Is Church Tithing an Abomination to God, or Unbiblical?

[Dave M]

Looking for examples of giving as I said sorry if you thought that was a attack I apologize blessings. I love to here stories of giving I thought you might want to share one again sorry if you thought that was a attack

 

[Simon]

Looking for examples of giving as I said sorry if you thought that was a attack I apologize blessings. I love to here stories of giving I thought you might want to share one again sorry if you thought that was a attack

Dave,

"An attack" no, more like an attempt (deliberate or not) to change the focus of the thread.
Not completely unrelated, but this thread is more about how churches are deceiving Christians that giving 10 percent of your income to the church to be spent on staff and building is in some way Biblical, it's not, nor has it ever been.
If you love stories about giving, you could start a new thread and post a couple of your own stories to get it going...

Simon

 

[Simon]

Here's more wisdom taken from Martin Luther's 95 Theses:
I think my favourite is number 45.


41. Financial offerings must be preached with caution, lest people erroneously
think that they are preferable to other good works of love.


42. Christians are to be taught that the pastors do not intend that making financial
offerings should in any way be compared with works of mercy.


43. Christians are to be taught that he who gives to the poor or lends to the
needy does a better deed than he who gives money to the church.

44. Because love grows by works of love, man thereby becomes better. Man
does not, however, become better by means of giving money to the church.


45. Christians are to be taught that he who sees a needy man and passes him
by, yet gives his money to the church, does not buy God's favour but God’s wrath.


46. Christians are to be taught that, unless they have more than they need,
they must reserve enough for their family needs and by no means squander it
on the church.

47. Christians are to be taught that giving money to the church is a matter
of free choice, not commanded.


48. Christians are to be taught that the church needs and thus desires their
devout prayer more than their money.


49. Christians are to be taught that financial offerings are useful only if
they do not put their trust in them, but very harmful if they lose their fear
of God because of them.


50. Christians are to be taught that if their pastor knew the exactions of the
tithing preachers, he would rather that the church were burned to ashes than
built up with the skin, flesh, and bones of his sheep.

 

[Carry70]

Simon,

I applaud you for having the courage to start this discussion and like you I KNOW that the tithing concept is used to deceive and obligate believers to give money that is used by church leaders to enrich themselves. It's creepy that this is going on all over the world...it's like this mass global conspiracy!

In regard to this subject I often point out what the HOLY SPIRIT and the first apostles decided concerning the law (as you will) for the new testament non-Jewish believers in acts 15:29. The only things derived from the law for the new testament Christians is that we should abstain from idolatry, adultery and we should abstain from eating blood and meat from strangled animals. That's it for what concerns the OT Law. We don't need to get circumcised neither are we obligated to pay tithes! And...because this is a decision not only made by the apostles, but as we read in acts 15, it is also the decision made by the Holy Spirit....well this means that those deceivers who are demanding tithes are sinning primarily against the HOLY SPIRIT!!! That's why they never admit their wrong doings!

Then there is another point to make; most people react by 'how then should the salaries of the pastors be paid?'. This is the WRONG question to ask!!! The question we need to ask should be as follows; did God intend our ministry to be our job as in 'something we do to earn money?'??? This is the RIGHT question, because in acts we read that Paul and his helpers made tents and then sold them to provide in their own needs. They never demanded, cursed, scared off or begged their congregation to give them money to provide in their own needs and wants.

 

[Simon]

Simon,

I applaud you for having the courage to start this discussion and like you I KNOW that the tithing concept is used to deceive and obligate believers to give money that is used by church leaders to enrich themselves. It's creepy that this is going on all over the world...it's like this mass global conspiracy!

In regard to this subject I often point out what the HOLY SPIRIT and the first apostles decided concerning the law (as you will) for the new testament non-Jewish believers in acts 15:29. The only things derived from the law for the new testament Christians is that we should abstain from idolatry, adultery and we should abstain from eating blood and meat from strangled animals. That's it for what concerns the OT Law. We don't need to get circumcised neither are we obligated to pay tithes! And...because this is a decision not only made by the apostles, but as we read in acts 15, it is also the decision made by the Holy Spirit....well this means that those deceivers who are demanding tithes are sinning primarily against the HOLY SPIRIT!!! That's why they never admit their wrong doings!

Then there is another point to make; most people react by 'how then should the salaries of the pastors be paid?'. This is the WRONG question to ask!!! The question we need to ask should be as follows; did God intend our ministry to be our job as in 'something we do to earn money?'??? This is the RIGHT question, because in acts we read that Paul and his helpers made tents and then sold them to provide in their own needs. They never demanded, cursed, scared off or begged their congregation to give them money to provide in their own needs and wants.

The above is an insightful and intelligent post.

You are right to point out the Apostle Paul earned his own living.
Paul was a church leader of higher rank than the Pope, and he set an example to others who would lead in the church.
Can anyone imagine the Pope having a normal job?

The church was never intended to centre around a building and a Priestly class.
Jesus did away with the Priestly class, we are now ALL priests, and most church buildings are pointless vanity.
Even today, the churches we admire, like the first century church or the persecuted church in China, had no buildings or full time pastors...

Simon

 

[Dave M]

Luke 8:3
Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Herod's business manager; Susanna; and many others who were contributing from their own resources to support Jesus and his disciples.

 

[Simon]

Luke 8:3
Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Herod's business manager; Susanna; and many others who were contributing from their own resources to support Jesus and his disciples.

More sensible translations don't use the word support, but they certainly helped Jesus and his disciples. Which I applaud.
Jesus was in full-time ministry for 3 years, out of 33, or 10 percent.
He worked a full-time job the rest. Even the son of God worked a secular job to provide for Himself and his family. Except for 3 years, where indications are that he only had enough for each day, and was likely despised as poor.

Simon.

.

 

[Dave M]

Jesus sent out his disciples and told them to take nothing with them and to rely on the support of the people in the town

Mark 6
He charged them to take nothing for their journey except a staff—no bread, no bag, no money in their belts 9 and to wear sandals, but not a second tunic.10And He told them, “When you enter a house, stay there until you leave that town.If anyone will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that place, as a testimony against them.

So it is clear Jesus sets a example those who are spreading the Gospel should be supported, this is there job, this is not a part time gig, they to deserve to eat. Jesus and his disciples did not work when he was spreading the Gospel he relied on the kindness of others.

 

[Dave M]

Corinthians 9:14
14 In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel

We pay people to prepare and serve our physical food; shouldn’t we also be willing to pay those who see to our spiritual food? And, honestly, which is more important—physical food or spiritual food—based on Matthew 4:4?

First Timothy 5:17–18 says, “The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, ‘Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,’ and ‘The worker deserves his wages.’” There are several points made in this passage. Church elders should be honored, and this honor includes wages. Those elders who serve the church well—especially teachers and preachers—should receive double honor. They have earned it. It would be cruel to work an ox while denying it grain, and we should take care not to treat our pastors cruelly. Let them share in the material blessings of the congregation they serve. Our pastors are worth more than many oxen.

There is nothing spiritual about making a pastor “suffer for the Lord.” Yes, a pastor has been divinely called to his ministry, but it does not follow that a congregation should say, “Let God take care of him.” God says the local church is responsible to take care of him and his family. Caring for the spiritual needs of a congregation is an important work—probably more important than other things we normally spend money on, such as meeting our physical needs, maintaining our vehicles, and entertaining ourselves. See 1 Corinthians 9:7.

It is true that the apostle Paul supported himself as he ministered in Corinth (1 Corinthians 9:12). He drew no salary from the Corinthians. But he made it clear that he did this as a voluntary sacrifice on their behalf, “that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make full use of my rights as a preacher of the gospel” (verse 18). Paul did take wages from other churches (2 Corinthians 11:8). His arrangement in Corinth was the exception, not the rule.

Sometimes a church is just not able to provide sufficient finances for a pastor. The pastor in such cases is forced to be bi-vocational, having no choice but to work outside the church to support his family. This is regrettable but sometimes necessary. It is usually better for a pastor to be paid full-time so he can fully dedicate himself to the Lord’s work of ministering to and shepherding the congregation God has entrusted to him

Should pastors be paid a salary?

 

[Dave M]

just in case you missed it


Corinthians 9:14
14 In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel

AMEN !!

 

[Hekuran]

Here's more wisdom taken from Martin Luther's 95 Theses:
I think my favourite is number 45.


41. Financial offerings must be preached with caution, lest people erroneously
think that they are preferable to other good works of love.


42. Christians are to be taught that the pastors do not intend that making financial
offerings should in any way be compared with works of mercy.


43. Christians are to be taught that he who gives to the poor or lends to the
needy does a better deed than he who gives money to the church.

44. Because love grows by works of love, man thereby becomes better. Man
does not, however, become better by means of giving money to the church.


45. Christians are to be taught that he who sees a needy man and passes him
by, yet gives his money to the church, does not buy God's favour but God’s wrath.


46. Christians are to be taught that, unless they have more than they need,
they must reserve enough for their family needs and by no means squander it
on the church.

47. Christians are to be taught that giving money to the church is a matter
of free choice, not commanded.


48. Christians are to be taught that the church needs and thus desires their
devout prayer more than their money.


49. Christians are to be taught that financial offerings are useful only if
they do not put their trust in them, but very harmful if they lose their fear
of God because of them.


50. Christians are to be taught that if their pastor knew the exactions of the
tithing preachers, he would rather that the church were burned to ashes than
built up with the skin, flesh, and bones of his sheep.

Worth pointing out that Luther's 95 Theses attacked the corrupt use of indulgences by the church, not tithes?

 

[Simon]

just in case you missed it
Corinthians 9:14
14 In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel

As I've already said, I applaud the support of true ministers of the gospel.

I object to:
Supporting a full time staff, where 50% of funds raised go to salaries
Supporting a building, where 30% of funds raised go to a mostly empty building, or a bank mortgage
Supporting 'ministries' that fleece the flock, while the leaders take huge six figure incomes from those minisitries

As you already pointed out:
He charged them to take nothing for their journey except a staff—no bread, no bag, no money in their belts
Yet some preachers even attempt to justify luxury cars, mansions, and even private jets.

But show me where ANYONE in the New Testament church who was supported by TITHES?

Simon

 

[Simon]

Worth pointing out that Luther's 95 Theses attacked the corrupt use of indulgences by the church, not tithes?

You are absolutely right.
Tithes are the new indulgences.
We PROTESTants, our forebears, were outraged by how the Roman Catholic church was using indulgences to fleece the flock.
Now the Protestant church is doing the same thing, but we're now calling it tithes, instead of indulgences.
There's nothing new under the sun...

But where's the outrage now?

Simon

 

[KingJ]

There has been outrage to abuse of tithing. Many denominational and interdenominational views on this. If you go to a church that hammers tithing, you have chosen that church because you like the message. Birds of a feather. It is like saying 'where is the outrage to speaking to the dead'.

It is good that you have studied this subject, but this is one subject that I don't feel has to be studied. It should be obvious to support a full time minister. Grasp abuse of power. Grasp vanity.

 

[Lanolin]

Well some of us neither protestants nor catholics so yea I would agree both kinds of moneymaking ventures have no place in Jesus church...if thats the case, fellowship elsewhere. God asks for all of us, not our money and Jesus never asked his followers to be taxcollectors.

Not sure what you can do about it as posting theses to church doors may not work in this day and age. Even Jesus couldnt stop Judas from stealing but he knew what Judas was doing,

1 timothy 6 has advice, we are to withdraw ourselves from such people, And charge those who are rich in this world not to be highminded but to trust in God..cos where would they be without their wealth? If they are wealthy they must distribute their abundance to others who have nothing. Rich people can be the most stingy, mean people you ever meet. Ive known some who would cremate their own family members simply cos its cheaper.

 

[B-A-C]

There is a LOT of misinformation on this thread. So many incorrect assumptions are made it's hard to now where to begin.

1. Tithing was NOT a part of the old testament law.
The "law" started with Moses. Tithing started with Abraham and Melchizedek.

Heb 7:2; to whom also Abraham apportioned a tenth part of all the spoils, was first of all, by the translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then also king of Salem, which is king of peace.

Heb 7:6; But the one whose genealogy is not traced from them collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed the one who had the promises.

Heb 7:8; In this case mortal men receive tithes, but in that case one receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives on.
Heb 7:9; And, so to speak, through Abraham even Levi, who received tithes, paid tithes,

For those who don't know.. Abraham was alive more than 400 years before Moses was given the law. Tithing has nothing to do with
the old testament Mosaic covenant. Tithing isn't a part of "the law". So the excuse about we are no longer under the law doiesn't
apply to tithing.

2. Indulgences are not tithing. Martin Luther was used mightily by God to be a part of the reformation. But Luther isn't God
and the 95 thesis isn't the Bible. All that aside, indulgences is money given to the (Roman Catholic) church to "pay" for sins.
(Apparently Jesus didn't do a good enough job in paying for your sins). If you did a bad sin, you can give the church enough money
and they will forgive you. (I guess Jesus forgiving you isn't good enough). Tithes are for a different purpose. This is what the pastor and
his family lives on. This is his income. This is also what pays the rent on the building, the electric bill, the water bill, etc...
Pastors themselves have to tithe. Just as the Levites had to pay tithes from their income (Heb 7:9; )

3. Tithing isn't talked about in the new testament. - this is just wrong. First of all we have Abraham and Melchizedek talked about in Hebrews 7.
Now of course Abraham was alive in the old testament, before Moses... so why would God take the time to talk about tithing in the new testament?
It has to be there for a reason.

Jesus had a conversation with the Pharisees about tithing...

Matt 23:23; "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

Jesus wasn't condemning them for tithing, He was condemning them because even though they tithed, they were neglecting the more important parts
of the law (the weightier provisions). Jesus says "these are the things you SHOULD have done.... without neglecting to do the other things".

Luke 11:42; "But woe to you Pharisees! For you pay tithe of mint and rue and every kind of garden herb, and yet disregard justice and the love of God; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

Jesus also talks about giving with pride, vs giving with humility in the story of the praying Pharisee and the praying tax collector.

Luke 18:12; 'I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.'

Jesus doesn't say don't pay them, he says don't brag about it.

Also in three of the gospels the story about "testing" Jesus about tithing and taxes is told.

Matt 22:21; They *said to Him, "Caesar's." Then He *said to them, "Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."
Mark 12:17; And Jesus said to them, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." And they were amazed at Him.
Luke 20:25; And He said to them, "Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."

We have to pay taxes. We have no choice. But Jesus seems to support this. In addition to taxes... we need to give to God.. "what is God's".
Apparently part of our income belongs to God. It already belongs to God.. we are just giving back "what is God's".

Mark 12:41; And He sat down opposite the treasury, and began observing how the people were putting money into the treasury; and many rich people were putting in large sums.
Mark 12:42; A poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which amount to a cent.
Mark 12:43; Calling His disciples to Him, He said to them, "Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all the contributors to the treasury;
Mark 12:44; for they all put in out of their surplus, but she, out of her poverty, put in all she owned, all she had to live on."

Did Jesus say that the widows giving was an "abomination" or was he praising her for doing this?

Luke 21:1; And He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury.
Luke 21:2; And He saw a poor widow putting in two small copper coins.
Luke 21:3; And He said, "Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all of them;
Luke 21:4; for they all out of their surplus put into the offering; but she out of her poverty put in all that she had to live on."

I will take a passage from the old testament here, but bear with me for a second. I'll get to how this works with the new testament.

Mal 3:8; "Will a man rob God? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, 'How have we robbed You?' In tithes and offerings.
Mal 3:9; "You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing Me, the whole nation of you!
Mal 3:10; "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this," says the LORD of hosts, "if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows.
Mal 3:11; "Then I will rebuke the devourer for you, so that it will not destroy the fruits of the ground; nor will your vine in the field cast its grapes," says the LORD of hosts.
Mal 3:12; "All the nations will call you blessed, for you shall be a delightful land," says the LORD of hosts.

Now we could get legalistic here and say this is under the old testament law (we already covered that, it wasn't part of the law) but even if it was,
this isn't only a chance for us to give to God... it's a chance for Him to give to us!! That's the part some people miss. God says "test me" in this.
It's the only place in the Bible God says that. He says "see if I don't open the heavens and pour out the blessing upon you"!!.. "until it overflows"!!

Now we may not "have" to tithe, but there are blessings we are missing if we don't. The idea of sowing and reaping doesn't go away in the new testament.

2 Cor 9:6; Now this I say, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully.
2 Cor 9:7; Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
2 Cor 9:8; And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed;

If we give (God loves a cheerful giver). God will bless us. He is able "to make all grace abound to you". We can always have all sufficiency in everything!
We can have an abumdance for every good deed! But this is ONLY if we "give bountifully".

Luke 6:38; "Give, and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure—pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return."

God wants to bless us. But we need to give in order to be blessed. We don't need the spirit on selfishness telling us to hoard our money and keep it
from the church. Yes the Roman Catholic church took advantage of this.. (probably some protestant churches also) OK fine... go to a different church,
no one is stopping you.

 

[Simon]

There has been outrage to abuse of tithing.

I have never heard of an anti-tithing message preached from a pulpit.
Show me the outrage, show me an anti-tithing message preached from a pulpit and I will show you 100 pro-tithing messages preached from a pulpit.

Simon

 

[Simon]

Well some of us neither protestants nor catholics so yea I would agree both kinds of moneymaking ventures have no place in Jesus church...

Not sure what you can do about it as posting theses to church doors may not work in this day and age.

I meant in the sense that we all belong to one of the three main branches of the church:
Roman Catholic
Eastern Orthodox
Protestant

If you are not RC or EO, then you likely belong to a Church that is a result of the Protestant reformation of the 16th century.

The internet is the new church door...

Simon

 

[Bendito]

I meant in the sense that we all belong to one of the three main branches of the church:
Roman Catholic
Eastern Orthodox
Protestant

If you are not RC or EO, then you likely belong to a Church that is a result of the Protestant reformation of the 16th century.

The internet is the new church door...

Simon

I wonder why we're still discussing this. Its been chewed to glop already. Over and over

 

[Simon]

I wonder why we're still discussing this. Its been chewed to glop already. Over and over

Bendito,
Drawing on your previous wisdom:
If you don't want to discuss then don't. God wants a cheerful participant.

If you don't want to tithe then don't. God wants a cheerful giver.