Is Church Tithing an Abomination to God, or Unbiblical?

[Simon]

ARE WE THERE YET?

No, and we never will get there by continuing to support the unbiblical system of tithing income to the church.

You at least appears to admit that the tithing system is bogus, with your claims that we have to settle for the current church system, because people are not ready to offer their homes and cars, or practice hospitality.

GIVING DIRECTLY IS IMPORTANT

You give a ‘little over 10% of your income to the church’. But how much directly goes to help people in need?

Can you imagine if the church gave the hundreds of millions of dollars that it currently wastes on church buildings (empty over 6 days a week) and a pointless church staff, to directly help people you know, relatives, friends, neighbours in need. Imagine how this would change Christianity…

I don’t want a pastor visiting me in hospital because that’s their job, they’re paid to visit me! I don’t want a fake Christianity, and the world sees right through it, even if most of the church does not.

By supporting the current system you are preventing true ministry, true acts of hospitality.

Share with the Lord's people who are in need. Practice hospitality.
Rom 12:13

LETS DO BOTH

Claiming we can do both is claiming that you stay in the Catholic Church and continue to buy indulgences while Protesting the unbiblical and harmful effects of indulgences…
Follow the Lord in obedience with true giving, true acts of ministry.
Speak out against the lies of the tithe.
Those who are not ready will continue to support the church that is lying to them.
Do not enable them by joining them, winking about them and defending them, you do them no favours before God.


Simon

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

ARE WE THERE YET?

No, and we never will get there by continuing to support the unbiblical system of tithing income to the church.

You at least appears to admit that the tithing system is bogus, with your claims that we have to settle for the current church system, because people are not ready to offer their homes and cars, or practice hospitality.

GIVING DIRECTLY IS IMPORTANT

You give a ‘little over 10% of your income to the church’. But how much directly goes to help people in need?

Can you imagine if the church gave the hundreds of millions of dollars that it currently wastes on church buildings (empty over 6 days a week) and a pointless church staff, to directly help people you know, relatives, friends, neighbours in need. Imagine how this would change Christianity…

I don’t want a pastor visiting me in hospital because that’s their job, they’re paid to visit me! I don’t want a fake Christianity, and the world sees right through it, even if most of the church does not.

By supporting the current system you are preventing true ministry, true acts of hospitality.

Share with the Lord's people who are in need. Practice hospitality.
Rom 12:13

LETS DO BOTH

Claiming we can do both is claiming that you stay in the Catholic Church and continue to buy indulgences while Protesting the unbiblical and harmful effects of indulgences…
Follow the Lord in obedience with true giving, true acts of ministry.
Speak out against the lies of the tithe.
Those who are not ready will continue to support the church that is lying to them.
Do not enable them by joining them, winking about them and defending them, you do them no favours before God.


Simon

Thanks for the reply Simon.
So you seem to agree that we are not there yet, ok. Thanks for being honest and sharing that.

You bring up a good point about supporting a system that is not ideal, makes it harder to transition to the ideal system.
But my question to you, would point to the fact that you didn't answer or comment on my point regarding "Lets do both" fully.

In my analogy of the Christian Radio, although like I said some people would say it is not needed, but are you telling me that you
as intelligent as you are, cannot think of many things that can be done by believers combining their resources rather than
individual believers going solo?

Please tell me that you understand that Christianity is all about community. You do understand that right?
Down to God Himself, (the Trinity) it is all about community. So likewise as the body of Christ it is all about community.
Remember when Paul talks about the body of Christ and how each part needs each other and the analogy of the body
shows how stronger we are together.

But I think you are stuck on the word tithe. I think everyone in the discussion is comfortable with the re framing to just
talk about "supporting the ministry", because that is the purpose of tithing. But tithing have many legalistic connotations
and people of theology get stuck on words forgetting that words are meant to communicate an abstract concept of phenomenon in life.
So the part of life what I think most people are talking about is why they should give money to the church, forget about labeling
it "tithing", like I said, if you insist on sticking to that label you are just looking for an argument. Talk instead about supporting the ministry.
But then again maybe you don't want to talk about supporting the ministry because you want to make a theology point against the concept of
tithing and trying to attack all that goes along with that term. I'm not stuck on the term, but stuck on trying to talk about real life applications.

I think we do have much in common on this topic.
(1) We both seem to agree that there can be overhead in the formal church
(2) We both agree that we are not there yet as a global church to the point where the formal church doesn't feel
the need because individuals are doing the work themselves
(3) And I think we both agree that there is more to ministry than just money


I think we disagree or as still discussing
(1) Whether or not doing both works
(Your stance) Doing both keeps the bad and the good
(My stance) Yes the church(formal) has overhead, but there are somethings that
are done best when resources are combined and sometimes overhead
can be a good investment on something that has much value in the long term.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

You do make a good point Simon about not wanting someone visiting you in the hospital just because they are getting paid, or feeling fake love
or forced.

But then again I think I'm getting a sense of your background. I don't know you but it seems like you have been hurt, scarred or seem to have just a
negative view of many in the church. I would assume that you probably have left some churches in the past(I may be wrong, just a sense I'm getting)
and in your attempt to valid and affirm your stance your natural defense mechanism is to push back against the church system that you have had
negative experiences with.

I say this to say, that I believe you are making a bad stereo type. Just because maybe your pastor, or priest visits someone in the hospital because
they are getting paid, others don't . I've visiting many churches as I've traveled and I can honestly say that the pastors I know, love doing ministry
they don't do it for the money.

The money is really just to pay their gas bill, and put food on the table. The money is not a motivation to do the work because pastors don't get paid much
at all. Especially in established denomination churches where things are more structured.
The only places where pastors would make big salaries would perhaps be megachurches or some non demoninational churches. But
rich pastors is not the norm. Not at all.

So when I hear comments like people pastors are doing this for the money, I just look at myself and say people have no idea. Most pastors
don't get paid much of anything. And if they wanted money they wouldn't be in ministry because that is not where the money is. Trust
me, I work in the church, and I know. For me its similar to when I hear people talk about women in abusive relationship and they yell at the woman
and say why can't she leave and she is so stupid to stay. I think to myself, this person has no idea. They have no idea about the years of mental
trauma that woman has been through to condition her to have a low self worth. They have no idea of the fear of losing their life if they leave.
They have no idea what this women is going through in terms of financial control that the abuse is putting on her. So likewise when I hear people
talk about pastors doing this for the money, I just feel the same way, that comment shows how little one may know about the average pastor salary.

And like I said, the payment is not motivation to anything, many are doing it because they want to (most all start of that way) and the payment
is really just to sustain them so they can life.

My brother 1:Timothy 5:17-18 says,
"The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.
For Scripture says, "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages."

Also remember when Jesus sent out the disciples two by two and he told them to travel light and they were support by the little that people give based on the hospitality. That is pretty much how pastors get paid, just enough to keep the work going. I don't think anyone reads the New Testament and says the disciples was just doing it for the money, or Jesus did it just for the money. He didn't. Did they get money. Yes!!. Women poured rich expense fragrances on Jesus feet, Judas was their treasurer and they kept money. But the money was to sustain the work. So likewise pastors get paid so they too can eat and live, and wear clothes, Just like Jesus and the disciples did. So it really is a matter of the person's heart which is the motivation. But even with a greedy heart, pastors don't make enough for someone to be greedy about. Think about soldiers my friends. The basic infantry soldier gets paid, but not much at all, it is little. But just because they are getting paid, no ones says I don't want a soldier fighting for my freedom if they are getting paid. The reason we don't say that is because people don't go into the army for the money. Because they don't get paid much of anything. They do it for the passion and payment is just something that comes secondary to sustain them, keep them having a little something to have a living. I hope you are getting the point.

 

[Lanolin]

Just wondered which church are you protesting, you mention catholics and protestants a lot, are you catholic Simon cos as far as I know, lots of money is poured into the catholic church it all goes to the upkeep of the vatican...which is hideously expensive to maintain I heard...sistine chapel anyone? I think the churches that abuse the treasuries tend to be the charismatic megachurches with large numbers of people and these tend to be in america. Some of these gatherings are the size of sports stadiums with sound and light machines to match.

But the majority of local church congregations are actually NOT like that.

 

[Lanolin]

If you can be bothered reading..my eyes glazing over...if your church is operating like a mini vatican it will be in a hole. this is nothing new. This article is from 1987!

The Vatican’s finances (Fortune, 1987)

Come out of babylon and be separate.

 

[amadeus2]

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Just wondered which church are you protesting, you mention catholics and protestants a lot, are you catholic Simon cos as far as I know, lots of money is poured into the catholic church it all goes to the upkeep of the vatican...which is hideously expensive to maintain I heard...sistine chapel anyone? I think the churches that abuse the treasuries tend to be the charismatic megachurches with large numbers of people and these tend to be in america. Some of these gatherings are the size of sports stadiums with sound and light machines to match.

But the majority of local church congregations are actually NOT like that.

That would make sense if you(Simon) have attended a catholic church mostly and your perception is that churches have money, because well many catholic churches
do seem to have more money then many protestant churches. Or at least that is the perception. For example I see some Catholic churches made out
of Marble and very beautiful expensive stone, and the interior of some are very well ornamented.

A lot of the churches I know of look more like this

Compared to the Catholic churches which look more like the one below.

So if that is your experience I can honestly see why you would have that perspective
and I understand where you are coming from. Yes, our experiences shape us.

 

[Simon]

I’ve quoted more Martin Luther than any thread I’ve seen, so it would be odd if I were RC. No I’m not RC.

COMMUNITY

The focus on NT giving is helping the needy in our communities.
Again, with our current church system, about 0.5% of giving helps the needy, if they are lucky. Which reminds me, talking about not answering questions, you didn’t answer my question:

You give a ‘little over 10% of your income to the church’. But how much directly goes to help people in need?

There may be occasion to combine resources. I know someone who needed medical attention, and a number of people got together and helped pay for the procedure.

One of the problems with combining resources is that it makes the gift impersonal.
Of the hundreds of BILLIONS of dollars that Christians give every year, how much is personal?
The reasons I ask, are two-fold:

1. Impersonal giving is legalistic, dry, less fruitful, and churches even dare to exude entitlement to your money, which they spend as they see fit, which is mostly on themselves.
It causes the giver to rescind the responsibility to be the hands and feet of Christ.

2. Personal giving is targeted, more fruitful and effective, it helps people in need; it has a powerful impact on proselytizing.
The world is not impressed that you attend a mega church, the world is impressed when a neighbour hands over hard earned cash to help them, and expect nothing in return.

TITHING

Words and labels important. If you don’t think so, then you have never followed any real debates, like Pro-Choice or Pro-Life for example.
I am not stuck on the word ‘tithe’, the church is stuck on the word tithe, and the connotations of 10 percent of income to be brought into the storehouse… all very deceptive.

I think that many people in this discussion have been glad to learn that Biblical tithing was ONLY for crops and flocks, and money was not to be tithed.

This thread is about why you should not tithe, and why you should not give loads of your hard earned income to a church who will spend most of it on themselves.
Meanwhile you may give very little to needy people you know, perhaps people in your own FAMILY… I think this grieves God.

Simon

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Thanks for the response. You stated that

"0.5% of giving helps the needy" what church do you attend?
Because that is not the case in my church. In the churches I have attended,
they have church meetings and they review the budget with the members and actually
tell you how much is going to certain areas. You can even specify on your giving envelope
where you want your money allocated, general fund, missions, building upkeep, etc.
So I'm not sure if your church gives 0.5% or if you just feel comfortable pulling numbers out
of the air and you think you won't get called on it.

You asked how much of my 10% goes to people and honestly I don't know. I could guess but
that wouldn't be fair. What I do know is that this current church that I'm in is in debt at the moment,
just being transparent. They upgraded the roof after some damage and they had to take a loan. The previous
church I attended was debt free. So different churches are in different situations. What I do see is the mission
work that is being done. Though I would be deceiving you if I were to give a percentage of how much goes to the people.

But like you and I both agree there is overhead with organizations. We both agree.
My point is either have the formal or don't,if you do then support it. That is the overhead. So if you see the overhead as needed to keep it running then in essence all of it is going to help people if it is not excessive overhead.

What do I mean? So imagine buying a car, and I give you money for gas to help give people free rides. Now imagine I start asking for more money.
You start getting upset and say why am I giving you this money, it is not going for gas and not going directly to help the people, what are you doing with
the money you ask me? And I tell you I'm using the money to get an oil change, to buy new tires, to pay for my registration, etc. All you might call as overhead, but in essence it is all going to help people because without the oil change, the tires, the registration, the car can't run and the people can't get to where
they need to. So when you look at the big macro picture, is only the money for the gas helping the people? Is only the money going to buy food helping the people in a church?

What about the money spent on the building to add handicap accessible ramp for wheel chairs, or money spent on a sound equipment is that helping the people? What about money spent to manage the church website, is that helping the people? What about people spent to translate the sermon from English to Spanish to reach Spanish speaking community members, is that helping the people? What about money spent to send local church members to leadership course to develop their leadership skills, is that helping the people? I think a reasonable case can be may that all of those things which may be seen as overhead does help the people. If we don't have a formal church and we do what you suggest, fine that can work, but we do have a formal(organized) church, then either we dismantle it or support it. I'm saying people are not advocating to dismantle it, they are stilling there in the church and not helping out, and just complaining.

I think it is those who see the problem who have the burden to fix it.
What are your action steps to move towards the change that you desire my brother?
And how do you want the body of Christ to help support your plan?

 

[Simon]

So I'm not sure if your church gives 0.5% or if you just feel comfortable pulling numbers out
of the air and you think you won't get called on it.

JiL,

I did a lot of research into church budgets a number of years ago (thousands of budgets) and in the US the mode budget was approximately:

50% Church Staff (this figure was actually 49%, as if churches did not want to cross a line and spend half of the budget on salaries)
30% Church Building
10% Missions (Missionary salaries)
10% Miscellaneous expenses (not for the needy, but Sunday school materials, youth group funding etc.)
0.5% For the needy (I'm being generous)

But you won't share your own church budget? Why? Is it a secret, or does it just reinforce the above budget?
That's fine, I would love to see people share their church budgets on this thread, but for now let's just go with the thousands of US churches represented in the figures above.

I don't agree that someone who sees a problem is responsible to fix it; perhaps that's was true in the culture you come from...
Martin Luther wrote 95 criticisms of the church, but they did not include action steps to fix everything.
I have made some suggestions though:

• Ban the use of the word 'tithe' in church, unless it's used properly in it's crops and flocks context, and that most believers did not tithe.
• Speak out against the lies of the tithe, (that tithing was money for example).
• Start the NT practice of focusing on the needy, which is where most offerings went.
• Give directly to people and not through institutions.

Simon

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Thanks for the reply. I'm enjoying our conversation.

Thanks also for sharing your figures. You are right when I think about it that many churches do spend a great deal on the building
and staff salary that is true.

I was not sharing the current budget not because it is a secret my beloved brother in Christ, but because I do not know it.
So let me give names. I'm currently at Saint Marks United Methodist Church. My "work" I don't get paid, its volunteer, is that I
play in the church band as a musician. The only person that gets paid in the music ministry is the music director(s) at Saint Marks, everyone else, all of
the musicians perform for free(to my knowledge). At Saint Marks they give a total every Sunday of how much money was collected for transparency.

I have not been to a budget meeting since I've been to Saint Marks as of last year (returned when I moved to a new city).
What they do is post the total as I stated, you can see their website here Welcome and the link to
the tithes and offering totals are here from the website from last week
https://storage.googleapis.com/wzuk...PB2Oy1L/b06 25 815 and 11am service 2017.pdf

This is what they had listed on page 6 of 10
Our Tithes & Offerings (June 18, 2017)
Amount Received Last Week ……….…..$ 19,486.00
Missions Fund (Year To Date) *…….…...................................$ 22,886.00
Building Maint. Fund…(Year To Date) *…..................…........$ 16,239.00

Like I said that is not the full budget report but they have those at the meetings.

Prior to being at Saint Marks I has at Huber Memorial church. You can find their website here Home . I did not find a posting of their budget total on the website. But I did attend a budget meeting in person when I was at Huber and based on the budget report and I can't quote numbers because I don't have them, being honest, but from memory I remember that a large percentage went to missions. Huber also has their own school to help create a place where Christian education can be taught. I'm sure you are aware of all that is being taught that is unGodly in the schools. I remember from their budget meeting that about 20% or so of the income went to the school. And though the school does receive tutition, the school was not a revenue generator but more of an investment in the children, meaning they break even. The pastor stated and I agree, that it is worth the cost to have a place where Christian education can be shared. Some churches will only have a school if they can make money from it, the pastor's stance is, it is not about making money but ministry, so he is comfortable breaking even because of the lives that are being touch. Many people spend money on private school, the tuition at Huber is cheaper than many in the area, but like I said people will spend money on what is important and the church values the children and education. The pastor at Huber was very transparent about his income which was average, and he give like 30% of it back to the church. It was at this church that I took course to become debt free because the church was big on financial freedom and not being in debt. When I arrived there there were debt free. In full transparency they did take a small loan when they upgraded their building and now they expect to have that paid off in like 2-4 years.

Saint Marks is the church that I was mentioning the roof problem and they are in a lot of debt trying to pay it off, but making progress (that building fund you mentioned my brother, very expense indeed it seems).

There of course is no perfect church am I'm sure you can look at both of these and find faults in how they may or may not manage money. So if you are looking for errors you will find them because all churches are flawed, which is why I say thanks for responding to my question about your concrete suggestions.

You said:

• Ban the use of the word 'tithe' in church, unless it's used properly in it's crops and flocks context, and that most believers did not tithe.

(Interesting, it may work), the only thing my brother is when I hear the word ban it sounds very legalistic, that's all. Just being honest. I can't imagine Jesus the pastor of a church saying I'm going to "ban" this word.

• Speak out against the lies of the tithe, (that tithing was money for example).

Good point about sharing that it is more than money.

• Start the NT practice of focusing on the needy, which is where most offerings went.

I agree, I thought that was what most churches did, focus on the needy. But as you showed in your research perhaps too much is spent on the building. Notice I didn't say salary because I think people need to have an income and if someone is in full-time ministry I think it makes sense that the body of Christ support them. You have some people who do ministry part-time like me(music in the church band, no money for it) and have a full time job that is their source of income. Or course I don't have as much time to do the ministry compared to someone doing it full-time, 5 days a week like the pastor. If He or She is spending 40 hours a week doing that work like someone else at a regular job, what is the problem with paying them for it? Do you think they should do it for free for 40 hours a week and work another job also?

• Give directly to people and not through institutions.

I'll just say that institutions inherently are wasteful, I agree with that. Some can be very efficient though, but that takes conscious effort because
there is a tendency as you have rightfully noted my brother that we do have waste in the church. However I'm constantly reminder of the power of combinig resources.


So in terms of what I meant about it's the person who sees the problem who has the burden to fix it, this is what I mean:
(1) For example Women saw a problem with equal rights and they got together for solutions, of course they had male supports, but they took the initiative.
(2) African Americans saw a problem with slavery and voting rights, and Jim Crow laws, and yes Whites supported but 90% plus of the marches were composed of the African Americans who saw the problem and therefore felt the burden to fix it.
(3) Not that I agree with LGBT rights, but they saw a problem with not having what they called equal rights and they mobilized and fought for protection
(4) God. God saw a problem with sin, He didn't complain about it, He took the burden Himself and sent His Son Jesus to die for our sins.

So that is what I meant. Forgive me if it seemed as if I was blaming the victim or saying no one cares about a problem but the people who have it, that is
not what I'm saying. Hopefully the examples above can better explain what I fail to do directly.

 

[Simon]

JiL,

It sounds like you want to ban the word ‘ban”, so to make you more comfortable:
I think we should cease to use the word ‘tithe’ in church, unless it's used properly in it's crops and flocks context, and that most believers did not tithe.

Tithing wasn’t “more than money”, tithing money was banned by the scriptures; but an exception was allowed if you had to travel too far, then you could exchange the tithe for money as long as you converted it back to flocks and crops when you arrived. Deut.14:24-26

If you think tithing money and flocks/crops are interchangeable and relevant in this NT era, then I think we should also reintroduce burnt offerings……of money.

I appreciate your transparency, but the main point of interest in budgets are how much goes to directly help the needy?

Are civil rights actions comparable to church protests?
Yes, maybe.
It took a number of Martin Luther’s to get the word out about the indulgences scam, and eventually the number of people who ‘got it’ grew until they started splinter groups who protested the RC church, and they came to be called PROTESTants.

N.B. My research of several years ago found that churchs spent 50% of budget on staff regardless of if the total church budget was $100,000 or $10,000,000

Should churches be spending 50% of tithes/offerings on staff salaries?
I say no.
Find another way:
• Volunteers
• Strict budget limitations
• Ban full-time staff
• Ban paid positions

I did a quick search and found this interesting doc:

http://leadnet.org/wp-content/uploa...g_-_Churches_Spending_Less_than_35percent.pdf


Simon

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

JiL,

It sounds like you want to ban the word ‘ban”, so to make you more comfortable:
I think we should cease to use the word ‘tithe’ in church, unless it's used properly in it's crops and flocks context, and that most believers did not tithe.

Tithing wasn’t “more than money”, tithing money was banned by the scriptures; but an exception was allowed if you had to travel too far, then you could exchange the tithe for money as long as you converted it back to flocks and crops when you arrived. Deut.14:24-26

If you think tithing money and flocks/crops are interchangeable and relevant in this NT era, then I think we should also reintroduce burnt offerings……of money.

I appreciate your transparency, but the main point of interest in budgets are how much goes to directly help the needy?

Are civil rights actions comparable to church protests?
Yes, maybe.
It took a number of Martin Luther’s to get the word out about the indulgences scam, and eventually the number of people who ‘got it’ grew until they started splinter groups who protested the RC church, and they came to be called PROTESTants.

N.B. My research of several years ago found that churchs spent 50% of budget on staff regardless of if the total church budget was $100,000 or $10,000,000

Should churches be spending 50% of tithes/offerings on staff salaries?
I say no.
Find another way:
• Volunteers
• Strict budget limitations
• Ban full-time staff
• Ban paid positions

I did a quick search and found this interesting doc:

http://leadnet.org/wp-content/uploa...g_-_Churches_Spending_Less_than_35percent.pdf


Simon

Thanks for the reply Simon. Though I don't agree with the implementation necessarily I agree
with your reframing. You stated, "we should cease to use the word tithe" I agree with your reframing, compared to using the word ban.

You are right it is a matter of how much goes directly to the people, and I'm not sure what that is.

It seems to be that perhaps, and please correct me if I'm wrong (as I'm sure you will), and please don't take this in a disrespectful
way as that would not be my motive. But the perception that I'm getting is that the issue for you, is less about having to give to the
church but more about it being money. It seems that it makes you very uncomfortable because of your relationship with money maybe.

For example, what if, hypothetical, tithing had related to time instead of money. What if God had commanded people spend
1% of their time helping out the church, whether it be volunteering, or doing some other act of service. My thoughts are that you would
have less of a problem with people being asked by God, or by the church to give of their time. Remember we both agreed that we as
the people should spend out time, directly helping people(feeding sick, helping homeless, etc).

But it seems as soon as it becomes give of your money, then there is a problem. Which makes me think it is not necessarily because of the mandate to give
but because it is money. God tells us to give Love to others. Many passages, forgive me for not citing because I assume you've read them in the Bible where Jesus constantly commands us to love. So if we can be commanded to love others, which is actually harder than just giving money, then what is the problem with being commanded (if it was the case, I'm not saying Jesus commanded anyone to give) to give of one's money. Seriously think about it.

For example, going back to giving of our time. There was this one church in which people didn't have money to tithe so they give of their time(some people). For example a church may pay a private company to cut the grass, but a member who does not have the means to give much to tithe but is able to give of their time to cut the grass for the church would do so, instead of giving money they didn't have.

So what is the difference, and is there one, between John Doe giving $25 in the offering plate, and that $25 goes to paying someone to cut the church grass, and John Doe donating one hour of his time to cut the grass which would be equivalent to that $25 we would put in the offering. I see them as interchangeable, but I'm open to learn and to be instructed, and eagerly await your reply. It seems to me that though they are not the same, they are similarly interchangeable and since we live in a world where everyone is busy working their fulltime job and are not volunteering their time, as you suggest( why don't we just help the people directly), as a result they are giving their money, which is an exchange for giving of their time.

I think it hurts people to give of their money. How much does it cost to get into heaven? Well it doesn't cost anything, but it cost everything.
In the parable of the pearl, Jesus says, "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls, who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it." -Matthew 13:45-46

and in Matthew 19:21-22 it reads, "Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me. When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth."
"

Of course those parables are not saying give your money to buy your salvation. But what they are saying is that you should be willing to give whatever
God requires of us for the ministry. For some money is not the problem, it is pride, or anger, or lust. The point of the story is just that to be a follower of Christ nothing, not even money should stand in the way of doing what God requires of us.

In your defense, you could say that Jesus told the man give your possessions(directly) to the poor and He didn't say give it to the church. That argument my brother could be made.

And Maybe God does not require that we "tithe", but if he does(or did) are we as a body of Christ willing to do that? Or do we feel that we can give everything to God but our money is off limits?

For me my last question is what it is really about. We could talk all year about tithing in the OT and NT, and waste and effective stewardship, which are ALL, ALL, ALL important., but until each person individually answers that question for themselves, the rest (talking about doctrine, policies, etc) Does not matter.Each person needs to ask themselves am I willing to give whatever God requires of me for ministry (I'm not saying God requires your money). I'm just saying we all need to ask ourselves that question. If we can say, Yes I am willing to do whatever God has of me, then the rest (tithing,no tithing, etc, etc) will fall into place.

Do you agree?

 

[Simon]

JiL,

I think you are trying to insinuate that have some sort of personal hang up with giving money.
Hey, fair suspicion, but wrong. In the past I’ve given far far beyond a tenth of my gross income, for decades.
But then the Lord, ever so slowly, opened my eyes to the deception of the church.

It is the church that has a problem with her relationship with money. A self-centred relationship with money.
To deny this you would have to be competely ignorant of church budgets.
More importantly, it displays an ignorance of the church practice of distorting scripture in order to scam people out of a tenth of their income to fatten the coffers of the church, while the poor and needy are ignored.

You say, “you could say that Jesus told the man give your possessions(directly) to the poor and He didn't say give it to the church”.
I could say? What did Jesus say?
“sell your possessions and give to the poor.”
There’s no argument. It’s written plainly, the emphasis, yet again, is on the poor, not the church roof.

I have done some certifiable things for God; I mean truly committed acts.
I’ve never been one for playing church.

Are YOU willing to do whatever God has of you?
Even if it means defying the church?

Simon

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

JiL,

I think you are trying to insinuate that have some sort of personal hang up with giving money.
Hey, fair suspicion, but wrong. In the past I’ve given far far beyond a tenth of my gross income, for decades.
But then the Lord, ever so slowly, opened my eyes to the deception of the church.

It is the church that has a problem with her relationship with money. A self-centred relationship with money.
To deny this you would have to be competely ignorant of church budgets.
More importantly, it displays an ignorance of the church practice of distorting scripture in order to scam people out of a tenth of their income to fatten the coffers of the church, while the poor and needy are ignored.

You say, “you could say that Jesus told the man give your possessions(directly) to the poor and He didn't say give it to the church”.
I could say? What did Jesus say?
“sell your possessions and give to the poor.”
There’s no argument. It’s written plainly, the emphasis, yet again, is on the poor, not the church roof.

I have done some certifiable things for God; I mean truly committed acts.
I’ve never been one for playing church.

Are YOU willing to do whatever God has of you?
Even if it means defying the church?

Simon

Thanks for the reply.


You said " Are YOU willing to do whatever God has of you? Even if it means defying the church?"
My brother, Jesus is the church. We are the body of Christ. It just so happens that the body of Christ is
tangled in a lot of overhead and formal organization, You raise good points. I'm sure you will agree that the body of Christ which is the church,
is composed of the souls of those who believe in Jesus. And if that is so, then I'm sure you will agree that there are many in these churches
that are wasteful that are going to heaven. Please don't tell me you believe everyone in a wasteful church is going to hell. So what then
is there to deny my brother? Deny the church? Those individuals who are believers who make up the body of Christ, because they are
composed of the men and women doing God's WILL?

"He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.""
-Matthew 12:50

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 7:21

So I see the church as those who are doing God's will, or at least walking by faith in that direction. These are the ones who make up the church (the Body of Christ).
So to answer your question, no, I will not deny the church because I will not deny the body of Christ for which I am a part of and in denying that I'm denying Jesus.

I however will instruct, encourage, and reprove, my brothers and sisters(in the church) in love as the Holy Spirit leads so we can grow together.


You said, "I have done some certifiable things for God” I think I know what you mean but since I can't assume just be mindful.

"All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away." - Isaiah 64:6

"Therefore, as it is written: "Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord." - 1st Corinthians 1:31

"For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Ephesians 2:10


I've been guilty of phrasing it that way as well, so I'm not getting on you. I see the WORD of God phrasing it as, all the good works that we do are only the works that God Himself has already
planned for us to work in. Which is why even when we get to heaven and we get our crowns for our "good works" the elders will throw them at the feet of God because ultimately it
was all due to him, but I assume you already know this, but I've learned it is bad to assume, so please don't feel disrespected by me sharing.

"the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say: "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being." - Revelation 4:10-11

Our part is really the part of faith, believing and using our freewill to choose to follow Him.


You said, "I could say? What did Jesus say?"
Good point. Jesus said it. So what was Jesus saying my friend? We both know it. Help the poor. But I think you may be confusing the goal with the method.
The goal is to help the poor. When Jesus was speaking to that guy my brother, the church as we know it was not yet established. Remember, Jesus had not yet been crucified and risen from the dead.
The day of Pentecost had not yet happened. They did that the temple though, and Jesus did praise people for giving to the temple.

In Luke 21 it reads, "As Jesus looked up, he saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury. He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. Truly I tell you," he said, "this poor widow has put in more than all the others. All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on."

So Jesus praised her for giving, but not in a boastful way and giving out of the little she has, meaning making a sacrifice to give.
And in Acts when the church as we know it started it said, "They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need." Acts 2:45
It also says in that chapter that "Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day." Acts 2:41

Now imagine an assembly of 3,000. We would call that a mega church nowadays. With them selling all their possessions and giving to the poor. Do you think that
there was organization involved allowing for the management of the giving, or did they give directly to one-another?

Evidence points to the former. Acts 5:1-2 says, "Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property.
With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet."

That tells me that the resources, gifts, tithes, whatever you want to call it, were being collected centrally, perhaps by Peter and the other apostles
so that it could be managed. If people were bring things to the pastor's feet nowadays many will be screaming bloody murder.
So did they(early church in Acts) spend the money on a fancy church building with a fancy roof, likely not. They did give themselves
salaries from the pot, to feed their families, I don't know, perhaps not. But if not, how did they eat, remember the disciples were fisherman
and left their jobs(income) to follow Jesus.

"As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen.
"Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will send you out to fish for people." At once they left their nets and followed him". - Matthew 4:18-21

I think both our points can be pillars of truth. My point is that organization is ok in the church and not a bad thing. I believe this is true.
Your point I hear you saying is that money should not be wasted on overhead, I agree with you and believe this is true also.

So we can have organization, where people are giving freely, and giving a lot, and it can be managed effectively so there isn't that waste
this similar to how the early church with Peter operated.

 

[Simon]

Sorry for the delay. Work and family keep me a little too busy...


So to answer your question, no, I will not deny the church because I will not deny the body of Christ for which I am a part of and in denying that I'm denying Jesus.

Who said anything about denying the church?
Only you.
I said, 'you may have to defy the church'. Big difference.
Defy, like Luther defied.

When Jesus was speaking to that guy my brother...
Remember, Jesus had not yet been crucified and risen from the dead.

The problem with this logic is that 'church as we know it' was not yet established for everything Jesus said.
Are you sure you want to dilute all His words with this argument?

And in Acts when the church as we know it started it said, "They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need." Acts 2:45
…
Do you think that there was organization involved allowing for the management of the giving, or did they give directly to one-another?

Both, but did the early church only give 0.5% of the money they collected to help the poor and needy?

The purpose of collecting:
There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold
and laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need. Acts 4:34-35

When the church starts to Acts like this again, I may not need to cut out the greedy middle-man by giving directly...

Simon

 

[Simon]

I agree that money was given to the church.
Here's a scripture that makes that clear:

There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold
and laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need. Acts 4:34-35

But the did the early church only give 0.5% of the money they collected to help the poor and needy?
Because that is all the vast majority of churches are doing today...

Simon

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

I agree that money was given to the church.
Here's a scripture that makes that clear:

There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold
and laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need. Acts 4:34-35

But the did the early church only give 0.5% of the money they collected to help the poor and needy?
Because that is all the vast majority of churches are doing today...

Simon

Praying Peace comes in the midst of the busyness my brother. Yes the church or Acts has many positive for us to follow. But let us not be decieved.
They too were humans just like us. And also let us not fail to see that God is doing many many great things with the church of this age, especially
in emerging nations like African Countries and in Asia, and even in the Middle East where persecution is high. God is doing great things in our times as well.

 

[Simon]

Praying Peace comes in the midst of the busyness my brother. Yes the church or Acts has many positive for us to follow. But let us not be decieved.
They too were humans just like us. And also let us not fail to see that God is doing many many great things with the church of this age, especially
in emerging nations like African Countries and in Asia, and even in the Middle East where persecution is high. God is doing great things in our times as well.

Thank you for your prayers.

I agree, the church is fallible just as we are, yet God still sees fit to use us.

Jesus sought to correct the church by sharply pointing out her errors. But in this era I fear the outlook is not so good. As the end of the age draws near, I expect most of the church will grow increasingly cold.

Peace

Simon

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Thank you for your prayers.

I agree, the church is fallible just as we are, yet God still sees fit to use us.

Jesus sought to correct the church by sharply pointing out her errors. But in this era I fear the outlook is not so good. As the end of the age draws near, I expect most of the church will grow increasingly cold.

Peace

Simon

Agree many are already growing cold. But let us continue to speak the truth in love, and look at ourselves as well to make sure that we are not
part of the problems also. Though the ones saved will be a small few(elect) let us stand strong to be counted worthy in that number. God blessing my brother.
Praying that God will equip you in all that you need to do His work, and please pray the same for me my brother.

Peace.