amadeus2
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Was the God who never changes (Mal 3:6) swifter or quicker at one time than at a another?
"Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy." Matt 5:7
Judging
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"Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy." Matt 5:7
Ophel
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God has never changed...nor will He. He simply is withholding judgment and extending grace and mercy while His beloved Son builds His precious and mighty Church.
Dovegiven
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2 Peter 2. Examples of past judgment are presented that involved many calamities, mass destruction of nations, even the world in the flood. If God wouldn't spare them, he won't hold off righteous judgment for any generation of wicked. The many examples of judgment are given for our benefit, to realize there can come a present day judgment from God. Those who died or went into bondage are still subject to the last day judgment. All those that perished in the flood will yet stand before God to receive their eternal sentence.
Ophel
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Dovegiven
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It's your turn to cite a solid Bible reference to support that. Do you believe the former examples of judgment against living people are not
our examples, making Peter wrong?
I believe the scriptures teach that judgment passes over the children of God except for judgment already begun in the Church. For the wicked
there should be no doubt that God judges and punishes then and now, plus reserving the wicked for the final judgment.
Multiplied millions of people have perished in the last 2 millennia. Horrible evil men have been brought down, their nations ruined, thrones
deposed, plagues, earthquakes, mass starvation, slavery, careers demolished, all because of sin untamed. Do you suppose sin itself has the power to destroy?
The consequences of sin destroy people and their lands. The world is in rebellion against God, having no protector guarding them, subject to a cloud of angry
angels, ministers of God, that have been carrying out judgment against men since the beginning.
God's judgment often comes by simply not interceding, letting a natural earthquake run its course, letting drought ruin a food chain,
refusing to hear the cries of damaged rebellious sinners. He is letting generation after generation of people perish just like in the
Old Testament record. Then, a thousand years before the Great White Throne last day judgment will come the great Tribulation of many
judgments on those wicked still standing. That will be only their mortal killing, their eternal judgments held off till the end.
Dovegiven
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The Church should not announce some "cease fire" to the world saying they will not be held back from wickedness since there's only grace. Grace is
God's willingness to allow men to escape the destiny of the lost world by repenting and believing the gospel of Christ. Those that refuse will taste
of the consequences in this life and that to come, having never been touched by grace, mercy, or blessing. They reap only curses, to be judged according
to the Law and their own conscience.
Besides angels who preside over the earth, some men are ordained by God to carry out immediate judgment for sin.
Romans 13:1-6 (KJV)
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for
he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
So it is that law enforcement officers very often solve crimes, "seemingly" miraculously acquiring evidence, locating criminals on the run, bringing peace back to
communities. God helps them do the job he ordained them to do. Military members often carry out "unbelievable" feats of justice.
The time is coming when the angels, cops, soldiers will stand back and watch God personally carry out the last judgment that only he can do.
Ophel
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Sin has destructive consequences. The Destroyer destroys. God offers mercy and forgiveness.
Dovegiven
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Where are the scriptures to support your doctrine? That's the only way to avoid making false doctrines.
again:
Romans 13:1-6 (KJV)
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for
he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
That is the current situation, the here and now. Criminals ignore that passage, bringing upon themselves justice for their sins.
God offers mercy and forgiveness to those who repent. Grace is not experienced by rebels against God. All they can harvest is punishment in this life and in eternity.
If it were possible you are right, then God would have to recall the ordination of rulers to execute revenge. They are still authorized to effect wrath upon
evil doers. Every criminal that's been caught knows that power of men, given by God.
Ophel
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amadeus2
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Your conclusion seems to be baseless. Is it based on faith alone and no scripture?
Dovegiven asked for scripture and you responded only with more declarations and no scripture. If you don't know of any then perhaps you can ask for help from someone whose beliefs are similar to your own.
Ophel
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I know the word, but it is really odd that Christians would differ about the character of God and how He works in the world and among His own. You can hold your horses while I find the time to search for the many scriptures that attest to the truth about His unchanging nature, yet teach us about His vast mercy, which even the unbelieving world enjoys...until the Church is removed. THEN the world will know the depth of despair without Holy Spirit here.
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amadeus2
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We will wait on you. If you have more truth to offer then we really do want to receive it. If you have correction to offer, we also want to receive that. If God wants you to speak, will He not give you what He wants you to say?
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He is slow to anger Jonah 4:2. Not judge.
Ophel
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Matthew 13:24-41
Parable of the Wheat and Weeds
24 Here is another story Jesus told: “The Kingdom of Heaven is like a farmer who planted good seed in his field. 25 But that night as the workers slept, his enemy came and planted weeds among the wheat, then slipped away. 26 When the crop began to grow and produce grain, the weeds also grew.
27 “The farmer’s workers went to him and said, ‘Sir, the field where you planted that good seed is full of weeds! Where did they come from?’
28 “‘An enemy has done this!’ the farmer exclaimed.
“‘Should we pull out the weeds?’ they asked.
29 “‘No,’ he replied, ‘you’ll uproot the wheat if you do. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. Then I will tell the harvesters to sort out the weeds, tie them into bundles, and burn them, and to put the wheat in the barn.’”
Parable of the Mustard Seed
31 Here is another illustration Jesus used: “The Kingdom of Heaven is like a mustard seed planted in a field. 32 It is the smallest of all seeds, but it becomes the largest of garden plants; it grows into a tree, and birds come and make nests in its branches.”
Parable of the Yeast
33 Jesus also used this illustration: “The Kingdom of Heaven is like the yeast a woman used in making bread. Even though she put only a little yeast in three measures of flour, it permeated every part of the dough.”
34 Jesus always used stories and illustrations like these when speaking to the crowds. In fact, he never spoke to them without using such parables. 35 This fulfilled what God had spoken through the prophet:
“I will speak to you in parables.
I will explain things hidden since the creation of the world.a]">[a]”
Parable of the Wheat and Weeds Explained
36 Then, leaving the crowds outside, Jesus went into the house. His disciples said, “Please explain to us the story of the weeds in the field.”
37 Jesus replied, “The Son of Manb]">[b] is the farmer who plants the good seed. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the people of the Kingdom. The weeds are the people who belong to the evil one. 39 The enemy who planted the weeds among the wheat is the devil. The harvest is the end of the world,c]">[c] and the harvesters are the angels.
40 “Just as the weeds are sorted out and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the world. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
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Parable of the Wheat and Weeds
24 Here is another story Jesus told: “The Kingdom of Heaven is like a farmer who planted good seed in his field. 25 But that night as the workers slept, his enemy came and planted weeds among the wheat, then slipped away. 26 When the crop began to grow and produce grain, the weeds also grew.
27 “The farmer’s workers went to him and said, ‘Sir, the field where you planted that good seed is full of weeds! Where did they come from?’
28 “‘An enemy has done this!’ the farmer exclaimed.
“‘Should we pull out the weeds?’ they asked.
29 “‘No,’ he replied, ‘you’ll uproot the wheat if you do. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. Then I will tell the harvesters to sort out the weeds, tie them into bundles, and burn them, and to put the wheat in the barn.’”
Parable of the Mustard Seed
31 Here is another illustration Jesus used: “The Kingdom of Heaven is like a mustard seed planted in a field. 32 It is the smallest of all seeds, but it becomes the largest of garden plants; it grows into a tree, and birds come and make nests in its branches.”
Parable of the Yeast
33 Jesus also used this illustration: “The Kingdom of Heaven is like the yeast a woman used in making bread. Even though she put only a little yeast in three measures of flour, it permeated every part of the dough.”
34 Jesus always used stories and illustrations like these when speaking to the crowds. In fact, he never spoke to them without using such parables. 35 This fulfilled what God had spoken through the prophet:
“I will speak to you in parables.
I will explain things hidden since the creation of the world.a]">[a]”
Parable of the Wheat and Weeds Explained
36 Then, leaving the crowds outside, Jesus went into the house. His disciples said, “Please explain to us the story of the weeds in the field.”
37 Jesus replied, “The Son of Manb]">[b] is the farmer who plants the good seed. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the people of the Kingdom. The weeds are the people who belong to the evil one. 39 The enemy who planted the weeds among the wheat is the devil. The harvest is the end of the world,c]">[c] and the harvesters are the angels.
40 “Just as the weeds are sorted out and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the world. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
.
Ophel
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Dovegiven
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That doesn't cover the generations of false prophets that lived and died, or what's concluded today. It has to do with Jesus' return, sorting the evil from the good. It has nothing to do with God's judgments which have been plenty all along, and is seen in the world today. Keep trying, though.
Ophel
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It has to do with the time set aside by God where He will reckon with the evildoers on Earth. In the meantime, His great grace prevails and falls on the unrighteous along with the righteous.
That said, it doesn't mean that people will not suffer the consequences of their sin. That is the nature of sin. It is destructive. That's not Gid's punishment or judgment.
Perhaps a revelation of God's grace is necessary.
Dovegiven
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Your explanation of judgment doesn't deal with the lesson of the tares. I'll summarize it to make my point. Every generation is composed of people for God and against God. Often folks wonder why God doesn't just eliminate all opponents of his truth since he knows who they are. The main problem is there's often little if any outward difference between possessors of truth and pretenders. Indeed, the grace of God is available, when activated through faith from a sinner to change any of the pretenders to become his child, holding his truth. So were are commanded to preach the gospel of Christ so the pretenders might be convinced of their error and be born again from above.
Leaving the tares in the field means God lets the sinners remain as an overwhelming majority versus Christians, but also commands the righteous to be separate from them. The reason for separation is that like the farmer could prepare for harvest by easily separating the poisonous tares out on the first day of harvest. Some of the desired crop right next to the evil plants might be uprooted by the entangled tare roots, but the good seed on the damaged good plant can still be harvested, having already matured. An example among people could be a beloved spouse being a tare, that when separated in that future judgment of Christ, might be a painful experience.
The tare species can be controlled somewhat while weeding the rows by breaking the main stem, preventing it from competing with the wheat. With it's seed head on the ground, the wheat seed remaining high helps harvest the good. We break the power of the devil by submitting to God and resisting the devil, casting demons out, but admittedly very little of that happens in the modern Churches today.
The parable has to do with each generation of the Church until Jesus is back on earth. We know many people merely claim to be Christian, that mostly are of no help to the Kingdom. Some invent false doctrine, often simply out of ignorance of the true doctrine. We ought not go about burning them at stakes. Instead, we have instructions concerning the tares. We are mostly to avoid the bad, though when opportunity strikes, witness truth to them.
Romans 16:17-18 (KJV)
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
We teach our babes in Christ to avoid sampling the poison of sinners. Moreover, we learn not to be friends with the world. Even more, we ought not even share a meal with someone claiming to be Christian that lives in open sin.
How we, Christians, are supposed to co-exist with evil is the main point of the parable of the tares. We know that those sinners holding out to face the judgment of Christ will be separated out from among the Church when Jesus comes back. Knowing that we know the immeasurable value of persistently producing good fruit while in this world.
Sin does have consequences, so slight, some terrible. They often come upon the sinner in the form of damaged health from abusing the body or mind. Those are mostly natural processes, requiring no administration from angels or God.
Punishment for sin in this life and at the Judgment do require administration from God, or his authorized ordained ministers of law, our police, detectives, forensic scientists, prosecuting attorneys, judges and juries who deliver judgments for criminals. We could say receiving punishment through justice is a consequence of sin. In that sense all justice and judgment in this life and the next is a major consequence of sin. There's a big difference, though, that while in this life a person might benefit from God's grace through repentance and believing the gospel of Christ, avoiding that terrible eternal consequence, but maybe having to retain the temporal consequences, such as living in a prison.
Rom 13 describes how God has given man authority to judge offenders. That passage isn't saying the same as the Matthew 13 tare parable. Rom 13 covers civil judgment from law ministers operating from God's direct authority to judge and punish, whether Christian, Hindu or atheist. It isn't to say God never judges during the here and now a person, family, city, state, nation. He is on record as having judged man many times, punishing them still like leaving Israel mostly blinded to the gospel even now regardless of how clean their lives are. The Jews are still under judgment of God, which for some in the last days will end with mercy and grace.
