Mid-tribulation

[David777]

An alternative explanation of 2 Thess. is found here: http://www.talkjesus.com/evidence-bible-prophecy/38601-were-they-right-2.html#post184283

I agree with you David, Eric's eschatology is sketchy and speculative. There are only two temples the scriptures can be referring to after 70ad; the sanctuary in heaven where clearly the only Boss is and will always be God: no pretenders to the throne there....which leaves only one alternative, the church itself. The confusion however is exacerbated by the persistent belief that the antichrist is an individual, and is yet future. It is not, and the antichrist power has been around for a very long time. It is a system, a kingdom, or nation, or combination thereof. The little horn that grows out of the fourth beast in Daniel 7 is a kingdom. No horns represented individuals.
And that little horn by the way that grew out of pagan Rome....the scriptures are clear that it is still around at the second coming. Name me one individual who was born in pagan Rome and is still alive today.

A very good reply brakelite, this reply has some meat on the bones.
I must admit that you are forcing me to think now.

You are correct that Eric's eschatology is pure guess work,
impossible to glean from the passages he quoted.

I must of course disagree with your assertion that the AC is not a person.
Here look again at this verse from Thessalonians.

4 Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshiped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.

A kingdom cannot sit in the temple of God brakelite.

Definitely a false messiah, no doubt about what the verse is describing.
Singular, male, a person with a big mouth.

Your statement about the temple being one of only two
types may be too restrictive.

Our problem here is that we do not know which temple
is being referred to.

Possibilities as follows:

1) Jewish temple rebuilt, 0% probability.

2) True Christian Church, no leader, < 50% probability.

3) False Christian Church, has leader > 50% probability.

4) Unknown future Church, will have leader > 50% probability.

You will have to admit that there are in fact at least three
reasonable options brakelite, not two.

An antichrist is and always is someone who denies the Christ.

There is a point that I must stress brakelite. As you will notice
the final antichrst is always referred to as "he" not "it". It is
invalid to associate given the language usage, the AC with
anything but individual human form. They had AC's in the
first century and all the way through, they were always
individuals. In the first century the papacy did not exist,
antichrists did exist. I must reject your proposition that the
AC is an organization, it is outside the language of Revs and
unsupportable. Daniel also refers to the AC as the king
of the North, singular, ruler, he, not collective they or it.

It is a stretch beyond the possibilities presented by Revs.

Now, can we tie Eric to a stake and light him up. As a warning
to all not to go beyond the limits of the scriptures.

Can I ask a question brakelite?

Are not Eric and yourself both members of the SDA?

If so, how come your eschatology is different?

 

[brakelite]

No need for guesswork....

A very good reply brakelite, this reply has some meat on the bones.
I must admit that you are forcing me to think now.

You are correct that Eric's eschatology is pure guess work,
impossible to glean from the passages he quoted.

I must of course disagree with your assertion that the AC is not a person.
Here look again at this verse from Thessalonians.

4 Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshiped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.

A kingdom cannot sit in the temple of God brakelite.

Definitely a false messiah, no doubt about what the verse is describing.
Singular, male, a person with a big mouth.

Your statement about the temple being one of only two
types may be too restrictive.

Our problem here is that we do not know which temple
is being referred to.

Possibilities as follows:

1) Jewish temple rebuilt, 0% probability.

2) True Christian Church, no leader, < 50% probability.

3) False Christian Church, has leader > 50% probability.

4) Unknown future Church, will have leader > 50% probability.

You will have to admit that there are in fact at least three
reasonable options brakelite, not two.

An antichrist is and always is someone who denies the Christ.

There is a point that I must stress brakelite. As you will notice
the final antichrst is always referred to as "he" not "it". It is
invalid to associate given the language usage, the AC with
anything but individual human form. They had AC's in the
first century and all the way through, they were always
individuals. In the first century the papacy did not exist,
antichrists did exist. I must reject your proposition that the
AC is an organization, it is outside the language of Revs and
unsupportable. Daniel also refers to the AC as the king
of the North, singular, ruler, he, not collective they or it.

It is a stretch beyond the possibilities presented by Revs.

Now, can we tie Eric to a stake and light him up. As a warning
to all not to go beyond the limits of the scriptures.

Can I ask a question brakelite?

Are not Eric and yourself both members of the SDA?

If so, how come your eschatology is different?

First off, I don't know what denomination Eric is allied to, if any, but it isn't SDA.
Second, there is no need to guess at what temple the AC sets himself up in, it is, or was, the Christian church, now turned apostate, and is called Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots. This entity is a church/state union (the woman riding the beast...the church controlling the state but supported by it). I have copied and pasted from a previous post on the question of system/individual...

The Antichrist is revealed to us through scripture in several different ways. In Daniel 2 he is the mixture of iron and clay. In Daniel 7 he is the little horn. In 2 Thess the man of sin and son of perdition, and in Revelation 13 the first beast.
I have mentioned before that Nebuchadnezzar was the representative of the entire empire, so also with the 'man of sin'. Below is an excerpt from a sermon by the renowned preacher and writer Puritan Thomas Manton in the 17th century. Charles Spurgeon testified to Mantons works as being “a mighty mountain of sound theology”

But because he is called the man of sin, here it cometh fitly to be inquired whether Antichrist be an individual person? for 'that man of sin' would seem to be some single person. No; he is put for a society and succession of men, that make up the head of the apostate state. As one lion figured the whole kingdom of the Babylonians, and one bear the kingdom of the Medes and Persians, and one leopard the kingdom of the Grecians, Dan. 7, — and there the fourth beast is the fourth kingdom, — so one person that succession of men that head the revolters from Christ. So Dan. 8, a goat figured a succession of kings; so the Assyrian, Isa. 10:5, several kings in that empire; so Isa. 14:9, the king of Babylon, meaning not one but many. So this man of sin doth not note a single man, but a succession of men, a body politic or corporate, under one opposite head to the kingdom of Christ: so the 'man of God' is put for all faithful ministers, 2 Tim. 3:17; so 'honour the king,' I Peter 2:17, series regum. So o arciereus, Heb. 9:25, 'The high priest every year entereth into the holy place;' meaning not one, but the succession of the order; and in reason it must needs be so here. Because Antichrist, from his beginning to his end, from his rise and revelation, till his ruin and destruction, will take up such a long track of time, as cannot fall within the age of any one man, even from the time of the apostles till the end of the world. Antichrist is the head of the apostasy; for here the apostasy and the revelation of the man of sin are tied together; now the mysterious apostasy could not be perfected in a short time.

In this sermon, Manton, like many reformers before him, was applying the prophecy of 2 Thess. concerning the man of sin directly to the papal system.
(from page 5, "Were they right?"


David, remember my lesson in "Were they right"? which showed that the expression 'antichrist' means 'in the place of Christ', or 'instead of Christ'. The antichrist is a substitute, or a counterfeit Christ, a counterfeit system of worship, a counterfeit salvation. Again, I refer you to an older post from that thread....

Before we look at the antichrist, I want to look at the real Christ. Who is He? Let us go to the scriptures to find out what and Who He claimed to be.

Matthew 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

The temple, the priesthood, and the religious system of the Jewish nation go hand in hand. It was the mainstay and focal point of the life of Israel. Yet Jesus claimed to be greater. Greater even than the very High priest who no doubt would take great interest in hearing a report of these words. Greater even than the very law of God enshrined within. (Or at least it used to be). Only one person can be greater than any law of God, and that is the lawgiver.

38 ¶ Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Jonah was the most powerful and successful of all OT prophets. In all 40 odd chapters of Jeremiah, there is no record of anyone at anytime taking the slightest bit of notice of anything Jeremiah said. Yet Jonah, on the strength of just one or two sermons, converted an entire city of the children of Ishmael totalling maybe 60,000 people. Nineveh. By any standards, that has got to be recorded as a very successful evangelistic campaign. Yet Jesus claimed to be greater than Jonah.

42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.


Solomon was the wisest and wealthiest and most successful of any ruler of the ancient world. Yet Jesus claimed to be greater even than Solomon.

In the three startling claims as shown above, we have before us the threefold ministry of Jesus. Priest, prophet, and King.


It has been said, and I think wisely, that the Bible must be understood grammatically before it can be understood theologically. Anti- as in antichrist, according to Strong's concordance, and like other words having the prefix 'anti', means at it's most basic form not simply 'opposite' but also "in the room of", "instead of", or "in the place of".
In other words, 'antichrist' means against or opposite of by a particular and specific method...it stands as a substitute. We all know that Satan works by deception. Yet many would claim the 'antichrist' will be one who will charge in on a black horse guns blazing with fury and hatred directed at all things Christian and opposing with great force the church. Pray tell me, how will the world be deceived by such a tactic as this?
In 2 Thess. 2:1 we are told that there was to be a falling away first, which will reveal the antichrist, or as Paul describes him, the man of sin or son of perdition. Now falling away in this instance is a falling into apostasy; divorce.
Any divorce necessitates a prior favourable relationship. The only other example of a 'son of perdition' is Judas Iscariot. Did Judas openly and with force oppose Christ? Did he attack His teachings and disagree with Jesus claims to divinity? Did he argue and debate everything Jesus stood for and seek the destruction of His followers? No. Not by any means. Judas betrayed Jesus with a kiss. He betrayed Him with an act of apparent love, fellowship, and friendship. He undermined and betrayed Jesus at the same time as claiming Him to be his friend!! This squares perfectly with the meaning of antichrist. He is not an opposer, but a subtle imposter. A counterfeit. An imposter of Jesus Christ. A false copy, or forgery of the true.
Antichrist is therefore a person or power who impersonates the offices of Priesthood, the Prophet or spokesmanship, and the Kingly rule of Christ. The office that ministers for God, speaks for God, and rules for God.
Satan has many counterfeits. Now counterfeits are almost identical to the true. You do not get counterfeit 99$ notes. You get counterfeit 100$ notes. And unless you get trained and disciplined to know intimately the true 100$ note, you will not recognise the false. It has been estimated that every person in America who has regularly handled 100$ notes, has had pass through their hands a counterfeit at least 4 times a year! And not known it!!!! Unless you are intimately acquainted with the true Jesus, how will you recognise the counterfeit?
So how does Antichrist counterfeit the threefold ministry of the true Christ, as Priest, Prophet and King? Is there an entity in the world today who claims to do just this? Is there one like Judas who is betraying the Master with a kiss, all the while claiming to be a friend? Is there in the world today a religious system or religious ruler who claims to be the earthly representative of Christ as His priest, claiming to be a mediator between God and man? Claiming to forgive sin even?
Does this entity also claim the prerogatives of a prophet? Does it claim to speak for God in spiritual matters? Does it claim to stand as Gods spokesman on earth and claim that only through it's authority can salvation be found?
And finally, does this entity also claim to be a king? Does it claim authority as a secular power? Does it exercise authority and power within the auspices of a church/state relationship?

 

[David777]

Hello brakelite.

You mentioned so many points, I will deal with them one at a time.

In your reply you stated that Manton (Reformed theologian) said that the AC could be the papal system.

This is not correct, Manton states that the AC is a stream of men running through to the final AC.

Look, I checked some of Mantons sermons on 2 Thess.

The following is an extract from the fouth sermon on 2 Thessalonians 2. You do not have to read the whole thing, just the highlighted piece at the end. If you wish to check the source, look up Manton 4th sermon 2 Thess 2.

[2.] And showing himself that he is God: that is meant, not of what he professeth in words, but what he doth in deed. It is not said that he saith he is God, but apodeikunta, he showeth himself, or sets forth himself as God. The reason of the thing showeth it:—-(1.) Antichrist gets power by seduction, or the deceiveableness of unrighteousness; therefore does not openly call himself the true and only God. He is represented as a false prophet, that speaketh lies in hypocrisy. If one would openly and plainly profess himself to be God, he might be a frantic usurper, but could not be a cunning seducer, and few would be so stupid and senseless as to be led by him. (2.) Antichrist, whoever he be, is to be a Christian by profession, and to have a high and great charge among the visible professors of Christianity. He is a secret adversary, that groweth upon the apostasy or degeneration of the Christian state. Now, such pretends observance and obedience to Christ, and therefore he would not openly declare himself to be God, and he sitteth in the temple and church of God, as before. And it is a mystery; all which imply crafty conveyance, and that he doth not openly assume the godhead, but slily and secretly, which doth not mend the matter; for the insinuating, devouring, unsuspected enemy is the most perilous and pernicious; as Joab to Amasa, and Judas to Christ. (3.) Antichrist is plainly a man.

I disagree with the the sermon anyway brakelite, these guys had seriously dropped the ball. Manton claims the AC is a Christian.
Where is that in the scriptures?

Manton says the AC is a man of course. Why quote Manton when he is not supporting what you are proposing??

 

[brakelite]

You mentioned so many points, I will deal with them one at a time.

In your reply you stated that Manton (Reformed theologian) said that the AC could be the papal system.

This is not correct, Manton states that the AC is a stream of men running through to the final AC.

Look, I checked some of Mantons sermons on 2 Thess.

The following is an extract from the fouth sermon on 2 Thessalonians 2. You do not have to read the whole thing, just the highlighted piece at the end. If you wish to check the source, look up Manton 4th sermon 2 Thess 2.

[2.] And showing himself that he is God: that is meant, not of what he professeth in words, but what he doth in deed. It is not said that he saith he is God, but apodeikunta, he showeth himself, or sets forth himself as God. The reason of the thing showeth it:—-(1.) Antichrist gets power by seduction, or the deceiveableness of unrighteousness; therefore does not openly call himself the true and only God. He is represented as a false prophet, that speaketh lies in hypocrisy. If one would openly and plainly profess himself to be God, he might be a frantic usurper, but could not be a cunning seducer, and few would be so stupid and senseless as to be led by him. (2.) Antichrist, whoever he be, is to be a Christian by profession, and to have a high and great charge among the visible professors of Christianity. He is a secret adversary, that groweth upon the apostasy or degeneration of the Christian state. Now, such pretends observance and obedience to Christ, and therefore he would not openly declare himself to be God, and he sitteth in the temple and church of God, as before. And it is a mystery; all which imply crafty conveyance, and that he doth not openly assume the godhead, but slily and secretly, which doth not mend the matter; for the insinuating, devouring, unsuspected enemy is the most perilous and pernicious; as Joab to Amasa, and Judas to Christ. (3.) Antichrist is plainly a man.

I disagree with the the sermon anyway brakelite, these guys had seriously dropped the ball. Manton claims the AC is a Christian.
Where is that in the scriptures?

Manton says the AC is a man of course. Why quote Manton when he is not supporting what you are proposing??

I will quote the specific portion with which I agree ....

So this man of sin doth not note a single man, but a succession of men,[RED] a body politic or corporate[/RED], under one opposite head to the kingdom of Christ:

I will deal with your other question, Manton claims the AC is a Christian.
Where is that in the scriptures? when I have time.

 

[David777]

In reply.

So this man of sin doth not note a single man, but a succession of men, a body politic or corporate, under one opposite head to the kingdom of Christ:

See how we each highlight a different part of the one sentence.

 

[David777]

Next point brakelite.

You said,

Pray tell me, how will the world be deceived by such a tactic as this?

Remember, they have been placed under a powerful delusion.

The world will believe the AC.

 

[David777]

Next, next brakelite.

You said;

It has been said, and I think wisely, that the Bible must be understood grammatically before it can be understood theologically. Anti- as in antichrist, according to Strong's concordance, and like other words having the prefix 'anti', means at it's most basic form not simply 'opposite' but also "in the room of", "instead of", or "in the place of".
In other words, 'antichrist' means against or opposite of by a particular and specific method...it stands as a substitute.

"Anti" means opposite, against, or in place of.

You are placing great emphasis on the meaning "in place of".

Then you force the meaning "by a particular and specific method" to the conclusion that it means "substitute".
Antichrist is simply the man who denies the Christ.

An antichrist opposes Christ.

Brakelite the AC is opposed to Christ and his followers.

An AC would never substitute for Christ.

An AC could appear as an angel of light but not the Christ.

You want the AC to be the papacy of Rome, can you see that you are forcing the text to suit your stance.

Once again, the papacy does not deny the Christ they simply corrupt the doctrines.

The Catholic Church really believes it is the true Church of God.

To deny is an active process, to not believe is passive.

The AC is driven to oppose the truth, he is against the truth.

This AC will kill you brakelite, he is active in opposition to the church.

The devil is opposed to God absolutely, he kills and destroys.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

El Hombre Viejo and David777,

The Antichrist will be an ally of Israel and fight the Arabs first Daniel 11:39-43a, and the Russian alliance with the other Muslims listed in Ezekiel 38:1-12 in the second wave Daniel 11:43b
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Second Thessalonians 2:8-12 explains that everyone who hears but does not believe the truth of the gospel of Jesus before the rapture will believe the lie of Antichrist. This is because God will send them strong delusion. Therefore, God will give the Antichrist the crown of leadership in the Christian nations, as indicated in Revelation 6:2. The Antichrist will sign a treaty with many that divides the land of Israel and supposedly brings lasting peace. The Antichrist will come on a white horse as a peace enforcer when Egypt and Syria break the peace treaty as described in Daniel 11:40–43a below.
The Antichrist on the White Horse

Daniel 11:40–43 KJV

40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt:

Daniel informs us that the king of the south will push at or attack the Antichrist. This represents Egypt attacking the Antichrist, who will
have divided the land. The king of Syria from north of Israel will also attack the Antichrist.
You may wonder how I concluded that Egypt and Syria will attack the Antichrist. The king of Egypt from the south and the king of Assyria from the north are first mentioned in the first half of this chapter. They will be the same countries later in the chapter, but later in time.
How can Egypt and Syria attack the Antichrist who is leading America? Are they going to “walk” over the ocean? It could be that America will enforce the peace treaty signed by many so that an attack on Israel will also be an attack on America. Another possibility could be that America will still have an army in Iraq or Afghanistan. Then the Egyptians and Syrians could march to attack the army of the Antichrist.
Why would Egypt and Syria think they would have a chance to win a fight with Israel and America? One answer is that America will be weaker after the rapture of the born-again Christians. Another explanation could be that they will expect help from Russia.
In Ezekiel 38:4, it is clear that God will turn back Magog or the Russia of the north when Russia intends to attack Israel and the Antichrist’s army. Later, God will put a hook in the jaw of Russia and cause them to advance against Israel after the Egyptians and Syrians have been destroyed. When the Egyptians and Syrians attack, the Antichrist will counterattack the Syrians and Lebanese and perhaps the Iraqis, and will then turn south and pass through Israel, the glorious land, into Egypt.

I understand what you are saying but now I have to make it two Krispy Cremes. He's a Muslim.

 

[brakelite]

Another reminder David....

The Bible itself reveals to us the absolute certainty of the Antichrist being a counterfeit Christian religious system....From "Were they right"...

It is true that in certain cases 'anti' does mean opposition, as in the word 'antidikos', the Greek word for adversary, in reference to Satan, particularly in the setting or context of the court room, which echoes the angels description of him as the accuser of the brethren.

However, there are also cases where 'anti' can mean instead of, or in the room of. One such example is antilutron which means ransom, the redemption price for our salvation.
'Anti' is a primary particle which does mean opposite, but the opposition comes by way of substitution.

The entire system of the future manifestation of Babylon the Great of which the Antichrist is a part, lies in the principle of being a counterfeit. A counterfeit which in practice opposes truth and the kingdom of God, but not by direct confrontation, but through deception, by establishing itself in the place of the true Christ.Not only is this so in life as we view the papacy, but prophecy also reveals this.
Antichrist is a substitute god for the real God. It is a counterfeit trinity. The Antichrist shows himself that he is god, (2 Thess.2:4) thus the worship that goes to him is also counterfeit.

Carefully study the following. They are comparisons revealing the true from the counterfeit. The final revelation of the Antichrist is Satan's final amalgum of all that he has been preparing for 6000 years or so. In the beginning he started with a simple form of false worship. (Cain). He progressed quickly to a corporate model, (Babel), finetuning as he went along, (Babylon), adding various influences in order to deceive more readily, (Media/Persia, Greece and Rome,) getting close to his final creation of evil in te papacy, and soon to be revealed his final consummate deceptive creation, comprising all that had gone before, the hereditary kingdoms of the composite beast of Rev. 13 being the Antichrist or papacy, the false prophet being the protestant manifestation of its image, and the dragon itself directing everything and everyone to worship himself. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Revel. 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Revel. 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

The final enemy of Christ. The church sitting upon the state power guiding the state to to do her will, and being supported by its legislative powers. What the papacy accompolished locally in Europe during the dark ages will soon be repeated on a global scale with the ecumenical assistance of apostate protestantism. The mother church has her daughters back home, and they have become as much a harlot and fornicating adulteress as she was.

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Revel. 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Not an individual here David. A church. A church who has illicit relations with political powers. A traditional trademark of Rome.



[HIGH-LIGHT]Dragon/Satan.[/HIGH-LIGHT]
His place in heaven (Rev 12:3, 7, 8.)
He has a throne. (Rev 13:2; 2:13)
Gives throne, power, and authority to sea-beast. (13:2,4.)
He is worshipped. (13:4a)
Destroyed forever. (20:9,10)

Now compare:
[HIGH-LIGHT]God the Father[/HIGH-LIGHT]
Dwelling in heaven (Rev 4,5)
He has a throne. (4:5; 7:9-15; 19:4)
Gives throne, power and authority to Jesus. (Math 28:18 Rev 2:27; 3:21; chapters 4,5.)
Is worshipped. (Rev 4:10; 15:4)
Lives and reign forever. (4:9; 5:13; 11:15)


[RED]The Land-beast or false prophet.[/RED]
Called the false prophet because he decieves people with regards to religious matters. (16:13; 19:20; 20:10)
Lamb-like. (13:11)
Exercises all authority of sea-beast. (13:12a)
Directs worship to sea-beast. (13:12b,15)
Performs signs. (13:13; 19:20)
Brings fire down from heaven (13:13)
Gives breath/life to beasts image (13:15)
Applies mark of beast. (13:16)

Now compare:
[RED]The Holy Spirit[/RED]
Called the Spirit of truth guiding people. (Jn 16:13 Rev 22:17)
Christ-like. (Jn 16:14)
Exercises authority of Christ (Jn 16:13, 14)
Directs worship to Christ (Acts 5:29-32)
Fire from heaven at Pentecost (Acts 2)
Instills life to us, the image of Christ. (Romans8:11,29)
Applies seal of God. (2 Cor 1:22 Eph 1:13 4:30 Rev 7:3, 4.)

[HIGH-LIGHT]The sea-beast or antichrist.[/HIGH-LIGHT]
Comes from water to begin activity. (13:1)
Resembles dragon. (12:13 13:1)
Ten diadems. (13:1)
Ten horns (13:1)
Receives power throne and authority from dragon/Satan. (13:2,4)
42 months of activity in first phase. (13:5)
Was slain (13:3)
Resurrected (13:3)
Receives worship after healing (13:3,4,8)

Now compare:
[HIGH-LIGHT]Jesus Christ[/HIGH-LIGHT]
Comes from water to begin ministry (Luke 3:21-23)
Resembles Father (Jn 14:19)
Many diadems (Rev 19:12)
Lamb has 7 horns (5:6)
Receives power throne and authority from His Father (Math 28:18 Rev 2:27 Chapters 4,5)
42 months of ministry in initial phase. (Gospel of John)
Was slain (Rev 5:6)
Was resurrected (Rev1:18)
Received worship after resurrection (Math 28:17)

For those who would indulge in thinking that perhaps Islam or some other religion or religious leader is the Antichrist, I would remind them that counterfeits are copies of the truth, copies of the real. You do not get counterfeit $99 notes. The counterfeit religion, the counterfeit god, the counterfeit worship of the last days, Babylon the Great, is a quasi Christian form of worship, a Christian God, a Christian form of church. That my friends is what makes it so dangerous, so deceptive.

 

[David777]

Hello brakelite.

You made a claim brakelite, certainly not the following,

The Bible itself reveals to us the absolute certainty of the Antichrist being a counterfeit Christian religious system

The antichrist is the MAN of lawlessness, the SON of perdition.

There appears to be some confusion on your behalf brakelite.

You a confusing the great harlot (RCC) with the beast and the false prophet.

The harlot is judged first, then Christ appears riding a white horse with the armies of heaven. Then the beast and the false prophet are judged.

These are separate events.

I have seen no connection in the book of Revelations
between these groups.

Revelations 19

After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God! 2 For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her.” 3 Again they said, “Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!” 4 And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sat on the throne, saying, “Amen! Alleluia!” 5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying, “Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both small and great!”
6 And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! 7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Christ on a White Horse

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

The Beast and His Armies Defeated

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Further regarding the separation of the beast and the harlot.
<sup class="versenum">
</sup>Revelations 17

15 Then he said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. 16 And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

See how the ten horns burn her with fire.

They are separate.

You said,
getting close to his final creation of evil in the papacy, and soon to be revealed his final consummate deceptive creation, comprising all that had gone before, the hereditary kingdoms of the composite beast of Rev. 13 being the Antichrist or papacy, the false prophet being the protestant manifestation of its image, and the dragon itself directing everything and everyone to worship himself.

Some protestant churches are her daughters, yes.

The false prophet directs worship to the dragon, yes.

The beast destroys Rome, so he is not there is he brakelite.
Nor is the false prophet. You said they were the papacy
but Rome was destroyed, the harlot was destroyed.
Then God attacks and destroys the beast, false prophet
and the supporting armies.

 

[brakelite]

You are correct David, that the beast, the false prophet and the dragon are separate. But remember, we are talking about imagery here. God is revealing to us through the various symbols what and how things will be. At present we see the papacy as a union of church and state. Throughout the dark ages this was one of her identifying characteristicsThe first beast of Revelation 13 is a picture of the Antichrist...but is a broad sweep of history as Satan had designed it to be. Beginning with Babylon and growing into the present composite we see today. Each head representing a different stage of growth, each horn a different aspect of power. All devilish, all Antichrist. One of the heads remember wounded to death. This head was the medieval papacy that was overthrown in 1798 by the French. All the world at that time thought Catholicism finished, and celebrated. However, true to the prophecy, the head revived, and in 1928 Mussolini returned the Vatican state to the pope, and the church/ state union continues.

The woman riding the beast is simply a finer definition of the church/state union. The church (the religious side of the papacy) riding the beast (the state or political side of the papacy, remembering that the popes claim both religious and temporal rule over the whole earth). The difference between the state part today in comparison with the dark ages is that it is soon to global than just European. The ten horns of the beast in Daniel represented European nations, the ten horns on the revelation beast represent ten horns on a global scale. It is yet to be shown how that will be manifested in real life...there are several different opinions how that may transpire. After a time of union with the church, the world political rulers will realise the deception, and turn on her, drying up the rivers of Babylon making way for the kings of the east, the second coming.

 

[David777]

In reply.

I do understand your eschatology brakelite.

There are some weaknesses however.

The Roman Catholic Church is a dying church, it has been
on a sharp decline for over thirty years.

I was reading an article by a catholic concerning the
fall in the number of priests, brothers and nuns.
Amazing figures to say the least, if the trend continues
the Catholic church will face extinction.

This decline is no doubt tied in with the profound
inability of the this church to change over time and
adapt to a rapidly changing landscape.

Over here in Australia our press has been dominated
by exposed pedophiles operating within the Catholic
church structure. This has been occurring for close 0
to twenty years.

Everyone is seriously over the RCC.

Still the catholic church is unable to correct itself.
It is a behemoth of tradition, smothered by its own
errors. It is a relic of an institution that men created.

I do strongly doubt that it can recover brakelite.

Given that the great falling away has only just begun
I think.

The daughter churches of the RCC are also in decline.

You may be barking up the wrong tree on this point.

Also, I do not agree that the AC is the papacy.

The AC fights wars and wins, a leader of astounding
ability. He is not performing the sign of the cross and
saying hail mary's. The AC is controlling the world, political.

Your eschatology may be too restricted in its attempt
to assemble a grand unifying theory. Because many
areas have not been fulfilled it is just too difficult
to be accurate in identifying the players roles.

Then again, since I virtually know your eschatology
backwards, should the one in a million happen
then you will be listening to my sermons on the
sabbath and the mark of the beast.

Be watchful and ready.

 

[brakelite]

I do understand your eschatology brakelite.

There are some weaknesses however.

The Roman Catholic Church is a dying church, it has been
on a sharp decline for over thirty years.

I was reading an article by a catholic concerning the
fall in the number of priests, brothers and nuns.
Amazing figures to say the least, if the trend continues
the Catholic church will face extinction.

This decline is no doubt tied in with the profound
inability of the this church to change over time and
adapt to a rapidly changing landscape.

Over here in Australia our press has been dominated
by exposed pedophiles operating within the Catholic
church structure. This has been occurring for close 0
to twenty years.

Everyone is seriously over the RCC.

Still the catholic church is unable to correct itself.
It is a behemoth of tradition, smothered by its own
errors. It is a relic of an institution that men created.

I do strongly doubt that it can recover brakelite.

Given that the great falling away has only just begun
I think.

The daughter churches of the RCC are also in decline.

You may be barking up the wrong tree on this point.

Also, I do not agree that the AC is the papacy.

The AC fights wars and wins, a leader of astounding
ability. He is not performing the sign of the cross and
saying hail mary's. The AC is controlling the world, political.

Your eschatology may be too restricted in its attempt
to assemble a grand unifying theory. Because many
areas have not been fulfilled it is just too difficult
to be accurate in identifying the players roles.

Then again, since I virtually know your eschatology
backwards, should the one in a million happen
then you will be listening to my sermons on the
sabbath and the mark of the beast.

Be watchful and ready.

The Catholic Church itself doesn't have to be on top of its game to fulfil the prophetic role she plays. I agree that there is a massive decline in interest in things Catholic; their persistent inability (or dermination) not to deal adequately and honestly with the abuse crisis (which is worldwide) is indicative of a monster that will never change her ways. However, she doesn't have to have a growing support base amongst the common herd for the political rulers of this world to hand over their independence to the Vatican. In a time of global crisis, when the world is reeling under an assault of climactic disasters, financial meltdown, social upheavals, resource depletion, rampant crime and moral indifference, the leaders of the world will be only too glad to place their nations sovereignty in the hands of the only globally recognised leader with the power base to (whether in decline it matters not) unite the world under one authority as a panacea against perceived extinction. I am utterly convinced that the coming crisis will be of such magnitude, and worse.


Nor does everyone need to have their name implanted upon the local Catholic church registry to be counted as being loyal to that global authority. A simple agreement to follow the rules of said authority will suffice. Whether out of conscientious devotion to what they perceive as truth (the mark in the forehead), or from an attitude of selfish convenience (the mark in the hand) it matters not. A thinly veiled threat of 'switching off access to bank accounts' will be enough to induce most to relinquish any resistance to this new world order. A promise to regularly attend church on a Sunday (at whatever denomination) will be a small price to pay (or so they think) for their next meal.

Be sure I will be listening out for your sermons...methinks I will not have long to wait.

 

[David777]

In reply.

When I read Revelations chapters 17, 18 and 19.

This is clearly revealed as God's judgement upon her.

I must stress this point brakelite, it is not so much
her role in the end times as her role through the
history of the New Covenant. These chapters
explain her role in church history and her
judgement. It does not reveal that she has
a major role in the end times. In fact she recieves
her reward from God, obliteration in the end times.

Where as the AC and false prophet are the present
tense in Revelations. They appear at the end of time,
they are presented in the last scenes. They are
powerful opponents that crush Christianity. They
have parts to play at the end of the great saga.

I am not sure whether you notice this when you
read Revelations.

We do read Revelations differently brakelite.

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Every person who hears the truth of the gospel of Jesus and rejects Him will be caused by God to believe the lies of the antichrist. They all will join the apostate christian church after the rapture of the true believers because of their fear. The apostate church will be an ecumenical christian church not only a catholic church.

Paul, the author of the books to the Thessalonians, explains that it was not the day of the Lord in their time. He gave two signs that would come before the day of the Lord. First, he said there will be a turning away from God by those who had the understanding of God. Second Peter 3 also describes this falling away as men becoming willingly ignorant. The second sign Paul gave was revealing of the Antichrist. Paul said that we will recognize the Antichrist because he will sit on the throne in the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem and declare that he is God.
2 Thessalonians 2:6–12 KJV
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in
his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

38 AMERICA’S LAST WARNING

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Paul explains that someone is restraining the Antichrist. When that someone is removed from the scene, the Antichrist will come to power. The Christians who have the Holy Spirit in them are the salt of the earth and the light of the world (Matthew 5:13–16). This means that we, with the influence of the Holy Spirit in us, are presently preventing worldwide corruption the same way that the proper amount of salt preserves country ham. When God calls the Christians up in the air to go to heaven (during the rapture), He will also remove the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit. At that time, the Antichrist will be revealed
and come to power after the Christians have gone to heaven. Paul also explains that God will cause everyone who has heard and rejected the truth of the gospel to believe the lie of the Antichrist. Do
you understand what that means? It means there will be no second chance to be saved (become a
spiritually born-again Christian) during the tribulation period for those who rejected Christ before the tribulation period started.
Next, contemplate this question.
Now that we know it is the end of the last days because the Jews have returned to Israel, what country has heard the gospel of Christ more than any other?
America is the most evangelized country in the world. Therefore, after the calling up to heaven of the Christians, America will be the most deceived nation in the world because God will cause everyone who heard and rejected

AMERICA, THE LAST BABYLON 39

the truth of the gospel of Jesus to believe the lie of the Antichrist. That is why America will follow the Antichrist and will become the last-days’ Babylon. It is sad to say that all of the other Western powers who are in NATO, that are so-called Christian nations will also follow the Antichrist, in addition to South America, Canada, and Australia. One day, there will be Antichrist followers wherever there are now Christian missionaries.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Wow!! Now thats totally offensive. America is not even mentioned in the Bible. How can you say what you did about America?

 

[Acebopata]

America = mystery Babylon? Possible. But as seeing that a good portion who believe this is so are either hateful of America or in such idol-ship of America in so much they jump for joy at any notion of America being in Bible prophecy, no matter how good or bad it is for America, I'd be careful about heeding to any position on the issue without serious and independent studies of the scriptures.

 

[Eric E Stahl]

El Hombre Viejo,

Sorry I offended you. Consider this. America now has a large percent of faithful Christians who are witnessing. 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 teaches that everyone who has heard and understood the truth about Jesus but rejected Jesus will be caused by God to believe the lies of the antichrist after the rapture of the true Christians. The America we know will not be the same kind of country when the antichrist is given power. Dose that make sense to you?

Eric

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Acebopata,

America will be political Babylon, the home kingdom of antichrist, not Mystery Babylon which is the apostate ecumenical Christian church after the rapture.

Eric

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Eric Has it occurred to you that the Babylon that the bible talks about is just that? Babylon. Iraq is Babylon. It always has been. America, with all the other countries of the world will definitely be effected by the antichrist but....She is NOT Babylon. Babylon is Babylon.