If the church is “Raptured” in this generation, what are the people left still, in the “Institutionalized church”, called?

[Brother-Paul]

If this were true, then God would not be in complete control, but since he is sovereign over all it's going just as he planned. "Ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars
but let your heart be not troubled FOR THESE THINGS MUST NEEDS BE."

We must also remember that a mans enemies are those of his own household.
Could it be that the closeness is creating an environment of offenses that must be forgiven, thereby creating an environment for maturity for the few who can see it?

God is in control brother, He knows what is happening, though He doesn't want any to be lost, He knows many will be. Only those whose name is in the Book of Life and the Lamb will be saved.

Yes I agree also that a man's enemies will be in his own household, this refers to when there is a saved soul and at least one lost soul. Light against darkness.

But there are also many homes with no saved souls, I came from one. Boy didn't I know the enemies were in my household.

During the corona virus situation it has been noted, domestic abuse is up 120% and chariites are not able to reach out or cope.

There are a small number of patterns in families, all lost souls, some lost and some or just one saved, all saved. We have to consider these situations and consider scripture in context to them.

God is in control, that is why we are told in the latter days, there will be a hardening of hearts, children will be disobedient to their parents, there will be an increase in wickedness. The devil is getting desperate.

Yes we will hear of wars and rumours of wars, increase in earth quakes and pestilences etc, but I have kept to family relations and pattern of families above in reply to your second paragraph.

Shalom

 

[Brother-Paul]

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

God does not want any to be lost Dave, we agree, but we also know many will be.

John 3:18 (NIV2011)
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

 

[Brother-Paul]

When i read Rev . I do not limit my mind to the Roman Empire . As it is written to those not only of the present , but of the future .

And also if we view these words in such a narrow vision . Then where scripture states that God, is God of all Mankind , or the whole world . Then we will only see Him as God to a small region and not what the Scripture truely means. All of the World

Greetings Bill

I totally agree with your comments. I cannot see why our dear brother feels John is referring to the Roman Empire, in Revelation, when Revelation was pointing to future events.

Bless you.

 

[Sue D.]

of course people were still on earth, doesnt mean no rapture, doe not mean there is a rapture.. I lean towards a rapture and respect those who dont. I would not bet on one though

one thing is certain, even if there is a rapture or if there is not, we believers will be tested to the fullest, the events leading up to a rapture (if there is one) will test us to the fullest, we must cling to the word of God like never before, and grow as strong as possible in our walk, serving others, spreading the word, warning everyone, praying fasting.. I have such urgency on my heart now, yet piece as well, Bless you brother

Scripture Does teach that there will be a rapture --it's the matter of the Timing in relation to the 7 yr tribulation. The passage talking about two being in a field one is taken up and the other left. Or two sleeping in a bed one taken and the other left. Jesus Christ Will come in the air at some point and take His Church up to Himself -- the Church being all born again believers from all over the world.

That which makes most sense in timing is the pre-trib view point. There has to be time in heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb to take place. Some tend towards the mid-trib timing.

 

[Dave M]

Scripture Does teach that there will be a rapture

yes I lean towards pretrib for sure,,, but it is not 100% conclusive in the bible, I could also make a case for the rapture at the time of the second coming

here is a good question to ask yourself from my favorite aurthor Randy Alcorn
"If you had never heard anyone teach on the subject and you only had the Bible, would you believe there were two second comings (or two stages to a second coming) of Christ, separated by seven years, or would you believe the biblical references refer to a single second coming? "

 

[Sue D.]

In that case, though, at the time of the 2nd coming -- when is the marriage super of the Lamb supposed to take place. And there is the timing for the 144,000 to be out evangelizing the non-repentant Jews / giving them their 2nd chance. And they are the Only one's given a 2nd chance. That is what takes place down here.

 

[Dave M]

if you believe the book of revelation is in Chronological order as a lot of people do,, it does not come until later in the book chapter 19

Revelation 19:7
Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready;

 

[Sue D.]

Just found in chapter 19: 7 "......for the marriage of the Lamb has come, vs 9 "Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb."
and after that in chapter 20 talks about the 1,000 yrs reign of Christ.

 

[Dave M]

Just found in chapter 19: 7 "......for the marriage of the Lamb has come, vs 9 "Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb."
and after that in chapter 20 talks about the 1,000 yrs reign of Christ.

so do you think the book is in chronological order

 

[Sue D.]

Honestly -- I think so -- probably -- but there's a lot of stuff that has so much speculation attached to it.

chapter 6 has the 4 different horses and then a white horse is mentioned in chapter 19

A lot of activity 'bowls' and the seven seals. etc. trying to get a handle on what is happening and realizing that a lot won't be understood until it's actually happening.

And then there are those who don't take the 1,000 yrs as literal. But as one day is as a 1,000 yrs and 1,000 yrs. as a day. And according to 'them' -- the 1,000 yrs. is really only one day.

 

[Brother-Paul]

of course people were still on earth, doesnt mean no rapture, doe not mean there is a rapture.. I lean towards a rapture and respect those who dont. I would not bet on one though

one thing is certain, even if there is a rapture or if there is not, we believers will be tested to the fullest, the events leading up to a rapture (if there is one) will test us to the fullest, we must cling to the word of God like never before, and grow as strong as possible in our walk, serving others, spreading the word, warning everyone, praying fasting.. I have such urgency on my heart now, yet piece as well, Bless you brother

Greetings brother Dave

One thing is very clear to all, no matter what it is, if scriptures says something will happen, it will happen.

Timing of an event may not be clear, but we are told everything will be revealed according to its time, God's timing.

It is wonderful that you have urgency and peace in your heart brother, only the Holy Spirit can put these in our heart.

All we really have to do is... Trust in the Lord and lean not on our own understanding, accept they will happen, God said they would, and BE READY.

Bless you brother

 

[Brother-Paul]

Sue I add this from my notes, anyone can add or suggest changes to the stages of the events

Note to all: This is working on the Pre-Tribulation Rapture

RAPTURE
RAPTURE all Saved believers meet with the Lord in the air go to CURRENT HEAVEN

HOLY SPIRIT
Holy Spirit will be removed from the earth

God pours out tribulations each one gets worse - reason to get people to turn from the devil to Christ

FIRST 42 MONTHS OF TRIBULATION PERIOD

REV 6:1-2
SEAL-1 - WHITE - Anti Christ will amaze many through 'lying wonders', 'Signs' & 'Powers' made possible

REV 6:3-4
SEAL-2 - RED - Take peace from the earth People will be killing each other

REV 6:5-6
SEAL-3 - BLACK - Plagues & Famines

REV 6:7-8
SEAL 4 - PALE - Pale was named - Death & Hades - Death to 25% of world

REV 6:9-10
SEAL 5 - Souls under alter of those who were slain for God's Word - MARTYRISM

REV 6:12-17 --- REV 7:2-3
SEAL 6 - TERROR & GREAT EARTH QUAKES - Sun turned black, Moon as blood - Stars fell from the sky Every mountain & island moved -
(Rev 7:2) The 4 angels are given the power to harm the earth and the sea, but are told not to do this until God seals the bond servants "on their foreheads".

>>>> THIS WILL BE BAD <<<<<
We are told there will be a 'silence in heaven' for HALF an HOUR!

REV 8:1-5
SEAL 7 - Striking of sun, moon & stars - 1/3 of each will be darkened - sunshine will never again be as bright.
ONLY 2/3 of sun on best days. Max.

SECOND 42 MONTHS - GREAT TRIBULATION PERIOD

The Beast will be made known when the abomination that causes desolation occurs
The Beast will be empowered by satan…

The False Prophet will make people believe in the beast, or die/be-headed

POURING OUT OF 'WOES' BEGINS ON NONE BELIEVERS

REV 8:7
TRUMPET CALL 1 - hail, and fire, and blood are thrown to the earth. Possibly this is large hailstones, fiery meteors, and blood this will cause. A third of the trees, the grass, and vegetation (presumably even crops) are burned up.

REV 8:8-9
TRUMPET CALL 2 - a great mountain burning like fire is thrown into the seas. Possibly a large meteor. a Third of all living creatures in the sea are killed, a third of the ships are destroyed, and a third of the seas become blood (presumably from the meteor that kills the sea creatures, and those on the ships).ships.

REV 8:10-11
TRUMPET CALL 3 - a great star falls from heaven burning like a torch... possibly another meteor.. Possibly figurative language here. In any case, a third of the rivers become poisoned and many people die from drinking the water "because it was made bitter".

REV 8:12-13
TRUMPET CALL 4 - a third of the sun, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars are darkened. This is usually taken to mean the day will still last 24 hours, however... for a third of the normal "daytime" hours, the sun will be darkened.. perhaps even pitch black like a solar eclipse. for a third of the normal "nighttime" hours, the moon and stars with darkened, again possibly a pitch black situation.
This verse if often taken in conjunction with Matt 24:29; Mark 13:24; Luke 21:25; and Acts 2:20; Possibly Rev 6:12; also.. but this is usually taken a s a separate event.
In Rev 8:13; we see the phrase "woe, woe, woe, for the last three trumpets are about to sound".
The last three trumpets are also known as the 3 woes.

A couple of things to stop and ponder here....
If the Christians are still on the earth at this time (meaning there is no pre-trib). They will be experiencing these things. I personally believe many people will get saved during the tribulation. If the rapture has already happened, then Christians will be spared from these things.

REV 9:1-11
TRUMPET CALL 5 - WOE 1 - the locusts from the bottomless pit. Up until now, almost all of the seals and trumpets have been described in 1 or 2 verses. But it takes 11 verses to describe the locusts of the first woe. There are so many of them that the air is darkened as with smoke. They do not hurt those who have the seal of God on their foreheads... (there is speculation over whether this is all Christians, or only the 144,000 who were sealed ( Rev 7:3; Rev 14:1; ) They don't kill you, but their sting is as painful s a scorpions sting for 5 months. They do not eat grass, trees or green things as "normal" locusts do. The sting will be so bad, that men will seek death to be rid of it, but it says they will not be able to find death.
THAT'S THE FIRST WOE!
So up until now... a third of the vegetation (trees, grass and crops ) have died. A third of sea creatures (fish, whales, seals, etc...) and third of the ships are destroyed. That while they don't have exact statistics for worldwide sea traffic, the data they do have shows over 50,000 sea going vessels active at any given time (that doesn't count military operations). We have a third of the rivers poisoned. And now we have locusts/scorpions flying around stinging people. That seems like bad stuff, but if you thought those things were bad.. hold on...

REV 9:13 - 11:14
TRUMPET CALL 6 - WOE 2 - The 6th trumpet (2nd woe) -- This is the longest of the trumpets.. It starts at Rev 9-13; and continues all the way through chapter 10, and continues to Rev 11:14; A lot of things happen here. Four angels are released to kill a third of mankind. (quite a bit of mankind has already been killed in the previous trumpets). An army of 200 million horsemen are released. There is controversy over whether these are spiritual beings or whether they are a physical earthly army. Currently only India or China would be able to field an army this large. It says the power of these horsemen is in their mouths and in their tails. It says fire and brimstone comes out of their mouths. ( I can't help but picture something like a flame-thrower) Rev 9:20-21; says even though all of these things are undeniably happening, many men still will not repent. We move over to Rev chapter 10 and this second woe continues.... A strong angel who has one foot on the land, and one foot on the sea has a "little book" which is open. There is much speculation about what the foot on the land, and the foot on the sea represent. But the angels cries out in a loud voice "like a lion roaring". Then there are seven peals of thunder. The 7 loud thunders are all contained in the 6th trumpet. We aren't told what the 7 peals of thunder say, but whatever it is, it is locked up in the book. - John (who wrote the book of Revelation) says he is told to eat the book, it will be bitter in his stomach, but in his mouth it will be sweet as honey. Then John is told to prophesy some more.... We jump over to chapter 11 and we hear of the two witnesses.




>>>>>>>>>>> I am still adding to this, pressed return by mistake

 

[Brother-Paul]

GREAT TRIBULATION PERIOD (CONT.)

VIAL -1
First bowl of judgement - horrible malignant sores for those who have taken the mark of the beast

VIAL – 2
Second bowl judgement - turning sea to blood and killing every living thing in it.

VIAL – 3
Third bowl judgement - rivers and springs turning all remaining waters to blood

VIAL – 4
Forth bowl judgement - the sun will increase in power. An extra ordinary heat burning those who still reject God and His son.

VIAL – 5
Fifth bowl judgement - on the throne of the beast - New Babylon. Plunged into darknesss and causing physical pain so severe men and women will gnaw their own tounges.

VIAL – 6
Sixth bowl judgement - River Euphrates will dry up allowing leaders of east to bring their armies to Armageddon. Joel 3:9-17 prophesies 'prepare for war'

VIAL – 7
Seventh bowl judgement - lightening and thunder and other celestial calamities. Greatest earth quake in history, so great Jerusalem will split to

IT GETS EVEN WORSE - DUE TO THE REMAINING SOULS CONTINUING TO REJECT CHRIST

There is more to add and verse references to add for the second part above, this is as far as I am at present.

 

[Brother-Paul]

I missed the 3rd WOE above do to being timed out on editing!

REV 16:1-21
TRUMPET CALL 7 - WOE-3
This woe is parallel to the trumpet that sounds in Joel 2 and signals the consummation of God’s plan for the entire world.
This third woe marks the finishing of God’s judgment on sin; it occupies Rev 19, when Christ’s Kingdom is established on earth.
Incorporated within this third and final woe are the seven “bowls” of God’s wrath, described in Rev 16:1-21
This series of judgments is the worst and the greatest horror the citizens of earth have ever seen.
Jesus said, “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive” Matthew 24:22

 

[B-A-C]

A couple of things to stop and ponder here....
If the Christians are still on the earth at this time (meaning there is no pre-trib). They will be experiencing these things. I personally believe many people will get saved during the tribulation. If the rapture has already happened, then Christians will be spared from these things.

I wonder how this will happen if the Holy Spirit is removed?

 

[Brother-Paul]

I wonder how this will happen if the Holy Spirit is removed?

Greeting brother

Now that is a very interesting comment. I remain a Pre-Trib believer.

 

[B-A-C]

The Beast will be made known when the abomination that causes desolation occurs

2 Thes 2:1; Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2 Thes 2:2; that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2 Thes 2:3; Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

It seems "the day of the Lord" will not happen until the "the man of lawlessness" (the beast) is revealed. This is one of the verses I believe the beast
will be an actual human, rather than an abstract of government. (Also if the beast is thrown into the lake of fire, how do you throw an abstract of government)?

2 Thes 2:4; who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
2 Thes 2:5; Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
2 Thes 2:6; And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
2 Thes 2:7; For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

This is the telling verse. I have read many commentaries on this. Some say it is the Holy Spirit, but I don't think so. Otherwise how can people be saved?
Also, how can Christians have the power to stand for their faith on their own (willing to be beheaded because of their faith) without the Holy Spirit.
Finally how can new Christains who get saved during the tribulation be "drawn by the Spirit" or "be born of the Spirit" if there is no more Holy Spirit?

2 Thes 2:8; Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
2 Thes 2:9; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
2 Thes 2:10; and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
2 Thes 2:11; For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

 

[PloughBoy]

And sometimes I wonder, do not Christians sees this is the world future events, no matter how advanced modern technologies become, and not realize the more advanced the increase deception invades the world’s mind. No matter how many programs or solutions they dream up. It becomes like 2 steps forward and all of a sudden 5 steps backwards. With a increasing March. 5 steps forward then 12 steps backwards.

I think the Gospel of Jesus Christ in its full capacity, is to sound the “Alarm”! “Danger Will Robertson “! “Danger”! Because HE is Coming! But there is “A Way out”! And here is “The Way”!

This is the message every “born from above” child of God should have to the world!

And the message we should have for one another who speaks this message is encouragement to speak on no matter how difficult it becomes, because it will surely come to pass, for this is one of the reasons why He died on that cross and rose again to come back and set up His Kingdom on Earth like He promise to “Rule with a Iron Scepter” and His eyes, will not be Blue! Now, do I have a “witness”? You might as well say “Amen” now! If not, you will.

 

[PloughBoy]

Greeting brother

Now that is a very interesting comment. I remain a Pre-Trib believer.

The Holy Spirit will still be here, but His restraining power will be remove. You remember the power of God is everywhere.

 

[B-A-C]

I think the Gospel of Jesus Christ in its full capacity, is to sound the “Alarm”! “Danger Will Robertson “! “Danger”! Because HE is Coming! But there is “A Way out”! And here is “The Way”!

2 Pet 3:3; Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,
2 Pet 3:4; and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."
2 Pet 3:5; For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,

Are you sure the "He is coming" is the right warning? What if someone dies 'before' He comes back, then what? Do they escape? What do they escape?