Is Jesus really God?

gdemoss · Jan 31, 2012

Brother Mike said:
WoW Gary.............

Whosoever denies the Son......... Who Denies God created a Son?

If Jesus was just God, and some part of God being the Word that just turned into flesh, still the Word, still really God.

Then there would be nothing to compare obedience to the Father, as there never really was a son if it was just God. So, If Jesus was God the creator, then we have excuse, because who can really be like God.

Correct.

But if Jesus was born of God, a son, created by God, and showed his loyalty to God, being obedient unto death. Then we have a real example whereby there is no excuse. If Big brother did it, and helps us, we can also do it.

Begotten not made. Yes fully in the God class until the day he left his first estate to become a man. He became part of the creation as was planned before the foundation of the earth was laid. Before his entrance into the creation he was not of created substance but of the very substance of God the father, as much as you and I are of our earthly fathers. It would be like one of us leaving off being a man to be made in the likeness of a dog.

I am sure I beat this up some, but profound.

The scripture is Correct, if Jesus is the Son of God, then Jesus is in the God class, and God also like God. Not God the creator, whom no other is like though.

He left it all. He became poor for our sakes that we might become rich. But there was never any reason to worry for God the Father as he is sovereign over all. He carved the path for his Son to come home with honors, never allowing him to be tempted above that which he is able. The like manner that he does for us also as it is written.

So now, Jesus sits at the right hand of our Father interceding on our behalf as the path is carved out for us to follow in his footsteps. Let us not walk but run the race with joy as we see the prize off in the distance. We have been given the power to become the sons of God, we are told we must receive him as he was meant to be received by Israel. Our King. The anointed one of God.

Glory and honor be unto God our Father and Jesus Christ his beloved Son, our brother,

Gary

TouchTestimony · Jan 31, 2012

B-A-C said:
TJ won't let me quote a quote...

Originally posted by Bro Mike.
Here are some questions to ponder.

(1) Why is the Father always spoken of as having sons (2 Cor 6:18) and never "brothers", whereas Jesus is spoken of as having "brothers" (Matt 25:40; Heb 2:17, Ps 22:22) but never sons ?
The father is not the son, the son is not the father. The word family... it's made up of a husband, a wife, and often children. The husband is not the wife, the wife is not the husband, but without each other, they are not family.
Another illustration here, the egg yoke is not the egg white, the egg white is not the shell, but all together they are an egg.

(2) Why does the Bible always show Jesus as the Son of God (Matt 16:16; John 20:31) and not as God ?
Well Jesus is the son of God. However there are many many verses that say Jesus is God.

(3) Why does the Bible teach that the Son, Jesus, receives the "kingdom" (Dan 7:13,14; Luke 22:29; Isa 9:6) and never God as receiving it ?
In a family, the phrase "mom got a new car" could be taken as, mom is the person who will primarily be driving it. However the whole family will likely be riding in it.

(4) Why is Jesus, the Son, always spoken of being "sent forth" by the Father (John 4:34; 7:16,28,29) but never God the Father as being "sent forth" by the Son ?
Does the son order the father around, or the father order the son around?

(5) Why did Jesus always pray to his Father and not the Father to the Son ?(Matt 6:9; 11:25; 26:39,42,44)
Because Jesus was on Earth without some of his powers. The father was always in heaven with all of his power. (All of these questions have been answered before)

(6) Why is Jesus called God's "servant", but never is God called Jesus "servant" ?(Isa 42:1; Matt 12:18; Acts 3:13,26; Acts 4:27,29)
Again, does the son command the father, or the father command the son. All parts are not necessarily equal in a family, or in an egg, on a football team, etc... However each is equally important in their role.

(7) Why did Jesus call himself the "firstborn of all creation", at Revelation 3:14, but of God, he is from "everlasting to everlasting", at Psalms 90:2 ?
Because Jesus existed before creation. God/Jesus always existed. When the earth and universe were created. who do think created them?

(8) Why was Jesus "exalted to the right hand of God"(Acts 2:33; Phil 2:9; 1 Pet 3:22), but never has God been exalted to the right hand of Jesus ?
Back to the father/son thing. See answers to questions 1, 4 and 6.

(9) Why is Jesus spoken as the "Lamb of God"(John 1:29), but never God as the ' Lamb of Jesus' ?
Because Jesus was made flesh to be sacrificed. (The wages of sin is death) This is such a deep theological truth I hesitate to give this a quick short answer. The bottom line is Jesus was the Lamb that was slain (on the cross, for our sins, etc..) the sacrifice that had to be done to pay the price for our sins. (Isa 53:10) The father wasn't sacrificed to please Jesus, Jesus was sacrificed to satisfy the father.

(10) Why is Jesus always called the Son (Matt 3:17; 17:5), but never the Father, and why is God always called the Father (2 Cor 1:3; Eph 1:3,17) but never the Son ?
See answers to 1, 4, 6 and 8 above.

(11) Why is Jesus taught by the Father (John 7:28), but the Father is taught by no one ?(Isa 40:13)
Jesus was born as a human, had human limitations when he was on the earth. He had to learn many things from scratch. (as a human) Jesus's favorite name for himself was he "son of man". Do you know why this is?

why? why? why? why? why?

Brighthouse · Jan 31, 2012

I have been most troubled by much of what I have seen here! And since I never wish to make anyone look foolish in front of others I will only say this.Take HEED!! BE VERY CAREFUL what you say!! Gal 6:7!! Causing another to stumble in not a small matter! If I had the power I would remove all false doctrine! Truth sets people free,lies keep those in darkness.be warned! The person I am speaking to about this knows of whom i mean!

Brother Mike · Jan 31, 2012

I think we are pretty clear here.

Brighthouse:

I have been most troubled by much of what I have seen here! And since I never wish to make anyone look foolish in front of others I will only say this.

I understand some Sacred Cows may have been hurt in the making of this thread. The title of the thread is "Is Jesus Really God"

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
(Thomas still got a rebuke)
Here are two scriptures (The few) stating that Jesus is God.

The Hebrew Word El, (Not Elohim) and Greek word theos Translated God.

Jesus said..........

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods (Theos)?

Same word Theos, God. That Thomas used.

Just because Jesus called us gods does not make us God the creator. Just God in class, just like Jesus.

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

God made everything for his son, and made him rule over all things, God even made the planets for him. Jesus was Begotten of God, not God begotten himself. Jesus is the Son of God, not God the creator.

Any Doctrine that attempts to remove Jesus as God's son, whom God had made. Puts in the minds of people to read the Word, and superimpose God in place of Jesus, as that is who Jesus really is, it's God all along. Makes God no different than Allah, The Muslim God that had no son.

Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:

The Antichrist denies God had a son, who he gave all things to, even the planets.
If a Doctrine comes in with made up words like Trinity, <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves/> <w:TrackFormatting/> <w

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The made up Words are only there to perpetuate a false Doctrine, and by these made up bible words alone, one should be cautious.

The Scriptures make it very Clear, we are to believe that Jesus is the Son of God, not, Jesus is really God. If we where to think different, the Word would have told us to do so.

Jesus is Lord.

N8VFlower · Jan 31, 2012

I have read the arguments being made here...and I ain't a trying to add fuel to the fire, but why are y'all arguing? I mean I see the reason...debating the Holy Trinity, but seriously..y'all are fighting? I know there is a difference in a friendly debate and a heated discussion..just from my POV...it looks like y'all are about ready to put on some boxing gloves!

That is what Satan gets his kicks from...seeing Christians fight. Just sayin' is all....It is obvious y'all have different opinions on it, so agree to disagree and trust God to let y'all know what the truth is...don't give pleasure to Satan in seeing y'all argue....ANY time I can make the devil mad...is a good day.:clapping::immature:

BTW, my personal beliefs...I believe in the Holy Trinity, Father/Son/Holy Spirit...being different but still one. Like me, I am a mother, a sister and a wife. I am all 3 but I am one person...that is how someone explained it to me one time.

peace to y'all both.

Brother Mike · Jan 31, 2012

N8VFlower

I have read the arguments being made here...and I ain't a trying to add fuel to the fire, but why are y'all arguing? I mean I see the reason...debating the Holy Trinity, but seriously..y'all are fighting? I know there is a difference in a friendly debate and a heated discussion..just from my POV...it looks like y'all are about ready to put on some boxing gloves!

That is what Satan gets his kicks from...seeing Christians fight. Just sayin' is all....It is obvious y'all have different opinions on it, so agree to disagree and trust God to let y'all know what

Blessings Sister, You will find we are all from different denominational backgrounds and belief's being one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Within that spectrum, belief systems become wide. Hence, Sacred Cows get ran over, and nobody likes their Cow being hit on.

If anything comes to personal attacks, I will fix it, or if you find anything offensive, please report it so that all the moderators can look at it.

Your the blessed!!

Jesus Is Lord.

N8VFlower · Jan 31, 2012

Sacred Cow? I think I know what you mean by that....but I am sorry...I also have to laugh at the term "sacred cow" due to a personal joke between me and my husband..and his ex wife....but that is another story.....LOL!

In all seriousness, I understand that we are all of many denominations and all have different views on how we interpret the Bible. No, I ain't offended by anything. It takes a lot to ruffle my feathers. Sometimes I will try to make peace..or just sit back and laugh. LOL!

I was just pointing out that we all are not going to believe the same things all the time, and to just let it rest because it seems they are on a tread mill.

So do not worry....I am not offended by anything, as I said, it takes a lot to ruffle my feathers!

David777 · Jan 31, 2012

Hello all.

The revelation from God to mankind is the revelation of?

Jesus Christ.

This is the foundation and core of the Bible.

This is at another level is way above doctrine.

The entire Bible is revealing whom Jesus Christ is.

Read the following verses.

"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, 'I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,'...Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, 'Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death." (Revelation 1:10-18).

Who is the First and the Last? Jehovah, Yahweh, God!:

"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; besides Me there is no God." (Isaiah 44:6);

"'Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called:

I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last."

(Isaiah 48:12).

No mystery here Mike, this is God the Almighty.

One God.

Brother Mike · Jan 31, 2012

Thank you David777

Pretty nice post David777

When someone is blinded by false Doctrine, they will scramble, and twist, and twist, then go get their Greek and Hebrew looking for any thread of hope they can counter blatant scriptures to the contrary.

So, with that said. I can't explain everything, I can also post a few more that would counter Jesus is God's Son, and Not God.

God never was dead though, and he raised Jesus from the dead.

I don't take the position that Jesus was not here with God as the son from the start.

"Let us Make man in OUR image." The image of God, not angles. He was talking to someone, and not the Holy Spirit, because we are in flesh bodies.

"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; besides Me there is no God." (Isaiah 44:6);

"'Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called:

I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last."

(Isaiah 48:12).

Jesus was the first from the last, the first to be resurrected from the dead, He is the end of all things to come. Just as he stated, He was dead, now alive.

He was the first born of many, He is the author and finisher of our faith.

God stated there is no other God but him. No other creator, but God. He is unique.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Jesus was the image of God, there are way to many places in scripture where they could have just said Jesus is God, but he is the image, and for him where all things created. (For HIM)

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Paul was very specific about who Jesus was. God the Father, and One Lord Jesus Christ by whom are all things.

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

God appointed Jesus his son to be heir to all things, and even made the worlds for His son.

So, I can't explain everything, and certainly my explanation is pretty shaky about Jesus being the Alpha and Omega, which he is. What I can do is look at all the other evidence and realize that in no way was anyone confused about who Jesus was, or God was, and who gave what to who.

Thank you for the great post!!

Jesus Is Lord.

N8VFlower · Jan 31, 2012

If y'all ain't made your points by now...you never will...seriously... (rolls eyes)

Guess I will grab me some popcorn and a drink and watch the circus......(rolls eyes again...and laughs)

If you want to show someone they are believing false doctrines, first look at what they believe from their eyes to see how they view it, then show them how you view your truth through your eyes, after that, all you can really do is pray that God will show the truth as HE see's it to y'all both.

Brother Mike · Jan 31, 2012

Well.

If y'all ain't made your points by now...you never will...seriously... (rolls eyes)

Guess I will grab me some popcorn and a drink and watch the circus......(rolls eyes again...and laughs)

Don't think for a second Sister I felt David777 saw what I posted and he just said "WoW!!! I was wrong all along, what was I thinking??"

About the only Hope is that someone will see things they did not before and go back and make adjustments to what they believe, or be stronger in what they believe.

I know these forums have helped me firmly believe what I believe and have caused a lot of study on my part when things come up I can't answer and it challenges what I thought was true.

So, it may on the outside look like a Circus, but a lot of this does affirm what we believe, and challenges us to change the things we need to change.

Jesus is Lord.

N8VFlower · Jan 31, 2012

I read this in a book...made sense to me...I believe it is called the BIBLE...aka..WORD OF GOD..KJV of course. I find most other versions are not as helpful to me personally. I understand the KJV and NKJV better is what I am meaning.

John 1:1-3~In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2.The same was in the beginning with God. 3. All things were made by him;and without him was not anything made that was made.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

This is only a few verses of course...to me personally...this says clearly that God the Father/God the Son (Jesus) and God the Holy Spirit are all one.

The "Word was with God...who is the "Word"?
(HINT): it is referring to JESUS!

If they are not all one, then Jesus was just a normal man and the whole NT was just nothing more than ramblings and false doctrines. (Of course well all know that is not so...right? Well...most of us anyway.) Only GOD Himself could pay our sin debt because He has NO sin in Him. If Jesus is not God, then we are still under law and not grace.

God had to take the form of man in order to live among us on Earth. He had to "give up" in a sense, His "God powers" so that He could be tempted as we are, and have the emotions and feelings that we humans deal with. Also while doing that....God was still on the throne in Heaven. How can God do this? Because He is God...He is omnipresent and does not think the way we think.

Don't make me get my crayons out and draw pictures so y'all can understand it better!!

OK...now..where did I put that popcorn?

Brother Mike · Feb 1, 2012

Is Jesus God?

Better get those crayons.:wink:

Jesus Is Lord.

Peace Seeker · Feb 1, 2012

N8VFlower said:
If y'all ain't made your points by now...you never will...seriously... (rolls eyes)

I'm rolling my eyes too, and I'm sure any non-believer that happens to stumble upon threads like this will too.

Peace Seeker · Feb 1, 2012

David777 said:
The revelation from God to mankind is the revelation of?

Jesus Christ.

This is the foundation and core of the Bible.

This is at another level is way above doctrine.

The entire Bible is revealing whom Jesus Christ is.

Read the following verses.

"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, 'I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,'...Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, 'Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death." (Revelation 1:10-18).

Who is the First and the Last? Jehovah, Yahweh, God!:

"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; besides Me there is no God." (Isaiah 44:6);

"'Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called:

I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last."

(Isaiah 48:12).

No mystery here Mike, this is God the Almighty.

One God.

I agree wholeheartedly with this, and I notice how according to Scripture, only God is worthy of the name ‘Savior’ (Isaiah 43:11; Hosea 13:4) and yet the Bible repeatedly ascribes this name to Jesus. As in the book of Titus and many other places.

Also, in Isaiah 42:8 and many other places God says : I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another.

Yet God the Father has given His glory to Jesus.

In Hebrews 1:8 we read that God the Father says to his Son Jesus, ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever ...’

One of the most famous verses about Jesus calls Him God :

Isaiah 9:6
<sup>6</sup>For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder. And His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 14:9 <sup>9</sup>Jesus said unto him, "Have I been so long a time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, `Show us the Father'?

Titus 2:13
<sup>13 </sup>looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

I'm sure these verses must have been posted in this long thread already, but I can't remember if they were or not, so I posted them in case they weren't.

Not that it ultimately matters though, because these kinds of debates rarely, if ever, result in opposing viewpoints swaying over to the other side, so I really don't see the point in them.

Lastly,

1 Corinthians 8:1-2
We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJ21-28503">2</sup>And if any man think that he knoweth anything, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

I don't think this statement should be taken lightly.

Peace Seeker · Feb 1, 2012

Brother Mike said:
we are all from different denominational backgrounds and belief's being one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. Within that spectrum, belief systems become wide. Hence, Sacred Cows get ran over, and nobody likes their Cow being hit on.

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We have the same Lord, so shouldn't we endeavor to worship Him and bring glory to Him through unity and forbearance to one another, paying no respect to different denominational backgrounds or "sacred cows"? Instead of stirring up pointless endless endless strife that does more harm than good?

I am sure you knew this subject would cause strife, division and hard feelings. Is that what we are supposed to do?

You talk about Sacred Cows getting ran over, in a way that makes it appear that you LIKE to run them over.

You have posted lots of scripture for your belief, but the same can be said for those who disagree with yours. Will you change to their side? Will they to yours? We know the answer to that.

Therefore, all these endless debates do, IMHO, is give the devil a good time as we pit our "wisdom" against each other, while at the same time showing non-believers that may happen to look into this forum, a glimpse of what they already believe about us, that we are squabblers that constantly disagree with each other, and as such, if we can't make up our minds about our faith, why should they! :shock:

B-A-C · Feb 1, 2012

Peace Seeker said:
I'm rolling my eyes too, and I'm sure any non-believer that happens to stumble upon threads like this will too.

Yet we are called to defend the Gospel.

Tit 1:9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.
Tit 1:10 For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision,
Tit 1:11 who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain.

2Pe 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2Pe 2:2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
2Pe 2:3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

2Ti 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.

Php 1:16 the latter do it out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel;

Eph 4:14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
Eph 4:15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,

If we see someone preaching a different Gospel and don't point it out and just let it go, we will be held accountable for this. Some will see this is as pointless bickering. If many threads on this website I agree, once saved always saved? Speaking in tongues? Pre-destination? We can argue about these things, I doubt your salvation depends on any of those things.

Believing whether or not Jesus is God. That's one that your salvation does depend upon on. I for one don't want to be answering to God why I didn't defend his Word.

Some people Christians are all love and peace. Yes we are called to support and love one another. We are called to be of one mind. But we are also called called to rebuke and reprove those preaching another message.

1Ti 6:3 If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness,
1Ti 6:4 he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions,
1Ti 6:5 and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.

1Ti 6:20 Timothy, guard the Good News which has been entrusted to you. Turn away from pointless discussions and the claims of false knowledge that people use to oppose the Christian faith.
1Ti 6:21 Although some claim to have knowledge, they have abandoned the faith. God's good will be with all of you.

I do agree with one point, this argument has now gotten to the point where everyone is just repeating the same stuff over and over again.
With all the scripture being passed around, if they aren't convinced by now... perhaps God has closed their mind.

2Th 2:11 That's why God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe a lie.

Rom 1:28 And because they thought it was worthless to acknowledge God, God allowed their own immoral minds to control them. So they do these indecent things.

If you keep denying God, he will eventually give you what you want.
I have to say I find it amazing in this thread, I've counted over 30 different names that all agree that Jesus is God, and only one that doesn't agree, yet he is convinced he is right. We have refuted the "logic" and verses he has given over and over again, but he refuses to see it. We have given him (at last count) over 40 scriptures that say Jesus is God, yet he continues to say he doesn't see it. He seems to believe they cannot be one entity, unless they are one single personality.

B-A-C · Feb 1, 2012

Another amazing thing about this thread is... the Holy Spirit part of the Trinity hasn't really been discussed here either.

The Holy Spirit wasn't on the earth when Jesus was.
Joh 7:39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Joh 16:7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you

Joh 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

The Holy Spirit has emotions, it is isn't just some impersonal force.
Eph 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

The Holy Spirit is just as much a part of God as Jesus is.

Brother Mike · Feb 1, 2012

The Sacred Cow.

I am curious. If, as you said, "we are all from different denominational backgrounds and belief's being one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ, and within that spectrum, belief systems become wide", then what is the point of these endless debates? Why do you not respect others' beliefs within the unity of our mutual faith in Jesus Christ? Because you know better than everyone else? Because you are always right?

We have the same Lord, so shouldn't we endeavor to worship Him and bring glory to Him through unity and forbearance to one another, paying no respect to different denominational backgrounds or "sacred cows"? Instead of stirring up pointless endless endless strife that does more harm than good?

Thank you for the Kind Message.

First, I never disrespected anyone's beliefs. I never have gotten the least bit upset, I never personally attacked anyone.

The problem is there are many, many scriptures I posted that have been a) ignored, or b) explained away with the egg, the women can be a mom,daughter, and grandmother explanation. Scriptures explained with Doctrine. David777 has done a excellent Job avoiding this. I wish it where the same with the other post.

There are some scriptures I can not explain (like 3) that supports the Trinity Doctrine. One was actually posted. Isaiah 9:6
You can't just remove the Word father in this, Jesus never called himself father, but it's mentioned here. The word God used here is El, Not God's name, but a god, or possible GOD.

When people quote Jesus saying I am the first and last....Alpha Omega anyone can go in and say. "yes he was, the firstbegotten in the world, he was dead (Being born first into the world and killed) then Alive. (Rev 1:18)

Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Jesus said he was the first, I proved he was first with a scripture that also coincides with him being killed, and brought back to life.

God said I AM, Jesus said I AM...... since Jesus was given everything, and God called him God, did that Make Jesus the I AM, or is Jesus also God?
A very good point, since I can't fully explain it with scriptures, but just guess what would make sense. I don't fully know.

What I do see is this.

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

If I put in peoples minds that Jesus is really God the creator, Not the son whom God created everything for.

Then I superimpose on their minds to read the scriptures as Jesus and God are the same being, but different parts. In other Words, Jesus is just really God.

I remove the fact that God actually had a son, that he loved and made heir to all things, Making him out to being the one and the same person, just different parts.

The spirit of the antichrist would also like to us to believe that, and the Muslims God has no son either, as their claim is the same as the trinity Doctrine. Allah is the I am, and there is none like Allah.

1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son...........

To say Jesus is God, means God did not have a REAL son, but Jesus is part of some trinity but still God.

I am not ready to go there, and dishonor God's Begotten son.

Jesus Is Lord.

Peace Seeker · Feb 1, 2012

Brother Mike said:
First, I never disrespected anyone's beliefs. I never have gotten the least bit upset, I never personally attacked anyone.

What I meant by disrespecting peoples' beliefs, was how you posted your belief, knowing it would offend and divide people. As for personally attacking anyone, I will just say you were most certainly unkind to some here, but I'll leave it at that.

There are some scriptures I can not explain (like 3) that supports the Trinity Doctrine. One was actually posted. Isaiah 9:6

God said I AM, Jesus said I AM...... since Jesus was given everything, and God called him God, did that Make Jesus the I AM, or is Jesus also God?
A very good point, since I can't fully explain it with scriptures, but just guess what would make sense. I don't fully know.

This is why I believe that unless we truly know of what we speak - and this means me, everybody, not specifically you - we shouldn't speak. Especially on such a "hot potato" topic.

What I do see is this.

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

And what is denying the Son, in the context of these verses? Has anyone in this thread denied that Jesus is the Christ? I'm not sure what you mean to convey by these scripture. How does saying Jesus is God deny the Son?

I could say that denying Jesus is God is denying the Son!! But of course that would just open another hot, fevered pitch of typing from all concerned, and where does that get us?

If I put in peoples minds that Jesus is really God the creator, Not the son whom God created everything for.

Then I superimpose on their minds to read the scriptures as Jesus and God are the same being, but different parts. In other Words, Jesus is just really God.

I remove the fact that God actually had a son, that he loved and made heir to all things, Making him out to being the one and the same person, just different parts.

The spirit of the antichrist would also like to us to believe that, and the Muslims God has no son either, as their claim is the same as the trinity Doctrine. Allah is the I am, and there is none like Allah.

1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son...........

To say Jesus is God, means God did not have a REAL son, but Jesus is part of some trinity but still God.

Perhaps, and I do not mean disrespect in asking this, the conflict over this is in your mind, not others? Do you think if Jesus was God it would somehow detract from the Father?
I do not see how saying Jesus is God could be construed as denying that God has a Son, nor how that would dishonor Him. There are many mysteries in the bible, and this subject of the trinity most certainly is one of them.

One more thing. Since you mentioned Muslims, how will they come to (the Christian) God if we tell them that Jesus (who is the ONLY way to God) is NOT God???? They already believe he isn't! And as such, they are not going to worship Jesus or come to Him for salvation because they don't believe He is God!! Why would they?

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