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Thank you and bless you, Isaac. Most all of these scriptures have been lovingly used to reprove and rebuke in this thread.
Is Jesus really God?
Thank you and bless you, Isaac. Most all of these scriptures have been lovingly used to reprove and rebuke in this thread.
Member
Jesus' own words said they considered Jesus blaspheming because he said he was the Son of God, not God Himself.
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Being one in nature and essence does not mean that Jesus is God Himself incarnate. Let's look at the verses before Jn10:30..
Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Who is greater than all? Jesus' Father. Jesus was not claiming to be God, he is claiming that he is the Son of God, and that the Father works through him. That does not deny Jesus' diety, but means that there is ONE greater than he is. If Jesus did/does not have the nature and essence of God, then he would not be His Christ, our Savior and Lord would he?
Of course Jesus was before Abraham! Good grief, he is the Word of God, the firstborn of all creation. He is who God worked through to create all that was created. Jesus declaired himself as God's Son, that is why they wanted to stone him. Lev 24:15 is not talking about someone who is claiming to be God being stoned, but someone who curses the name of God. Jesus was saying that he is the Son of God, and in the eyes of the Jews at the time, that was a blasphemous charge. The following verses that are used in the article as proof of the fact Jesus was claiming to be God does not make sense. The stoning offence in Lev 24:16 was the offense of cursing God, and blaspheming His name.
Lev 24:13 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 24:14 Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him.
Lev 24:15 And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin.
Lev 24:16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.
It is convenient to leave out verses that do not comply or support your own doctrine. How about reading and explaining the rest of what in found around John1:1 and John 1:14?
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
So, God was with Himself? Does that make one iota of sense to anyone? God called Moses a god to Pharoah. Not one person cared to comment on that, but kept on saying that Jesus is God incarnate instead of the Word of God incarnate. Jesus is diety because God made him diety. The SECOND in command.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Joh 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
This says that the Word was made flesh, not God was made flesh! The Word of God was before John the Baptist because he was who God worked through to create everything that was created. It says in vs 18 that Jesus declares God, not that he is God incarnate. Don't you think that if that were true that Jesus would have said that? He doesn't say it, and what ever the oneness people have decided to take as proof when compared to all the other verses surrounding it fall flat. They do not answer the questions with answers that take all of scripture into account. At the end of the day they will say "it is a mystery, and cannot be explained"! Jesus is not God in the flesh, he is the Son of God, the Word of God made flesh.
Jesus is God's own flesh and blood. My children are my own flesh and blood. That does not mean that my children are me. That does not mean that Jesus is God, but is His Son, God's own flesh and blood used to purchase the church.
Because the Father refers to someone as God does not mean they are God incarnate. Just like when Jesus says "ye are gods" that does not mean ye are God incarnate. But no one has given an answer to those scriptures that have been pointed out by me as well as others on this thread. Why does God call Moses god? Why does Jesus call "ye" gods?
Of course Jesus' throne is going to last forever and ever because God said so. It is Jesus' kingdom, but by the will of God.
No question about it. Jesus is above angels. He is second in command, and therefore worthy of praise, worship etc. But not above the True God. If there is one who is greater than Jesus, then bet your boots He will be the one my ultimate praise, honor, worship will be going to. That does not diminish Jesus' place, but exalts the Father above him.
Lets take a look at what is surrounding 1 Jn 2:2
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
Is Jesus an advocate to himself? Come on! It says right there in black and white: we have an advocate WITH the Father...who is Jesus Christ the righteous. Now, of course God enabled Jesus to be sinless by His Spirit, but that does not make Jesus God. That does not mean that God Himself died on the cross like the book "The Shack" that is all into new age stuff believes.
Jesus is God's Christ.
1Co 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
This is even shown in the book of Revelation after Jesus was resurrected by the Father. The kingdom of God, and the power of His Christ. It does not say that Christ IS God, but that God works through Jesus for His own glory and honor.
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I would like to warn anyone out there who is seeking the truth to be very, very careful whose teachings you chose to sit under. Jesus warned us there would be false prophets and wolves in sheep's clothing. We are also warned that Satan himself comes to people as an angel of light. These foul spiritual forces present themselves as real Christianity, and yet they bear no fruit, feed convolution and confusion to the flock, and ultimately kill, steal, and destroy.
If you want the truth, don't go to any person. They don't have it. Jesus alone is the Truth. And He is faithful, He is God, He will teach you all you need to know. You can trust Him and Him alone.
If you want the truth, don't go to any person. They don't have it. Jesus alone is the Truth. And He is faithful, He is God, He will teach you all you need to know. You can trust Him and Him alone.
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How about that! Something we agree on.
Member
There isn't a doctrine of God that can't be taught in less than a dozen scriptures because God is not the God of confusion. The traditions of man, however, go in circles, turn truth upside down, cast doubt, and weave convoluted, crooked seams. I pray you will cast aside the notion that you can figure God out by the arm of your flesh and a concordance. Come to Him like a child, and He will reveal every truth He has.
Scripture doesn't say that God rewards those who diligently seek word studies, it says God rewards those who diligently seek Him.
Member
Interesting how one can fully explain every verse that another uses to support some claim and yet somehow are still told they are wrong. The first person who comes along making some claim appears correct until someone else comes along and questions it. And there are so many that can't stand to have what they want to believe questioned.
Member
By prayer and scripture anyone can know and learn more about God. The more that is learned, the deeper the relationship. Searching, and studying scripture is what we are instructed to do by Jesus, and the others who wrote the NT.
For example, doing a quick word search on scriptures was very interesting..
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For those of you who believe that Jesus was God the Father incarnate: Why come claiming to be the "Son" of God? God is not the author of confusion, so why not just come right out and tell everyone that he was the Father and never stray from that? Saying that he was the Son is sorta misleading and causes confusion.
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The confusion comes from carnal thinking when approaching the scriptures. These truths are "spiritually discerned."
To come into this thread, which is asking if Jesus can be trusted, and cast any doubt whatsoever on that question, is unconscionable.
The scriptures have been laid out for the deity of Christ, and His equality with God the Father, as They are both one and the same. And God will empower His truth, and the rest will fall flat.
Member
I truly am sorry that you see all the scripture evidence for the opposite as being out of a carnal nature. Those scriptures that have reproved this doctrine of oneness does not deny the deity of Christ, nor have they come from the imaginations of men, but from taking all the scriptures themselves. It is with erroneous thinking that the conclusion has been reached that someone who studies to be approved has done so without prayer and guidance from the Holy Spirit.
Taking a few verses out of context is what cults do. The warnings have all been given on this thread. The oneness doctrine will be on road that leads into the one world religion, and mark of the beast. With that said, there is the grace of God upon those who are seeking Him and worshipping Him in spirit and in truth. But compromise is where the slide begins. My prayer and hope is that at some point in time all that has been said here will be remembered at the time needed the most.
Those who really want to lay down preconceived ideas and read through all the scriptures will find that a deeper understanding of the word really can be found through both prayer and study of the texts that God inspired those saints to write.
Taking a few verses out of context is what cults do. The warnings have all been given on this thread. The oneness doctrine will be on road that leads into the one world religion, and mark of the beast. With that said, there is the grace of God upon those who are seeking Him and worshipping Him in spirit and in truth. But compromise is where the slide begins. My prayer and hope is that at some point in time all that has been said here will be remembered at the time needed the most.
Those who really want to lay down preconceived ideas and read through all the scriptures will find that a deeper understanding of the word really can be found through both prayer and study of the texts that God inspired those saints to write.
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God did lots of things that are inexplicable, like when He put spittle on His fingers when He healed the blind man and told him to wash in pool of Siloam. As if God needs spittle to heal people, or the pool had anything to do with the healing. But God's ways are not our ways, so, as in the case of the Jews who were expecting a conquering military-like Messiah, just when we expect Him to do "this", God does "that" instead.
Jesus was a stumbling block to the Jews (1 Corinthians 1:23) no doubt because of verses like Isaiah 43:11 : "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior", among many others. These are the same people that Jesus spoke to in parables, "lest they be converted and healed" (Mark 4:11-12), and the bible says God does things to confound the wise (1 Corinthians 1:27-29), He does things His way and for His reasons.
But back to your question. Exodus 33:20 says no one can see God and live and 1 Tim 6:13-16 says God lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see, so God the Father could not come to this earth in the form of Himself, He had to come in another form, which was Jesus, who is the visible representation of the invisible God. God had to present Himself to the world in a way in which we could see Him and not be consumed at the same time. He did this through Jesus, who said if you have seen me you've seen the father (John 14:8-11).
Lastly, as light can be a wave and a particle at the same time (Quantum Mechanics), so too can God be on the earth and in Heaven at the same time. And just as I can be a father, son, brother and nephew at the same time, with no division or dissimilarity in the aspects of any of them, so too can God be the Father and Son at the same time.
Your question was, why call Himself 'Son', which is so confusing. Well, if the Father came down to earth and took on a flesh body and called Himself the Father, do you think the Jews would have believed THAT, when they believed God is Spirit, whom no one can see and live?
In fact, that's one of the reasons they didn't believe Jesus, because their concept of God didn't include flesh and blood.
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hebrewes chapter one God calls Jesus God. i believe along verses 7,8,and9 . therefor oh God even thy God has anointed thee . and in another place Gods sais of Christ, let the angles of God WORSHIP him. in john ch 8 he sais i am and in John 10 wmy Father and I are one. there are several referances to Christ being God having been with God from th beginning for without him was not anything made that was made. ill look up those verses for you and give thm on a later post if you like . tx.
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Neither by his claims about himself, nor by the claims of others about him but by his meritoriously "first and last" self-revelation in his death on the cross has Jesus distinguished himself beyond all doubts to be the LORD Almighty, a.k.a., "the God of the living, not of the dead."
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Cults are not alone in their discouragment of questioning. The churches are not any different. Only those who question and learn know the truth and its complete freedom. (John 8: 31-32)
Putting oneself to the test to find out whether one is in faith and allowing others to question what one believes are completely foreign to the contemporary Christian experience. (2 Cor. 12: 5-6)
What a loss!
Putting oneself to the test to find out whether one is in faith and allowing others to question what one believes are completely foreign to the contemporary Christian experience. (2 Cor. 12: 5-6)
What a loss!
Loyal
"For therein is the righteousnessof God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." rom 1:17
Notice that we do not live by our knowledge, not even knowledge of thescriptures, but by faith.
Some people on this thread have come on strong in favor of Jesus being God andin favor of the Trinity doctrine while others have come on strong in favor ofJesus always being subordinate to the Father (God) and against any Trinity.Perhaps some have opposed Jesus being God or even a god. The answers orclarification for these questions or doubts come to us by faith toward God or not at all.
Yes, we are to study (2tim 2:15), but the purpose of our studies is not... or should not (I believe)... be to gain God's Truth. The Truth comes, if at all via the Holy Ghost (john 14:26). We study as an act of obedience. The Holy Ghost in us may then quicken (bring to Life) the scriptures we have consumed if we do not quench the Spirit by the very logical (and carnal?) process of our own minds.
If a doctrine we hold is God's Truth, then considering seriously the opinion or belief of someone else would not be something to fear. Likewise, if a doctrine we hold is NOT God's Truth, then considering seriously the opinion or belief of someone else would not be something to fear.
Our love should never be for our doctrine, but for Truth, whatever it is! Most of us (probably all of us) believe the doctrines we hold are correct, or we would not hold them. When our doctrines do not all agree, it is probable that some, or all, of us are wrong. The key, I believe, is never in the doctrine held, but in the love of Truth (even if we are missing part of the whole of Truth and who is not?)
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Notice that we do not live by our knowledge, not even knowledge of thescriptures, but by faith.
Some people on this thread have come on strong in favor of Jesus being God andin favor of the Trinity doctrine while others have come on strong in favor ofJesus always being subordinate to the Father (God) and against any Trinity.Perhaps some have opposed Jesus being God or even a god. The answers orclarification for these questions or doubts come to us by faith toward God or not at all.
Yes, we are to study (2tim 2:15), but the purpose of our studies is not... or should not (I believe)... be to gain God's Truth. The Truth comes, if at all via the Holy Ghost (john 14:26). We study as an act of obedience. The Holy Ghost in us may then quicken (bring to Life) the scriptures we have consumed if we do not quench the Spirit by the very logical (and carnal?) process of our own minds.
If a doctrine we hold is God's Truth, then considering seriously the opinion or belief of someone else would not be something to fear. Likewise, if a doctrine we hold is NOT God's Truth, then considering seriously the opinion or belief of someone else would not be something to fear.
Our love should never be for our doctrine, but for Truth, whatever it is! Most of us (probably all of us) believe the doctrines we hold are correct, or we would not hold them. When our doctrines do not all agree, it is probable that some, or all, of us are wrong. The key, I believe, is never in the doctrine held, but in the love of Truth (even if we are missing part of the whole of Truth and who is not?)
| | "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. | ||||||||||
| | And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie" 2 thess 2:10-11 Someone who is deluded does not know that he is in error. Can he be corrected? Yes, but only God gives the increase. God may use another man to give the increase, but who can assume that God will use him and no other? Again, the important thing is not the doctrine but the Love of Truth. Without getting into the question of the OP, God is Love (1 john 4:8) and the Truth is Jesus (john 14:6). And then again what is Love? God! And how is Love or Charity described in scripture?
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The catalyst for love is personal knowledge of Jesus Christ as perpetually revealed in the kind of death he suffered. This is part and parcel of the gospel even if abandoned today.
Without such stimulus, all the sacrifices in life (we call love) are self-serving. (1 Cor. 13:3)
Without such stimulus, all the sacrifices in life (we call love) are self-serving. (1 Cor. 13:3)
Member
Hello amadeus2.
Read the following passages please.
It seems that sound doctrine is vital.
1 Timothy 4:6
In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus,
constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following.
1 Timothy 6:1
All who are under the yoke as slaves are to regard their own masters as worthy of all honor
so that the name of God and our doctrine will not be spoken against.
1 Timothy 6:3
If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness,
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
Titus 1:9
holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.
Loyal
And Love is God, Himself! If His Spirit is in us and we are not quenching that Spirit, it will be a self-serving sacrifice, will it?
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Loyal
Indeed, it is, but who can really have sound doctrine without God? Who can sound doctrine without Love which is God? Is this really a 'which comes first, the chicken or the egg question'? How can anyone have sound doctrine without Love? How can anyone have sound doctrine without God? What is according to Jesus the first and greatest commandment? And what is the second? Neither of them are to have sound doctrine!
In another place Jesus tells us to put first things first:
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33
Do you not suppose that "sound doctrine" if necessary would be included in the "all things"?