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Non-OSAS belief - undermines the cross

Back to John 15, I criticized you for thumping on John 15:1-8 not because I deny Yeshua's teaching, but you failed to get the message.

Whose message Jonath? Yours, I can also say you are pumping your belief on these scriptures. I believe you are brother.

Yes, we ought to abide in Him, but tell me, how can we abide in Him when He was arrested and tried like a criminal and crucified with two criminals? How can we abide in Him when He's ascended into heaven and no longer with us? That's where the Holy Spirit comes in. The Holy Spirit empowers us and guides us till he returns. The Holy Spirit is seven fold, running in the seven churches (Rev. 4:5, 1:20). That doesn't have to be a physical building or a particular denomination,

No, not we ought to abide in Him, we must abide in Him!

How do we abide in Him? Spiritually through prayer and supplication, through giving our all to Him, through Faith.

I've never suggested or implied that, but it MUST be a gathering, for

"When two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them."

And,

"And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching."

Therefore, abiding in the vine is abiding in the group, the LOCAL body of Christ. This is NOT talking about salvation.

The ekklesia is the body of Christ, the Bride of Christ, the body of born again from above believers worldwide, who abide in Him, regardless of age, sex, colour, tongue, jew or gentile.

They can be large or small groups from two or three born again souls upwards, they can be in Jerusalem, Judia, Sameria, or any country, city, town, village, in a purpose made building, a house, barn, field or park bench, anywhere.

There never was, church buildings, as they are called in the early church.
There is not one word in scripture that refers to a place of worship as a church.
The word 'kuriakkon' was used by the RCC for a building to be called a church, we will not find that word anywhere in scripture
There is only one word for 'church' in the scripture, it is ekkleia <G1577> it is the Lord's, Jesus is the Head of His ekklesia, we who are born again from above and abide in Him are His Bride in waiting.

Abiding in the Vine, is therefore, abiding in Jesus, in fellowship with other born again who are also abi9ding in Him, one body, many members around the world, one Head Jesus the Christ, our Lord and Saviour.

Shalom
 
If you really have faith in salvation, you wouldn't deny OSAS. Yes, OSAS is not in the bible, neither is "trinity", "substitutionary atonement", " second coming" or the word "bible" itself, that doesn't prove they are wrong.

OSAS is NOT in the scriptures Jonathan.
 
@KingJ --- @Jonathan_Gale --- and ALL

Sorry for the delay in replying, yesterday was not a good day for me.
Back to the discussion.....

“Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away” (John 15:2).
Christ was not here addressing a mixed audience
, in which were true believers and those who were not.

Nor was He speaking to the twelve—Judas had already gone out!
Had Judas been present when Christ spoke these words there might be reason to suppose that He had him in mind. But what the Lord here said was addressed to the eleven, that is, to believers only!

This is the first key to its significance.
He is talking to genuine believers, instructing, admonishing and warning them.
Surely none will deny that they are believers to whom He says “Ye are the branches” (John 15:5).
observe that Christ employs the same term in this needed word in John 15:2: “Every branch in me, that beareth not fruit.”
To make it doubly clear as to whom He was referring, He added, “Every branch in me that beareth not fruit.”
Now if there is one form of expression, which, by invariable and unexceptional use, indicates a believer more emphatically and explicitly than another, it is this:—“in me,” “in him,” “in Christ.” Never are these expressions used loosely; never are they applied to any but the children of God: “If any one be in Christ (he is) a new creation” (2 Cor. 5:17).

“Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away.” If then, it is a real believer who is in view here, and if the “taketh away” does not refer to perishing, then what is the force and meaning of our Lord’s words?

First of all, notice the tense of the first verb:
“Every branch in me not bearing fruit he taketh away” is the literal translation.
It is not of a branch which never bore fruit that the Lord is here speaking, but of one who is no longer “bearing fruit.”

“He taketh away.” Who does?
The “husbandman,” the Father.
This is conclusive proof that an unregenerate sinner is not in view.

It is worth including here,
The Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son” (John 5:22).
[Listen to Jesus, all authority has been given unto Him!)
It is Christ who will say, “Depart from me” (Matthew 25).
It is Christ who shall sit upon the Great White Throne to judge the wicked (Rev. 20). Therefore it cannot be a mere unbeliever who is here in view—taken away unto judgment.
The grafted in branch, the born again person, that is not bearing fruit, is the one Jesus is talking about.

Again a difficulty has been needlessly created here by the English rendering of the Greek verb. “Airo” is frequently translated in the A.V. “lifted up.”
For example: “And they lifted up their voices” (Luke 17:13, so also in Acts 4:24).
“And Jesus lifted up his eyes” (John 11:41).
“Lifted up his hand” (Rev. 10:5), etc.
In none of these places could the verb be rendered “taken away.” Therefore, we are satisfied that it would be more accurate and more in accord with “the analogy of faith” to translate, “Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he lifteth up”—from trailing on the ground.

The care and method used by the Husbandman are told out in the words: “He purgeth it.”
He purgeth it to cleanse it, the branch is only 'cast out' when the Father can purgeth it no more.
The majority of people imagine that “purgeth” here is the equivalent of “pruning,” and understand the reference is to affliction, chastisement, and painful discipline. But the word “purgeth” here does not mean “pruning,” it would be better rendered, “cleanseth,” as it is in the very next verse. It may strike some of us as rather incongruous to speak of cleansing a branch of a vine. It would not be so if we were familiar with the Palestinian vineyards. The reference is to the washing off of the deposits of insects, of moss, and other parasites which infest the plant.
Now the “water” which the Husbandman uses in cleansing the branches is the Word, as John 15:3 tells us. The thought, then, is the removal by the Word of what would obstruct the flow of the life and fatness of the vine through the branches.

“Abide in me,” “To be” in Christ and “to abide” in Him are two different things which must not be confounded.
One must first be “in him” before he can “abide in him.”

The former respects a union effected by the creating-power of God, and which can neither be dissolved nor suspended. Believers are never exhorted to be “in Christ”—they are in Him by new creation (2 Cor. 5:17; Ephesians 2:10). But Christians are frequently exhorted to abide in Christ, because this privilege and experience may be interrupted. “To ‘abide,’ ‘continue,’ ‘dwell,’ ‘remain’ in Christ—by all these terms is this one word translated—has always reference to the 'maintenance of fellowship' with God in Christ. The word ‘abide’ calls us to vigilance, lest at any time the experimental realization of our union with Christ should be interrupted.

To abide in Him, then, is to have sustained conscious communion with Him” (Mr. Campbell).
To abide in Christ signifies the constant occupation of the heart with Him—a daily active faith in Him which, so to speak, maintains the dependency of the branch upon the vine, and the circulation of life and fatness of the vine in the branch.

What we have here is parallel with that other figurative expression used by our Lord in John 6:56: He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth (abideth) in me, and I in him.” This is but another way of insisting upon the continuous exercise of faith in a crucified and living Savior, deriving life and the sustenance of life from Him.
As the initial act of believing in Him is described as “coming” to Him, (“He that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst”: John 6:35), so the continued activity of faith is described as “abiding in him.”

“Abide in me, and I in you” (John 15:4).
The two things are quite distinct, though closely connected. Just as it is one thing to be “in Christ,” and another to “abide in him,” so there is a real difference between His being in us, and His abiding in us.

- The one is a matter of His grace;
- the other of our responsibility
.
The one is perpetual, the other may be interrupted. By our abiding in Him is meant the happy conscious fellowship of our union with Him, in the discernment of what He is for us; so by His abiding in us is meant the happy conscious recognition of His presence, the assurance of His goodness, grace and power—Himself the recourse of our soul everything.

“As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abides in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me (John 15:4).“
Thus our Lord enforces the necessity of maintaining fellowship.
He is not only the source of all fruit, but He also puts forth His power while there is personal appropriation of what He is for us, and in us. And this, if we receive it, will lead us to a right judgment of ourselves and our service. In the eyes of our own brethren, and in our own esteem, we may maintain a goodly appearance as fruit bearing branches. But whatever our own judgment or that of others, unless the apparent springs from ‘innermost fellowship and communion’ the true Vine will never own it as His fruit.

“Moreover, all this may, by His blessing, bring us to see the cause of our imperfect or sparse fruit bearing.

“I am the vine, ye are the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit” (John 15:5). This is very blessed, coming in just here. It is a word of assurance. As we contemplate the failure of Israel as God’s vine of old, and as we review our own past resolutions and attempts, we are discouraged and despondent. This is met by the announcement, I am the vine, ye are the branches.” It is not a question of your sufficiency; yea, let your insufficiency be admitted, as settled once for all. In yourself you are no better than a branch severed from the vine-dry, dead.
But “he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit.” “No figure could more forcibly express the complete dependence of the believer on Christ for all fruit-bearing than this.

- A branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine.
- In itself it has no resources though in union with vine it is provided with life.

This is precisely the believer’s condition: ‘Christ liveth in me.’ The branch bears the clusters, but it does not produce them.
It bears what the vine produces; and so the result is expressed by the Apostle, ‘to me to live is Christ.’
It is important that in this respect, as well as with reference to righteousness before God, we should be brought to the end of self with all its vain efforts and strivings. And then there comes to us the assurance of unfailing resources in Another” (“Waymarks in the Wilderness”).

“For without me (better ‘severed from me’) ye can do nothing” (John 15:5).
Clearly this refers not to the vital union existing between Christ and the believer, which shall never be broken, either by his own volition or the will of God, through all eternity (Rom. 8:38–39); but to the interruption of fellowship and dependency upon Him, mentioned in the immediate context. This searching word is introduced here to enforce our need of heeding what had just been said in the previous verse and repeated at the beginning of this.

“Severed from me ye can do nothing.”
There are many who believe this in a general way, but who fail to apply it in detail. They know that they cannot do the important things without Christ’s aid, but how many of the little things we attempt in our own strength! No wonder we fail so often.

“Without me ye can do nothing”.
Nothing that is spiritually good; no, not any thing at all, be it little or great, easy or difficult to be performed; cannot think a good thought, speak a good word, or do a good action; can neither begin one, nor when it is begun, perfect it” (Dr. John Gill). But mark it well, the Lord did not say, “Without you I can do nothing.” In gathering out His elect, and in building up His Church, He employs human instrumentality; but that is not a matter of necessity, but of choice, with Him; He could “do” without them, just as well as with them.


“Severed from me ye can do nothing.” Urgently do we need this warning. Not only will the allowance of any known sin break our fellowship with Him, but concentration on any thing but Himself will also surely do it. Satan is very subtle. If only he can get us occupied with ourselves, our fruit-bearing, or our fruit, his purpose is accomplished.

Faith is nothing apart from its object, and is no longer in operation when it becomes occupied with itself.
Love, too, is in exercise only while it is occupied with its beloved.

“There is a disastrous delusion in this matter when, under the plea of witnessing for Christ and relating their experience, men are tempted to parade their own attainments: their love, joy and peace, their zeal in service, their victory in conflict.

“If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast into the fire, and they are burned” (John 15:6). This is another verse which has been much misunderstood, and it is really surprising to discover how many able commentators have entirely missed its meaning. With scarcely an exception, Calvinistic expositors suppose that Christ here referred to a different class from what had been before Him in the three previous verses.

Attention is called to the fact that Christ did not say, “If a branch abide not in me he is cast forth,” but “If a man abide not in me.”
But really this is inexcusable in those who are able, in any measure, to consult the Greek.
The word “man” is not found in the original at all! Literally rendered it is, “unless any one abide in me he is cast out as the branch” (Bagster’s Interlinear).

The simple and obvious meaning of these words of Christ is this: If any one of the branches, any believer, continues out of fellowship with Me, he is “cast forth.”

The “casting forth” is done by the Husbandman,
and evidently had in view the stripping of the believer of the gifts and opportunities which he failed to improve.

It is similar to the salt “losing its savor” (Matthew 5:13).

It is parallel with Luke 8:18: “And whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.”

It is analogous to that admonition in 2 John 8: “Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward."

But what is meant by, “Men gather them, and cast into the fire, and they are burned”?

Observe, first, the plural pronouns.

It is not “men gather him and cast into the fire, and he is burned,” as it would most certainly have been had an unbeliever, in view.

The change of number here is very striking, and evidences, once more, the minute accuracy of Scripture.
“Unless any one abide in me, he is east forth as a branch, and men gather them and cast into the fire and they are burned.”

In the original it is not “men gather them,” but “they gather them.”

Light is thrown on this by Matthew 13:41, 42:
“The Son of man shall send forth his angels and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity: And shall cast them into a furnace of fire:
There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

Note the two distinct items here:
- the angels gather “all things that offend” and
- “them which do iniquity.”

In the light of John 15:6 the first of these actions will be fulfilled at the session of the judgment-seat of Christ (2 Cor. 5:10), the second when He returns to the earth.

Here then is a most solemn warning and heart-searching prospect for every Christian. Either your life and my life is, as the result of continuous fellowship with Christ, bringing forth fruit to the glory of the Father, fruit which will remain; or, because of neglect of communion with Him, we are in immense danger of being set aside as His witnesses on earth, to bring forth only that which the fire will consume in a coming Day. May the Holy Spirit apply the words of the Lord Jesus to each conscience and heart.[1]


Exposition of John's Gospel, Arthur Walkington Pink
 
No, not we ought to abide in Him, we must abide in Him!

How do we abide in Him? Spiritually through prayer and supplication, through giving our all to Him, through Faith.
Faith is invalid and powerless if you believe salvation can be lost.

Whose message Jonath? Yours, I can also say you are pumping your belief on these scriptures. I believe you are brother.
The message is the promise of the helper, which is the Holy Spirit. That’s not my belief, that’s what Yeshua promised to his disciples when the trial was imminent, when he was about to be crucified, when his disciples were about to flee in fear. That context and situation is what you failed to get.
 
Abiding in the Vine, is therefore, abiding in Jesus, in fellowship with other born again who are also abi9ding in Him, one body, many members around the world, one Head Jesus the Christ, our Lord and Saviour.
So? Isn’t that my point? Yeshua was using the vine and branches as an analogy to illustrate the importance of the church body and each individual member. You can’t abide in Him without abiding in your LOCAL called-out assembly, aka, the ekklasia. Picturing this “Many members around the world” in your head is not fellowship, physical presence is required. Again, “lone wolf Christianity” doesn’t work, that’s what “abide” is all about in John 15:1-8.
 
Of course even though no one else can take you from Jesus's hand, you are free to walk away on your own. Also, even though no one can snatch you from Jesus's hand. He Himself will will have some in His kingdom
thrown out. ( Matt 13:41; ) which of course refutes MacArthur's teaching.

One thing this thread proves... that rarely is anyone's mind ever changed on this subject. :)
So then, why have the debate at all?

I guess that'll teach me to take a few days off for Thanksgiving. I hope everyone had a great o

To let iron sharpen iron.
The iron you speak of is a sword, the sword of the Spirit. The sword, an instrument of war, not the milk of the word that give you strength. The milk is good, but to sharpen your sword, milk and the appreciation of it doesnt help that sharpness of the sword. Scripture... the milk of the kingdom, to help us grow strong, has an end purpose, to give us strength to swing that sword which likewise has to be sharp. And one of the milk drinks says, dont cast your pearls before swine. Much of what is said in today's christianity is that, ppl love to argue their faith and call it sword sharpening sword, but its not. What you are doing is throwing milk at each other and calling it an iron sword.
 
Nor was He speaking to the twelve—Judas had already gone out!
Had Judas been present when Christ spoke these words there might be reason to suppose that He had him in mind. But what the Lord here said was addressed to the eleven, that is, to believers only!
Judas might be out at the moment, but such there will always be a Judas element in the church as the tares sown among the wheats, or wolf in sheep’s clothing, otherwise he wouldn’t have given such warnings in various ways.
 
The iron you speak of is a sword, the sword of the Spirit. The sword, an instrument of war, not the milk of the word that give you strength. The milk is good, but to sharpen your sword, milk and the appreciation of it doesnt help that sharpness of the sword. Scripture... the milk of the kingdom, to help us grow strong, has an end purpose, to give us strength to swing that sword which likewise has to be sharp. And one of the milk drinks says, dont cast your pearls before swine. Much of what is said in today's christianity is that, ppl love to argue their faith and call it sword sharpening sword, but its not. What you are doing is throwing milk at each other and calling it an iron sword.
If so, then Hebrew 6:12-14 may apply - “you have come to need milk and not solid food.” Salvation is the very first step in our spiritual journey, it’s not the end goal, not a ticket to heaven, it’s the blessed ASSURANCE, not blessed insurance, as most people perceive. If you don’t even believe in that, how can you advance further?
 
@KingJ --- @Jonathan_Gale --- and ALL

Sorry for the delay in replying, yesterday was not a good day for me.
Back to the discussion.....

“Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away” (John 15:2).
Christ was not here addressing a mixed audience
, in which were true believers and those who were not.

Nor was He speaking to the twelve—Judas had already gone out!
Had Judas been present when Christ spoke these words there might be reason to suppose that He had him in mind. But what the Lord here said was addressed to the eleven, that is, to believers only!

This is the first key to its significance.
He is talking to genuine believers, instructing, admonishing and warning them.
Surely none will deny that they are believers to whom He says “Ye are the branches” (John 15:5).
observe that Christ employs the same term in this needed word in John 15:2: “Every branch in me, that beareth not fruit.”
To make it doubly clear
as to whom He was referring, He added, “Every branch in me that beareth not fruit.”
Now if there is one form of expression, which, by invariable and unexceptional use, indicates a believer more emphatically and explicitly than another, it is this:—“in me,” “in him,” “in Christ.” Never are these expressions used loosely; never are they applied to any but the children of God: “If any one be in Christ (he is) a new creation” (2 Cor. 5:17).

“Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away.” If then, it is a real believer who is in view here, and if the “taketh away” does not refer to perishing, then what is the force and meaning of our Lord’s words?

First of all, notice the tense of the first verb:
“Every branch in me not bearing fruit he taketh away” is the literal translation.
It is not of a branch which never bore fruit that the Lord is here speaking, but of one who is no longer “bearing fruit.”

“He taketh away.” Who does?
The “husbandman,” the Father.
This is conclusive proof that an unregenerate sinner is not in view.

It is worth including here,
The Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son” (John 5:22).
[Listen to Jesus, all authority has been given unto Him!)
It is Christ who will say, “Depart from me” (Matthew 25).
It is Christ who shall sit upon the Great White Throne to judge the wicked (Rev. 20).
Therefore it cannot be a mere unbeliever who is here in view—taken away unto judgment.
The grafted in branch, the born again person, that is not bearing fruit, is the one Jesus is talking about.

Again a difficulty has been needlessly created here by the English rendering of the Greek verb. “Airo” is frequently translated in the A.V. “lifted up.”
For example: “And they lifted up their voices” (Luke 17:13, so also in Acts 4:24).
“And Jesus lifted up his eyes” (John 11:41).
“Lifted up his hand” (Rev. 10:5), etc.
In none of these places could the verb be rendered “taken away.” Therefore, we are satisfied that it would be more accurate and more in accord with “the analogy of faith” to translate, “Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he lifteth up”—from trailing on the ground.

The care and method used by the Husbandman are told out in the words: “He purgeth it.”
He purgeth it to cleanse it, the branch is only 'cast out' when the Father can purgeth it no more.
The majority of people imagine that “purgeth” here is the equivalent of “pruning,” and understand the reference is to affliction, chastisement, and painful discipline. But the word “purgeth” here does not mean “pruning,” it would be better rendered, “cleanseth,” as it is in the very next verse. It may strike some of us as rather incongruous to speak of cleansing a branch of a vine. It would not be so if we were familiar with the Palestinian vineyards. The reference is to the washing off of the deposits of insects, of moss, and other parasites which infest the plant.
Now the “water” which the Husbandman uses in cleansing the branches is the Word, as John 15:3 tells us. The thought, then, is the removal by the Word of what would obstruct the flow of the life and fatness of the vine through the branches.

“Abide in me,” “To be” in Christ and “to abide” in Him are two different things which must not be confounded.
One must first be “in him” before he can “abide in him.”

The former respects a union effected by the creating-power of God, and which can neither be dissolved nor suspended. Believers are never exhorted to be “in Christ”—they are in Him by new creation (2 Cor. 5:17; Ephesians 2:10). But Christians are frequently exhorted to abide in Christ, because this privilege and experience may be interrupted. “To ‘abide,’ ‘continue,’ ‘dwell,’ ‘remain’ in Christ—by all these terms is this one word translated—has always reference to the 'maintenance of fellowship' with God in Christ. The word ‘abide’ calls us to vigilance, lest at any time the experimental realization of our union with Christ should be interrupted.

To abide in Him, then, is to have sustained conscious communion with Him” (Mr. Campbell).
To abide in Christ signifies the constant occupation of the heart with Him—a daily active faith in Him which, so to speak, maintains the dependency of the branch upon the vine, and the circulation of life and fatness of the vine in the branch.

What we have here is parallel with that other figurative expression used by our Lord in John 6:56: He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth (abideth) in me, and I in him.” This is but another way of insisting upon the continuous exercise of faith in a crucified and living Savior, deriving life and the sustenance of life from Him.
As the initial act of believing in Him is described as “coming” to Him, (“He that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst”: John 6:35), so the continued activity of faith is described as “abiding in him.”

“Abide in me, and I in you” (John 15:4).
The two things are quite distinct, though closely connected. Just as it is one thing to be “in Christ,” and another to “abide in him,” so there is a real difference between His being in us, and His abiding in us.
- The one is a matter of His grace;
- the other of our responsibility
.
The one is perpetual, the other may be interrupted. By our abiding in Him is meant the happy conscious fellowship of our union with Him, in the discernment of what He is for us; so by His abiding in us is meant the happy conscious recognition of His presence, the assurance of His goodness, grace and power—Himself the recourse of our soul everything.

“As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abides in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me (John 15:4).“
Thus our Lord enforces the necessity of maintaining fellowship.
He is not only the source of all fruit, but He also puts forth His power while there is personal appropriation of what He is for us, and in us. And this, if we receive it, will lead us to a right judgment of ourselves and our service. In the eyes of our own brethren, and in our own esteem, we may maintain a goodly appearance as fruit bearing branches. But whatever our own judgment or that of others, unless the apparent springs from ‘innermost fellowship and communion’ the true Vine will never own it as His fruit.

“Moreover, all this may, by His blessing, bring us to see the cause of our imperfect or sparse fruit bearing.

“I am the vine, ye are the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit” (John 15:5). This is very blessed, coming in just here. It is a word of assurance. As we contemplate the failure of Israel as God’s vine of old, and as we review our own past resolutions and attempts, we are discouraged and despondent. This is met by the announcement, I am the vine, ye are the branches.” It is not a question of your sufficiency; yea, let your insufficiency be admitted, as settled once for all. In yourself you are no better than a branch severed from the vine-dry, dead.
But “he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit.” “No figure could more forcibly express the complete dependence of the believer on Christ for all fruit-bearing than this.

- A branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine.
- In itself it has no resources though in union with vine it is provided with life.

This is precisely the believer’s condition: ‘Christ liveth in me.’ The branch bears the clusters, but it does not produce them.
It bears what the vine produces; and so the result is expressed by the Apostle, ‘to me to live is Christ.’
It is important that in this respect, as well as with reference to righteousness before God, we should be brought to the end of self with all its vain efforts and strivings. And then there comes to us the assurance of unfailing resources in Another” (“Waymarks in the Wilderness”).

“For without me (better ‘severed from me’) ye can do nothing” (John 15:5).
Clearly this refers not to the vital union existing between Christ and the believer, which shall never be broken, either by his own volition or the will of God, through all eternity (Rom. 8:38–39); but to the interruption of fellowship and dependency upon Him, mentioned in the immediate context. This searching word is introduced here to enforce our need of heeding what had just been said in the previous verse and repeated at the beginning of this.

“Severed from me ye can do nothing.”
There are many who believe this in a general way, but who fail to apply it in detail. They know that they cannot do the important things without Christ’s aid, but how many of the little things we attempt in our own strength! No wonder we fail so often.

“Without me ye can do nothing”.
Nothing that is spiritually good; no, not any thing at all, be it little or great, easy or difficult to be performed; cannot think a good thought, speak a good word, or do a good action; can neither begin one, nor when it is begun, perfect it” (Dr. John Gill). But mark it well, the Lord did not say, “Without you I can do nothing.” In gathering out His elect, and in building up His Church, He employs human instrumentality; but that is not a matter of necessity, but of choice, with Him; He could “do” without them, just as well as with them.


“Severed from me ye can do nothing.” Urgently do we need this warning. Not only will the allowance of any known sin break our fellowship with Him, but concentration on any thing but Himself will also surely do it. Satan is very subtle. If only he can get us occupied with ourselves, our fruit-bearing, or our fruit, his purpose is accomplished.

Faith is nothing apart from its object, and is no longer in operation when it becomes occupied with itself.
Love, too, is in exercise only while it is occupied with its beloved.

“There is a disastrous delusion in this matter when, under the plea of witnessing for Christ and relating their experience, men are tempted to parade their own attainments: their love, joy and peace, their zeal in service, their victory in conflict.

“If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast into the fire, and they are burned” (John 15:6). This is another verse which has been much misunderstood, and it is really surprising to discover how many able commentators have entirely missed its meaning. With scarcely an exception, Calvinistic expositors suppose that Christ here referred to a different class from what had been before Him in the three previous verses.

Attention is called to the fact that Christ did not say, “If a branch abide not in me he is cast forth,” but “If a man abide not in me.”
But really this is inexcusable in those who are able, in any measure, to consult the Greek.
The word “man” is not found in the original at all! Literally rendered it is, “unless any one abide in me he is cast out as the branch” (Bagster’s Interlinear).

The simple and obvious meaning of these words of Christ is this: If any one of the branches, any believer, continues out of fellowship with Me, he is “cast forth.”

The “casting forth” is done by the Husbandman,
and evidently had in view the stripping of the believer of the gifts and opportunities which he failed to improve.

It is similar to the salt “losing its savor” (Matthew 5:13).

It is parallel with Luke 8:18: “And whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.”

It is analogous to that admonition in 2 John 8: “Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward."

But what is meant by, “Men gather them, and cast into the fire, and they are burned”?

Observe, first, the plural pronouns.

It is not “men gather him and cast into the fire, and he is burned,” as it would most certainly have been had an unbeliever, in view.

The change of number here is very striking, and evidences, once more, the minute accuracy of Scripture.
“Unless any one abide in me, he is east forth as a branch, and men gather them and cast into the fire and they are burned.”

In the original it is not “men gather them,” but “they gather them.”

Light is thrown on this by Matthew 13:41, 42:
“The Son of man shall send forth his angels and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity: And shall cast them into a furnace of fire:
There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

Note the two distinct items here:
- the angels gather “all things that offend” and
- “them which do iniquity.”

In the light of John 15:6 the first of these actions will be fulfilled at the session of the judgment-seat of Christ (2 Cor. 5:10), the second when He returns to the earth.

Here then is a most solemn warning and heart-searching prospect for every Christian. Either your life and my life is, as the result of continuous fellowship with Christ, bringing forth fruit to the glory of the Father, fruit which will remain; or, because of neglect of communion with Him, we are in immense danger of being set aside as His witnesses on earth, to bring forth only that which the fire will consume in a coming Day. May the Holy Spirit apply the words of the Lord Jesus to each conscience and heart.[1]


Exposition of John's Gospel, Arthur Walkington Pink
Thanks for your time to write all of these, but instead of obsessing over a few words, phrases and verses, I’d like to hear your thoughts on the entirety of the Farewell Speech from John 14 to 17, the backdrop, the timing, the purpose, the structure, etc., show me the big picture, then fit John 15:1-8 into it. Keep going down one rabbit hole and struggling at the bottom of it ain’t gonna help, it’s not convincing.
 
OSAS is NOT in the scriptures Jonathan.
Read Rom. 8:38-39. And Eph. 2:8-10. Again, “trinity” is NOT in the scriptures, are you gonna say it doesn’t exist? There’s no “second coming” verbatim either, does that mean Yeshua’s not gonna return?
 
Read Rom. 8:38-39. And Eph. 2:8-10. Again, “trinity” is NOT in the scriptures, are you gonna say it doesn’t exist? There’s no “second coming” verbatim either, does that mean Yeshua’s not gonna return?

Rom 8:38-39; says nothing can separate you from the love of God. That's great, but the "love" of God, is NOT the "salvation" of God. God loves even unsaved sinners. I don't know how people
get those two things confused with each other. Just because God loves you, doesn't mean you are saved.

Rom 5:8; But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Eph 2:8-9 (the creed of the Calvinist) says you can't get saved by works alone. You are saved by grace through faith and that's a gift... OK, what does any of that have to do with OSAS?
The Bible says some people fall short of grace. The Bible says faith can be lost. Gifts can be given away or even refused. No one has a problem with God saving us by grace through faith.
Or even that it's a gift from God. No one is arguing any of that, but it has nothing to do with OSAS.

Heb 12:15; See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;
Luke 8:13; "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

Heb 2:1; For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it.
Heb 2:2; For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty,
Heb 2:3; how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,
 
But, that assumes your understanding of those passages is correct. You've not presented anything that "states" salvation can't be lost. I think we all accept that the Scriptures are inerrant. Based on that, they are facts. The question is, how do we understand those facts? In another post, I gave an example of two scientists. They both look at the same fossil and draw two completely different conclusions, why? They both have the same degrees, they both went to the same school, etc. The only different is that one is a creationist and the other an evolutionist. It's the presuppositions that they bring to the evidence. One presupposes that God exists and the other doesn't. These presuppositions lead them to completely different conclusions from the same evidence. So, it's not the evidence that needs to be examined, it's the presuppositions. It's the same here. The Scriptures are the evidence, the presuppositions determine how one interprets that evidence. To solve this, we need to establish which, if either, set of presuppositions is correct. That's why these debates go on and on without any reconciliation. Each side has their presuppositions and sees the scriptures through that lens. The problem is they don't prove their presuppositions are correct. That's why I keep making the point that there is nothing that "states" that salvation can't be lost. We don't have a clear statement saying that. That means everything used is inference, interpretation, or opinion, all of which are based on presuppositions which are subject to error.

Also, if you look at the last part of post 238 there some other reasons to reconsider your position.
Your presupposition in post 238 against the reformers is surely subject to error, because prior to the reformation is over a thousand years of Catholicism, known as the dark age, and Catholicism itself is but a hodgepodge of various pagan traditions with a Christian facade, the clergy acted as the intermediates between God and man like Levi priests, common people had no access to the word of God or any legit knowledge. Whatever “early church teaching” was perverted and corrupted by the Catholic Church. They had suppressed real Christianity by stealing its name. It was the reformers restored the original Christianity. They didn’t invent new doctrines or new beliefs, they revived old doctrines and old beliefs - from the early church, as close as they can get. For the first time in history, Christians can build a relationship with God through Yeshua directly without any clergyman acting as the middleman. In fact, that’s when real Christianity began to break out of Europe and spread all over the world, it’s not a coincidence that this great progress of the Great Commission overlapped with the Grographic Discovery, because that’s how “people run to and fro and knowledge increases.”

You know what my presupposition is? My presupposition is that Christianity is a RELATIONSHIP, not a religion. It’s a covenant God made with his chosen people, starting with Abraham in Gen. 12:1-3, sealed with the blood of Christ in Matt. 26:27-28, and reaffirmed by Paul in Gal. 3:26-29.
 
Rom 8:38-39; says nothing can separate you from the love of God. That's great, but the "love" of God, is NOT the "salvation" of God. God loves even unsaved sinners. I don't know how people
get those two things confused with each other. Just because God loves you, doesn't mean you are saved.

Rom 5:8; But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Eph 2:8-9 (the creed of the Calvinist) says you can't get saved by works alone. You are saved by grace through faith and that's a gift... OK, what does any of that have to do with OSAS?
The Bible says some people fall short of grace. The Bible says faith can be lost. Gifts can be given away or even refused. No one has a problem with God saving us by grace through faith.
Or even that it's a gift from God. No one is arguing any of that, but it has nothing to do with OSAS.

Heb 12:15; See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;
Luke 8:13; "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

Heb 2:1; For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it.
Heb 2:2; For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty,
Heb 2:3; how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,
You decide what salvation means to you, brother, I’m not gonna put words in your mouth - or your fingertips. Just keep this in mind, that It is written, “if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves.” A real Christian is convicted of their sin by the Holy Spirit, as the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin (Jn 16:8), and they’ll struggle with their sin for the rest of their lives, the greater their sin, the harder the struggle. That’s Paul’s experience in Rom. 7:13-25.
 
And branches were broken off... Or is it only Paul that said that... Hmmm...
When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. This is why the so called proof texting is ineffective, especially when the only proof text you have is John 15:6 taken out of context. I actually agree with B-A-C on that.
 
Heb 2:1; For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it.
Heb 2:2; For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty,
Heb 2:3; how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,
This is talking about spiritual maturity, the readers of that book were primarily Hebrews. Back then in the Roman Empire, Judaism was recognized as a legitimate religion with legal right for them to practice, whereas Christianity was no longer just a sect of Judaism, but an illegal religion, Christians were being persecuted, therefore they were afraid, and they were backsliding to their old rituals while abandoning Christ, that’s the background of the book. Your interpretation does not fit this context.

I suggest you read Heb. 5:13 carefully, “... for he is a BABE.” If salvation can be lost, then it would say, “he is aborted.” That’s what Democrats believe, you can join them if you like, I’ll stick to the word of God, and I won’t use one portion of Scripture against another.
 
So? Isn’t that my point? Yeshua was using the vine and branches as an analogy to illustrate the importance of the church body and each individual member. You can’t abide in Him without abiding in your LOCAL called-out assembly, aka, the ekklasia. Picturing this “Many members around the world” in your head is not fellowship, physical presence is required. Again, “lone wolf Christianity” doesn’t work, that’s what “abide” is all about in John 15:1-8.

No

Each soul is responsible for their own sins/salvation, we are each to abide in Him, the congregation/assembly are each responsible for the fruits they bear.

Each soul is grafted into the vine, each soul must product fruit, the Husbandman, vinedresser checks every single branch.

We are each spiritual bricks to quote it another way, we are built up into the ekklesia. Each brick is singular, each brick can degrade. The assembly

We bring Glory to God in the fruit we bear, individually or collectively, but the abiding is individually with the Lord.
 
Judas might be out at the moment, but such there will always be a Judas element in the church as the tares sown among the wheats, or wolf in sheep’s clothing, otherwise he wouldn’t have given such warnings in various ways.

True so we should heed the warnings.

That is what we have be discussing all along, John 15:1-17, Jesus gives us a graphic picture, colourful in content, but the warning is black and white.

Listen to Jesus, all authority has been given unto Him
 
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