Mid-tribulation

[lecoop]

i am going to save this post you dont believe in gods word at all every thing that you read was out of the bible and you just said the word of god was wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kevin! Kevin! Kevin! Don't get so excited! We are both brothers in the Lord! I have NEVER said that the word of God was wrong. I have said that your understanding of it is wrong.

Now, find ONE verse we disagree on, and let's discuss it. OK? That way we can keep the posts shorter, and pinpoint our disagreements. Perhaps that way we can find a point of agreement.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

What is the "MIDPOINT?
WHY do we believe in a "midpoint?

Dan. 9
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-22016">27</sup>And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

If we look up the word midst, what will we find?

It is the Hebrew word, "Chetsiy," strongs # 2677

Notice a few verses that include this word and see how they are translated:

Exd 24:6 And Moses 4872 took 3947 half2677 of the blood 1818, and put 7760 [it] in basons 101; and half2677 of the blood 1818 he sprinkled 2236 on the altar 4196.

Exd 25:10 And they shall make 6213 an ark 727 [of] shittim 7848 wood 6086: two cubits 520 and a half2677 [shall be] the length 753 thereof, and a cubit 520 and a half2677 the breadth 7341 thereof, and a cubit 520 and a half2677 the height 6967 thereof.

Exd 25:17 And thou shalt make 6213 a mercy seat 3727 [of] pure 2889 gold 2091: two cubits 520 and a half2677 [shall be] the length 753 thereof, and a cubit 520 and a half2677 the breadth 7341 thereof.

Exd 25:23 Thou shalt also make 6213 a table 7979 [of] shittim 7848 wood 6086: two cubits 520 [shall be] the length 753 thereof, and a cubit 520 the breadth 7341 thereof, and a cubit 520 and a half2677 the height 6967 thereof.

Exd 26:12 And the remnant 5629 that remaineth 5736 of the curtains 3407 of the tent 168, the half2677 curtain 3407 that remaineth 5736 , shall hang 5628 over the backside 268 of the tabernacle 4908.

Exd 26:16 Ten 6235 cubits 520 [shall be] the length 753 of a board 7175, and a cubit 520 and a half2677 [shall be] the breadth 7341 of one 259 board 7175.

In each case, it is translated as "half." And this was only a small portion: there are MANY more.

This is one good reason why the abomination splits the week into two EQUAL halves: 1260 days on each side.

Therefore, IS IT POSSIBLE that the verse with 1290 days is speaking of an event 30 days AFTER the 1260 are finished, and NOT moving the abomination back 30 days? OF course it is possible, and since this word means half, it seems FAR MORE likely that the abomination will be exactly in the middle.

Coop

 

[Eric E Stahl]

It may appear that is what Daniel says, but it really isn't. God is FAR better than we are at math. If I divide 2520 days (the full 70th week) into two halves, I get 1260 days on each side. And that is exactly what John shows us five different times.

The angel had just confirmed to Daniel in verse 12:7 that to the end of "these wonders" would be time, times, and half of time - exactly the same time John tells us five different times.

Therefore, I am convinced Daniel is telling us that the 1290 day count is NOT to the "end of these wonders" but to SOME OTHER event.

You see, I cannot put MORE WEIGHT on one verse than I can on 7 other verses that all give us 3 1/2 years in three different ways.

Verse 12 is another hint that Daniel is thinking of another event AFTER the end of the week. What do you make of the 1335 days? The way this is written, "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days," tells me John is counting from the exact midpoint, the 1260<-*->1260 point, PAST the end at 1260 days, and on another 75 days to some event.

This seems a VERY GOOD hint that we should do the same with the 1290 days. However, this is really a minor point. I don't plan on being around here then.

Coop

Now you are getting close to understanding.

I believe the extra 75 days take us to the completion of the judgment of the sheep and the goats discussed in Matthew 25:31-46. The righteous sheep will go into the kingdom of Jesus alive.

As the 75 days are after the 1260 days of the great tribulation, the 30 days are before the great tribulation.

 

[rodd]

Rev 113),4---These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the GOD of the earth.
And**** ---Rev.1:20----the mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand , and the seven golden candlesticks.
The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Note that there were two churches Christ found no fault with out of the seven mentioned in Rev.(Church of Smyrna} Rev.2:8-11,
(Chruch of Philadelphia) Rev.3:7-13! The teachings of those two are the ones that gain his favor.
the two candlesticks (Church of Smyrna} (Chruch of Philadelphia)

the two olive trees Enoch and Elijah i think this because thay never tasted death or the grave. just saying!
This is also proof that the church is not raptured before the tribulation period and will be here until after the mid tribulation period.

The point of the 3.5year periods of the tribulation in Revelation is that the church is translated just prior to the 3.5 year period of wrath, in other words mid 7yrs, in the seven year trib.
Gods wrath comes in the last 3.5 years.

The phases of the 4 horsemen are the deceptive acts of antichrist and Occult elite that bring about the scenario for the beginning of the
Tribulation first 3.5years.
In that time Antichrist will consolidate his power and oppressive rule.
Christian will be persecuted even to death Rev 13:5+7.

Enoch and Elijah are witnesses to Israel in the final 3.5years, the church is already translated into heaven, that's why there's two groups in Rev Chapter 7, the Gentile church already in heaven, and still on earth the saved 144,000 group from the tribes of Israel.
They go through the last 3.5yrs, and meet up in heaven with the raptured Church. If you read chpt 7, you'll seethis clearly.

Hence the Christian Church only makes it to the mid point of the final 7yr tribulation before thay meet the Lord in the air.
That must happen according to scripture, but the Jewish group go through the full 7 years.
Pretty sure the two prophets evangelise Israel at that time, hence the 144,000 that are saved.

Rodd.

 

[David777]

Hello Rodd.

I am not in disagreement with what you said.

Just wondering how you arrived at the following.

Enoch and Elijah are witnesses to Israel in the final 3.5years

The two olive trees, two witnesses have always been

Judah and Israel (Ephraim).

Paul says in Romans 11

16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy,
so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you,
being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a
partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the
branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root,
but the root supports you.

Judah and Israel are the two witnesses mentioned in Isaiah 43,44.

Israel was scattered amongst the surrounding nations, Judah was not.

We gentiles are linked with the tribes that were scattered.

1 Corinthians 10

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers
were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into
Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food,
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink.

See the link which Paul makes with the gentile Corinthians.
Our fathers. Paul was one bright fellow.

The reason the two witnesses are referred to as olive trees
is simply the cultivated and wild olive trees. This is God's
promise to Judah and Israel. God always fulfills his promises.

We have only been grafted in, we do not exist on our own as an olive tree.

So who were the two witnesses?

 

[David777]

Hmmmmm.

The water is deep when one uses scripture to interpret scripture.

Two witnesses, olive trees, this is the Old Testament revealed in the New Testament as usual. Nothing new under the sun.

Think about it. It is not in the book of Revelations for no reason at all.

Many have never understood the two witnesses.

Well this may slow some down a touch.

Who are the two witnesses?

 

[lecoop]

Now you are getting close to understanding.

I believe the extra 75 days take us to the completion of the judgment of the sheep and the goats discussed in Matthew 25:31-46. The righteous sheep will go into the kingdom of Jesus alive.

As the 75 days are after the 1260 days of the great tribulation, the 30 days are before the great tribulation.

Why would you do one thing with the 30 days and a different thing with the 75 days? Is that consistent? Both verses are very similar.

And WHAT will you do with the verse that tells us the abomination is what divides the week into two halves? Do you think 30 days one way or the other can still be "close enough for God work?"

Do you feel that 1230 days on one side and 1290 on the other side is close enough to be called "half?"

I don't think so. Expecially when there is another VERY GOOD explanation.

From John Gill commentary:
there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days;
from the beginning of the reign of antichrist to the end of it are one thousand two hundred and sixty days or years, or forty two months, which is the same, according to (Revelation 13:5) , here thirty days or years are added, which begin where the other end, and is the time allotted for the conversion of the Jews, and other things, making way for the kingdom of Christ; and which the reign of antichrist was an hinderance of, but should now immediately take place.


Coop

 

[lecoop]

The point of the 3.5year periods of the tribulation in Revelation is that the church is translated just prior to the 3.5 year period of wrath, in other words mid 7yrs, in the seven year trib.
Gods wrath comes in the last 3.5 years.

The phases of the 4 horsemen are the deceptive acts of antichrist and Occult elite that bring about the scenario for the beginning of the
Tribulation first 3.5years.
In that time Antichrist will consolidate his power and oppressive rule.
Christian will be persecuted even to death Rev 13:5+7.

Enoch and Elijah are witnesses to Israel in the final 3.5years, the church is already translated into heaven, that's why there's two groups in Rev Chapter 7, the Gentile church already in heaven, and still on earth the saved 144,000 group from the tribes of Israel.
They go through the last 3.5yrs, and meet up in heaven with the raptured Church. If you read chpt 7, you'll seethis clearly.

Hence the Christian Church only makes it to the mid point of the final 7yr tribulation before thay meet the Lord in the air.
That must happen according to scripture, but the Jewish group go through the full 7 years.
Pretty sure the two prophets evangelise Israel at that time, hence the 144,000 that are saved.

Rodd.

Rodd, please show us scripture on how you arrive at a mid trib rapture.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

I am not in disagreement with what you said.

Just wondering how you arrived at the following.

Enoch and Elijah are witnesses to Israel in the final 3.5years

The two olive trees, two witnesses have always been

Judah and Israel (Ephraim).

Paul says in Romans 11

16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy,
so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you,
being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a
partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the
branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root,
but the root supports you.

Judah and Israel are the two witnesses mentioned in Isaiah 43,44.

Israel was scattered amongst the surrounding nations, Judah was not.

We gentiles are linked with the tribes that were scattered.

1 Corinthians 10

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers
were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into
Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food,
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink.

See the link which Paul makes with the gentile Corinthians.
Our fathers. Paul was one bright fellow.

The reason the two witnesses are referred to as olive trees
is simply the cultivated and wild olive trees. This is God's
promise to Judah and Israel. God always fulfills his promises.

We have only been grafted in, we do not exist on our own as an olive tree.

So who were the two witnesses?

I think God has the freedom to make TWO MEN two "olive trees," perhaps to represent Judah and Israel, if you please. The entire description is that of two men, NOT two nations! Will the Beast murder BOTH Judah and Israel? With all of both nations lay dead? I don't think so! This description is of two men.

Coop

 

[rodd]

Rodd, please show us scripture on how you arrive at a mid trib rapture.

Coop

Two phases of the second coming, to make plain sense of scripture,

1] as the theif in the night.

2] as the lightening flashes from the east to the west.

Both scripture, both truths, scripture carn't contradict, so obviously we've got a problem because both carn't be the truth if it's the same event.

Hence scripture is truth as we know, so, obviously, we must be looking at two separate events.
A time of coming for the church and a time of coming to the world.

Jude 14, He's coming with his Holy ones to convict the ungodly.
Be careful not to include your presupposition that believers must be on earth among the ungodly, its not saying that, that would be a presupposition on your part.

Also in Revelation doesn't the flying eagle utter, woe,woe, to all who dwell upon the face of the earth because of Gods wrath and judgements coming upon them?
If we the church were still on planet earth then that would include us to!!!......thought faith in Christ saved us from Gods wrath!!..... if that's true, which it is, there's no way we're on planet Earth at that time, pretty basic really!!

Again, if we were still here during the wrath judgements scripture would contradict, and all of Gods mercy and love claims would be false.
So to believe the tribulationalist view is to condradict the promises of Christ.

Rodd.

 

[Brother Mike]

Wow!!

Rodd:

Enoch and Elijah are witnesses to Israel in the final 3.5years,

Wow, when I first got saved or a year into it, I did a Massive bible study to find out who those two witness are in Rev 11.

A few months of looking and no results.

Now I come here, and BAM there it is, on these forums. Enoch and Elijah.
Could you please share the scripture with me that reveals this? I have hunted and can't find it.

Thank you.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Why would you do one thing with the 30 days and a different thing with the 75 days? Is that consistent? Both verses are very similar.

And WHAT will you do with the verse that tells us the abomination is what divides the week into two halves? Do you think 30 days one way or the other can still be "close enough for God work?"

Do you feel that 1230 days on one side and 1290 on the other side is close enough to be called "half?"

I don't think so. Expecially when there is another VERY GOOD explanation.

From John Gill commentary:
there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days;
from the beginning of the reign of antichrist to the end of it are one thousand two hundred and sixty days or years, or forty two months, which is the same, according to (Revelation 13:5) , here thirty days or years are added, which begin where the other end, and is the time allotted for the conversion of the Jews, and other things, making way for the kingdom of Christ; and which the reign of antichrist was an hinderance of, but should now immediately take place.


Coop

Daniel 12:11 seems to indicate there are 1290 days to an end.

Daniel 12:12 seems to indicate 335 days to a beginning.

 

[David777]

Hey lecoop.

Hello Lecoop, nice to receive a reply from you.

This is what you said,

"I think God has the freedom to make TWO MEN two "olive trees,"
perhaps to represent Judah and Israel, if you please. The entire description is
that of two men, NOT two nations! Will the Beast murder BOTH Judah and Israel?
With all of both nations lay dead? I don't think so! This description is of two men."

I never said that the two witnesses were two nations.

Only that they represent two states within Israel as a whole.

They are obviously two persons, but it is strongly suggested that they
represent the two olive trees of God's design.

They are the final witness of God to humanity, the are real people!

But they are also olive trees dressed in sackcloth.

Sorry, my fault if I was not clear enough in my explanation.

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Rodd:



Wow, when I first got saved or a year into it, I did a Massive bible study to find out who those two witness are in Rev 11.

A few months of looking and no results.

Now I come here, and BAM there it is, on these forums. Enoch and Elijah.
Could you please share the scripture with me that reveals this? I have hunted and can't find it.

Thank you.

Jesus Is Lord.

Malachi 4:5 says Elijah will be sent before the great and dreadful day of the Lord. Enoch is the only other person to not die so I also believe he will be a witness.

 

[kevinlb63]

Kevin! Kevin! Kevin! Don't get so excited! We are both brothers in the Lord! I have NEVER said that the word of God was wrong. I have said that your understanding of it is wrong.

Now, find ONE verse we disagree on, and let's discuss it. OK? That way we can keep the posts shorter, and pinpoint our disagreements. Perhaps that way we can find a point of agreement.

Coop

my understanding is very good i posted the words right out of the bible 1 thessilonians and second thessilonians and matthew and showed you where the words {after} the tribulation is at and it is before christ comes back just read below it is not my words so how can i be wrong or not understand. if you dont understand what the word after means then i cant help you! and by the way the time line of the revelation started 2000 years ago!

MATTHEW 24:29 Immediately { after} the(( tribulation)) of those days shall the sun be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven,
and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken And{ then} shall appear the sign of the {Son of man in heaven}:
and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory
MARK 13:24 But in those days, {after} the tribulation, the sun shall be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the {{Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory}}.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds,
from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven

I THESSALONIANS 3:4 For {{verily}}, when we were {{with you}},
we told you before!! that {{we should suffer tribulation!!}};

I thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,
that we {which are alive and remain} unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are {asleep}.
:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,
and with the {{trump of God}} and the dead in Christ shall rise {first}: the trump of god is the 7th and last.
:17 Then we which are {{alive and remain}} shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

note the trump of god is the 7th and last trump in the booh of REv:
II THESSALONIANS 2:[3] Let no{{ man}} deceive you by any means:
for that day shall {{{not come}},
except there come a falling away first,
and that {{{man of sin be revealed}},
the {{{son of perdition}}};
[4] Who {opposeth} and {exalteth} himself above all that is called {God},
or that is worshipped; so that he {as God}
{sitteth in the temple of God}
{shewing himself that he is{ God}.

 

[kevinlb63]

Rodd:



Wow, when I first got saved or a year into it, I did a Massive bible study to find out who those two witness are in Rev 11.

A few months of looking and no results.

Now I come here, and BAM there it is, on these forums. Enoch and Elijah.
Could you please share the scripture with me that reveals this? I have hunted and can't find it.

Thank you.

Jesus Is Lord.

i came up with it by studying and Enoch and Elijah are the only ones that have not tasted death and god said every man will tast death once! just saying

 

[Brother Mike]

Two wittness.

Eric E Stahl

Malachi 4:5 says Elijah will be sent before the great and dreadful day of the Lord. Enoch is the only other person to not die so I also believe he will be a witness.

Thank you Eric, certainly sounds good.

kevinlb63

i came up with it by studying and Enoch and Elijah are the only ones that have not tasted death and god said every man will tast death once! just saying

When I teach the Word Kevin, I do my best to be extremely exact, not saying things I can't back up with scripture. I can't just add, or make vague comparisons. I need it laid out clearly. Even in that, I still mess it up at times. Be blessed.

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

John the Baptist.
Luk 1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
Luk 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.


Well, as Luke stated John was in the spirit and power of Elijah to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children. He did come before the great and dreadful day of the Lord, just like the scripture says.

Certainly Enoch and Elijah Make sense, both being taken, both did not see death. Just need that scripture stating Elijah came again, and dragged Enoch with him. That seems to be missing.

I look at scripture very literal, and I don't add anything. It annoys some, but I can't say something that is not actually there on guess work.

If it's red, Shiny, mostly round, can be eaten, and it FELL by a tree, That does not make it an apple.

Thank you Eric for taking the time to answer my question.
Your blessed.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[lecoop]

Two phases of the second coming, to make plain sense of scripture,

1] as the theif in the night.

2] as the lightening flashes from the east to the west.

Both scripture, both truths, scripture carn't contradict, so obviously we've got a problem because both carn't be the truth if it's the same event.

Hence scripture is truth as we know, so, obviously, we must be looking at two separate events.
A time of coming for the church and a time of coming to the world.

Jude 14, He's coming with his Holy ones to convict the ungodly.
Be careful not to include your presupposition that believers must be on earth among the ungodly, its not saying that, that would be a presupposition on your part.

Also in Revelation doesn't the flying eagle utter, woe,woe, to all who dwell upon the face of the earth because of Gods wrath and judgements coming upon them?
If we the church were still on planet earth then that would include us to!!!......thought faith in Christ saved us from Gods wrath!!..... if that's true, which it is, there's no way we're on planet Earth at that time, pretty basic really!!

Again, if we were still here during the wrath judgements scripture would contradict, and all of Gods mercy and love claims would be false.
So to believe the tribulationalist view is to condradict the promises of Christ.

Rodd.

Very good, Rodd, as far as you went. MOST CERTAINLY there are two comings; one FOR his Bride and the next WITH His bride. We are in total agreement.

His coming WITH His bride is shown clearly in Matthew 24 AFTER (Kevin's favorite word) the tribulation of those days, and in Rev. 19, on the white horse.

His coming FOR His bride is shown in 1 and 2 thes, and in Rev. 7.

Rev. 7: John saw a HUGE group, too large to number, around the throne in heaven. EVERYTHING about this group sounds like the raptured church - that is all but two words. John is told that this HUGE group comes "out of great tribulation."

Just about 100% of people, when they read these words associate them with the days Jesus spoke of that come right after the abomination; and indeed, Jesus did use "great tribulation." But for Jesus, those two words WERE NOT ENOUGH: He went on to say that no time very before or after would be as terrible as those days of great tribulation following the abomination.

HOWEVER: in Rev. 7, John has not even started the 70th week, much less got to the days of GT. Therefore, John is CERTAINLY not telling us these this huge group, too large to number, saw the Beast, were killed by the beast, or was even IN "those days" of GT that Jesus spoke of. Indeed, those days won't come for another 3 1/2 years. This group is seen in heaven BEFORE (opposite of after) the 70th week or "trib" actually starts. So HOW could these people have come out of Jesus' days of GT?

Indeed, they COULD NOT! No, all John is telling us is that at the time of the rapture, people will be dying for their testimony around the world. How can "tribulation" become any greater that one being killed because they love Jesus? They cannot be killed twice! So John is NOT talking about the same GT that Jesus was talking about. At the time of the rapture will be NO WHERE NEAR as terrible as the days following the abomination, for at that time Satan will be cast down with GREAT hatred and anger, and WOE to those on the earth.

Therefore, with a clear understanding of John's chronology, we see a CLEAR picture of a PRETRIB rapture.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Hello Lecoop, nice to receive a reply from you.

This is what you said,

"I think God has the freedom to make TWO MEN two "olive trees,"
perhaps to represent Judah and Israel, if you please. The entire description is
that of two men, NOT two nations! Will the Beast murder BOTH Judah and Israel?
With all of both nations lay dead? I don't think so! This description is of two men."

I never said that the two witnesses were two nations.

Only that they represent two states within Israel as a whole.

They are obviously two persons, but it is strongly suggested that they
represent the two olive trees of God's design.

They are the final witness of God to humanity, the are real people!

But they are also olive trees dressed in sackcloth.

Sorry, my fault if I was not clear enough in my explanation.

Ah! Very good! I understand now. We agree, two real people. And I am sure they really tick off the Beast and his followers. They are SO HAPPY when they see these two laying dead.

Their happiness is short lived! VERY SOON after Jesus will come with BRIGHTNESS and the parable of the tares will take place. The lawless will be taken!

Coop

 

[lecoop]

my understanding is very good i posted the words right out of the bible 1 thessilonians and second thessilonians and matthew and showed you where the words {after} the tribulation is at and it is before christ comes back just read below it is not my words so how can i be wrong or not understand. if you dont understand what the word after means then i cant help you! and by the way the time line of the revelation started 2000 years ago!

1 thes. 3:4 3:4 For {{verily}}, when we were {{with you}},
we told you before!! that {{we should suffer tribulation!!}};

OK, Kevin, I BELIEVE that. But what does it MEAN? Does it mean the church will go through "those days" of "great tribulation" spoken of my Jesus? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Note this verse carefully:

Matthew 13:21
Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Here Jesus is telling us that the seed thrown in stony ground. Kevin,this is referring to a STONY HEART. A HARD heart. A heart that holds rebellion against God. (think if the Pharaoh with Moses.) He has a very hard heart against God. So Jesus says that when TRIBULATION comes he is offended. Jesus likes TRIBULATION with PERSECUTION.
Have you heard of the pastor being held by Muslims with a death sentence because He will NOT deny Jesus? He is in "tribulation!" He is being persecuted.

But this in NO WAY is saying we must go through those days of GREAT TRIBULATION that will follow the abomination. That is just your theory.
It is NOT scripture.

MATTHEW 24:29 Immediately { after} the(( tribulation)) of those days shall the sun be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven,
and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken And{ then} shall appear the sign of the {Son of man in heaven}:
and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory
MARK 13:24 But in those days, {after} the tribulation, the sun shall be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the {{Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory}}.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds,
from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven

I am not sure why you posted these verses. OF COURSE Jesus comes AFTER the TRIBULATION, as shown in Rev. 19 on the white horse.
But these verses do not PREVENT His coming BEFORE as shown in 1 thes. 4:17 and the results shown in Rev. 7.

I THESSALONIANS 3:4 For {{verily}}, when we were {{with you}},
we told you before!! that {{we should suffer tribulation!!}};

Remember Paul's thorn, a DEVIL sent to BUFFET Him, blow after blow, to STOP HIM FROM PREACHING. It was PERSECUTION. EVERYWHERE it seemed Paul went, this devil sent to buffet him stirred up the people to persecute him. It seems He was almost always IN TRIBULATION.
But Kevin, be honest: does this verse even hint that we as His body must go through "those days" of "great tribulation" spoken of by JEsus? NO NO NO a thousand times NO. Kevin, there is a HUGE difference between every day persecution and those days of GT. Always remember, SATAN is cast down from the heavenlies VERY ANGRY for he knows his time is short! He takes out his anger on ANY who believe in God or in Jesus. That is why Jesus said "those days" would be WORSE than any days before or after. Kevin, we have NO APPOINTMENT with those days! We will be IN HEAVEN, if we are a part of the bride.

I thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,
that we {which are alive and remain} unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are {asleep}.
:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,
and with the {{trump of God}} and the dead in Christ shall rise {first}: the trump of god is the 7th and last.
:17 Then we which are {{alive and remain}} shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

note the trump of god is the 7th and last trump in the booh of REv:

ABSOLUTELY NOT! You are MISTAKEN! There is absolutely NO scriptural connection between these two trumps. Any connection comes ONLY from the wild imaginations of man, NOT from God.

Paul's "last trump" is without a doubt referring to the FINAL trumpet blast blown at the feast of trumpets. In Paul's letter it is "the trump of God. I believe JESUS Himself will blow that trumpet. (It is HIS trump!)

The 7th trumpet in Revelation is blown by an angel. THERE IS NO GATHERING at this trumpet. There is NO rapture at this trump. That is only human imagination. This trump is NOT Paul's trump.

II THESSALONIANS 2:[3] Let no{{ man}} deceive you by any means:
for that day shall {{{not come}},

WHAT day? Paul says "the day of the Lord" or the "day of Christ." Since Christ is Lord, then SAME day. We see the first HINT of that in Revelation chapter 6, the "DAY OF HIS WRATH." That is John telling us the Day of the Lord will start IMMEDIATELY. It starts with the 7th seal.

except there come a falling away first,

Except there come THE Apostasia first.

Kevin, DON"T TAKE THE KJV here as gospel truth. Some of the first translations into English translated this as THE DEPARTURE." Please note, in the Greek, it is not just any apostasia, it is a SPECIAL one, THE apostasia.

So what did Paul mean? What was his intended meaning when He wrote? If you get the entire CONTEXT there can be only ONE meaning: the "departing" of the church. This is the ONLY meaning that satisfies Paul's THEME, the "gathering."

and that {{{man of sin be revealed}},
the {{{son of perdition}}};
[4] Who {opposeth} and {exalteth} himself above all that is called {God},
or that is worshipped; so that he {as God}
{sitteth in the temple of God}
{shewing himself that he is{ God}.

So what was Paul's intent?

Let no man deceive you in any way, for that day, the DAY OF THE LORD, [NOT the rapture] CANNOT come, except the DEPARTURE come first, the rapture of the church, the restrainer being "taken out of the way," for then and ONLY then will the man of sin be revealed.
(coop's expanded version.)

So, Kevin, it is still as I said. Our differences is in how we UNDERSTAND these scriptures. We can't just pull a verse out of context. One can make the bible say anything. We just determine what the intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit was. NO verse of scripture can stand alone" it MUST fit with every other word of God.

So where do we go from here? Have you done an intense study on the word apostasia? Have you looked up both parts of this compound word? Could it in ANY WAY be a "departing?" Well, VERY smart men that translated the entire bible from Greek into English thought so.

Have you done a word study on "tribulation?"

Coop