Is Church Tithing an Abomination to God, or Unbiblical?
Lanolin
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Lol there was nobody in nz in the 16th century.
The churches that first came here were methodists or wesleyans I believe and they didnt actually come of the protestant tradition. The anglicans came (english) and also rcc (irish) but actually the truly born again believers were not part of those churches, the denoms only spread their brand of religion, not the gospel.
As far as I know baptists are not part of protestant tradition either, they are separate. If you look at what the baptists believe, most people would see how very different they are to traditional churches that place tradition first and scripture second.
There are very few lutheran churches here, and few eastern orthodox. Luthers church is actually the protestant church, but the catholics just labelled everything that came after that was not theirs protestant. However luther still identified with other practices the rcc church did that were not according to scripture.
Christians generally in their daily walk dont identify the denom church as their first identity..they are christians, followers of Jesus first, not whatever denom they happen to be. There are warnings in the bible about pride in denoms. If this is you, drop it.
The churches that first came here were methodists or wesleyans I believe and they didnt actually come of the protestant tradition. The anglicans came (english) and also rcc (irish) but actually the truly born again believers were not part of those churches, the denoms only spread their brand of religion, not the gospel.
As far as I know baptists are not part of protestant tradition either, they are separate. If you look at what the baptists believe, most people would see how very different they are to traditional churches that place tradition first and scripture second.
There are very few lutheran churches here, and few eastern orthodox. Luthers church is actually the protestant church, but the catholics just labelled everything that came after that was not theirs protestant. However luther still identified with other practices the rcc church did that were not according to scripture.
Christians generally in their daily walk dont identify the denom church as their first identity..they are christians, followers of Jesus first, not whatever denom they happen to be. There are warnings in the bible about pride in denoms. If this is you, drop it.
Lanolin
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Contend for the faith once delivered to the saints.
But you cant contend here on TJ because TJ doesnt collect tithes.
What you need to do is send email notifications to those greedy pastors to stop fleecing the flock. And pulp every rick warren purpose drivel book.
But you cant contend here on TJ because TJ doesnt collect tithes.
What you need to do is send email notifications to those greedy pastors to stop fleecing the flock. And pulp every rick warren purpose drivel book.
Simon
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INDULGENCES
Roman Catholics did not purchase indulgences to pay for sin (a common Protestant claim).
Indulgences were only to purchase the removal of consequences for sins already forgiven, or to remove God's WRATH in this life.
David was forgiven, but was to suffer consequences:
2Sa 12:13 David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die.
2Sa 12:14 Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD...
Tithes are promoted in a similar way.
Tithes do not purchase forgiveness of sin, but we are told that you rob God and are cursed (under God's WRATH) if you don't tithe.
Simon
Roman Catholics did not purchase indulgences to pay for sin (a common Protestant claim).
Indulgences were only to purchase the removal of consequences for sins already forgiven, or to remove God's WRATH in this life.
David was forgiven, but was to suffer consequences:
2Sa 12:13 David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die.
2Sa 12:14 Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD...
Tithes are promoted in a similar way.
Tithes do not purchase forgiveness of sin, but we are told that you rob God and are cursed (under God's WRATH) if you don't tithe.
Simon
Lanolin
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If a pastor or preacher is twisting scripture in that way..and yes Ive heard that one in a few different churches..don't go back there. If they are being a wolf in sheeps clothing, sound a warning, but Gods wrath and condemnation will be on those false shepherds who are just hired hands and dont care for the flock. We know what they are doing.
Look Jesus had to contend with Judas stealing out of the treasury.
Judas sold Jesus out for thirty pieces of silver.
Anais and sapphira lied about how they were giving to the church. They kept it for themselves. They were struck down dead. God knows if someone has a stingy mean heart!
Back in the OT naboth had a heart attack and died for not sharing his feast with david.
Anyway, am just saying if you going to protest or be a contestant and say something direct it to the perpatrators. I dont think there are any preachers here on TJ that beg for money in this way and make out if you givng them money you are giving God money cos you HAVE to pay Him but if so they ought to be ashamed. God provides all our needs, he doesnt need our money or even our sacrifice as Jesus already paid it on full we only have to ask Him.
Give with a cheerful heart thats all that is required.
Look Jesus had to contend with Judas stealing out of the treasury.
Judas sold Jesus out for thirty pieces of silver.
Anais and sapphira lied about how they were giving to the church. They kept it for themselves. They were struck down dead. God knows if someone has a stingy mean heart!
Back in the OT naboth had a heart attack and died for not sharing his feast with david.
Anyway, am just saying if you going to protest or be a contestant and say something direct it to the perpatrators. I dont think there are any preachers here on TJ that beg for money in this way and make out if you givng them money you are giving God money cos you HAVE to pay Him but if so they ought to be ashamed. God provides all our needs, he doesnt need our money or even our sacrifice as Jesus already paid it on full we only have to ask Him.
Give with a cheerful heart thats all that is required.
Carry70
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Paul never used his ministry to earn money; he worked a day job making tents and he was proud that he didn't have to beg for money or to be depended on the kindness of people for financial support. Moreover only ONE (1) church ever gave some financial support to Paul.
1. Paul was proud that he never demanded money from the churches.
Nowadays, so called, preachers are shameless in their pursuit of money.
(Ampl Bible) Acts 20:
33 I had no desire for anyone’s silver or gold or [expensive] clothes. 34 You know personally that these hands ministered to my own needs [working in manual labor] and to [those of] the people who were with me. 35 In everything I showed you [by example] that by working hard in this way you must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He Himself said, ‘It is more blessed [and brings greater joy] to give than to receive.’”
The Apostle Paul’s Income: Four Reasons Why Paul Worked a Day Job
Instead of clinging to the principle “the laborer deserves to be paid,” Paul was thinking, “How can I be most effective?” And specifically, Paul pondered this question: “Is it most effective to preach for free or for pay?” Much of the time, Paul conscientiously chose to preach for free. And that meant, Paul had to work a day job. Fortunately, since Paul was trained by the ancient rabbis who believed in teaching the Torah out of love and not for profit, Paul was skilled in a trade and that trade was tentmaking (Acts 18:1–3). (The actual Greek word translated “tentmakers” in Acts 18:3 could be applied to any type of leather worker.)
For Paul, earning money through manual labor wasn’t a second-tier way to make a living. Instead, Paul’s statements display a certain pride in his hardworking lifestyle:
For you remember, brothers, our labor and toil: we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you, while we proclaimed to you the gospel of God (1 Thess. 2:9).
For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone’s bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you (2 Thess. 3:7–8).
2. Only one (1) church supported Paul now and then.
To begin with, Paul believed in material compensation for spiritual work. He writes,
And you Philippians yourselves know that in the beginning of the gospel, when I left Macedonia, no church entered into partnership with me in giving and receiving, except you only. Even in Thessalonica you sent me help for my needs once and again . . . I have received full payment, and more. I am well supplied, having received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent (Phil. 4:15–18).
Paul’s Refusal of Material Compensation
Unfortunately, Paul proceeds to complicate that simple conclusion. Immediately after acknowledging his right to receive compensation from the Corinthians, Paul states,
Nevertheless, we have not made use of this right, but we endure anything rather than put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ . . . I have made no use of any of these rights, nor am I writing these things to secure any such provision . . . What then is my reward? That in my preaching I may present the gospel free of charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel (1 Cor. 9:15–18).
1. Paul was proud that he never demanded money from the churches.
Nowadays, so called, preachers are shameless in their pursuit of money.
(Ampl Bible) Acts 20:
33 I had no desire for anyone’s silver or gold or [expensive] clothes. 34 You know personally that these hands ministered to my own needs [working in manual labor] and to [those of] the people who were with me. 35 In everything I showed you [by example] that by working hard in this way you must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He Himself said, ‘It is more blessed [and brings greater joy] to give than to receive.’”
The Apostle Paul’s Income: Four Reasons Why Paul Worked a Day Job
Instead of clinging to the principle “the laborer deserves to be paid,” Paul was thinking, “How can I be most effective?” And specifically, Paul pondered this question: “Is it most effective to preach for free or for pay?” Much of the time, Paul conscientiously chose to preach for free. And that meant, Paul had to work a day job. Fortunately, since Paul was trained by the ancient rabbis who believed in teaching the Torah out of love and not for profit, Paul was skilled in a trade and that trade was tentmaking (Acts 18:1–3). (The actual Greek word translated “tentmakers” in Acts 18:3 could be applied to any type of leather worker.)
For Paul, earning money through manual labor wasn’t a second-tier way to make a living. Instead, Paul’s statements display a certain pride in his hardworking lifestyle:
For you remember, brothers, our labor and toil: we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you, while we proclaimed to you the gospel of God (1 Thess. 2:9).
For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone’s bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you (2 Thess. 3:7–8).
2. Only one (1) church supported Paul now and then.
To begin with, Paul believed in material compensation for spiritual work. He writes,
- “If we have sown spiritual things among you, is it too much if we reap material things from you?” (1 Cor. 9:11, ESV),
- “the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel” (1 Cor. 9:14), and,
- “One who is taught the word must share all good things with the one who teaches” (Gal. 6:6).
And you Philippians yourselves know that in the beginning of the gospel, when I left Macedonia, no church entered into partnership with me in giving and receiving, except you only. Even in Thessalonica you sent me help for my needs once and again . . . I have received full payment, and more. I am well supplied, having received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent (Phil. 4:15–18).
Paul’s Refusal of Material Compensation
Unfortunately, Paul proceeds to complicate that simple conclusion. Immediately after acknowledging his right to receive compensation from the Corinthians, Paul states,
Nevertheless, we have not made use of this right, but we endure anything rather than put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ . . . I have made no use of any of these rights, nor am I writing these things to secure any such provision . . . What then is my reward? That in my preaching I may present the gospel free of charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel (1 Cor. 9:15–18).
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Bendito
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Simon
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Tithing is in the LAW:
I am shocked that you would even attempt to state this, in caps no less!
Brief lesson on the law:
There are two great commandments.
Then there are the ten commandments, five are about loving God, five are about loving your neighbor (they are drawn from the two and give us more instruction).
Then there are 613 Old Testament written laws, which are a further outworking of the 10 commandments.
Of the 613 OT laws, a quick look identifies several dozen of the 613 directly address tithing.
Then there's the oral tradition that is not necessarily Biblical.
ABRAHAM only tithed once in his lifetime, and it wasnlt on his income or wealth..
Abraham gave 10% of the spoils of a single battle to MelchizedeK.
He did not give 10% of his income, he did not give 10% of his assets or wealth, he only gave 10% of the spoils of a single battle.
This was a one time event, with no other recorded tithe.
By the way, Abraham gave the other 90% to pagan king, the King of Sodom.
Even Jesus called tithing a part of the law:
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness.
These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others"
Please note: They tithed according to the law, CROPS ONLY, their herb gardens.
Simon
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Indulgences were never meant to pay for sin.
Please looks this up as it's well known and well recorded.
Indulgences were to help to you in this life, by paying for the consequences of forgiven sin.
Tithes are the new indulgences.
Tithing is touted to bless you in this life, and the Protestant priests say 'you are under a curse if you don't tithe'.
The Protestant church is doing the same thing as Luther criticized the Roman Catholics for, but we're now calling it tithes, instead of indulgences.
I guess the blessings provided to you by Jesus isn't good enough; now you have to tithe to earn His blessing.
Simon
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The caps aren't mine. The NASB Bible always capitalizes words that are a quote from the old testament.
Jesus_is_LORD
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Great discussion my brothers and sisters in Christ.
If I may add to the discussion.
In terms of tithing, in my relationship with God through Jesus and my knowledge of the WORD of God this
is what is revealed to me. Let me know your thoughts me fellow beloved of the most high King(Jesus).
(1) Look to Jesus
So as Christians we follow Jesus as an example. This means more than just doing what
Jesus did, but knowing why He did it. So for example, Jesus ate and drink with sinners( I know we are all sinners)
and some people use this as a reason to excuse being in questionable party environments. But they don't ask themselves, why did
Jesus associate in such situations. Was it to show love to the people or gratify his flesh through the pleasure of this world?
Likewise when it comes to tithing I think we need to look to Jesus. I first will like to take the liberty to not use
the word tithing. I think certain words have so much connotation and baggage associated with it, that no matter
how you explain something, people will never accept it because of the psychological history they have with that word.
So instead of focusing on tithing, I'm going to be talking about the concept of giving money to the church to support the ministry.
So when you reply, don't reply about "tithing", reply to this post about "giving money to the church to support the ministry."
When we define it that way, we see that this concept is totally fine.
I'm not speaking of giving money because you feel God will be mad if you don't or because you feel forced, but because you want to
or feel the need. I have no problem with people doing certain actions out of duty, if they recognize the importance even if their heart
is not fully in it. For example, a husband may not get great joy from going to work, but he might feel a sense of duty to taking care of
his family, and feel a sense of , "this is what I need to do."
If a man can provide for his family, why can't we as Christians provide for our family. When they came to Jesus saying your family is looking
for you, Jesus said, who is my family(mother and brother, etc) but they who do the will of God. Don't we refer to ourselves as the body or family
of Christ? If so, why do we get so defensive when it comes to taking care of the family of God the church? If we Christians are not going to support our
own family, allowing for funds for the ministry or for the payment of the pastor's salary, who do we think will do it. Do we expect God to drop money
from the sky to fund the ministry?
Remember in the days of Acts, the church (body of Christ) brought all that they had and it was shared with the community. There was a sense of oneness.
I think in our individualistic society that we live in, where people see things as this is "my money" or "my property" they are more questioning and discriminating
about giving money to the church. They don't feel as connected and they don't see a responsibility to support the work of God, which is really their work if they truly are part of the church.
I know when I mention that people quickly respond with talks about how the church is mismanaging funds, and how a pastor is driving a BMW, etc.
All of which I believe may have some merit but are just surface reasons as to why they don't want to part with "their money." Giving to God is an investment in the kingdom, remember the parable of the talents and the one who wanted to hold unto what He had was punished by God. Those who speak about
mis-managing funds in the church need to answer this sober question. Ask yourself does your government mismanage funds? Does your tax payer money go towards things such as abortion, war, ear marks, and other wasteful projects that you disagree with? Obviously yes, but when was the last time you didn't pay your taxes because you felt your money was being wasted? Most people pay their taxes regardless because the government needs to run, likewise, lets stop lying to ourselves about I don't want to give to the church because the pastor drives a nice car, do your part and let God do his.
So my thoughts are first remove the "tithing" label, too many connotations and barriers that people have when they hear that word.
Remember even Jesus collected money himself to fund the ministry, remember Judas was their treasurer. And Jesus even complimented the poor
widow for putting into the church treasury, stating the widow give more than all because she give from her abundance of nothing.
So looking at Jesus we see that there is nothing wrong, it is actually encourage, to give to the ministry of the family of God. We should do so cheerfully, and if your heart is not there then just don't give and don't feel guilty about it. Don't feel forced, Annanias and his wife felt forced to give, which is why they lied and were struck dead. It would have been better for them just to say, we don't want to give this instead of acting of fear and lying about it.
So give to the ministry of God. It is your ministry, but do so cheerfully or not at all, and don't feel guilt. Just let the Holy Spirit lead. Those who have the relationship with Jesus and see the value will do so. I find if funny how many will spend like $10 on a movie, or $50 on a video game, or $500 on a vacation,
but when you ask them about putting that same amount to the church, here comes all the excuses as to why the church doesn't need your money. No let's be honest, you are not giving because you don't see the value. Jesus reminded us that where your treasure is your heart will be also, so the sobering fact is many don't have their heart in the work of God and therefore find it difficult to put their treasure(money) there as well.
**Remember I'm not talking about "tithing", but just giving to support the ministry of God**
If I may add to the discussion.
In terms of tithing, in my relationship with God through Jesus and my knowledge of the WORD of God this
is what is revealed to me. Let me know your thoughts me fellow beloved of the most high King(Jesus).
(1) Look to Jesus
So as Christians we follow Jesus as an example. This means more than just doing what
Jesus did, but knowing why He did it. So for example, Jesus ate and drink with sinners( I know we are all sinners)
and some people use this as a reason to excuse being in questionable party environments. But they don't ask themselves, why did
Jesus associate in such situations. Was it to show love to the people or gratify his flesh through the pleasure of this world?
Likewise when it comes to tithing I think we need to look to Jesus. I first will like to take the liberty to not use
the word tithing. I think certain words have so much connotation and baggage associated with it, that no matter
how you explain something, people will never accept it because of the psychological history they have with that word.
So instead of focusing on tithing, I'm going to be talking about the concept of giving money to the church to support the ministry.
So when you reply, don't reply about "tithing", reply to this post about "giving money to the church to support the ministry."
When we define it that way, we see that this concept is totally fine.
I'm not speaking of giving money because you feel God will be mad if you don't or because you feel forced, but because you want to
or feel the need. I have no problem with people doing certain actions out of duty, if they recognize the importance even if their heart
is not fully in it. For example, a husband may not get great joy from going to work, but he might feel a sense of duty to taking care of
his family, and feel a sense of , "this is what I need to do."
If a man can provide for his family, why can't we as Christians provide for our family. When they came to Jesus saying your family is looking
for you, Jesus said, who is my family(mother and brother, etc) but they who do the will of God. Don't we refer to ourselves as the body or family
of Christ? If so, why do we get so defensive when it comes to taking care of the family of God the church? If we Christians are not going to support our
own family, allowing for funds for the ministry or for the payment of the pastor's salary, who do we think will do it. Do we expect God to drop money
from the sky to fund the ministry?
Remember in the days of Acts, the church (body of Christ) brought all that they had and it was shared with the community. There was a sense of oneness.
I think in our individualistic society that we live in, where people see things as this is "my money" or "my property" they are more questioning and discriminating
about giving money to the church. They don't feel as connected and they don't see a responsibility to support the work of God, which is really their work if they truly are part of the church.
I know when I mention that people quickly respond with talks about how the church is mismanaging funds, and how a pastor is driving a BMW, etc.
All of which I believe may have some merit but are just surface reasons as to why they don't want to part with "their money." Giving to God is an investment in the kingdom, remember the parable of the talents and the one who wanted to hold unto what He had was punished by God. Those who speak about
mis-managing funds in the church need to answer this sober question. Ask yourself does your government mismanage funds? Does your tax payer money go towards things such as abortion, war, ear marks, and other wasteful projects that you disagree with? Obviously yes, but when was the last time you didn't pay your taxes because you felt your money was being wasted? Most people pay their taxes regardless because the government needs to run, likewise, lets stop lying to ourselves about I don't want to give to the church because the pastor drives a nice car, do your part and let God do his.
So my thoughts are first remove the "tithing" label, too many connotations and barriers that people have when they hear that word.
Remember even Jesus collected money himself to fund the ministry, remember Judas was their treasurer. And Jesus even complimented the poor
widow for putting into the church treasury, stating the widow give more than all because she give from her abundance of nothing.
So looking at Jesus we see that there is nothing wrong, it is actually encourage, to give to the ministry of the family of God. We should do so cheerfully, and if your heart is not there then just don't give and don't feel guilty about it. Don't feel forced, Annanias and his wife felt forced to give, which is why they lied and were struck dead. It would have been better for them just to say, we don't want to give this instead of acting of fear and lying about it.
So give to the ministry of God. It is your ministry, but do so cheerfully or not at all, and don't feel guilt. Just let the Holy Spirit lead. Those who have the relationship with Jesus and see the value will do so. I find if funny how many will spend like $10 on a movie, or $50 on a video game, or $500 on a vacation,
but when you ask them about putting that same amount to the church, here comes all the excuses as to why the church doesn't need your money. No let's be honest, you are not giving because you don't see the value. Jesus reminded us that where your treasure is your heart will be also, so the sobering fact is many don't have their heart in the work of God and therefore find it difficult to put their treasure(money) there as well.
**Remember I'm not talking about "tithing", but just giving to support the ministry of God**
Hekuran
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Thank you. That's a very helpful way to reframe the discussion.
Dave M
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Jesus_is_LORD
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AMEN amen.
And to add, a comparison was may by someone regarding comparing giving to the ministry and indulgence/avoiding the wrath of God. I have a different perspective. I do not see it that way.
So, imagine sexual sin for example. God may tell us to wait till marriage to have sex, and doing so brings a lot of blessings,but it is not a matter necessarily of God seeking to punish us because we have sex outside of marriage. I see it more in the sense of pre established spiritual laws. So sex outside of marriage puts one at higher risk to stds , abortion, failed relationships, emotional trauma, etc, etc. So when God says don't do it, it is because He loves us and knows the consequences of breaking those laws.
Likewise with sewing into the kingdom, God knows the He has the universe set up that when we release what he has given us, we make room for Him to give us more. This more is usually for us to bless others. So like a pipeline God wants to continually pass blessings through us. Holding onto the blessings limits our spiritual reward.
So I see it as God trying to tell us how to get the maximum by remaining in His love. Jesus wants us to remain in his love and we remain in his love through obedience. In John chapter 15 Jesus said if you love me you will keep my Commandments.
So with giving to the church I see it as God clearly showing us the right path and allowing us to follow it because He loves us. Similar to a parent who tells a child to not play in poision ivy. After the kid does disobey they feel the parent is not hurting me in their wrath bu taking me to this doctor to torture me with needles. But the truth is, though the needles hurt, they are to make you better due fix the problem caused by your disobedience. Which is why the parent told you not to play in poison ivy the first time to spare you the pain, not to scare you into compliance.
Likewise when God talks about bringing your goods into the storehouse so that his house can be full or verses about giving and being blessed with more this is not about scaring people into giving but sharing with them the spiritual reality that exists and hoping that they will see this and follow his message because it comes from a place of love not anger.
And to add, a comparison was may by someone regarding comparing giving to the ministry and indulgence/avoiding the wrath of God. I have a different perspective. I do not see it that way.
So, imagine sexual sin for example. God may tell us to wait till marriage to have sex, and doing so brings a lot of blessings,but it is not a matter necessarily of God seeking to punish us because we have sex outside of marriage. I see it more in the sense of pre established spiritual laws. So sex outside of marriage puts one at higher risk to stds , abortion, failed relationships, emotional trauma, etc, etc. So when God says don't do it, it is because He loves us and knows the consequences of breaking those laws.
Likewise with sewing into the kingdom, God knows the He has the universe set up that when we release what he has given us, we make room for Him to give us more. This more is usually for us to bless others. So like a pipeline God wants to continually pass blessings through us. Holding onto the blessings limits our spiritual reward.
So I see it as God trying to tell us how to get the maximum by remaining in His love. Jesus wants us to remain in his love and we remain in his love through obedience. In John chapter 15 Jesus said if you love me you will keep my Commandments.
So with giving to the church I see it as God clearly showing us the right path and allowing us to follow it because He loves us. Similar to a parent who tells a child to not play in poision ivy. After the kid does disobey they feel the parent is not hurting me in their wrath bu taking me to this doctor to torture me with needles. But the truth is, though the needles hurt, they are to make you better due fix the problem caused by your disobedience. Which is why the parent told you not to play in poison ivy the first time to spare you the pain, not to scare you into compliance.
Likewise when God talks about bringing your goods into the storehouse so that his house can be full or verses about giving and being blessed with more this is not about scaring people into giving but sharing with them the spiritual reality that exists and hoping that they will see this and follow his message because it comes from a place of love not anger.
Simon
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No we don't see it as totally fine.
And besides, this thread is about TITHING.
The whole concept of "supporting ministry" by giving 10% of your income to support a church building and a staff is a sham.
Give to the poor, help your neighbour, support a relative or someone in genuine need, that's ministry.
Simon
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Yes the CAPS are yours, you said:
"Tithing was NOT a part of the old testament law."
This isn't NASB scripture, it's you using the word 'NOT' in CAPS.
Tithing is a part of OT law; here's some examples from THE LAW:
- The First Tithe (the first tenth) of all our increase must be given to the Levites for their work in the sanctuary of Yahweh. (Numbers 18:21-26)
- The Second Tithe must be set aside for the Feasts of Yahweh. (Deuteronomy 14:23-26)
- The priests and Levites must also tithe to the Work of Yahweh. (Numbers 18:24-32)
- The Third Tithe must be set aside for the poor in the third and sixth years of the seven year cycle. (Deuteronomy 14:28-29)
- Tithes and Offerings must be presented to Yahweh with prayer. (Deuteronomy 26:12-19)
- Each household is to bring or send their tithes and offerings before Yahweh to the sanctuary of Yahweh (no Christian collection plate). (Deuteronomy 26:2-4, 10)
- The first portion of the grain offering must be given to the priest at the sanctuary of Yahweh. (Numbers 15:18-21)
Dave M
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well said !!
Jesus_is_LORD
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Ok my friend, lets talk this out.
So if I understand your perspective, you are saying that people are wasting their money by giving 10% to the church is that correct?
My response to that is I agree with you as it seems to be that you are alluding to the fact that the church is the people not the building. I totally agree.
Which is why in my example, I referenced the Christians in Acts, the people, not the building.
So please hear me out, and listen before you formulate your response.
So it seems like you are saying that we should just give the money directly to those in need and not to a formal organization which has
a lot of overheard and the money gets wasted.
I totally understand that concept. But ask yourself first, why do we have a church physical building?
ARE WE THERE YET?
Yes, we could all meet in each other's homes to worship, but then ask yourself my friend, is that the culture we live in?
Do we live in a Christian culture where people are willing and trusting to open up their homes to the body of Christ?
Do we live in a world where people can trust others around their children? So what you are saying sounds good in theory,
and maybe ideally it would work, but in the real world it doesn't seem to be something that works now, as least in the USA.
I would ask you, because of the model that you are proposing, are you willing to offer your home so that the believers in your
assembly can meet on Sunday? If you are married are you willing to ask your spouse(or do it yourself) to cook for the congregation?
This is what the early church did, they didn't have to pay for all the overhead because they did it themselves. For example my friend, why
are churches buying church vans? We'll I'll tell you, because the members in the congregation are not offering their own cars to the church.
As a result the church has to take the expense and purchase that van for ministry. Some will say well that's wasteful, it may be, but the alternative
is for YOU(and Me) to offer our cars to the ministry, and since many are not doing that, the unfortunate alternative of overhead is what we have.
I heard an interesting story on Christian radio. They talked about polling Christians about if the USA should accept Syrian Christian refugees. And
the majority said yes. Then the person doing the research called individual churches and asked if they would ask their congregation members to
open up their homes to have a refugee family living with them. 100%, all of the churches said no. So it seems like everyone wants ministry to be
done, but when they are asked are you willing to do it, people don't step up.
GIVING DIRECTLY IS IMPORTANT
Don't get me wrong, I totally get where you are coming from. I personally give a little over 10% of my income to the church. But I'm one of those
Christians like yourself(maybe you do) that does hands on ministry. I go out and also spend my own money to feed the homeless. I give rides to strangers.
Last year saw a lady whose car broke down and she needed a tow truck but didn't have any money and I give her $100 cash for a tow truck.
And sometimes when there is a big need, I don't give the tithe to the church and give it directly to the individual that needs it.
This of course is not about me, but just sharing. I also in addition to giving my tithe regularly feel that God has honored and blessed me as I'm
currently debt free, and I also have supported 3 family members of the years who live in another continent by sending them money to graduate from college and graduate school(For example some churches have scholarship funds, I don't have to give to that because I'm pretty much giving out my own scholarship directly to those I know need it), are other CHristians giving out scholarships directly to individuals?.
So I understand giving the money directly. I do it and tithe.
I understand that many outsource the work of ministry to the church and ministry then becomes very formal,
whereas it should be a natural way of life as you state. I understand.
LETS DO BOTH
I think and if you reflect you will agree, that there are some things that God has for us to do specifically(individually). Yes ministry is not always about money. It can be
just visiting those in the hospital. But many people don't do that on their own, so churches have to formalize it and have a visiting the sick group in church.
But other point is that there are also things that are best done with our combined effort and pulling our resources together. For example, did you know that
two oxen together can pull more than their individual pulling combined. So if one oxen pulls 1000lbs you would expect 2 together to pull 2000lbs, but that's not
the case. Two together has an effect that is more then double (say 2500lbs just for example). This is similar I believe when we combine our resources, we have an ability to do far greater good.
For example Christian radio has ministered to many, but one person can't pay for a radio station , you would have to combine resources. But then the
argument could be made, that we don't need to pay for a Christian radio station if Christians everywhere were witnessing and preaching the gospel in their sphere of influence.
But the question my friend is are they? Are we? So I see the formalize ministry (and I'm not saying its the best way) as a natural consequence of individuals not doing what we should. The more the individuals do, the less there will be a need for overhead.
But ultimately there is value in doing your part individually and their is value in combining our resources to do together what we cannot do alone.
So let's do both. Jesus did both. He ministered directly and also combined resources like having a treasurer Judas to collect money to the work that needed more funds. Let me know if any part of that didn't make sense.
God bless
