Is Jesus really God?

[Brother Mike]

One verse.

yes, and thank you, within these forums many Doctrines that stay within the boundaries of what I post are accepted and as valid. I did not say they where correct, but to be non-denominational you can't exclude anyone that believes the Word of God, and Jesus is the Savior.

Not meaning personal issues, but why you believe one verse means one thing when I believe it means another is what I am trying to say.

I do my best to not interpret scripture with Doctrine, but other scripture.
I know this is not reality, but an attempt.

for example you asked.

How was the Blood of Jesus perfect and Holy if He was not God?

There is no scripture, not one that mentions the blood of Jesus was perfect because of who he was, or who God is.

The Scripture does say he did not sin, making his blood perfect for a sacrifice for all.

You read that with a doctrine, I read what I see is written about the blood of the lamb. Had Jesus sinned he would not have made a perfect sacrifice.

So that answers your question as to why we see it different.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[N8VFlower]

Still, I disagree,:confused2: but anyway, thank you, and God bless you and yours.eace:

 

[Grace]

I tried to read all the post but I did not see these verses posted.

Compare Isaiah 40:3 with Matthew 3:1-3:
"A voice of one calling: "In the desert prepare the way for the LORD [Jehovah]; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God."" (Isaiah 40:3)

"In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah: "A voice of one calling in the desert, 'Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.'"" (Matthew 3:1-3)
In the Old Testament, Isaiah prophesied about someone calling out to prepare the way for Jehovah God. In the New Testament, Matthew tells us that John the Baptist is the fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy. John the Baptist told people to prepare the way for Jesus, and therefore Jesus is Jehovah God.

 

[Brother Mike]

It reminds me.......

This reminds me of defending God's will to Heal us. A whole bunch of scriptures that clearly Point to God our healer, Jesus our high priest, and will to heal, never changing.

Yet, people want to bring up Job, Paul's thorn, Jacobs hip, and ignore the rest.

I wonder if that is being diligent in the study and care of the Word of God?

Then my concern about the translators. They added a bunch of stuff to clear up things. Even this whole scripture.

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Should read.

Youngs literal Translation (YLT)
1Jn 5:7 because three are who are testifying

The NT apostles writing never had a Trinity concept. Jesus was the Son of God, and God was God. Scripture after scripture shows this very clearly.

Certainly the Apostles were not confused?

Why was 1Jn 5:7 Changed? It certainly did not appear until the 1600's. The same reason the Apocrypha showed up in the first editions of the KJV.

Bible.org Daniel B. Wallace

The Trinitarian formula (known as the Comma Johanneum) made its way into the third edition of Erasmus’ Greek NT (1522) because of pressure from the Catholic Church.

So, we are left with a few scattered Scriptures in attempts to prove a Doctrine made up by the Roman Catholic Church. Despite the hundreds of others that tell us different. The Catholics grabbed the concept of Trinity, One God, many different parts from pagan religion.

Is Jesus God?

Here is another issue............ The answer is Yes!!!

The problem comes from Church doctrine and lack of understanding. It's why I love Talk Jesus, as you find many post that bust through these religious Doctrines. Advanced Study can be found here!!!! That asks those hard questions.

It all comes down to What is a god? Not who is God. Because of limited knowledge we get from a lot of churches, the concept is never understood. God is a German Word, and has lost it's concept and meaning in the English Translations.

Jesus called us gods............... That presents another issue.
That is a whole other study..........

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, `Is it not having been written in your law: I said, ye are gods?

So, now we have to look at what God said, and how God defined himself. This has been another issue for those that hold to some Trinity Doctrine.

God called himself to the Hebrew writers 'ĕlôhı̂ym. Sounds great!!! we know that, but the issue is that Elohiym is Plural!!!! More than one.

'ĕlôhı̂ym
BDB Definition:
1) (plural)
1a) rulers, judges
1b) divine ones
1c) angels
1d) gods

There is only one God, like God that was Begotten of God.

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Act 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Jesus is the only Begotten son of God, God speaks to him, gives him all things. God is not speaking to himself, or is delusional pretending to have a son.

By the Lord's Jesus birth right, he is just as much God, as God the creator is. God is a Nature, or class, not a person.

Jesus was here with God from the start of everything, no less God. It's God's son. The one that God sent to die for us.

The Antichrist.

1Jn 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Notice how important that scripture is? It does not say to believe that Jesus is really just God. It says we are to believe that Jesus is the SON of God.

Any other concept that removes Jesus as being God's Actually son, is in Error. This is what the Trinity Doctrine attempts to do.

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:

So, any concept that would make one think that Jesus is just really God, is the concept of the Antichrist.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Grace]

Still searching..

Bro. Mike,
I am not dogmatic about this doctrine because I have not studied it out completely but what I have come across...well, I have still have alot of questions.

When we look at Old Testament passages which refer to Jehovah and compare them to New Testament passages which refer to Jesus, it seems that Jesus is Jehovah God.
Like the one that I posted and others...

 

[Grace]

another observation

Old Testament passages that the LORD (Jehovah) "created," "formed," "redeemed," is the "Savior," is the "Holy One," and is the "King." In the New Testament we are told that Jesus created and formed all things, that Jesus is the Savior, that Jesus is the Holy One, and that Jesus is the King:
Is. 43:1,3,7 11-12,14,15
John 1:1-3,14; Col.1:15-16; Luke 2:11, 34-35; Mark 1:21-24; Matt.25;34

Also compare Isaiah 44:6 with Revelation 22:12-13

On earth Jesus knew that He was God, He said that He was God, He did things that only God can do, He accepted worship that rightfully only belongs to God, and the Jewish religious leaders tried to stone Him for blasphemy because they understood that He was claiming to be God.

Just some other thoughts!

 

[jari]

(Joh 14:9) Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?

he that hath seen me hath seen the Father;

and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

 

[Brother Mike]

Thank you Grace.

I have one Doctrine Grace. God is good!!! I know nothing else but living for the Lord, and that he is so Good to us.

Thank you for the scriptures Grace.

They all have been covered though. What do you make of these?


Gen 1:26 And God ('ĕlôhı̂ym More than 1) said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Who is God speaking to? If Jesus Is the I am from the start?


Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.


Did God sacrifice Himself? Making what Abraham did meaningless? Or did God actually send his only Begotten son, and sacrificed him?

The Word was made flesh........................... John 1:1-3

Jesus came from the Word of God!!! No question about that. He was born from the Word in Mary's Womb.

If I use the same logic as the trinity Doctrine.............

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

We must also be God.............

Jesus said, the Father and I are one, if you have seen me, you have seen the father.

This is proof that Jesus is just really God. The trinity concept.

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


Applying the Trinity logic, I guess we are also God.

Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:..............

Jesus said he was the first, and the end of everything. First and last.
However, it also helps if we take scripture in it's context, and read the Whole chapter, and not take verses out of their settings.

False Doctrine always will have a narrow view, and ignores everything else.

What was Jesus the first at? The bible tells us..........

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Act 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

What did Jesus say?

Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

He was the firstborn of many brothers..............

Grace:

On earth Jesus knew that He was God, He said that He was God, He did things that only God can do

Jesus never one time said he was God. Not once.

Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit, the same Spirit we are suppose to be filled with. Healing, laying on of hands, are still real today. Raising the dead, Miracles, the Lord still confirms his word with signs following.

Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[jari]

Jesus is God who became flesh. so he wasnt as God on earth but as human on earth having role of son... but He was still God the Father on earth.

Jesus said He will come to us (Holy Spirit):

(Joh 14:18) I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

(Joh 14:19) Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

(Joh 14:20) At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
​

the interesting thing is Jesus has existed from beginning and all things have been made through Him. He is the First and the last:

(Rev 1:17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
​

So what was before Jesus? nothing. What is after Him? Nothing.
He is alpha & the omega

(Rev 1:18) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
​

He is the Almighty:

(Rev 1:8) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.​

.

 

[Grace]

Gen 1:26 And God ('ĕlôhı̂ym More than 1) said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Who is God speaking to? If Jesus Is the I am from the start?

This three in one is a hard one for me to get my mind around! I was taught trinity but never really understood it! Again I am searching out so many truths!

I have ask the same questions to other people..how can he pray to himself? How can he sit on the right hand of himself? etc.

Gen. talks about us, I see God, Holy Spirit and Jesus! Are they one or separate?? I see us as body, soul and spirit...are we one are separate? If he created us body soul and spirit after their image..yet we are one.

Just some more thoughts!

 

[Brother Mike]

Thank you grace.

Thank you Grace.............

To be Honest........ I don't think we will fully know until we get there, and those things hidden become clear.

This three in one is a hard one for me to get my mind around! I was taught trinity but never really understood it! Again I am searching out so many truths!

Because it can't be logically explained. I also grew up with the Trinity Doctrine.

Think of a egg, that has a white, and yoke...... all egg, with different parts...... You can be a mother, and a daughter, you can be a grandmother.

That is the logic.......

Problem is, a egg white is not a egg, and a yoke is not a egg. You can be a Mother, but you have to have children to do that.

A car has a motor and tires, but a tire is not a car.

The Logic is severely flawed.

The Spirit of God..........

God is a spirit, the Holy Spirit is a spirit. Isa, talks about the seven spirits of God, as does Revelation.
I have no idea.

Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

The Holy Spirit is not Jesus, He will testify of Jesus. The Holy Spirit is not God, Jesus called him the father. Yet God said he will walk in us. God in us. Must be the power side of God, the Holy Spirit.

Gen:
Let us make man in OUR image........... Two are there. We are not angels, so scratch them off, We are not in the image of the Holy Spirit, so scratch that off.

Jesus was standing right there with his Father.

The whole concept of 'ĕlôhı̂ym is two, or family.Jesus here with God at the start of the whole thing. We are created in their class, like them, fit to be called children. Elohiym is a Hebrew Uni-Plural noun. Much like we say Baseball team.

Jesus said he only speaks what his father says....... The Word of God made flesh.

The trinity concept removes us from the Godhead. Takes us out of the family. This is a Catholic doctrine.

Jesus said we are one with him and the father....


Man, spirit, soul and body:

This is a good question. The bible talks about God's arm, his hand, his eyes, his back..... yet he is a spirit. Our spirit is created in his image. He gave us a body to move around on earth.

I can imagine that if God sits next to Jesus, as we are told, he would have to be formed to use a chair.

We will know soon enough...... I just want wants true, and all the scriptures have to line up for me. I will certainly have to wait to find out everything though.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[jari]

Gen:
Let us make man in OUR image........... Two are there. We are not angels, so scratch them off, We are not in the image of the Holy Spirit, so scratch that off.

'

yeah this is the interesting thing that There's Father and son but only one God.

something little difficult for us to understand.

But there's one throne of God also and Jesus is sitting on it.

So God who came on earth were obedient as son and submitted under Father. Yet is now back in heaven.
hard to understand but like i always say its just possible for God to be in multiple places in same time.

 

[Brother Mike]

Ok.

So God who came on earth were obedient as son and submitted under Father. Yet is now back in heaven.
hard to understand but like i always say its just possible for God to be in multiple places in same time.

Could it be hard to understand, because God actually had a son, that he sent to earth to die for us? That Jesus was just not some split personality God had? but a real son, that loved him?

If I say it's black Jari, I know you think it's White....

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[jari]

Could it be hard to understand, because God actually had a son, that he sent to earth to die for us? That Jesus was just not some split personality God had? but a real son, that loved him?

If I say it's black Jari, I know you think it's White....

Jesus Is Lord.

Jesus is first and last. not second and second last.

and it says in John Word became flesh and all things were created by the Word.

...

 

[El Hombre viejo]

no offense meant, this is a question i read someplace else. care to answer?

"Is Jesus really God? Did he actually claim to be God? Is there any room for ambiguity?"

Wow!! Some of the questions... Look...

ohn 1:1-2 (King James Version)

John 1

<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-26046">1</sup>In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-26047">2</sup>The same was in the beginning with God.


JESUS is the WORD of GOD HE is GOD!!

 

[Son of Thunder]

Yes, Jesus is God

 

[N8VFlower]

what is the purpose of this thread? i mean seriously.....all that is being accomplished is more and more arguing. no point has been made to convince the other person to see the others POV so why keep running in circles?
i personally believe in the Trinity-Father/Son/Holy Spirit being one. i know others believe different, and that is fine. i can't force you too see my view and you can't force me to see yours. you see one verse of scripture one way, and i see it another way. if you feel like someone is distorting scripture the best and most powerful thing you can do is pray, not hold them down and shove it down throats! why not end this thread and move on to something else?

 

[philosopher]

I just want to firstly say that I believe that Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and God the Father - are all God - but still distinct persons of the Godhead.

And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. - Matthew 3:16-17

This verse speaks volumes for me that the trinity exists. However, if my brothers and sisters hold a non-trinitarian view from scripture, I don't honestly think it's a salvation issue and I hope there wouldn't be division. God ponders the heart more than slight differences in doctrine.

 

[Son of Thunder]

this subject separates all the cults, sects & religions etc...

from christianity - JESUS IS GOD

HALLELUJAH!!!

 

[Strypes]

When I saw the title of this thread, I thought some Jehovah's Witnesses were trolling here. What I found were "Christians behaving badly"..

Jesus is God. God in the flesh who came to defeat sin IN THE FLESH.

And "it is finished".

In this thread somewhere the passage in Matthew regarding Jesus before the Jewish leaders when they condemned him to death for blasphemy may already be posted. I didn't see it, but I only skim read some of the post because so many were filled with bickering.

The passage that seals it for me (that Jesus IS indeed God), is the trial before the Sanhedrin. The high priest point blank asked Jesus, "are you the Christ" and Jesus' response is "I am" and you will see the son of man (flesh) coming on the clouds of glory. We don't get the significance of that but the Jewish leaders did and condemned Jesus to death for it. (It is a reference to a passage in the old testament)

To the priest and the scribes and Sadducee and pharisees there that night, They understood completely that Jesus response was "Yep I am God" and for that they wanted him Crucified.

Also in this thread there was mention of the Seven Spirits of God as fodder for disbelief in the trinity. Here is something to ponder...

The Spirit of (1)Truth, ~John 16:13
The Spirit of (2)Wisdom and (3) Knowledge ~Isaiah 11:2 and Job 32:8
The Spirit of (4)Mercy and the Spirit of (5) Prayer ~Zechariah 12:10
The Spirit of (6) Love and (7) Gentleness ~1 Corinthians 4:21



A couple of Scriptures came to mind when I was reading this thread...

Romans 14:1 GNT
Welcome those who are weak in faith, but do not argue with them about their personal opinions.

1 Timothy 6:3 GNT
Whoever teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the true words of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the teaching of our religion 4 is swollen with pride and knows nothing. He has an unhealthy desire to argue and quarrel about words, and this brings on jealousy, disputes, insults, evil suspicions, 5 and constant arguments from people whose minds do not function and who no longer have the truth. They think that religion is a way to become rich.


Proverbs 18:2 GNT
2 A fool does not care whether he understands a thing or not; all he wants to do is show how smart he is.

Proverbs 20:3 GNT
Any fool can start arguments; the honorable thing is to stay out of them


If any of the above scriptures offend any of you.. Take it up with God.