How could those born BC get into Heaven?

[Andyindauk]

Hi guys,

Maybe you're right, maybe you're not. Maybe when we 'pass away' our souls do go into a heavenly storage unit; the Catholics believe in Purgatory. Maybe the Bible isn't quite as clear as we'd like on many issues. If it were, there'd be no need for faith, instead we'd all have knowledge. Too much knowledge is a bad thing, Genesis 3:5, 1 Corinthians 8:1. For me, I have faith that God has good things awaiting me on the day I die Luke 23:43. Maybe you lot will be in for a wonderful surprise when it happens to you, but then maybe I'll have to hang around for a few or even a few thousand extra years before I get to, in my flesh see God whom I shall see for myself, and not another.

Either way I respect but don't entirely agree with your viewpoints but I do love you all, all the same. I'm happy to leave this in God's wonderful hands. Personally I don't feel qualified or have the time or inclination to get involved in deep theological debate on this subject so I'm bowing out of this thread and wish you all well. The reason I started the tread was to try and emphasise that Jesus's victory over death didn't just cover the future, no, it went right back to the Garden of Eden and all who've sinned since and who believed in God's redemption, both BC and AD.

May God bless you richly.

 

[Waggles]

Then why are the saints crying out for justice in the fifth seal - and being told to wait patiently?

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.
10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Highly symbolic imagery - a reference to history down the ages, but also I believe of the last days when Christians shall be persecuted and martyred in great numbers.
Islam is already attacking our brothers and sisters in various African nations, Pakistan and India, Indonesia.
Without any outcry from the human rights loving Western press and governments.

Not a real situation, but an allegory to the issue of martyrdom for Christ and the gospel.

 

[complete]

Hi Andy, actually, it's not really off topic. You asked how do those in the OT get to Heaven. The answer is, they don't. No one does.

The problem with the article is that the author simply assumes that man continues to live on after death. This is known as Dualism, the idea that man consists of more than one part. That's not how the Bible portrays man. The Bible portrays man a single being.

The author speaks of our inheritance with Christ and says that's living eternally in Heaven. There is no such thing stated in Scripture. Christ's inheritance is not Heaven, it's Earth. It's the land promised to Abraham.

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. 6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 17:4–8.

The land was promised to Abraham and his seed. Paul explains this.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ga 3:15–16.

According to Paul, the Seed that God was speaking of when He speaking to Abraham, was Christ. Christ would inherit the land. God promised it to Him.

7 I will declare the decree:
The LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son;
This day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me,
And I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance,
And the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron;
Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings:
Be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear,
And rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry,
And ye perish from the way,


The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ps 2:7–12.

Here God promised the heathen and the uttermost parts of the land, to Christ.

Where does Christ reign? Is it in Heaven or on Earth?

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Lk 1:31–33.

Where was David's throne? It was in Jerusalem, not Heaven. Christ will sit on David's throne in Jerusalem and reign over the house of Jacob.

There is no promise of Heaven. Jesus told the unbelieving Jews that they could not go where He was going. He then told His disciples that they could not go where He was going. He told them that He would return so that they could be with Him.

'He that descended is the same also that ascended
up far above all heavens, that He might fill all things.'
(Eph 4:10)

Hello @Butch5,

The Bible does not limit the sphere of the Lord's reign to the earth. Neither is the earth the only sphere in which the believer in Christ will share in His inheritance.

'Having made known unto us the mystery of His will,
according to His good pleasure
which He hath purposed in Himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times
He might gather together in one all things in Christ,
both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him:
In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance,
being predestinated according to the purpose of Him
Who worketh all things after the counsel of His Own will:'
(Eph 1:9-11)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

'Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Who hath blessed us
with all spiritual blessings
in heavenly places (ie., the heavenlies)
in Christ:'
(Eph 1:3)

 

[Butch5]

'He that descended is the same also that ascended
up far above all heavens, that He might fill all things.'
(Eph 4:10)

Hello @Butch5,

The Bible does not limit the sphere of the Lord's reign to the earth. Neither is the earth the only sphere in which the believer in Christ will share in His inheritance.

'Having made known unto us the mystery of His will,
according to His good pleasure
which He hath purposed in Himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times
He might gather together in one all things in Christ,
both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him:
In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance,
being predestinated according to the purpose of Him
Who worketh all things after the counsel of His Own will:'
(Eph 1:9-11)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris, I'm not sure what you're getting at. In order to reign isn't it necessary that one have subjects?

'He that descended is the same also that ascended
up far above all heavens, that He might fill all things.'
(Eph 4:10)

Hello @Butch5,

The Bible does not limit the sphere of the Lord's reign to the earth. Neither is the earth the only sphere in which the believer in Christ will share in His inheritance.

'Having made known unto us the mystery of His will,
according to His good pleasure
which He hath purposed in Himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times
He might gather together in one all things in Christ,
both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him:
In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance,
being predestinated according to the purpose of Him
Who worketh all things after the counsel of His Own will:'
(Eph 1:9-11)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

Are you suggesting Christians will be reigning over Martians? In order to reign, doesn't it require subjects?

 

[Butch5]

'Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Who hath blessed us
with all spiritual blessings
in heavenly places (ie., the heavenlies)
in Christ:'
(Eph 1:3)

Hi Chris,

The better translation is heavenly things. It's not talking about being in Heaven. Alos, that passage is referring to the Jews.

 

[complete]

Hi Chris,

The better translation is heavenly things. It's not talking about being in Heaven. Alos, that passage is referring to the Jews.

Hello @Butch5,

I disagree on both counts. In the Greek interlinear it says that the alternative rendering of 'heavenly places' is 'heavenlies'. Our Lord is said to have ascended far above all heavens. Also that passage is not referring to the Jew only, but to Jew and Gentile as members together of the Body of Christ. A unity.

You and I have spoken on this passage of Scripture previously, without agreement: and as you argue on the ground of Greek Grammar I cannot give an adequate defence, but I have absolute assurance that Paul is speaking to , ' ... the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus'.

I believe that the Church which is the Body of Christ are God's inheritance in the heavenlies, as Israel is in the Land of promise: and that will be reflected in where they spend eternity.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Hi Chris, I'm not sure what you're getting at. In order to reign isn't it necessary that one have subjects?

Hi Chris,

Are you suggesting Christians will be reigning over Martians? In order to reign, doesn't it require subjects?

No, @Butch5,

Your sarcasm is not appreciated. For, angelic beings occupy that sphere as you well know. Principalities and powers in heavenly places.

' Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given,
that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery,
which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God,
Who created all things by Jesus Christ:
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places
might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
According to the eternal purpose which He purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:'
(Eph 3:8-11)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

I disagree on both counts. In the Greek interlinear it says that the alternative rendering of 'heavenly places' is 'heavenlies'. Our Lord is said to have ascended far above all heavens. Also that passage is not referring to the Jew only, but to Jew and Gentile as members together of the Body of Christ. A unity.

You and I have spoken on this passage of Scripture previously, without agreement: and as you argue on the ground of Greek Grammar I cannot give an adequate defence, but I have absolute assurance that Paul is speaking to , ' ... the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus'.

I believe that the Church which is the Body of Christ are God's inheritance in the heavenlies, as Israel is in the Land of promise: and that will be reflected in where they spend eternity.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

We believe many things, but the evidence is the evidence. The word translated hesvenlies is in the neuter gender. To understand this as being in Heaven contradicts what Jesus said. Jesus told both the unbelieving Jews and His disciples that they could not go where He was going. We know where He went. They could not go. Thus people can't go to Heaven. I would encourage you to reconsider your position.

Regarding the passage, we have discussed this. Again, the evidence is the evidence. It doesn't change. Paul is talking to both the saints and those who believe. The fact that he separates the two proves the point I've made. He is addressing two different groups, "we, us, and our" as opposed to "you and your".
He brings this to a head and defines who the two groups are in Chapter two.

Ephesians 2:11–13 (KJV 1900): Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

We see from his words here that the "You" group is the Gentiles. He states it plainly. He also states that the "you" group was outside of the covenants of Israel and without God. The very covenants he was speaking of in chapter one verses 3-12. The Gentiles were outside of those covenants, thus, they couldn’t be the ones he was speaking of in chapter one verses 3-12

 

[Butch5]

No, @Butch5,

Your sarcasm is not appreciated. For, angelic beings occupy that sphere as you well know. Principalities and powers in heavenly places.

' Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given,
that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery,
which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God,
Who created all things by Jesus Christ:
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places
might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
According to the eternal purpose which He purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:'
(Eph 3:8-11)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

This is what you said.

"The Bible does not limit the sphere of the Lord's reign to the earth. Neither is the earth the only sphere in which the believer in Christ will share in His inheritance".

If believers will reign with Christ there must be subjects over which to reign. If it's not on earth where do you suppose it is? And what or who is it? The Bible is pretty clear that people can't go to Heaven. What is this non earthly inheritance that you speak of?

 

[complete]

Hi Chris,

We believe many things, but the evidence is the evidence. The word translated heavenlies is in the neuter gender. To understand this as being in Heaven contradicts what Jesus said. Jesus told bother the u b believing Jews and His disciples that they could not go where He was going. We know where He went. They could not go. Thus people can't go to Heaven. I would encourage you to reconsider your position.

Regarding the passage, we have discussed this. Again, the evidence is the evidence. It doesn't change. Paul is talking to both the saints and those who believe. The fact that he separates the two proves the point I've made. He is addressing two different groups, "we, us, and our" as opposed to "you and your".
He brings this to a head and defines who the two groups are in Chapter two.

Ephesians 2:11–13 (KJV 1900): Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

We see from his words here that the "You" group is the Gentiles. He states it plainly. He also states that the "you" group were outside of the covenants of Israel and without God. The very covenants he was speaking of in chapter one verses 3-12. The Gentiles were outside of those covenants, thus, they could be the one he was speaking of in chapter one verse3-12

' Which He wrought in Christ,
when He raised Him from the dead,
and set Him at His own right hand in the heavenly places,
Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion,
and every name that is named,
not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
And hath put all things under His feet,
and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church,
Which is his body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.'
(Eph 1:20-23)

Hello @Butch5,

I do not agree with your interpretation of these opening chapters in Ephesians.

The Scriptures tell me that I am now, ( in spirit, and by God's reckoning of faith), in Christ Jesus at God's right hand . I assume you would not suggest that God is not in Heaven?

'But God, Who is rich in mercy, for His great love wherewith He loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:'
(Eph 2:4 -6)

' If ye then be risen with Christ,
seek those things which are above,
where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
When Christ, who is our life, shall appear,
then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.'
(Col 3:1)

* This is the reckoning of faith: and the (above) are God's words - not mine!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

' Which He wrought in Christ,
when He raised Him from the dead,
and set Him at His own right hand in the heavenly places,
Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion,
and every name that is named,
not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
And hath put all things under His feet,
and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church,
Which is his body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.'
(Eph 1:20-23)

Hello @Butch5,

I do not agree with your interpretation of these opening chapters in Ephesians.

The Scriptures tell me that I am now, ( in spirit, and by God's reckoning of faith), in Christ Jesus at God's right hand . I assume you would not suggest that God is not in Heaven?

'But God, Who is rich in mercy, for His great love wherewith He loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:'
(Eph 2:4 -6)

' If ye then be risen with Christ,
seek those things which are above,
where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
When Christ, who is our life, shall appear,
then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.'
(Col 3:1)

* This is the reckoning of faith: and the (above) are God's words - not mine!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

It's not my interpretation Chris, it's the language. Paul excludes the you group in Chapter 2 from the statements he made in Chaoter 1 verses3-12. That how language works. I realize the position you hold requires that you reject that understanding. That's why I encouraged you to reconsider your position. It runs afoul of Scripture. Paul's words in chapters 1 and 2 aren't really open to interpretation they're pretty straight forward.


It's God's word,, but your understanding.

2 Peter 3:15–16 (KJV 1900): And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Here's a guy who had his understanding of the Scriptures opened personally by Jesus. He knew and conversed with Paul. And yet, in spite of ththis he said that some things Paul wrote are hard to understand. If he had trouble understanding some of what Paul wrote and knew the man, maybe we should take care that we are properly understanding Paul.

 

[complete]

It's not my interpretation Chris, it's the language. Paul excludes the you group in Chapter 2 from the statements he made in Chapter 1 verses 3-12. That how language works. I realize the position you hold requires that you reject that understanding. That's why I encouraged you to reconsider your position. It runs afoul of Scripture. Paul's words in chapters 1 and 2 aren't really open to interpretation they're pretty straight forward.


It's God's word,, but your understanding.

2 Peter 3:15–16 (KJV 1900): And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Here's a guy who had his understanding of the Scriptures opened personally by Jesus. He knew and conversed with Paul. And yet, in spite of this he said that some things Paul wrote are hard to understand. If he had trouble understanding some of what Paul wrote and knew the man, maybe we should take care that we are properly understanding Paul.

Hello @Butch5,

I will leave it in God's hands to set me straight, if in fact I am not correct in my understanding of Ephesians chapters 1 & 2 as you say. Until then I will glory in the truths that are written there for my learning, and receive them with thanksgiving. For His words I have no problem with, only man's use and abuse of them.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.
10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Highly symbolic imagery - a reference to history down the ages, but also I believe of the last days when Christians shall be persecuted and martyred in great numbers.
Islam is already attacking our brothers and sisters in various African nations, Pakistan and India, Indonesia.
Without any outcry from the human rights loving Western press and governments.

Not a real situation, but an allegory to the issue of martyrdom for Christ and the gospel.

That “completion” in Rev. 6:11 is the “completion/fullness of the gentiles”, which indicates the completion of the Great Commission and the real end times. The four horsemen judgement, though, could be anytime before that, and could have been repeated in various shapes and forms throughout history. Nevertheless Jesus warned that conquest, war, famine and death are NOT the end and the signs for his coming, don’t be deceived and fall for it. In modern context, these could be tyranny, civil unrest, economic decline and disasters that cause mass casualty - man-made or natural.

 

[complete]

Hi Chris,

We believe many things, but the evidence is the evidence. The word translated hesvenlies is in the neuter gender. To understand this as being in Heaven contradicts what Jesus said. Jesus told both the unbelieving Jews and His disciples that they could not go where He was going. We know where He went. They could not go. Thus people can't go to Heaven. I would encourage you to reconsider your position.

Regarding the passage, we have discussed this. Again, the evidence is the evidence. It doesn't change. Paul is talking to both the saints and those who believe. The fact that he separates the two proves the point I've made. He is addressing two different groups, "we, us, and our" as opposed to "you and your".
He brings this to a head and defines who the two groups are in Chapter two.

Ephesians 2:11–13 (KJV 1900): Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

We see from his words here that the "You" group is the Gentiles. He states it plainly. He also states that the "you" group was outside of the covenants of Israel and without God. The very covenants he was speaking of in chapter one verses 3-12. The Gentiles were outside of those covenants, thus, they couldn’t be the ones he was speaking of in chapter one verses 3-12

'Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself,
according to the good pleasure of His will,
To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the Beloved.
In Whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace;
Wherein He hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ,
both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him:
In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance,
being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will:
That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ.
(Eph 1:3-12)

Hello @Butch5,

In your last paragraph you say that Paul was talking about covenants which had been made with Israel in Ephesians 1:3-12. Perhaps you would direct me to the Scriptures in the Old Testament, which validate that?

a) Where in the O.T. are we told that God blessed Israel with 'all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ'? Surely their blessings were 'in basket and store'? (Deuteronomy 28:5 & 17) and not 'spiritual' in nature?
b) Where are we told that Israel as a nation was chosen before the foundation of the world?
c) Where are we told that any of these further blessings in these verses were given to Israel as a nation as part of a covenant?

* No! Ephesians 1:3-12 lists the blessings of God that are the possession of the Church which is the Body of Christ, which consist of both Jew and Gentile. A joint body, unified and equal in the sight of God. The words of Ephesians 1:3-12 do not pertain to Israel.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Brother Paul]

I can only find a handful of less than obvious verses in the Old Testament that mentions that God had a son?

Psalm 2:7-8 “I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. Ask of Me, and I will give You The nations for Your inheritance, And the ends of the earth for Your possession.

Psalm 89:26-29 He shall cry to Me, ‘You are my Father, My God, and the rock of my salvation.’ Also I will make him My firstborn, The highest of the kings of the earth. My mercy I will keep for him forever, And My covenant shall stand firm with him. His seed also I will make to endure forever, And his throne as the days of heaven.

Proverbs 30:4 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son’s name, If you know?


So, when Jesus tells us: Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. John 14:6 NKJV how were those who were born BC able to come to God via Jesus?

Many of the Jews believed that you'll go to Heaven if you keep all of the commandments, the feasts and the rituals listed in the Pentateuch (the first 5 books of the Bible) but James tells us that that's a red herring. James 2:10.

How did the Old Testament Jews and believers get to Heaven?

Salvation is by grace, through faith...when Abraham, Issac, and Jacob saw YHVH it was the Word/Son. So Salvation was still through Him, for no man has seen the Father's form, ever.

 

[B-A-C]

for no man has seen the Father's form, ever.

John 5:37; "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.

When Jesus was baptized a few "unusual" things happened. One of them was a voice from heaven.

Matt 3:17; and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."
Mark 1:11; and a voice came out of the heavens: "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased."

Jesus tells them, you have never heard His voice at any time, and yet when I was baptized everyone around heard His voice.
The other thing Jesus says here is you have never "seen His form". Yet everyone saw the dove descend upon Jesus.

Matt 3:16; After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,
Mark 1:10; Immediately coming up out of the water, He saw the heavens opening, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon Him;
Luke 3:22; and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased."
John1:32; John testified saying, "I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him.

Why did Jesus says what He said in John 5:37 ? He was making a point that He was different from everyone else.
The entire chapter of John 5 is about why Jesus wasn't subject to the Sabbath.

 

[MedicBravo]

Opportunity.
Age of Accountability.
God wouldn't condemn a people for one or both. God treated them differently regarding standards and that was a different time, place, and culture.
God doesn't send babies to Hell but a certain misguided group will tell you differently.
There is an Age of Accountability. God wrote Himself on every human and inherently we know Right from Wrong. That age is younger than people think.
It is roughly 12-ish, puberty-ish start years. Very awkward time for them but your kid or not, it is our duty to help inform and keep them on the Right way.

 

[Waggles]

When Jesus was baptized a few "unusual" things happened. One of them was a voice from heaven.

Jesus tells them, you have never heard His voice at any time, and yet when I was baptized everyone around heard His voice.
The other thing Jesus says here is you have never "seen His form". Yet everyone saw the dove descend upon Jesus.

John 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
John 5:39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,
40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

Chapter five I believe is addressing the Jews, especially the religious ruling class, who refused to acknowledge the divinity of Jesus as the promised Redeemer.
The second half of this chapter is a revelation that the Jews of the OT had not been dealing with YHWH separate and distinct from Jesus because the YHWH of the OT was in fact Jesus.
Also a dove is not the true form of the glory of GOD - and Jesus may have been speaking metaphorically in highlighting the spiritual blindness and deafness of these religious leaders.

John 5:43 I have come in my Father's name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him.
44 How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope.
46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”

 

[lentz]

They go to heaven through faith