How could those born BC get into Heaven?

[Waggles]

They go to heaven through faith

No they do not.
Nobody goes to Heaven when they die.

 

[lentz]

No they do not.
Nobody goes to Heaven when they die.

Pardon me........they will go because of faith

 

[Waggles]

Pardon me........they will go because of faith

No they will not.

 

[lentz]

No they will not

No they will not.

Ahhhhh. You are right. Because they will inherit the promises and remain on earth in Israel.
Youre right

 

[Brother Paul]

No they will not.

To be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord. See Revelations 7

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

To be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord. See Revelations 7

Make no mistake, this is talking about afterlife, not some kind of meditation or channeling. You can't be truly "absent from the body" until you pass away.

 

[Brother Paul]

Make no mistake, this is talking about afterlife, not some kind of meditation or channeling. You can't be truly "absent from the body" until you pass away.

Yes but some were saying when a Christian passes (one who is actually born of the Spirit) that they do not go to heaven (even if that is only doe a time as some have argued). See posts 61 amd 63

 

[Hekuran]

Yes but some were saying when a Christian passes (one who is actually born of the Spirit) that they do not go to heaven (even if that is only doe a time as some have argued). See posts 61 amd 63

"Going to heaven when you die" is not language that the Bible ever uses. There are some phrases to describe the time between death and resurrection: "paradise", "Abraham's bosom", "sleep", "depart and be with Christ". It's not easy to pin down with precision exactly what the Bible authors meant by them.

When the Bible talks of resurrection, the language is much more robust. We rise from the grave, are clothed with bodies that are not subject to death or decay to reign with Christ over creation renewed.

 

[Brother Paul]

"Going to heaven when you die" is not language that the Bible ever uses. There are some phrases to describe the time between death and resurrection: "paradise", "Abraham's bosom", "sleep", "depart and be with Christ". It's not easy to pin down with precision exactly what the Bible authors meant by them.

When the Bible talks of resurrection, the language is much more robust. We rise from the grave, are clothed with bodies that are not subject to death or decay to reign with Christ over creation renewed.

Oh! Is that their argument? Well then why are the great multitude of every nation and tongue in the Throne room before His return in Revelations 7? And why does Moses appear on the mount of Transfiguration, and where was Elijah all those centuries?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Yes but some were saying when a Christian passes (one who is actually born of the Spirit) that they do not go to heaven (even if that is only doe a time as some have argued). See posts 61 amd 63

That's partially true. In biblical definition, when spirit is breathed into a body, it comes alive (Gen. 2:7). When life ends, spirit returns to God - in heaven (Father, into your hands I commit my Spirit!), while the body is buried in the grave waiting for resurrection.

 

[Hekuran]

Oh! Is that their argument? Well then why are the great multitude of every nation and tongue in the Throne room before His return in Revelations 7? And why does Moses appear on the mount of Transfiguration, and where was Elijah all those centuries?

I don't know who the "their" is in your post. My last post was my own observation, not a summary of anybody else's ideas.

If you read Revelation 7 together with chapters five and six, you'll see that John moves between locations. Like in a dream, where time number and place are not consistent in the way we expect in our everyday lives.

 

[Brother Paul]

That's partially true. In biblical definition, when spirit is breathed into a body, it comes alive (Gen. 2:7). When life ends, spirit returns to God - in heaven (Father, into your hands I commit my Spirit!), while the body is buried in the grave waiting for resurrection.

Yes! The flesh is temporal ( of the material realm)

 

[Brother Paul]

I don't know who the "their" is in your post. My last post was my own observation, not a summary of anybody else's ideas.

If you read Revelation 7 together with chapters five and six, you'll see that John moves between locations. Like in a dream, where time number and place are not consistent in the way we expect in our everyday lives.

Yes but his vision (from the Lord) is in the Throne room of heaven. This has nothing to do with how you or I see in this realm..

The "their" refers to those who do not believe that those born from above go to be with Him. If that is not you I apologize.

 

[Hekuran]

Yes but his vision (from the Lord) is in the Throne room of heaven. This has nothing to do with how you or I see in this realm..

The "their" refers to those who do not believe that those born from above go to be with Him. If that is not you I apologize.

OK. My understanding is that our ultimate hope is in the resurrection of the body. We look forward to the day when Jesus returns, the dead rise from the graves and are clothed with imperishable bodies. At the same time earth is released from its bondage from decay. We reign on earth inhabiting God's love perfectly, as intended from Genesis 1. That vision is clear and completely consistent across the books of the New Testament.

What happens the intermediary stage between death and resurrection is much less clear. "sleeping", "paradise", "Abraham's bosom". In honesty, I couldn't say what I think happens in this period with much conviction. But I'm not too concerned either: God has it all in hand, and the ulitmate hope is secure.

 

[complete]

Butch5:- Replies #45, 46, 49, 50 & 52
Complete:- Replies #33, 43, 44, 47, 48. 51. 53 & 55

Hello @Butch5,

I have been approached concerning our exchanges in the above replies, and would like to assure those who read our responses, that there is no lack of love and respect on the part of either you or myself. We just hold differing views in regard to the point at issue in those exchanges.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Brother Paul]

OK. My understanding is that our ultimate hope is in the resurrection of the body. We look forward to the day when Jesus returns, the dead rise from the graves and are clothed with imperishable bodies. At the same time earth is released from its bondage from decay. We reign on earth inhabiting God's love perfectly, as intended from Genesis 1. That vision is clear and completely consistent across the books of the New Testament.

What happens the intermediary stage between death and resurrection is much less clear. "sleeping", "paradise", "Abraham's bosom". In honesty, I couldn't say what I think happens in this period with much conviction. But I'm not too concerned either: God has it all in hand, and the ulitmate hope is secure.

I agree that our focus is the glorified bodies and that we will dwell here (at least for a time). Sleeping refers to the appearance of the body when dead, paradise and Abraham's bosom refer to the abode of the righteous dead where before the resurrection the people of faith went awaiting the resurrection. But when Jesus went to Sheol (translated Hades or Paradise) He took that group with Him to be with Him. Those of the other section (like the abode of the Rich Man) is for the unrighteous dead and allegedly they are still there in outer darkness each being a kingdom of one awaiting the 2nd resurrection after the 1000 year reign for the judgment. This is how I understand it. For can you imagine that the Lord would have woken Moses from his soul sleep? What then? Put him back? And since Elijah never dies where has he been?

 

[Hekuran]

I agree that our focus is the glorified bodies and that we will dwell here (at least for a time). Sleeping refers to the appearance of the body when dead, paradise and Abraham's bosom refer to the abode of the righteous dead where before the resurrection the people of faith went awaiting the resurrection. But when Jesus went to Sheol (translated Hades or Paradise) He took that group with Him to be with Him. Those of the other section (like the abode of the Rich Man) is for the unrighteous dead and allegedly they are still there in outer darkness each being a kingdom of one awaiting the 2nd resurrection after the 1000 year reign for the judgment. This is how I understand it. For can you imagine that the Lord would have woken Moses from his soul sleep? What then? Put him back? And since Elijah never dies where has he been?

You may well be right. I'm just not fully persuaded that this is definitely the one right way to understand all those texts, so happy to let others argue it out (on resurrection of our bodies, that's fundamental to how hope shapes our faith and witness today, so I'll argue for that as long as I have breath in my lungs). Bless you

 

[Butch5]

Butch5:- Replies #45, 46, 49, 50 & 52
Complete:- Replies #33, 43, 44, 47, 48. 51. 53 & 55

Hello @Butch5,

I have been approached concerning our exchanges in the above replies, and would like to assure those who read our responses, that there is no lack of love and respect on the part of either you or myself. We just hold differing views in regard to the point at issue in those exchanges.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris, there is no ill will on my part that's for sure.

 

[Butch5]

The idea that the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man represents what happens to the dead, is based on a false premise. That interpretation requires that man can live apart from the body. I have yet to see anyone prove this. I don't mean just in this thread, I mean anywhere. Often when the subject comes up people will say that the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man proves man lives on after death. But, that's actually a fallacy. It's Begging the Question or Circular Reasoning. One simply comes to the parable already believing that man can live apart from the body and then claims, see this proves it. However, there is nothing in the parable that claims man can live apart from the body. I'm sure we've probably all heard the joke, three men meet Saint Peter at the pearly gates and xyz. Does that prove that man can live apart from the body? No, it's a joke. It doesn't prove anything. Likewise, a parable or allegory is story used to depict some other reality.

In order to hold to the idea that man can live apart from the body, one must first prove that it is possible. Here are few questions that need answers. According to the apostle Paul the Father alone has immortality, 1 Tim 6:16. Since that is the case, then man does not have immortality. So, for him to live apart from the body he has to somehow get immortality. Since the Father is the only one who has it, we can conclude that man has to get it from the Father. We are told eternal life is the gift of God and given to believers. That begs the question, how does the wicked man get eternal life in order to live apart from the body?

Here are some more for consideration. In the parable Abraham and the Rich Man are conversing. They carry on a conversation, supposedly without bodies. That would indicate that they can communicate without a body. If that is the case, then why is it that those in a coma cannot communicate with people? What about those who have a brain injury? A brain injury should in no way affect the person's ability to communicate if it is possible to communicate without a body at all. What we see in the real world, doesn't support this idea that the dead live on apart from the body. If we combine this real world evidence with the complete lack of any Biblical evidence for the support of that claim we are forced to conclude that this idea that man lives on after death is not only not Biblical, but also not possible.

 

[Brother Paul]

You may well be right. I'm just not fully persuaded that this is definitely the one right way to understand all those texts, so happy to let others argue it out (on resurrection of our bodies, that's fundamental to how hope shapes our faith and witness today, so I'll argue for that as long as I have breath in my lungs). Bless you

Bless you as well.