away."

1Corinthians 13:10 "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

According to Strong, "perfect" is: 5046 teleios {tel'-i-os} from 5056; TDNT - 8:67,1161; adj AV - perfect 17, man 1, of full age 1; 19 1) brought to its end, finished 2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness 3) perfect 4) that which is perfect 4a) consummate human integrity and virtue 4b) of men 4b1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature.

So when the Scripture was perfected or completed, that enabled the saints to be perfected or completed. The Spirit gifts were therefore no longer necessary.

I think it's significant that when the believers received the Holy Spirit it was given to them in a visible form as at Pentecost (Acts 2:3 "... cloven tongues like as of fire ...") or it was given to them by the laying on of hands by the Apostles. There was no mistaking the fact that they had received the Holy Spirit in a highly observable form.

Also, at Pentecost the gift of tongues gave the believers the ability to speak in various tongues (languages) so that the foreigners who had come to Jerusalem were able to hear the Gospel in their own language. This was an extremely powerful sign to those who were unbelievers.

Today, there are apparently Roman Catholics as well as a variety of Protestant churches who say they speak in tongues. However, they believe in a variety of often conflicting doctrines (eg Roman Catholics believe Mary is the mediator between man and God whereas Protestants believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is mediator between man and God in accordance with the Apostle Paul's words to Timothy - 1Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus").

Since God is not a God of confusion, it seems contradictory that the Holy Spirit would speak through all of these people of very different beliefs.

Chad, I am not qualified to comment on what is going on when people are speaking in tongues today. Maybe it is a form of euphoria. I don't know if there is always someone who can interpret what they say so that fellow worshippers can be enlightened. I don't know if their speaking in tongues helps or doesn't help fellow worshippers. But from what the Scripture tells us, I don't believe it is the Holy Spirit speaking through them.
Woz'Umoya

 

[Chad]

Thank you willb and Chad for your comments. I think it is helpful to look at the following verses from the Apostle Paul's letter to the Ephesians:

"He gave some apostles; and some prophets; and some evangelists; and some pastors and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come in the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ, that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive" (Ephesians 4: 11-14).

I believe the gifts of the Spirit were given to the early church, before the believers had a completed Scripture, to strengthen them and teach them. As the Apostle Paul says: "for the perfecting of the saints, ... for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come ... unto a perfect man''.

The Scripture tells us that the gift of tongues was temporary and would cease when "that which is perfect is come": 1Corinthians 13:8 "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away."

1Corinthians 13:10 "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

According to Strong, "perfect" is: 5046 teleios {tel'-i-os} from 5056; TDNT - 8:67,1161; adj AV - perfect 17, man 1, of full age 1; 19 1) brought to its end, finished 2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness 3) perfect 4) that which is perfect 4a) consummate human integrity and virtue 4b) of men 4b1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature.

So when the Scripture was perfected or completed, that enabled the saints to be perfected or completed. The Spirit gifts were therefore no longer necessary.

I think it's significant that when the believers received the Holy Spirit it was given to them in a visible form as at Pentecost (Acts 2:3 "... cloven tongues like as of fire ...") or it was given to them by the laying on of hands by the Apostles. There was no mistaking the fact that they had received the Holy Spirit in a highly observable form.

Also, at Pentecost the gift of tongues gave the believers the ability to speak in various tongues (languages) so that the foreigners who had come to Jerusalem were able to hear the Gospel in their own language. This was an extremely powerful sign to those who were unbelievers.

Today, there are apparently Roman Catholics as well as a variety of Protestant churches who say they speak in tongues. However, they believe in a variety of often conflicting doctrines (eg Roman Catholics believe Mary is the mediator between man and God whereas Protestants believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is mediator between man and God in accordance with the Apostle Paul's words to Timothy - 1Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus").

Since God is not a God of confusion, it seems contradictory that the Holy Spirit would speak through all of these people of very different beliefs.

Chad, I am not qualified to comment on what is going on when people are speaking in tongues today. Maybe it is a form of euphoria. I don't know if there is always someone who can interpret what they say so that fellow worshippers can be enlightened. I don't know if their speaking in tongues helps or doesn't help fellow worshippers. But from what the Scripture tells us, I don't believe it is the Holy Spirit speaking through them.
Woz'Umoya

1 Corinthians 13:9-10 speaks of maturity of the believer. It does *NOT* speak of the actual gifts ceasing after the "early church". You've been explained by me and others here in this thread that they speak tongues or have witnessed the speaking of tongues.

So you've misunderstood the Scripture you've quoted, you've honestly said you cannot comment on those speaking in tongues and you've been told that others speak it.

Now, let the Holy Spirit speak to you before you continue on misinterpreting Scripture which is the Living Word of GOD.

 

[ushalk]

the morman doctrines with in it self is wrong. this is a fact it is another religion rather than a walk with the lord. if any of us are listening to the doctrine of any church today and not studdiing the word of god for what it truly says then we are in some serious grave danger.

 

[Cody]

I have a question. If people go to church speaking in tongues. Why aren't there more people that speak in tongues that go on missionary trips to countries that speak different languages? That is the gift of speaking in tongues. If you used your gift you wouldn't need to learn the language to witness to people in different language countries. God would give you the gift there just like he would in your church. Maybe God hasn't called you to be a missionary, but you can still witness to people that speak different languages.

Acts 2:6-11
6 "Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God." KJV

 

[Chad]

Brother Cody,

The Holy Spirit gives certain gifts to certain believers whom He chooses to give, and what gift to give. It is not for us to be concerned of how missionaries that GOD sends over to other countries can interact with others. Remember, GOD has that is His control and also...

Matthew 19:26
But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

 

[Cody]

Yeah, but I'd think that God would choose some missionaries to speak in tongues also, not just those that go to church.

 

[ushalk]

cody, the word of god does not state that all will speak in toungues for the rest of there lives. i am sure that there are many people outside of the man made churches that speak in toungues. all of the people in these churches are saved. there are some that are and some that arent. some people dont truly speak in tongues at all but make it sound like they do while they are around the church or other people that proclaim it.