Is Jesus really God?

[Peace Seeker]

Some will see this is as pointless bickering.

It is pointless in the sense that - to use a childhood analogy - it tends to turn out like a merry-go-round that both sides keep spinning, faster and faster, until no one can get off unless they are flung off and hurt. I agree that we must all endeavor to defend the faith, but perhaps not if it seems futile?

If many threads on this website I agree, once saved always saved? Speaking in tongues? Pre-destination?

Agreed. And that was the sentiment I tried to portray, that like those subjects, this one is pointless to endlessly debate if it is obvious that no one will benefit from it, your (valid) point that we must defend the faith notwithstanding.

Some people Christians are all love and peace. Yes we are called to support and love one another. We are called to be of one mind. But we are also called called to rebuke and reprove those preaching another message.
1 Tim 6 If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.

1 Tim 6:20-21 Timothy, guard the Good News which has been entrusted to you. Turn away from pointless discussions and the claims of false knowledge that people use to oppose the Christian faith. Although some claim to have knowledge, they have abandoned the faith. God's good will be with all of you.

Yes, and I think that's the problem, that people post their respective scriptures and draw the battle lines and refuse to budge. Which is why, once again, I consider these debates to be pointless. Or if I were to soften that sentiment, I could say they are at least unedifying, if not pointless.

I do agree with one point, this argument has now gotten to the point where everyone is just repeating the same stuff over and over again.

Exactly.

With all the scripture being passed around, if they aren't convinced by now... perhaps God has closed their mind.

Could be, or maybe we all learn different things, and at different paces as the Holy Spirit teaches us.

 

[Peace Seeker]

Another amazing thing about this thread is... the Holy Spirit part of the Trinity hasn't really been discussed here either.

That thought had occurred to me too. For some reason the Holy Spirit seems to be the most ignored part of the Godhead. But that is another hot potato subject I would prefer to stay out of. :wink:

 

[N8VFlower]

(ROLLING EYES) 0_0

I drew pictures all night and wrote BIG words and in bright colors in the hopes that y'all would get your big boy undies on and agree to disagree and just pray about it. It don't matter if y'all post the entire Bible WORD FOR WORD and explain what every single verse means in intricate detail...you can NOT force someone to believe something other than what they believe!!! Only them and God (THE FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT~ONE IN THE SAME) can change their mind!

If someone is living by false doctrines, and you have showed them differently using scripture references and they still do not see the TRUTH....then let it GO and LET GOD work in them!!!! (ROLLING EYES)
Yes, we are to defend the Bible, and back up what we say...but I have yet to find it where it God says " if they ain't believing, just keep forcing it on them until they have no choice but to believe, and do not bother praying to Me about it, even though it would work out better"?

Sorry y'all I ain't allowed to post my pictures that I worked so hard making...so you will just have to TRUST IN GOD! (ROLLING EYES AND LAUGHING HYSTERICALLY)

We all do interpret the scripture a bit different at times, but ain't no use in beating a dead horse! It just stirs up stink! (ROLLS EYES AGAIN) o_0

 

[Brother Mike]

The Trinity Doctrine.

PeaceKeeper:

What I meant by disrespecting peoples' beliefs, was how you posted your belief, knowing it would offend and divide people. As for personally attacking anyone, I will just say you were most certainly unkind to some here, but I'll leave it at that.

Thank You PeaceKeeper. Things only offend people who know that what they believe has lots of loopholes, or not strong enough in knowledge to defend what they believe. I have been posting on forums for long time now, and many, many back and forth opposite views on doctrine with Brother Jiggyfly over the years, whom I dearly love. Even to the believing in an Eternal punishment he believes does not exist and his little comments about me having to study more don't phase me in the bit. He has Opened my eyes, putting things in front of me I never considered, making me stronger and changing what I saw clearly by the Lord to change.

http://www.talkjesus.com/ethics-morality/38209-hell-non-followers-christ.html

That being said, I foolishly posted back to Giggles4God, knowing full well she was expressing her views, and hurting her feelings. I sent her a P.M to ask for forgiveness, and Posted her concern in the moderators room for all to see, asking for advice. I also asked that this thread be monitored, knowing Chad does believe in the Trinity.

This is why I believe that unless we truly know of what we speak - and this means me, everybody, not specifically you - we shouldn't speak. Especially on such a "hot potato" topic.

No topic should be a "Hot Potato" or "Sacred Cow" here Many denominations do not believe Jesus Is really God, many do not believe there is a Hell, many believe that we are really just angels, many believe Eve had relations with Satan, the list goes on.

I already know the few Scriptures concerning the Trinity Doctrine I can not understand, fitting them into what I see are many in the Word. If things don't match, we just don't use doctrine to explain them away, this is error. It's the Word that corrects us, and forms our doctrine, not our doctrine correcting the Word.

If a scriptures says that God, called Jesus God (Heb 1:8) God certainly was not calling himself God, but the son. If the Son was really God the creator, God would not have Made himself God again.

Did Jesus become the I AM at that point? Did God create things and give them to himself, when the scriptures says he made the planets for his son?

The Trinity doctrine takes simple scriptures and twist them saying "God did give everything to his son, but it was just part of God, the savior part, or Word part."
So now many scriptures are wrong in that God gave them to his begotten son, but really gave everything back to himself.

No longer does the Word correct us, but our doctrine corrects what is clearly in the Word. Those that refuse to see, have no issue with this, I want to know how can this be?

And what is denying the Son, in the context of these verses? Has anyone in this thread denied that Jesus is the Christ? I'm not sure what you mean to convey by these scripture. How does saying Jesus is God deny the Son?

I

could say that denying Jesus is God is denying the Son!! But of course that would just open another hot, fevered pitch of typing from all concerned, and where does that get us?

Because Brother, when I read the Word Christ, It translates to (Jesus the anointed one, and his anointing for us) The word Christ then fits perfectly being a Greek word in every scripture talking about his anointing for us, or Jesus being anointed of God.

I can do all things through Christ (The anointing) which strengthen me.

If I have a doctrine stating that Jesus is God, then in my mind where I see Jesus, I translate to being God. That removes the son, from my reading in my understanding. Anything that removes Jesus from being the son, removes the whole doctrine of salvation, that we must believe Jesus is the son of God.
Not Jesus is God. For those that can't see, they do not understand it's not OK to change the meaning of scripture. If we were to believe that Jesus is God to salvation and not Jesus is the son, God begotten the scriptures would have been clear to say so.

Perhaps, and I do not mean disrespect in asking this, the conflict over this is in your mind, not others? Do you think if Jesus was God it would somehow detract from the Father?
I do not see how saying Jesus is God could be construed as denying that God has a Son, nor how that would dishonor Him. There are many mysteries in the bible, and this subject of the trinity most certainly is one of them.

One more thing. Since you mentioned Muslims, how will they come to (the Christian) God if we tell them that Jesus (who is the ONLY way to God) is NOT God???? They already believe he isn't! And as such, they are not going to worship Jesus or come to Him for salvation because they don't believe He is God!! Why would they?

They won't, but God clearly gave Jesus all things, and God himself called him God. Nobody said Jesus was not God. The Word God is not a title, but a class. Jesus called us Gods, but nobody here wants to touch that.

All these things are eternal, and though we have some knowledge it is not clear how these things work, or can we understand everything. To not recognize that, and attempting to cram every scripture into a Doctrine when the scriptures clearly say otherwise will keep one in the dark. It's best to say, I don't know......... asking for more revelation.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[N8VFlower]

he who beats dead horse stir up stink :speaker::whistle:

 

[gdemoss]

Many reasons.

Why should the discussion continue?

Is it really just beating a dead horse?

Is it possible to change ones mind by what we say?

As I have read the bible repeatedly, I have been changed. Very little of what anyone else has ever said has altered my perception or view of scripture. I do remember one occasion when Peaceseeker helped me see an error that I was making and I appreciated the intervention.

Jesus spoke of blindness in others and the blindness in those who try to help them. He said that one first must remove the beam from their own eye in order to see clearly how to remove the speck in his brothers eye. Jesus didn't get into many doctrinal disputes with others. What he did was address the sin that was in their lives.

For years their was a veil of sin over my heart that kept me from being able to enter into the holiest of holies in my temple where the Holy Spirit dwells. False doctrine permeated my beliefs because it aided me in dealing with the knowledge that I was still continuing in sin and guilt weighed upon me heavily. Heresy takes care of that for you. You can continue in sin without flinching if you just believe that Jesus is God and he is the only one who can live without sin in his life.

To admit the truth that Jesus is only the Son of God brings on the implication that you can, and therefore must, be like he was when he was here or your just a child of disobedience whom the wrath of God still abides upon. To bring up scripture that speaks of all of the things relating to being God is to misunderstand what was truly happening during Jesus' ministry years here on earth. God the Father was here indwelling his Son through all 7 of his spirits. The fullness of the divinity was in him bodily. Many don't seem to understand that God the Father has spoken through many different vessels of his creation to others. They are his words coming out of the mouth of another. Jesus is no different in this case. As Hebrews clearly states God the Father has spoken to us in these last days through his Son.

If God the Father wanted to he could simultaneously speak through every living creature upon the face of the earth all at once. Jesus can only do what God the Father will allow him to do and it pleased God the Father to give the Son all authority in both heaven and earth over every creature both living and dead. These things can be spoken of and talked over for days, months and years to no avail though if the ones being told have not truly sought the righteousness of God in their lives. God will not allow them to understand. He will not reveal his truth unto them.

When I was deep in sin, God called to me and drew me to places where my sin would be addressed. As I repented of various sin, he drew me even closer and revealed more truth unto me. In the fullness of time he thought it best to introduce me to his Son who would show me that even though I had made great strides in reform, I was still lacking very much. I held to the belief that I could never be like him "this side of heaven" as it was said but I kept reading scripture and scripture kept telling me that I was wrong. I couldn't kick against the pricks and finally had to admit that I wasn't really trying to be like Jesus because nobody liked him. He was always pointing out how they weren't going to make it if they didn't stop sinning and turn toward God the Father. Those who were around him, like Peter, didn't lack the ability to be without sin, they lacked the understanding as Jesus clearly points out many times when he says "are you still yet without understanding" or "why don't you understand my speech".

These discussions continue to go on for Gods purpose though. He, through his Holy Spirit or some other ministering angel, guides us and uses what we write to leave the perfect message behind for that lost soul who is googling for answers. He comes here, finds the missing piece to his puzzle and moves on to the next place God has set before him in his journey to a pure relationship with God.

In the end, Righteousness = Revelation. If you can honestly read what Paul wrote to Timothy about these perilous times that we live in and say that you aren't mentioned on the list then you have a fighting chance of being shown the truth. If you are on the list, I'd suggest working toward getting off the list through obedience to the Word of God, who is Jesus Christ in the flesh, that God might be moved to continue to reveal himself further unto you.

Seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness. Of course, people will read what I wrote and speak evil of me saying that I just think that I am holier than thou and a liar, but Gods word comforts me when it says that in the end the way of truth (actually following Jesus) will be evil spoken of.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

 

[N8VFlower]

@gdemoss~ i agree w/ what you said...maybe they will bury the horse and stop beating it!

why not agree to disagree...pray for one another and ask God to lead you to the truth...that would be best...don't y'all think?

God Bless!!

 

[Peace Seeker]

PeaceKeeper:


Thank You PeaceKeeper. Things only offend people who know that what they believe has lots of loopholes, or not strong enough in knowledge to defend what they believe.

Brother Mike,

I'm quite certain the many people that oppose your belief on this subject would say yours has loopholes too, so your point is somewhat moot.
And perhaps you haven't considered the possibility that just because someone doesn't quite have enough knowledge to defend what he believes, it doesn't necessarily mean he is wrong.
It may just mean he is in a state of ongoing learning and hasn't reached full knowledge yet, but nonetheless still has enough to be able to firmly grasp the position he holds, without necessarily being able to fully convey the reasoning behind his belief. IE: he may have enough knowledge but may not be gifted enough linguistically or otherwise to sufficiently state his point.

I love to study things on my own about quantum physics and related subjects, and I am confident I could hold my own in a friendly discussion with others about it. Having said that, I am not a professor with a doctorate degree, so even though I would have enough information to know what I believe and why, I would still be unable to match wits with one. Not because my views on quantum physics are wrong or have loopholes in them, but simply because I wouldn't have as much information or learning as he would. My point is a little bit of truth is still the truth.

I don't know if any of that makes sense or not, but it's 2 am and I'm very tired and need to get to bed, so it makes sense to me!
Also, in your experience does the Spirit always (if at all) teach by giving big, complete chunks of information? As in, "here you go Brother Mike, here's some instant expertise in _______ for ya!" (fill in the blank). The Spirit teaches us only the truth, and what we receive from Him is right, whether that teaching comes in bite-sized morsels, or larger pieces of information. But I feel I have already belabored that point.......

I have been posting on forums for long time now, and many, many back and forth opposite views on doctrine with Brother Jiggyfly over the years, whom I dearly love. Even to the believing in an Eternal punishment he believes does not exist and his little comments about me having to study more don't phase me in the bit. He has Opened my eyes, putting things in front of me I never considered, making me stronger and changing what I saw clearly by the Lord to change.

I am not against free discussion, as long as it has a tone of humility about it on both sides, in so much as that is possible. And as long as it is not going to get people at each others' throats, which I don't think helps anyone.
And I don't consider it to be in the spirit of humility if one side has a "I'm right, you're wrong, end of story" kind of attitude.
Is it really worth it to sway 1 person to the opposing belief and in doing so alienate the other 99? I don't think so, but I'm sure some would.

That being said, I foolishly posted back to Giggles4God, knowing full well she was expressing her views, and hurting her feelings. I sent her a P.M to ask for forgiveness, and Posted her concern in the moderators room for all to see, asking for advice. I also asked that this thread be monitored, knowing Chad does believe in the Trinity.

I don't even know what you said to her, I was just responding to your previous statement that you hadn't personally attacked anyone.

No topic should be a "Hot Potato" or "Sacred Cow" here Many denominations do not believe Jesus Is really God, many do not believe there is a Hell, many believe that we are really just angels, many believe Eve had relations with Satan, the list goes on.

I agree, there is a broad spectrum of beliefs among Christians, here being no different. But I'm not yet resolved on the matter of whether
it is good to bring everything in to the open, all the time. A little sensitivity is sometimes needed?

If I have a doctrine stating that Jesus is God, then in my mind where I see Jesus, I translate to being God. That removes the son, from my reading in my understanding.

I don't see it the same way. I am married, but calling myself a man doesn't mean I am not a husband too.

Anything that removes Jesus from being the son, removes the whole doctrine of salvation, that we must believe Jesus is the son of God.

I just don't see how any of this debate can ever be resolved, without divine intervention. Here's an illustration in regards to your statement here : My wife knows I am a man and a husband, but my primary role and identity is arguably that of husband. Other than serving the Lord as best I can in my life, my primary duties and identity is that of a husband.
What's my point? It's that just because I may primarily identify myself as a husband, it doesn't mean I am not also a man. So too, identifying Jesus as the Son of God neither necessitates that that's ALL He is. And saying He is God doesn't have to imply that He isn't the Son, IMO.

For those that can't see, they do not understand it's not OK to change the meaning of scripture.

I agree that it's not okay to change the meaning of scripture, but I think it can be reasonably argued that we ALL unwittingly change the meaning of some scripture to some degree. To say otherwise is to say we know it all.
We all learn at different paces, according to God's individual timetables for us. And I will venture to say, sometimes we "unlearn" pet doctrines as well, at different paces, according to how much we are open to the Spirit's teaching.

If we were to believe that Jesus is God to salvation and not Jesus is the son, God begotten the scriptures would have been clear to say so.

If the scriptures were totally clear in all ways we wouldn't have to study them, would we? :wink:

Jesus called us Gods, but nobody here wants to touch that.

What is there to touch about it? If we are a "chip off the old block", so to speak, that statement would make sense. I know Jesus didn't mean gods in the same sense that new-agers mean it.

 

[brakelite]

I haven't read through all this thread, but appreciate that many scriptures have been offered on behalf of both sides of the discussion, so what I am about to present may have already been offered, so apologise if this is the case. That said, as far as my contribution is concerned, for me it is enough. For me it is entirely sufficient to rest my faith on. For me it is conclusive. This may not convince others however, for they may see contradictions in other verses, or at least difficulties they cannot cope with, thus they would rather not commit themselves either way having doubts. But for me, what follows is the foundation. If anything else seems to contradict or offer something different, then it is not the fault of the scripture, but our understanding of it.

In Revelation 1:8 we read: I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

In order to pinpoint specifically who this refers to absolutley, whether the Father or the Son, we must read on....

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Here is a further cue. Whoever the Alpha and Omega is, He is also the First and the Last. Let us read further....

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Okay, here it is conclusive. The First and Last refers to Him who was once dead, but now lives. Clearly, this refers specifically to Jesus Christ, Whom we all recognise and confess is the Son of God. Also, the descriptive title of Alpha and Omega also applies to Jesus. Let us read on....

Revel.22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

So there we have the clincher. Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and Last, the Beginning and the End. He Himself testifies to this, and as it reads in verse 8, the Almighty! Who can doubt that this refers to God? But let us not leave it there. Let us go to Isaiah, and three chapters that focus exculsively on identifying the one and true God, the Creator of all things. Who is He???? In the midst of these chapters is one gem that puts it all together...

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD
(03068 הוהי Y@hovah yeh-ho-vaw’

from 01961; n pr dei; {See TWOT on 484 @@ "484a"}

AV-LORD 6510, GOD 4, JEHOVAH 4, variant 1; 6519

Jehovah =" the existing One"

1) the proper name of the one true God
1a) unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of 0136 )

the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Now whatever issues some have reconciling the above with the truth that Jesus is also the Son, I suggest you take it up with Him, and not cast doubts in others minds because they prefer to simply believe the word of God as it stands and leave mysteries to be understood at a later time.

 

[Kit Carson]

Well I was asked a simple question this week.

Why is the Bible so hard to understand, why are there so many views and opinions about it all? How can I believe in the Bible if there is so much confusion and contradiction?

My answer was also simple. Gods word and the Bible is very simple. It is the very basis of simple. All with an open heart and willingness to accept Gods word have no issues with it.

It is man who reads it and with his own wish or desire to have it his way, so puts his way to it. So pages of articles and discussions result and from this comes the confusion.

It is fairly simple to me as I understand the Bible, there are more than one at the Godhead. Each is a part of the whole, but each is an entity of itself.

And the lamb will and does sit at the right hand of God, and the Holy spirit is given to us for teaching and to guide us, and pull us back when we do doubt things.

So it is very simple to me......but that is me.

Kit

 

[Brother Mike]

Thank you!!!

Thank you Peace Seeker!

I don't see it the same way. I am married, but calling myself a man doesn't mean I am not a husband too.

But being a man, you can also be called a son. I understand the concept.

brakelite
Very awesome and well thought out post.

Kit Carson. I always like reading your stuff.

Peace Seeker.

What is there to touch about it? If we are a "chip off the old block", so to speak, that statement would make sense. I know Jesus didn't mean gods in the same sense that new-agers mean it.

No certainly Jesus did not, but we are in the same class as God, else we would not be children as each seed produces after it's own kind.
What some do not realize is the Trinity Doctrine removes man from the God head, and separates us. There is three in one, we are not included.

Jesus said we are one in him and the father, that in its self destroys the trinity doctrines concept of 3 in 1, As the Trinity Doctrine uses the same exact language to classify itself.

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

The scripture says we don't know what we shall be, The Trinity Doctrine excludes us though, claiming they know.

I have not gotten into the other parts of this yet, just the same surface scriptures as in other post.

and not ready to address Breaklites use of some Hebrew words yet. Excellent post and would have looked like one of my own a few years ago.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[N8VFlower]

poor horse...:lazy::disagree:

 

[Robert44]

This is the most important thing in Christianity today, this is the one thing that if we do not believe Jesus is God we will be sent away from him for ever. Jesus did claim to be God and no there is no room for debate. Jesus said any man that does not believe I am who I said I am will die in his sins. By useing the word (I am) he was refuring to himself as God. Just as he was when He said I am the way the truth and the life. I am the light of the world, I am the good sheperd, I am the door, I am the real bread and the real drink. I am the bread of life, and many more. You will stand before him and what you believe about him will either save or condem you. what is it going to be?

 

[gdemoss]

This is the most important thing in Christianity today, this is the one thing that if we do not believe Jesus is God we will be sent away from him for ever. Jesus did claim to be God and no there is no room for debate. Jesus said any man that does not believe I am who I said I am will die in his sins. By useing the word (I am) he was refuring to himself as God. Just as he was when He said I am the way the truth and the life. I am the light of the world, I am the good sheperd, I am the door, I am the real bread and the real drink. I am the bread of life, and many more. You will stand before him and what you believe about him will either save or condem you. what is it going to be?

My bible says that what you believe will show up in your works/deeds and therefore you will be judged by your works deeds.

Judged by works/deeds
Rom:5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God.


Judged by works/deeds
Rev:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Judged by works/deeds
Rev:11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

judged by works/deeds
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

A man who believes that Jesus is the Son of God, whom he can be just like walking as he walked when he was here, will have works/deeds to match.

A man who believes that Jesus is God, whom he cannot be like this side of death, will have works/deeds to match.

Both will appear before the throne. One will have spent a life long pursuit resisting sin unto blood, even unto death, emulating the Christ who's blood purchased him. The other will have stumbled his way through life going through periods of hot and cold because his he didn't have a faith that would allow works to match that which Jesus did while he was here as he is sure he cannot. Both will have lived out their faith. One will be told to depart from him because he is a worker of iniquity. And you believe that it is the one who actually picked up his cross and denied himself daily.

Works do not save. Works condemn. That is why we are judged by them. Works justify faith. You must have the faith of faithful Abraham to be saved as per Romans 4. But as it is written, the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

I hope to see you spotless and blameless before the Lamb at his coming, having cleansed your hands and purified your heart.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

 

[N8VFlower]

poor horse is now beat into glue....:cry-animated:

 

[Brother Mike]

The Start of the Trinity Doctrine.

Robert44

This is the most important thing in Christianity today, this is the one thing that if we do not believe Jesus is God we will be sent away from him for ever.

could you please provide a scripture that says we must believing Jesus Is God to be saved?

Also what translation are you using?

My Bible says to be saved, we must believe Jesus is the son of God, it does not say to be saved we must believe Jesus is God.

Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

1Co 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

1Jn 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

What are we suppose to believe and Confess again to be saved?

If believing Jesus was just God, and one needs to believe that for any salvation, then why did the Apostles who gave the Word of God get it wrong?



Jesus Is Lord.

 

[N8VFlower]

Here are scripture references you requested:

Matthew 28:19
John 14:26; 15:26
2Corinthians 13:14
1Peter 1:2

The Godhead:
Acts 17:29
Romans 1:20

Christ, Fullness of the Godhead:
Colossians 1:19; 2:9

Almighty God the Father
2Corinthians 6:17,18
Revelation 21:22

Almighty God the Son:
Matthew 1:20-23;3:17
Matthew 17:5
Luke 1:35
Romans 1-3, 4
1John 1:1-3;4:15
Revelation 11:15, 17
Revelation 15:3,4

Almighty God, the Holy Spirit
Luke 1:34, 35
1Corinthians 2:11-14; 3:16
1Thessalonians 4:8

1John 5:5-7
"Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? This he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ:not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE"

I read the KJV or NKJV, what version to you read?

Yes, Jesus is the Son of God..that is true, but remember, God is omnipresent and can be in all places at one time!


To imply that the Trinity is not one, but 3 separate entities, is saying that we Christians worship 3 Gods that are all their own beings.

That my friend IS false doctrines!

Have you read Matthew 1:18-25? "Immanuel" translates into "God with us"

How was the Blood of Jesus perfect and Holy if He was not God?

How else can we call Jesus our Savior if He is not God?

Jesus had no mortal human father. Why? Because if He had then He would have just been a human and nothing more.

In order to pay for our sin debts, God had to do it. NO mortal man could have done so.

ONLY GOD HIMSELF could have payed our sin debts..therefore GOD took form of a man in order to pay our sin debts!

If Jesus is not God, then why are we to ask Jesus for forgiveness of our sins? Why are we to pick up the cross and follow Him?

Christ is GOD!

My friend...you are believing FALSE DOCTRINE! We do not tell you this because we like to argue or insist that our way is the correct way...we are telling you this because it says it over and over in the Bible that God/Jesus/Holy Spirit are ONE!

Why don't you ask God to guide you on the true answer. I have relied a lot on just asking God questions that boggle my mind. He always leads me to it.

Ok, let me encourage you to do this please...before you reply to this post again Brother Mike, do some research on this. No disrespect towards your preacher or any person who you seek for spiritual advice, but do some research, look up the subject online, go to the library with a note book and take notes and seek the right answer and have God lead you as you do!

I have dozen's of notebooks doing research on Biblical topics that I either simply did not understand or just wanted to be sure I was following correct doctrines. I do not claim to know what every thing in the Bible says and I am far from perfect but, I tell you this because I had believed some false things too at one time, I was lead astray and did not even realize it.

I do hope that you take no offence at what I said...I am not attacking you, please do not think I am, I am just trying to encourage you to research this.

I can see that you feel your point is correct just as much as I feel that mine is. I just wanna help because on this thread we are just running in place it seems.

What more can be said really?

When you reply...share what your thoughts are on these verses posted here.

God Bless you and may He lead you to the truth!

 

[Robert44]

Only God Is to be worshipped but look at this Mike
Hebrews 1:6 - Angels are instructed by God to worship Jesus.
Luke 24:52 - Even after He had ascended back to heaven, they worshipped Him.
Matthew 14:33 - After Jesus had calmed the storm, the disciples worshipped Him saying He was the Son of God.
John 5:23 - All men should honor the Son "just as" they honor the Father. To fail to give this honor to the Son is to fail to properly honor the Father.
The jews also understood that to be the son of God was to be equall with God.
1 Corinthians 2:8; James 2:1 - Jesus is called the "Lord of glory," just as God in the Old Testament is called the "King of glory" (Psalm 24:7-10).

 

[Brother Mike]

Thank you every one.

I have to be a Moderator here for a few words:

I would like to remind everyone that this is a non-denominational forum. The only Correct doctrine accepted is that Jesus is Lord, and there is no other way to God but through the work of the cross, and our Lord Jesus.

Jesus is God and worthy of praise, the Blood of the precious lamb washing away our sins. There is no other way to salvation, no other way to God.

Also, the bible in full, (Not the added books of the apocrypha or any other added work) is full authority and truth. Any other truth outside the Word of God is considered false Doctrine on the forums.

We pray to God in the name of Jesus, there are no other idols to pray to or ask for divine Help.

In Keeping with the above, every member here is equal and important. Moderators are here to only serve, and have no other status above any member, nor is anyone's doctrine recognized as more correct Than any other Member, keeping with the above posted.

This messages is not targeting anyone, but a reminder to all that read it.
================================================

N8VFlower

Thank you for your love of the Word of God, and posting your answers to scriptures.

I do hope that you take no offence at what I said...I am not attacking you, please do not think I am, I am just trying to encourage you to research this.

Please be insured that I never get offended, nor do I even take thought about others who do get upset when their belief system is questioned, posting harsh remarks toward me. You should see some of the P.M's I have gotten in the past. I have seen about everything, and every type of doctrine, even the threads of those that do not believe in a eternal hell, Predestination, serpent seed, Angelic Humans, the list goes on.

Ok, let me encourage you to do this please...before you reply to this post again Brother Mike, do some research on this. No disrespect towards your preacher or any person who you seek for spiritual advice, but do some research, look up the subject online, go to the library with a note book and take notes and seek the right answer and have God lead you as you do!

You don't really want me to post back to your answers. Everything is proved by scriptures, not a believe system. I can't prove truth by what I want to believe, nor can you. Scripture is final authority.
I will give you a few examples, you don't have to post back though.

I read the KJV, but will use any other translation at times to help the reader see more clearly if it's in line with the KJV. So, just a few.... then I'll let it alone.

Almighty God the Son:

I never questioned Jesus being God with us. The KJV clearly states that God was manifest in the flesh. Nor is God any less with anyone else if your with them, as God said I will walk in my people, Being filled with the Holy Spirit, God in you and I. Nor did I question that God did not send his son as a baby to Mary.

There is no scripture though that reads God the son. As I posted above actual scriptures, Salvation is based on believing that Jesus is the son of God, not the other way around.

Almighty God the Father
2Corinthians 6:17,18
Revelation 21:22

??????? God the father, I think we established that already. Only one scriptures Possibly make Jesus to be father, that is in Isaiah, however it's also the way you translate Hebrews. I won't get into that now.

How was the Blood of Jesus perfect and Holy if He was not God?

Scripture reference that God's blood was used?
Scripture reference That the Blood of Jesus was accectable because it was God's blood? Could it be Jesus did not sin, being a perfect sacrifice?

Have you read Matthew 1:18-25? "Immanuel" translates into "God with us"

Once again, I never questioned this.

To imply that the Trinity is not one, but 3 separate entities, is saying that we Christians worship 3 Gods that are all their own beings.

I never implied this, one has to assume that Trinity is a bible concept before asking this question, since trinity is a man made word the idea stemmed from pagan religion, adopted by the Roman Catholic Church. Don't take my word for it, Google it.

The Trinity doctrine did not even get birth until 300 years after the last book of the bible was written. It started in the Nicea council by the Roman emperor Constantine who had the final say in religious matters. Having already incorporated the concept of Pagan religion making Making Mary (many believe from the concept of Diana) also God's Mother. Hence the 3 in 1 concept was established by Rome, along with Holy Water to keep vampires away, and Purgatory where we Pay to get loved ones out of torment. He got the idea of Trinity possibly from the Babylonians concept of their god, where the concept steamed from.

No thank you, I'll pass. Once again, don't take my word for it, Google it.

If Jesus is not God, then why are we to ask Jesus for forgiveness of our sins? Why are we to pick up the cross and follow Him?

After the work of the Cross, could you give one scripture where we go to Jesus to ask for forgiveness? Are there any scriptures where you and I can also get someone forgiven?

I have dozen's of notebooks doing research on Biblical topics that I either simply did not understand or just wanted to be sure I was following correct doctrines. I do not claim to know what every thing in the Bible says and I am far from perfect but, I tell you this because I had believed some false things too at one time, I was lead astray and did not even realize it.

I certainly do not know everything, not even the full concept of what we are discussing here, as the relationship of God and Jesus is eternal and we are on earth unable to see things as they really are.

I have one question for you.

The Name of God, what he called himself, not what the Jewish people called him Is plural, in Hebrew it's called a Uni-Plural noun, like we have English for Family, or baseball team.

Gen 1:26 And God 'ĕlôhı̂ym (being more than one) said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

This comes from the Word 'ĕlôahh which is singular and mostly used in the Book of Job

Elohiym never meant one God, but made God a class, not a title or person. Why is that?

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God (Singular used here) beside me? yea, there is no God (tsoor as noted was a perception by the translators, and never meant God in Hebrew, only used one other time as God, Should have been translated rock, or refuge); I know not any.


Jesus Is Lord.

 

[N8VFlower]

I am glad that you are not offended Bro. Mike, I very strongly disagree with what you say, but as for writing mean spirited pm's, no, I will not do that to you...I save it for my ex husbands..LOL! Just tell it like it is from your POV, and I will mine. :cute:

BTW, yes, I was really wanting to know your answers....I am a big girl, I won't run off crying or anything.

I am trying to understand the way you interpret scripture. Why you believe what you believe. Not meaning personal issues, but why you believe one verse means one thing when I believe it means another is what I am trying to say.

That...and this thread is seriously beating that poor horse into glue....

There are many things that "mainstream" (for lack if a better word) Christians believe that I do not. I am a Christian, but I don't believe something just because a preacher said to (no offence to any pastors here!), I like to know the roots of things...like why we do this..why can't we do that...and so forth.

Anyway, I understand this is a non denominational forum, and that we are all not going to believe the same things. I don't want to fight about things...compare notes and learn...agree to disagree. I'm sure that if I was to list things I believe in, I would be admitted to a psych ward probably! LOL!:weirdo:

Anyway, personally, I feel this thread is beat to death. I believe what I believe...you believe what you believe.

God Bless you my friend.