Mid-tribulation

kevinlb63 · Feb 9, 2012

yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the pope doe this day after day saying to himself i am the Mediator to god!!
he leaves christ out of it. he dont need christ! all he need is mary and himself.
and no man can go to heaven unless thay go threw me!! all popes proclaim this
it is a fact and the world runs after him. and in the end christ will let every one see him for what he is ! satans little helper.

Fraction · Feb 9, 2012

David777 said:
This must be one of the most confusing threads i have read.

Lots and lots of speculation.

I must have heard of twenty possible candidates for the antichrist, during my Christian life.

Everyone is always so sure there right!

This is what amazes me above all.

How come the candidates for the AC are usually defined by the era they exist in.
Somewhat akin to theology and philosophy. Check the current philosophy in an era
and behold you will find the birth of the appropriate theology.

If the AC is not revealed until JC returns according to 2Thess, how will we ultimately know?

How about a gentle suggestion of the candidate with some supportive evidence.
Excluding the "I may not be right, but I am never wrong attitude".

Gentle as a dove and cunning as a serpent, i think someone uttered.

People have been saying these things for a thousand years, probably even longer. This isn't the first conspiracy theory, and it will not be the last.

lecoop · Feb 9, 2012

Eric E Stahl said:
<style>  </style> Understanding the time line for the middle of the tribulation

Revelation 11:15 KJV

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

WHAT HAPPENED TO cause the kingdoms of this world to become
the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ?

Revelation 12:7–14 KJV
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against
the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

When the seventh angel blows the trumpet to start the second half of the tribulation period called the great tribulation, God declares war on Satan. God sends the archangel Michael with the faithful angels to defeat the dragon we call the Devil, or Satan. Satan will be cast to the earth with the rebellious angels, and we see that the dragon, or Satan, will persecute Israel (the woman) for a short time.
Did you notice that the third woe corresponds to the seventh trumpet judgment?
Verse twelve indicates that the Devil is the third woe! Then the passage goes on to say that the people of Israel are carried away on the wings of an eagle. It will be for three-and-a-half times, or three-and-a-half years. The sixth trumpet judgment was finished one hour after the two witnesses completed their 1260 day ministry and completed the first half of the seven-year tribulation. The seventh trumpet judgment and third woe will last through the last three-and-a-half years of the tribulation and will complete the seven-year tribulation period. Therefore, the seventh trumpet judgment lasts for the whole time of the great tribulation.
If you were taught that Revelation 11:15 refers to the end of the tribulation, I hope you now understand that the seventh trumpet judgment occurs in the middle of it. Yes, the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and His Son Jesus Christ in the middle of the tribulation by heavenly warfare.

Isaiah 24:17–23 KJV
17 Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

In the tribulation period, after the earth starts to reel to and fro because of the asteroid impact in Revelation 8:8, In verse 21 the host of the high ones is Satan and his rebellious angels. They will be gathered to the earth together with the kings of the earth by God, and the rebellious angels will be imprisoned with the rebellious men on the earth and be shut up for many days. It will be for three-and-a-half years, as we saw in Revelation 12:14. God will conquer the Devil and cast him to the earth for judgment. The Lord and His Christ will not occupy the earth during the three-and-a-half years of the great tribulation, but they will own the earth and will use it as a prison. After the battle of Armageddon, Jesus will rule the earth with a rod of iron, or by force. During the last half of the tribulation, God’s judgment of earth will increase in intensity over time.

Eric, I was astounded to see you understand the 7th trumpet as a marker for the midpoint! GREAT JOB!!!

However, I don't believe the evidence given shows us that the two witnesses testify during the first half. I am convinced John sees them in the vision the very moment they show up on the earth to begin their testimony. When would that be?

First, notice that the Antichrist shows up in Jerusalem (Rev. 11:1 & 2)
perhaps a week or two before the midpoint. (Just a guess, for John does not tell us.) OF COURSE He must get to Jerusalem if he is to enter the temple there - agreed? So he arrives some time before he enters the temple.

Next, John sees the arrival of the two witnesses. When do they arrive? I am convinced they arrive exactly 3 1/2 days before the abomination that divides the week, at which time the 7th trumpet sounds in heaven, marking that time in heaven. They testify for 1260 days, are killed, lay dead for 3 1/2 days, and rise from the dead at the 7th vial that marks the END of the 70th week. That is the last 24 hour day of the 70th week and the time of the resurrection of ALL the Old Testament saints. ("I will raise them up on the last day)

Rev 11:4-13 is written as a parenthesis (as you have evidently discovered) or a SIDE journey, having no bearing at all on John's chronology. So verse 3 is 3 1/2 days before the abomination that divides the week, and verse 15 is the exact midpoint. 12:6 then, is seconds AFTER the abomination.

I believe what happens at the 7th trumpet is that the LEASE agreement (the scroll or book with the 7 seals) RUNS OUT at the 7th trumpet, or rather, the 7th trumpet marks the END of the first 6000 years and the END of Adam's lease. Since Satan's ONLY claim on the kingdoms of the world is his USURPING of Adam's lease, the moment the lease runs out, suddenly he as NO LEGAL recourse, and therefore the 7th trumpet is Michael's signal that Satan's reign as the god of this world and time for him to KICK SATAN DOWN from the high places of the atmosphere. It is WAR in the heavenlies, and Satan LOSES.

The great importance then, of someone worthy to break the seals is very plain: if no one was found worthy, and if the seals were not broken, Satan would remain the god of this world on into eternity.

THANK GOD Jesus became worthy, by dying for us and REDEEMING us back to the Father! Hallelujah!!!

Coop

lecoop · Feb 9, 2012

farout said:
I read your profile, and believe it or not we live on a hill that's all linestone. The rocks are very unique and tell many stories. You have an interesting job.

Once in Christian college we were challenged to see if a person who just had a Bible could read it and come out as a pre, mid or post trib believer. For that matter can one read the Bible and come out with and of Darby's theories?

Have you ever given much thought that if a theory of the return of Jesus does not follow what the Master says in Matthew 24, than it just might not be correct?

What needs to take place for Jesus to come, anything?

The ONLY thing remaining is for the Father to say GO!!!!

OF COURSE the return of Jesus will follow Matthew 24, for that is every bit as much the word of God as 1 Thes. 4:17. But when Jesus said those words, the church did not even exist! He was giving the end of the ISRAELI people, not the church; i.e., the 70th week. In fact, He covered the entire church age in the first few verses, then jumped into the 70th week at the Midpoint. His coming there is to be compared to His coming in Rev 24, NOT His coming in 1 thes. 4.

Coop

lecoop · Feb 9, 2012

rodd said:
Think we've got 42mths of persecution under the oppression of AC first, Rev 13, he has authority to make war against the saints 42mths.
That's the first half of the final 7yrs, or time times and half a time, 31/2 years. After that comes the judgements of God.
Before this, the church is in heaven at this stage, see Chpt7:9. The Jews that are saved go through the tribulation and are translated at the very end, also Chpt 7.

After Syria falls to western democracy, the peace treaty will come quickly, presided over by Antichrist, a 7 yr treaty, see Daniel 9:27.
I'm certain the church is raptured mid-trib, about the halfway point of this last seven years.
If Syria falls to western control mid year, we could see the Mid East Peace Treaty before 2013 and the beginning of the time of tribulation.
The elevation of Antichrist is seen in Daniel 11:43, he conquers Egypt and Libya, then the final conquest prior to the treaty is Syria.
That's why he's often referred to as the Syrian, but this is an alias or by-name, he conquers Syria as he did the others.
So he subdues all the local Arab nations before the big day! It's happening now with one major politician at the forefront, see if you can join the dots.

God Bless.

Rodd, why are you so certain it is mid-trib? Perhaps you are mistaken about where the "trib" begins in Revelation. The raptured church is seen around the throne in Rev. 7, and the 70th week (and the Day of the Lord) begins in chapter 8 at the breaking of the 7th seal (30 minutes of silence) and then WITH the first trumpet judgment.

So John is in PERFECT agreement with Paul as to the timing. Paul wrote that the rapture would come before the "Day of the Lord." In fact, I believe Paul is telling us that the rapture will be the TRIGGER for the Day. So both are in total agreement.

Coop

lecoop · Feb 9, 2012

David777 said:
This must be one of the most confusing threads i have read.

Lots and lots of speculation.

I must have heard of twenty possible candidates for the antichrist, during my Christian life.

Everyone is always so sure there right!

This is what amazes me above all.

How come the candidates for the AC are usually defined by the era they exist in.
Somewhat akin to theology and philosophy. Check the current philosophy in an era
and behold you will find the birth of the appropriate theology.

If the AC is not revealed until JC returns according to 2Thess, how will we ultimately know?

How about a gentle suggestion of the candidate with some supportive evidence.
Excluding the "I may not be right, but I am never wrong attitude".

Gentle as a dove and cunning as a serpent, i think someone uttered.

You are right: NO ONE will know who the antichrist is until he is REVEALED. And Paul wrote that he will not be revealed until the restrainer is "taken out of the way." That restrainer taken out of the way IS THE RAPTURE of the Bride. So if we are part of the bride, we are not going to know. I would not be surprised if Maitreya is the false prophet. But who really knows?

Coop

rodd · Feb 9, 2012

David777 said:
This must be one of the most confusing threads i have read.

Lots and lots of speculation.

I must have heard of twenty possible candidates for the antichrist, during my Christian life.

Everyone is always so sure there right!

This is what amazes me above all.

How come the candidates for the AC are usually defined by the era they exist in.
Somewhat akin to theology and philosophy. Check the current philosophy in an era
and behold you will find the birth of the appropriate theology.

If the AC is not revealed until JC returns according to 2Thess, how will we ultimately know?

How about a gentle suggestion of the candidate with some supportive evidence.
Excluding the "I may not be right, but I am never wrong attitude".

Gentle as a dove and cunning as a serpent, i think someone uttered.

I would have considered this discussion respectful and cordial and a credit to those involved.

And no, I don't see a hint of arrogance on the part of those involved in this thread, we've all confessed we are very dependant on the holy spirit, who is the revealer of mysteries.

2Thess verse7, says the secret power of lawlessness is at work, Antichrist is not omniscient and omnipotent as we should know, he has his systems and followers hidden he must rise to power through natural means he cannot create out of nothing, therefore he needs to decieve and be supported by powerful people.
So why wouldn't he create a paper trail?

Getting back to the validity of discussing the second coming, 2 thousand years since the Jews previously occupied Israel! the third temple to be built that the AC will desecrate?
Israel like a roaring lion, the power nation of the Mid East, it's all happening.

Read Rev 1:3, blessed are those who take the words of this book to heart, in other words think and pray about them, cause they will be blessed.

The last thing Satan wants us to know is the identity of the AC.
The Revelation is for our comfort in the coming times, that's why its full of clues for us to know!!!!

Eric E Stahl · Feb 9, 2012

The coming of the antichrist and the two witness

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urple; text-decoration:underline; text-underline:single;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> To lecoop,

The sixth trumpet judgment was finished one hour after the two

witnesses completed their 1260 day ministry and completed the first

half of the seven-year tribulation. The seventh trumpet judgment and

third woe will last through the last three-and-a-half years of the

tribulation and will complete the seven-year tribulation period.

Therefore, the seventh trumpet judgment lasts for the whole time of

the great tribulation.

The antichrist will come riding a white horse to conquer Egypt and Syria at the

start of the tribulation because they break the treaty. See Daniel 11:40-43a. The

antichrist will stay in Israel with the western armies and will fight Russia and its

allies when God puts a hook in its jaw and draws Russia to Israel.

David777 · Feb 9, 2012

Hello Rodd.

I love eschatology, i read all posts in all eschatology debates.

I am all for the discussion on this topic.

What I said in my post related to naming the specific AntiChrist.

Or should I say "man of lawlessness".

I will give you some examples,

come out of your cave! the Antichrist is in power and he is the pope!

As President of France Sarkozy... Anyhow he's my prime suspect,...he ticks all the boxes.

That's why he's often referred to as the Syrian, but this is an alias or by-name, he conquers Syria as he did the others.

and old pope Benedict XVI might just be the last antichrist.

The man of lawlessness is a tremendous person in eschatology.
He controls the entire world, unrivaled power, never seen before
in human history. Almost invisible to all and sundry as he wields the
strings of power over the earth.

Like I said before, there would need to be a truckload of evidence
to support a claim of that magnitude.

I repeat I have no problem with different positions in eschatology.

kevinlb63 · Feb 9, 2012

To lecoop!! the restrainer is Michael the Archangel !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! not the rapture!!!!!!!!!!!!
and the word after means after! and with all the proof below if you dont get it you are lost in the word!!!
1 thessalonians chapter 3:1 to 8
1 Wherefore when we could no longer forbear!!, we thought it good to be left at Athens alone;
2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God,
and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ!, to establish! you, and to comfort you concerning your faith!!:
3 That {{no man should be moved by these {{afflictions}}: for {{yourselves}} know that we! are!{appointed there unto!}.
4 For {{verily}}, when we were with you, we told you before!! that {{we should suffer tribulation!!}};<<<<< even as it
{{came! to pass!!}}, and ye know.
5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your {{faith}},
lest! by some means the {{tempter have tempted}} you, and our labour be in {{vain}}!!!.
6 But now when Timotheus came from you unto us, and brought us good tidings of your faith and charity,
and that ye have good remembrance of us always, desiring greatly to see us, as we also to see you:
7 Therefore, brethren, {{we were comforted}} over you in all our {{{affliction and distress}}} by your faith:
8 For now we live!, {{if ye stand fast in the Lord}}.

AS WE ARE NOT OPPOINTED TO WRATH !!!!! WHAT! PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND IS THE WRATH IT! IS TALKING ABOUT
IS THE WRATH OF GOD!!!! JESUS SAID WE WOULD SUFFER TRIBULATIONS JUST LIKE THE MESSAGE ABOVE!!AND BELOW!!!
wich is the wrath of the Devil !!!!!
EVEN WE WHO LOVE CHRIST WILL BE PERSICUTED AFFLICTED AND SUFFER TRIBULATIONS.
matthew 24
21 For then shall be {great tribulation}, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be {shortened, there should no flesh be saved: {but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened}.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the {very elect}.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately {after} the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And {then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven}: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

MARK 13:24 But in those days, {after} the tribulation, the sun shall be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the {{Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory}}.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together{ his elect }from the four winds,
from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven

I THESSALONIANS 3:4 For {{verily}}, when we were {{with you}},
we told you before!! that {{we should suffer tribulation!!}};

I thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,
that we {which are alive and remain} unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are {asleep}.
:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,
and with the {{trump of God}} and the dead in Christ shall rise {first}: the trump of god is the 7th and last!!
:17 Then we which are {{alive and remain}} shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

II THESSALONIANS 2:[3] Let no{{ man}} deceive you by any means:
for that day shall {{{not come}},
except there come a falling away first,
and that {{{man of sin be revealed}},
the {{{son of perdition}}};
[4] Who {opposeth} and {exalteth} himself above all that is called {God},
or that is worshipped; so that he {as God}
{sitteth in the temple of God}
{shewing himself that he is{ God}.
MY FREINDS SITTING IN THE TEMPLE AND SHOWING HIMSELF
THAT HE IS GOD.. MEANS HE IS IN POWER!!!! AND THAT IS THE WORD OF GOD!!! IT IS NOT MY WORDS!!!
AND AFTER MEANS AFTER / AFTER AFERT AFTER
[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you,
I told you these things?

II THESSALONIANS 2:9] Even{ him,} {jesus}
whose coming is{ after } a.f. t. e. r. the working of {Satan}
luke 21 1 thru 36
1 And he looked up, and saw the {{{rich men casting their gifts into the treasury}}}.
2 And he saw also a certain {{poor widow casting in thither two mites}}.
3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, {{that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all }}:
4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God:
but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.
5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come,
in which there shall not be left one stone upon another,
that shall not be thrown down.
7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be?
and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name,
saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, {{be not terrified: for these things must {{first come to pass}};
{{but the end is not by and by}}.
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences;
and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12 But before all these, they shall {{ lay their hands on you, and persecute you,
delivering you up to the synagogues},and into prisons}},
{{ being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake}}}.
13 {{{And it shall turn to you for a testimony}}}.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts,{{{ not to meditate before what ye shall answer}}:
15 {{{ For I will give you a mouth and wisdom,
which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist }}}.
16 {{{ And ye shall be betrayed both by {parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends }}};
{and some of you shall they cause to be put to{{ death}}.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your {souls}.
20 {And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies},
then know that the desolation thereof is nigh!!!.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains;
and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are{ written may be fulfilled}}.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck,
in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people
24 {{And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations}}:
{{and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled}}.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars;
and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's {hearts failing them for fear}}, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth:
for the powers of {{heaven shall be shaken}}.
27 And {then} shall they see the {{Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory}}}.
28 And when these things begin to {{{come to pass}}}, {{then look up, and lift up your heads;
for your redemption draweth nigh}}}.
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the {{fig tree, and {{{all the trees}}};
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand}}}.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, {{till all be fulfilled}}.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting,
and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always,
that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass,
and to stand before the Son of man
there goes your pre rapture ! are you afraid to die for christ ! he died for you ! and so it will be for a lot of us! I love christ and i will die for him. and he told us we would for his names sake!

Eric E Stahl · Feb 9, 2012

To Kevinlb63,

The restrainer of sin is the Holy Spirit in the body of Christ. See John16:7-8 KJV.

kevinlb63 · Feb 9, 2012

you might be right i will read it but lecoop is off by saying it is the rapture!

lecoop · Feb 9, 2012

Eric E Stahl said:
<style>  </style> To lecoop,

The sixth trumpet judgment was finished one hour after the two

witnesses completed their 1260 day ministry and completed the first

half of the seven-year tribulation. The seventh trumpet judgment and

third woe will last through the last three-and-a-half years of the

tribulation and will complete the seven-year tribulation period.

Therefore, the seventh trumpet judgment lasts for the whole time of

the great tribulation.

The antichrist will come riding a white horse to conquer Egypt and Syria at the

start of the tribulation because they break the treaty. See Daniel 11:40-43a. The

antichrist will stay in Israel with the western armies and will fight Russia and its

allies when God puts a hook in its jaw and draws Russia to Israel.

Eric, I am now wondering if you forgot your first post: I quote:

"When the seventh angel blows the trumpet to start the second half of the tribulation period called the great tribulation, God declares war on Satan. God sends the archangel Michael with the faithful angels to defeat the dragon we call the Devil, or Satan. Satan will be cast to the earth with the rebellious angels, and we see that the dragon, or Satan, will persecute Israel (the woman) for a short time." (Emphasis added)

It seems you have disagreed with yourself.

Eric, a trumpet blast does not last all the way to the next trumpet! The sounder would run out of air! The sounding of a trumpet blast is the SIGNAL for an event to take place.

The 6th trumpet sounded, and ENDED the sounding. That was the SIGNAL for the events of the 6th trumpet.

<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30854">13</sup>And the sixth angel sounded, [and ENDED] and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30855">14</sup>Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30856">15</sup>And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

Finally these events END in 9:20-21:

<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30861">20</sup>And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30862">21</sup>Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

John then goes into an "intermission" between the 6th and 7th trumpet, exactly as he did between the 6th and 7th seals.

We might consider this a the closing of curtains of one "act" - the act being the real time events of the seals, trumpets and vials. But just as watches keep on keeping time when curtain closes at real plays, time keeps on during John's intermission. But NOT the real time of the main events - the seals, trumpets and vials.

So chapters 10,11, 12, 13, 14, 15 are all a part of this intermission - with one exception: John goes to real-time for the sounding of the 7th trumpet, then right back to the MIDPOINT intermission. Chapter 10 begins this intermission.

"The sixth trumpet judgment was finished one hour after the two
witnesses completed their 1260 day ministry and completed the first
half of the seven-year tribulation."

Sorry, but the sixth trumpet judgment is finished at 9:19. How can you say otherwise? What verse are you basing this on?

Next, what verse are you using to think the two witnesses testify in the first half? The first half begins with the 7th seal - and John makes NO MENTION of them. No, the truth is, they SHOW UP the very moment John sees them in the vision. That would be 3 1/2 days before the abomination. If you will notice, most of John's verb tenses throughout Revelation are Greek Aorist tenses, not inflected to show any kind of timing at all. But concerning the two witnesses, he changes to future tense verbs: "will give" & "shall prophesy" are both future tense. John simply could not have used these to fit your scenario.

If you notice, there is a great earthquake when they rise from the dead. There is also a great earthquake at the 7th vial. They are the very same earthquake.

Next, all the other 4 mentions of the 3 1/2 years is for the LAST 3 1/2. I am convinced that the 5th mention, the two witnesses is also for the last.

Finally, the word of the Lord came to me and I heard Him say, "whenever I mentioned an event that would start at the midpoint and go to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time."

Therefore, there can be no doubt that the two witnesses SHOW UP and begin to testify right where JOhn writes of them, which is EXACTLY 3 1/2 days before the abomination.

Sorry again, but the 7th trumpet blast, like ALL of them, will sound for a typical blast, then END. But that will be the SIGNAL for the events scheduled for that trumpet to follow. In this case, the 7th trumpet is the INTRODUCTION to the 7 vials. But the third woe is given - all we have to do is read:

Rev 12
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30904">12</sup>Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

The 7th trumpet marks the exact midpoint of the week, and is sounded in heaven at the same moment the man of sin is doing his abomination.

Where on earth do you get the antichrist riding a white horse?

PLEASE don't tell me the 1st seal! God would NEVER use white to represent evil! NEVER NEVER NEVER! John used white I believe 16 other times in Revelation and all to represent righteousness. It is MYTH to think God would use white to represent evil. That is TOTALLY against the rest of scriptures.

I guess we are going to disagree a lot.

Coop

lecoop · Feb 9, 2012

kevinlb63 said:
To lecoop!! the restrainer is Michael the Archangel !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! not the rapture!!!!!!!!!!!!
and the word after means after! and with all the proof below if you dont get it you are lost in the word!!!
1 thessalonians chapter 3:1 to 8
1 Wherefore when we could no longer forbear!!, we thought it good to be left at Athens alone;
2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God,
and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ!, to establish! you, and to comfort you concerning your faith!!:
3 That {{no man should be moved by these {{afflictions}}: for {{yourselves}} know that we! are!{appointed there unto!}.
4 For {{verily}}, when we were with you, we told you before!! that {{we should suffer tribulation!!}};<<<<< even as it
{{came! to pass!!}}, and ye know.
5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your {{faith}},
lest! by some means the {{tempter have tempted}} you, and our labour be in {{vain}}!!!.
6 But now when Timotheus came from you unto us, and brought us good tidings of your faith and charity,
and that ye have good remembrance of us always, desiring greatly to see us, as we also to see you:
7 Therefore, brethren, {{we were comforted}} over you in all our {{{affliction and distress}}} by your faith:
8 For now we live!, {{if ye stand fast in the Lord}}.

AS WE ARE NOT OPPOINTED TO WRATH !!!!! WHAT! PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND IS THE WRATH IT! IS TALKING ABOUT
IS THE WRATH OF GOD!!!! JESUS SAID WE WOULD SUFFER TRIBULATIONS JUST LIKE THE MESSAGE ABOVE!!AND BELOW!!!
wich is the wrath of the Devil !!!!!
EVEN WE WHO LOVE CHRIST WILL BE PERSICUTED AFFLICTED AND SUFFER TRIBULATIONS.
matthew 24
21 For then shall be {great tribulation}, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be {shortened, there should no flesh be saved: {but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened}.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the {very elect}.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately {after} the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And {then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven}: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

MARK 13:24 But in those days, {after} the tribulation, the sun shall be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the {{Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory}}.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together{ his elect }from the four winds,
from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven

I THESSALONIANS 3:4 For {{verily}}, when we were {{with you}},
we told you before!! that {{we should suffer tribulation!!}};

I thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,
that we {which are alive and remain} unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are {asleep}.
:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,
and with the {{trump of God}} and the dead in Christ shall rise {first}: the trump of god is the 7th and last!!
:17 Then we which are {{alive and remain}} shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

II THESSALONIANS 2:[3] Let no{{ man}} deceive you by any means:
for that day shall {{{not come}},
except there come a falling away first,
and that {{{man of sin be revealed}},
the {{{son of perdition}}};
[4] Who {opposeth} and {exalteth} himself above all that is called {God},
or that is worshipped; so that he {as God}
{sitteth in the temple of God}
{shewing himself that he is{ God}.
MY FREINDS SITTING IN THE TEMPLE AND SHOWING HIMSELF
THAT HE IS GOD.. MEANS HE IS IN POWER!!!! AND THAT IS THE WORD OF GOD!!! IT IS NOT MY WORDS!!!
AND AFTER MEANS AFTER / AFTER AFERT AFTER
[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you,
I told you these things?

II THESSALONIANS 2:9] Even{ him,} {jesus}
whose coming is{ after } a.f. t. e. r. the working of {Satan}
luke 21 1 thru 36
1 And he looked up, and saw the {{{rich men casting their gifts into the treasury}}}.
2 And he saw also a certain {{poor widow casting in thither two mites}}.
3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, {{that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all }}:
4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God:
but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.
5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come,
in which there shall not be left one stone upon another,
that shall not be thrown down.
7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be?
and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name,
saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, {{be not terrified: for these things must {{first come to pass}};
{{but the end is not by and by}}.
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences;
and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12 But before all these, they shall {{ lay their hands on you, and persecute you,
delivering you up to the synagogues},and into prisons}},
{{ being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake}}}.
13 {{{And it shall turn to you for a testimony}}}.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts,{{{ not to meditate before what ye shall answer}}:
15 {{{ For I will give you a mouth and wisdom,
which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist }}}.
16 {{{ And ye shall be betrayed both by {parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends }}};
{and some of you shall they cause to be put to{{ death}}.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your {souls}.
20 {And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies},
then know that the desolation thereof is nigh!!!.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains;
and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are{ written may be fulfilled}}.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck,
in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people
24 {{And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations}}:
{{and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled}}.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars;
and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's {hearts failing them for fear}}, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth:
for the powers of {{heaven shall be shaken}}.
27 And {then} shall they see the {{Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory}}}.
28 And when these things begin to {{{come to pass}}}, {{then look up, and lift up your heads;
for your redemption draweth nigh}}}.
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the {{fig tree, and {{{all the trees}}};
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand}}}.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, {{till all be fulfilled}}.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting,
and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always,
that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass,
and to stand before the Son of man
there goes your pre rapture ! are you afraid to die for christ ! he died for you ! and so it will be for a lot of us! I love christ and i will die for him. and he told us we would for his names sake!

My my my, Kevin! You are SO confused!! First you are confused about the restrainer. Can you find Michael ANYWHERE in 2 Thes. 2? I can't! But I can find he "gathering" and I can find the "departing." Why is this so difficult? It is in PERFECT agreement with Paul's first letter, where he shows us PLAINLY that the rapture comes JUST BEFORE the "day of the Lord." Please, show us some scripture for your theory?

OF COURSE after means after: AFTER the departing [of the church] THEN the man of sin will be revealed. This is not a difficult concept.

Tyndale:
1 Thes. 2:3 Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

Coverdale:
Let noman disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that that Man of synne be opened, euen the sonne of perdicion,

Geneva bible:
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

You are VERY confused about tribulation. Yes, OF COURSE we all experience "tribulation." Perhaps you did not read about the 3rd woe of Revelation? It is when the devil is cast down from heaven, VERY ANGRY because he knows what is coming. And he GOES TO WAR with all who refuse his mark. This is not your everyday "tribulation." Worse yet, God has ALREADY SAID that He has given the antichrist AUTHORITY over the saints. Can you find anywhere that God has given our everyday "tribulations" authority over us? NO NO NO! By faith we are suppose to OVERCOME these minor tribulations. Did not God tell Paul that His grace was sufficient?

Look, just believe what is written: if you are left behind, you are going to be faced with the mark or with death. The truth is, God has made a way of escape! It is not His will that ANY of his children face such a terrible decision. Hunger and be a VERY DRIVING force. Even more with thirst. Without a doubt, some left behind believers will fall and take the mark. That is why God has made a way of escape.

My question to you is, if God made a way, WHY NOT TAKE IT? Why rise up in pride, refuse His author, and make your OWN appointment with God's wrath? Did you not understand that while Satan is running wild putting millions to death, AT THE SAME TIME God is pouring out the vials of His wrath? INdeed, God's wrath begins with the 7th seal, and continues all through the trumpets and vials. Those days of great tribulation begin soon after the 7th trumpet, which marks the midpoint.

Of course I am not afraid to die for Christ. But neither will I be STUPID and refuse God's way of escape. It is His plan that ALL His church be ready for the PRETRIB rapture - but sadly, so many will be left behind. You see, He is coming for those WATCHING for His coming. For those not watching - those who are deceived into thinking they will see the Antichrist first - they will be left behind wondering. Kevin, I am trying to SAVE you and our readers from that.

Coop

lecoop · Feb 9, 2012

kevinlb63 said:
you might be right i will read it but lecoop is off by saying it is the rapture!

You just don't understand it yet, Kevin. Study verses 7 & 8 for a whole day. They the next day study verse 6. NOTICE that the theme of this whole passage is the GATHERING! How could anyone come up with a theory of meaning that excludes the gathering? We can be sure that the intent of the author WILL BE about the gathering.

Perhaps we should do this: Keven, take verses 7 & 8, and write out what you believe is the FULL intent of the author, to the best of your ability.

Then we can discuss that part.

Coop

brakelite · Feb 9, 2012

Futurism

I grew tired of reading through all the above for several reasons. Texts were taken out of context to support a preconceived theory. The futurist paradigm has turned Bible study into clairvoyance. (Jesus informed us that the correct way to understand prophecy is not to take pot shots at guessing the future but wait for the prophecy to be fulfilled. We are not to look ahead to interpret prophecy, but look at history.) To embrace futurism as a legitimate tool for eschatological study is to ignore 2500 years of history, 2500 years of fulfilled prophecy.
Another reason I tired of reading were the many unfounded beliefs that pop up continually in such discussions. 7 years of tribulation..... Rapture..... Peace treaty between Israel and the Antichrist...... Literal Israel being the woman of Rev. 12...... 1260 days being literal years......Not to mention all the contradictions which you yourselves are arguing over. All guesswork. Guesswork. Pulling texts out of the Bible to support your preconceived theories is not Bible study.

For an alternative to the above nonsense I suggest you all avail yourselves of the thread "Were they right?" established by yours truly. A long discussion yes, but its based on the rock solid foundation of history, and also on the ageless principle of true Bible study, allowing the Bible to interpret itself. God does want us to be warned of the coming crisis, and has left indelible evidence throughout scripture as to the identity of the Antichrist...no need for guesswork, the Bible has already identified him.

Nothing personal guys, but I've been where you are, and the gaps and questions that futurism raise are frustratingly unanswerable, and the theories change with every news bulletin. Try something different; something that doesn't change no matter what the current events are doing, and yet fits them perfectly.

Edit: the horrifying thought just occurred to me that some may conclude from the above that I am a preterist. No,no,no, NO!!!! Please, banish such ideas immediately. Oh horrors!

lecoop · Feb 10, 2012

brakelite said:
I grew tired of reading through all the above for several reasons. Texts were taken out of context to support a preconceived theory. The futurist paradigm has turned Bible study into clairvoyance. (Jesus informed us that the correct way to understand prophecy is not to take pot shots at guessing the future but wait for the prophecy to be fulfilled. We are not to look ahead to interpret prophecy, but look at history.) To embrace futurism as a legitimate tool for eschatological study is to ignore 2500 years of history, 2500 years of fulfilled prophecy.
Another reason I tired of reading were the many unfounded beliefs that pop up continually in such discussions. 7 years of tribulation..... Rapture..... Peace treaty between Israel and the Antichrist...... Literal Israel being the woman of Rev. 12...... 1260 days being literal years......Not to mention all the contradictions which you yourselves are arguing over. All guesswork. Guesswork. Pulling texts out of the Bible to support your preconceived theories is not Bible study.

For an alternative to the above nonsense I suggest you all avail yourselves of the thread "Were they right?" established by yours truly. A long discussion yes, but its based on the rock solid foundation of history, and also on the ageless principle of true Bible study, allowing the Bible to interpret itself. God does want us to be warned of the coming crisis, and has left indelible evidence throughout scripture as to the identity of the Antichrist...no need for guesswork, the Bible has already identified him.

Nothing personal guys, but I've been where you are, and the gaps and questions that futurism raise are frustratingly unanswerable, and the theories change with every news bulletin. Try something different; something that doesn't change no matter what the current events are doing, and yet fits them perfectly.

Can you pick one of these verses you claim are taken out of context?
You have made a bold statement. Of course I don't believe it, so expect you to back up what you say. Pick one scripture used above and prove it is taken out of context.

In truth, no ones opinion is worth anything unless is is backed by scripture taken IN CONTEXT.

Next, please give us the example of how Jesus taught us to look at prophecy. I read where Daniel discovered from previous prophecy that the captivity to Babylon was to be for 70 years, so began praying about it, realizing the 70 years were up. All thought the Old Testament, prophecies were given as WARNINGS for people to repent and to show them what was coming. Why would New Testament prophecies be any different?

Next, why would you think anyone is taking "potshots?" Can you not read the clear words of Paul that Jesus will descend with a shout, and the dead in Christ will rise - then we that are alive and remain will be caught up? Is believe what is written a "pot shot?" I don't think so.

If people WAIT for the rapture to be fulfilled to see what Paul meant, they will surely be LEFT BEHIND. NO, I disagree with you. These prophecies were written for us to BELIEVE and understand. Does "Revelation" mean hiding and confusion? I don't think so.

Sorry, NO GUESSING in my posts. No Potshots. Just good bible exegesis taking each verse in its context. It is sad that you do not believe what is so clearly written.

So what verse do you wish to discuss? You pick it out and we will discuss it. Then, instead of your broad generalizations, we will see what you really believe.

Coop

brakelite · Feb 10, 2012

lecoop said:
Can you pick one of these verses you claim are taken out of context?
You have made a bold statement. Of course I don't believe it, so expect you to back up what you say. Pick one scripture used above and prove it is taken out of context.

In truth, no ones opinion is worth anything unless is is backed by scripture taken IN CONTEXT.

Next, please give us the example of how Jesus taught us to look at prophecy. I read where Daniel discovered from previous prophecy that the captivity to Babylon was to be for 70 years, so began praying about it, realizing the 70 years were up. All thought the Old Testament, prophecies were given as WARNINGS for people to repent and to show them what was coming. Why would New Testament prophecies be any different?

Next, why would you think anyone is taking "potshots?" Can you not read the clear words of Paul that Jesus will descend with a shout, and the dead in Christ will rise - then we that are alive and remain will be caught up? Is believe what is written a "pot shot?" I don't think so.

If people WAIT for the rapture to be fulfilled to see what Paul meant, they will surely be LEFT BEHIND. NO, I disagree with you. These prophecies were written for us to BELIEVE and understand. Does "Revelation" mean hiding and confusion? I don't think so.

Sorry, NO GUESSING in my posts. No Potshots. Just good bible exegesis taking each verse in its context. It is sad that you do not believe what is so clearly written.

So what verse do you wish to discuss? You pick it out and we will discuss it. Then, instead of your broad generalizations, we will see what you really believe.

Coop

Here is a link to a post on the restrainer. http://www.talkjesus.com/evidence-bible-prophecy/38601-were-they-right-2.html#post184283

brakelite · Feb 10, 2012

lecoop said:
Can you pick one of these verses you claim are taken out of context?
You have made a bold statement. Of course I don't believe it, so expect you to back up what you say. Pick one scripture used above and prove it is taken out of context.

In truth, no ones opinion is worth anything unless is is backed by scripture taken IN CONTEXT.

Quote....Next, John sees the arrival of the two witnesses. When do they arrive? I am convinced they arrive exactly 3 1/2 days before the abomination that divides the week, at which time the 7th trumpet sounds in heaven, marking that time in heaven. They testify for 1260 days, are killed, lay dead for 3 1/2 days, and rise from the dead at the 7th vial that marks the END of the 70th week. That is the last 24 hour day of the 70th week and the time of the resurrection of ALL the Old Testament saints. ("I will raise them up on the last day)

This entire paragraph is based on the false assumptions that
a. There is a 7 year tribulation (no scriptural support)
b. The Antichrist appears in the middle of that 7 years (no scriptural support)
c. The 1260 days/42 months/ times time half a time represent 3 and 1/2 literal years (no scriptural support)
d. The two witnesses are literal people (no scriptural support)
e. The 70th week is still future (no scriptural support)
f. That the so-called 70th week is a time of tribulation (no scriptural support)
g. The resurrection 'on the last day' is limited to just old testament saints (no scriptural support)

lecoop said:
Next, please give us the example of how Jesus taught us to look at prophecy. I read where Daniel discovered from previous prophecy that the captivity to Babylon was to be for 70 years, so began praying about it, realizing the 70 years were up. All thought the Old Testament, prophecies were given as WARNINGS for people to repent and to show them what was coming. Why would New Testament prophecies be any different?

You are quite correct. Daniel prayed concerning the 70 years of captivity. But Daniel wasn't looking into the future and guessing what would happen, he had the word of God through His prophet Jeremiah give a specific time frame, and Daniel, because he was able to look back into history, recognised that the time was almost up.

I will look at the rest of your query as time permits.

rodd · Feb 10, 2012

David777 said:
I love eschatology, i read all posts in all eschatology debates.

I am all for the discussion on this topic.

What I said in my post related to naming the specific AntiChrist.

Or should I say "man of lawlessness".

I will give you some examples,

come out of your cave! the Antichrist is in power and he is the pope!

As President of France Sarkozy... Anyhow he's my prime suspect,...he ticks all the boxes.

That's why he's often referred to as the Syrian, but this is an alias or by-name, he conquers Syria as he did the others.

and old pope Benedict XVI might just be the last antichrist.

The man of lawlessness is a tremendous person in eschatology.
He controls the entire world, unrivaled power, never seen before
in human history. Almost invisible to all and sundry as he wields the
strings of power over the earth.

Like I said before, there would need to be a truckload of evidence
to support a claim of that magnitude.

I repeat I have no problem with different positions in eschatology.

Good on you David, join in!

First of all it's obvious through scripture he (the antichrist) doesn't all of a sudden come onto the scene like Darth Vadar, he decieves the world leads nations and changes things like money.

He is a diplomat, he flatters and decieves, the kings of the earth take his side, he divides up territory and rescource weath and gives it to his supporters, the bible says this is what he does, so I say, look for a politician that could find himself in control of multiple nations, a la Sarkozy.
Also needs to be a potential false Messiah figure to the Jews, cause Sarko's a Jew I'd say at this point in time, he ticks that box, wouldn't you??
Because we saw the re-establishment of the nation of Israel, and we know that the generation is 70yrs, we must be on the verge of the last 7yrs of tribulation as described in Revelation. The times, time and half a time X 2=7yr trib.
Jesus said they that see these things, the re-emergence of Israel, their generation would not pass till all things were finished, that's our generation! Matt24:33-34.
If you do the maths, you know we're right there now on the verge of the last seven years of tribulation.
The trib begins with the peace treaty of 7yrs by the Antichrist, and should I'm confident of, will happen this year.
The one who mediates the peace treaty between Jew and Palestinian is the Antichrist. Daniel 9:27, the covenant is the peace treaty of seven yrs, this is the same 7yrs spoken of in the book of revelation.

Brakelight, you carn't be serious!!! I agree with (g) who wouldn't??...
but for the rest a big fat 'x'.
With that lot you sure know how to put the brakes on escatology.....don't you!!

Rodd.

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