Mid-tribulation

El Hombre viejo · Oct 8, 2012

David777 said:
Hello El Hombre viejo.

The cities you listed need to fulfill additional
requirements. Here read the following;

Revelations 17

18 The woman whom you saw is the great city,
which reigns over the kings of the earth.

Which city reigned over the kings of the earth?

This should reduce the number of cities in your list.

Revelations 18

4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying,
“Come out of her, my people, so that you will
not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;

5 for her sins have piled up as high as heaven,
and God has remembered her iniquities.

The harlot has God's people as participants in
her sins. Christians are involved with the harlot and are
instructed to depart from the harlot.

Verse five describes the sins of the harlot as many.
You will also notice the past tense "God has remembered
her iniquities." The judgement is for past sins. Throughout
Christian history there has only been one city that has
God's people in attendance and reigned over the kings
of the earth.

Ok I am aware that Rome has been called the City of Seven Hills for a long time. She has not however ruled the kings of the Earth, only a few.

Ok The seven heads (Kings and kingdoms) are the seven hills. Seven kings, five of whom are fallen , one is in place and one more to come who will only last a short time. How does that fit Rome? It does not.
But the harlot who worships the moon and thrives on blood of innocents does. Iraq and her Muslim religion. Just as the Antichrist is Muslim. The Muslims will NOT listen to a non Muslim leader.

David777 · Oct 9, 2012

El Hombre viejo said:
Ok I am aware that Rome has been called the City of Seven Hills for a long time. She has not however ruled the kings of the Earth, only a few.

Ok The seven heads (Kings and kingdoms) are the seven hills. Seven kings, five of whom are fallen , one is in place and one more to come who will only last a short time. How does that fit Rome? It does not.
But the harlot who worships the moon and thrives on blood of innocents does. Iraq and her Muslim religion. Just as the Antichrist is Muslim. The Muslims will NOT listen to a non Muslim leader.

I am not inferring that the 'man of lawlessness' is a Roman
or has anything to do with the Vatican.

I am not sure whom the man of lawlessness is?

I am fond of two possible theories;

1) A Jew, the false messiah.

2) A Muslim since they are awaiting their messiah.

He will be revealed according to 2Thess before Christ returns.

Just wanted to clear the air regarding the harlot and Babylon.

Eric E Stahl · Oct 9, 2012

Mystery Babylon will be the name of the ecumenical apostate Christian church after all the true believers a caught up to heaven. It will include every denomination that believed Jesus is the son of God. It will be centered in Rome.

Babylon will be the home kingdom of the antichrist and will be destroyed in Revelation 16:19 when all the islands in the sea sink below the water. Babylon will also be judged in Revelation 16:10 when her sun light is taken away permanently by a permanent solar eclipse setting up over Israel see Isaiah 60:19-20, Habakkuk 3:11-13, Amos 8:9, Isaiah 16:3 and more.

America is called the daughter of Babylon in Zechariah 2:6-7 because 6000000 Jews are in America when the Russian Jews are going home to Israel from the north. There are only 3000000 Jews spread around the rest of the world.

El Hombre viejo · Oct 10, 2012

Eric E Stahl said:
Mystery Babylon will be the name of the ecumenical apostate Christian church after all the true believers a caught up to heaven. It will include every denomination that believed Jesus is the son of God. It will be centered in Rome.

Babylon will be the home kingdom of the antichrist and will be destroyed in Revelation 16:19 when all the islands in the sea sink below the water. Babylon will also be judged in Revelation 16:10 when her sun light is taken away permanently by a permanent solar eclipse setting up over Israel see Isaiah 60:19-20, Habakkuk 3:11-13, Amos 8:9, Isaiah 16:3 and more.

America is called the daughter of Babylon in Zechariah 2:6-7 because 6000000 Jews are in America when the Russian Jews are going home to Israel from the north. There are only 3000000 Jews spread around the rest of the world.

Yeah I kind of got side tracked there. But still I find it curious that so many Christians like Rome for the Babylon. Can anyone tell this old man why? It doesn't fit.

Also I read the verse you quoted in Zechariah. I must be reading a different Bible. America is not even mentioned there....or anywhere in the Bible. Why did you choose America to be the daughter of Babylon? Your reasoning doesn't fit there either. Why do you say there are six million Jews in America...when was this? 1948?

So...Am I tracking straight on what you are saying? Or am I making my own tracks again?

David777 · Oct 10, 2012

I will provide some evidence to support the claim that the Roman Church
is the prostitute in Revelations 17,18,19.

Revelations 17
4 The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious
stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and
the filth of her adulteries.

The Pope and Cardinals wear purple and red.
The golden cup is the exclusive identifying feature of
the Catholic mass. Gold is the wealth of the Vatican,
the Catholic Church is the wealthiest organization in
the world. Real estate holdings worldwide are immense.
Abonimable things within the cup are the array of
false doctrines which the Catholic Church is endowed with.

Revelations 17
6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God’s
holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

The Catholic church has excommunicated and killed many
Christians whose beliefs were contrary to hers. Martin Luther
is a very famous example that you would be aware of.
Opposition to the Vatican's rule and power created an
immense collection of churches referred to as the
Protestant churches. Christian history is almost the
history of the Catholic Church and opposition to her.
Surely you are aware of the inquisitions?

Revelations 17
15 Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where
the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.

A world wide church or prostitute not a true bride.
A prostitute sells her love to the highest bidder.
The Catholic Church is a false church, her love
is and always will be of herself and wealth.
Indulgences are a classic Catholic practice to gain
wealth. No single intstitution has brought more harm
to Christianity than the Catholic Church, there should
be no argument with this statement.

Revelations 17
18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.

Firstly the Roman empire then the Vatican have ruled over the world
in varying degrees for close to 2000 years. There can be no doubt
that John is identifying Rome as this city. He was imprisoned
on the isle of Patmos by the emperor of Rome. Christians were
slaughtered by the emperor who ruled in John's era (Domitian, AD 90-95).

Need I continue El Hombre viejo?

El Hombre viejo · Oct 10, 2012

David777 said:
I will provide some evidence to support the claim that the Roman Church
is the prostitute in Revelations 17,18,19.

Revelations 17
4 The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious
stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and
the filth of her adulteries.

The Pope and Cardinals wear purple and red.
The golden cup is the exclusive identifying feature of
the Catholic mass. Gold is the wealth of the Vatican,
the Catholic Church is the wealthiest organization in
the world. Real estate holdings worldwide are immense.
Abonimable things within the cup are the array of
false doctrines which the Catholic Church is endowed with.

Revelations 17
6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God’s
holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

The Catholic church has excommunicated and killed many
Christians whose beliefs were contrary to hers. Martin Luther
is a very famous example that you would be aware of.
Opposition to the Vatican's rule and power created an
immense collection of churches referred to as the
Protestant churches. Christian history is almost the
history of the Catholic Church and opposition to her.
Surely you are aware of the inquisitions?

Revelations 17
15 Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where
the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.

A world wide church or prostitute not a true bride.
A prostitute sells her love to the highest bidder.
The Catholic Church is a false church, her love
is and always will be of herself and wealth.
Indulgences are a classic Catholic practice to gain
wealth. No single intstitution has brought more harm
to Christianity than the Catholic Church, there should
be no argument with this statement.

Revelations 17
18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.

Firstly the Roman empire then the Vatican have ruled over the world
in varying degrees for close to 2000 years. There can be no doubt
that John is identifying Rome as this city. He was imprisoned
on the isle of Patmos by the emperor of Rome. Christians were
slaughtered by the emperor who ruled in John's era (Domitian, AD 90-95).

Need I continue El Hombre viejo?

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oNotPromoteQF/> <w:LidThemeOther>EN-US</w:LidThemeOther> <w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian> <w:LidThemeComplexScript>X-NONE</w:LidThemeComplexScript> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w

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ontFlipMirrorIndents/> <w:OverrideTableStyleHps/> </w:Compatibility> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> Actually, yes you do. You see...If I were a lawyer or a judge I would rule that to be circumstantial evidence. Those criteria fit Islam as well. LOL As you may have deduced..I favor Islam for that role.
Muslims have been murdering Christians for centuries, long before Rome existed. She will be a world wide church very soon now, controlling every other religion.
Arabia fits the ***** of Babylon. As the spiritual home of Islam, Mecca rules (influences) over 1.5 billion people on this planet, in every country. The colour scarlet denotes royalty and of course the Royal House of Saud controls Mecca, the spiritual home of Islam. Mecca causes people to fly planes into buildings, to blow up infrastructure, to strap bombs on themselves to blow up the Kuffaar, and to behead infidels shouting ‘Allahu Akbar”.
Consider attributes of the ***** in Revelation 17 & 18.

The great ***** is seated on many waters (peoples, nations and languages)
The kings of the Earth have committed fornication and are drunk with the wine (oil)
John was carried away into a wilderness where he saw the woman sitting on the scarlet beast
The woman was adorned with gold and jewels holding a golden cup full of abominations
The woman was drunk with the blood of the saints and the blood of the witnesses to Jesus
The beast shall hate the ***** and will burn her up with fire
Her judgement will come in one hour.

Consider how Mecca fits the criteria.

Mecca influences over 1.5 billion people from all nations and countries
Western nations are desperate for oil from the world’s largest supplier
The Arabian peninsula is a desert wilderness, and Mecca is the spiritual home for all Muslims
Saudi Arabia does a huge trade in gold and jewellery and is subverting the west with oil money and funding terror
Islam has killed over 270 million people since the seventh century, and Islam demands the killing of all Jews and the destruction of Christianity
Islamic nations hate Saudi Arabia because they believe it has corrupted Islam and in Islamic eschatology, both Mecca and Medina will be destroyed, probably by a Turkey, Syria, Iran axis
The judgement could well be a nuclear device if it is to come in one hour.

Mecca fits to perfection the profile of the Scarlet ***** sitting on (controlling) the Islamic beast.

Care to keep going? grin

Eric E Stahl · Oct 10, 2012

El Hombre viejo said:
Yeah I kind of got side tracked there. But still I find it curious that so many Christians like Rome for the Babylon. Can anyone tell this old man why? It doesn't fit.

Also I read the verse you quoted in Zechariah. I must be reading a different Bible. America is not even mentioned there....or anywhere in the Bible. Why did you choose America to be the daughter of Babylon? Your reasoning doesn't fit there either. Why do you say there are six million Jews in America...when was this? 1948?

So...Am I tracking straight on what you are saying? Or am I making my own tracks again?

El Hombre ,

When the Jews came home from the Russian north(Zechariah 2:6) God also told them to leave the daughter of Babylon (Zechariah 2:7) So the daughter of Babylon is

where the Jews are now!!! There are 6,000,000 Jews in Israel and 6,000,000 Jews in America. There are only 3,000,000 Jews spread around the rest of the world. I believe

America is the daughter of Babylon and future home of the antichrist.

Eric E Stahl

David777 · Oct 10, 2012

Well, there are some other versus that need to be addressed.

These verses are very descriptive of the harlot, let's see how
you deal with two more versus.

Revelation 18
3 For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication,
the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants
of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury.

Also, this verse which you will struggle with no doubt.

Revelation 18
4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying,
“Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins,
and lest you receive of her plagues".

Since when have God's people had any involvement with Mecca?

Eric E Stahl · Oct 11, 2012

David777 said:
Well, there are some other versus that need to be addressed.

These verses are very descriptive of the harlot, let's see how
you deal with two more versus.

Revelation 18
3 For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication,
the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants
of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury.

Also, this verse which you will struggle with no doubt.

Revelation 18
4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying,
“Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins,
and lest you receive of her plagues".

Since when have God's people had any involvement with Mecca?

David777,
These verses refer to Mystery Babylon which is the religion of political Babylon and is centered in Rome. Mystery Babylon will be destroyed at the middle of the tribulation when God causes the 10 kings who have conquered the world to give their power to the antichrist see Revelation 17:12-18

Revelation 17:12–18 KJV
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the ***** sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the *****, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

John explains his vision, which is very interesting, in that verse seventeen says that God will cause the ten kings who will be ruled by the apostate church from Rome to rebel and give their power to the Antichrist.

Political Babylon will not be destroyed till the end of the tribulation when the great earthquake causes all the islands to sink under the water see Revelation16:19-20

Revelation 16:17–21 KJV
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

The last vial’s judgment is interesting. A voice from heaven will say, “It is done.” That means there will be no more delay of the final judgment. Great earthquakes occur worldwide. Both Jerusalem, which is under the permanent solar eclipse, and Babylon (America), which is in the dark on the opposite side of the earth, will be affected. The earth’s crust, or outside layer of rock, is going to shake so hard that the quake will level the mountains on the land and in the sea. When the mountains in the sea shake from their foundations, the islands disappear.
Think about all the islands that will sink: Japan, England, Hawaii, New Zealand, Formosa, Puerto Rico, and Cuba are some of the largest. Verses nineteen and twenty indicate that Babylon (America) will be judged when the islands go under the water.

Zechariah 14:9–10 KJV
9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there
be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.

When the gravity of the New Jerusalem and the moon and the sun are in line over Israel, the combined gravitation will cause the crust of the earth to bulge and lift up Israel as a plain, according to Zechariah 14:10. It could be that Babylon (America) which is on the opposite side of the earth may be pulled partially under the water when the islands disappear.

Eric E Stahl · Nov 10, 2012

Joel Green · Nov 13, 2012

Why is the church never mentioned after John finishes describing the different types of churches? After that, the church is never mentioned until the marriage supper of the lamb.

Eric E Stahl · Nov 13, 2012

Joel,
The church will be caught up to heaven before the day of the Lord starts because we are children of light and not appointed to the wrath of the day of the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 5:1–11 KJV
5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Joel Green · Nov 13, 2012

The days of wrath are the beginning of the tribulation though.

Eric E Stahl · Nov 13, 2012

Yes the tribulation is the time of the wrath of the Lamb Jesus.

Revelation 6:12–17 KJV
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Joel Green · Nov 13, 2012

So, therefore, if the tribulation is the time of wrath, and the rapture happens before the wrath, then it will be pretribulational.

David777 · Nov 13, 2012

The day of Christ's return is one day in the future.

Christians are on earth when Christ returns.

Christians endure a time of great tribulation at the end.

Christians do not suffer from the wrath of God on the last day.

1Colossians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh,
that the spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus.

2 Colossians 1:14
As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing,
even as ye also are ours in the Day of the Lord Jesus.

1Thessalonians 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so cometh
as a thief in the night.

Philippians 1:10
That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere
and without offence till the day of Christ;

Philippians 2:16
Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ,
that I have not run in vain, neither labored in vain.

2 Peter 3:10
But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;
in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,
and the elements shall melt with fervent heat,

The "son of perdition" appears just before the return of Christ.
When Christ returns on that day, we are gathered to Jesus and
not before that day.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

On the day when Christ returns we marvel at His arrival
and appearing. It also the the day of God's great wrath,
eternal destruction.

2 Thessalonians 1:9-10
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of
the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in
His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—
for our testimony to you was believed.

We Christians resist the mark and do not worship the beast.
Hence we are present on earth until the last day when Christ
returns.

Revelation 20:4
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them.
And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony
of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the
beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their
hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Eric E Stahl · Nov 14, 2012

Eric E Stahl · Nov 14, 2012

David777,

You said "We Christians resist the mark and do not worship the beast.
Hence we are present on earth until the last day when Christ
returns.

Revelation 20:4
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them.
And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony
of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the
beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their
hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."
Read More: Mid-tribulation - Page 34
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This seems to indicate that you believe the church age believers go through the 7 year tribulation.

The church is not appointed to the wrath of the day of the Lord, but millions of people will be saved during the tribulation and they will go through it.

David777 · Nov 14, 2012

2 Thessalonians 1:9-10
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of
the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in
His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—
for our testimony to you was believed.

Joel Green · Nov 14, 2012

First, the Rapture will be pretribulational. What would the point of the Church going through judgements that are meant to punish and convince the unbelievers to turn from their wicked ways? Additionally, why would they tell believers to be prepared for Jesus coming 'as a thief in the night' if we can measure when He will be coming. The Church WILL be Raptured before the Tribulation begins, however, there will be those who come to Christ during the Tribulation (see Revelations).

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