Non-OSAS belief - undermines the cross

[Brother-Paul]

Read Rom. 8:38-39. And Eph. 2:8-10. Again, “trinity” is NOT in the scriptures, are you gonna say it doesn’t exist? There’s no “second coming” verbatim either, does that mean Yeshua’s not gonna return?

Yes Paul was convinced..... but he was abiding wasn't he.

It is those who are not abiding that should be very concerned, Not my words, Jesus said it, He has all authority to do so.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Thanks for your time to write all of these, but instead of obsessing over a few words, phrases and verses, I’d like to hear your thoughts on the entirety of the Farewell Speech from John 14 to 17, the backdrop, the timing, the purpose, the structure, etc., show me the big picture, then fit John 15:1-8 into it. Keep going down one rabbit hole and struggling at the bottom of it ain’t gonna help, it’s not convincing.

It is pointless Jonathan, if you do not believe the basic things that have been shared in detail, by many members, you will believe what you want to believe on everything else.

13 pages @ 20 posts per page and the wheel keeps turning round and round

When everything goes round and round for so long it is sometimes best to draw a line.

I say it in love, you and @KingJ have minds set in concrete.

Shalom

 

[Brother-Paul]

Seriously, man, and everyone who denies OSAS, put down the bible and ask yourself this: if salvation can be lost, what's the point of being saved? Is it worth of giving up everything for a temporary salvation that is contingent upon your behavior? Where is your faith while you lecture on me about faith?

I have highlighted the statement I wish to reply to. I cannot believe you have actually written that or even think it.

What is the point is as bad as thinking 'what if'
What is the point of a man marrying a woman if she may die?
What is the point of a woman marrying a man if could commit adultery?
What is the point of life is we are going to die?

What is the point of being saved if salvation can be lost?

This is the point brother
We realise we are sinners we want to be forgiven, we find out Jesus died on the cross, shedding his blood so that we can be saved, so that our sins are washed away.

Jesus knocks on the door of our hearts, we have to open our heart to him (Not works please)
Salvation is a gift from God, like all gifts we have to take it. (Not works please)
Christ cannot be in our heart unless, we repent, accept and submit ourselves to Jesus, to God through Jesus. When we abide in Him, He will abide in us. We have to make the first move. (Not works please)

The same applies to falling away, falling back into sin. It is not God that does this, it is US, Christ abides in us, so long as we abide in Him. The fruit withers because we are not abiding in Jesus, the salt loses its saltiness, it is good for nothing. Without Jesus we can do nothing.

So what is the point of being saved, every point brother, because the promise of salvation is the same from start to our journeys end in this life. It is always us that mess up, if we are liking sin, we are liking God less, hence the withering. But the Father doesn't just cut us from the vine, no no, he is the vine dresser, he will do all he can to help us bear fruit, but when the branch has withered to a point it affects the good growth of the vine, he cuts out, he casts out the branches that have withered and died, the ones whose hearts have grown cold, the ones who prefer to sin again, have to be cast out, they are spiritually dead,

Those who continue to abide in Jesus, have no need to worry, so why do you seem so worried? Worried enough to say, if salvation can be lost, what's the point of being saved?

All born again souls receive the same promise, it doesn't change, God doesn't change, The Word doesn't change, the only one that changes is the individual.
The one who was so grateful to be saved from the penalty of their sins, who crucified the old self to be with Jesus, has fallen back into its old sinful self. How sad is that brother, how ungrateful is that, even more ungrateful is that they expect to fall back into sin and the sinful world and still expect to be saved.

Whatever you believe, believe this my friend, God is in control, Jesus died so we can be saved, he preached, he teached, he spoke with authority, he spoke in love. He told amazing parables from the simplest items, wheat, thorns, oysters, field, the vine and more, all pointing us to heaven.

Listen to Jesus, all authority has been given to Him, follow Him, abide in Him, remain in Him so He can remain in you. No wonder Mary said, 'Do whatever He tells you', obey His Commands, He will never leave us, it is us that leave Him. That is enough for me, OSAS or Not OSAS doesn't matter, it is not in the Bible, it has come about by people trying to make simple things more complicated. But what I have shared my friend does come from The Word, and the Vine and the branches from The Word Himself. Thank be to God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Amen.

Blessed are the little children for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.

In His Love

Brother Paul \o/

 

[Waggles]

Faith is invalid and powerless if you believe salvation can be lost.

Gobbledegook typical OSAS nonsense
The fear of God is a great motivation to continue walking in the Spirit - to endure and overcome

Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say therefore, Branches were broken off, that I be grafted in.
11:20 Well; by their unbelief were they broken off, and thou stand by the faith. Be not high-minded, but fear:
11:21 for if God spared not the natural branches, neither will he spare thee.

Philippians 2:12 So that, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much rather in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
2:13 for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.

 

[Waggles]

There’s no “second coming” verbatim either,

What ?? !!
Your Bible must have missing verses.
No wonder you believe false doctrine such as OSAS

 

[Waggles]

It was the reformers restored the original Christianity.

No that is simply untrue.
The Reformation reformed Roman Catholicism, the reformers of this period did not revive the Pentecostal church of the NT age with it signs following and spiritual gifts manifest in the body of Christ.
That came much later [the latter rain] in the 1880s onwards until the present.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

No

Each soul is responsible for their own sins/salvation, we are each to abide in Him, the congregation/assembly are each responsible for the fruits they bear.

Each soul is grafted into the vine, each soul must product fruit, the Husbandman, vinedresser checks every single branch.

We are each spiritual bricks to quote it another way, we are built up into the ekklesia. Each brick is singular, each brick can degrade. The assembly

We bring Glory to God in the fruit we bear, individually or collectively, but the abiding is individually with the Lord.

Yeah, you keep lecturing on me, we must abide in him, we must abide in him, how about you putting your feet in a disciple’s feet AT THAY MOMENT? Think about Peter, the most outspoken disciple- “Even if all are made to stumble because of you, I will never stumble!” “Even if I have to die with You, I will never deny you!” (Matt. 26:33, 35) Then what happened? While Yeshua was being tried by the Sanhedrin, all it took was a little girl to call out Peter, and he denied Yeshua three times. Later, it was the Holy Spirit that gave Peter the courage to confront the authorities and preach the gospel in Yeshua’s name, and most importantly he did not do it alone. When he was arrested, the whole congregation prayed for him overnight that brought him out. So get your head off the clouds, and stop repeating the same talking points with your fancy Christianese. Don’t you realize that you’re boasting the work of man, and taking the credit for obedience to your own willpower, while it is actually the work of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

What ?? !!
Your Bible must have missing verses.
No wonder you believe false doctrine such as OSAS

Then show me which exact verse has the word “second” and “coming” put together.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

It is pointless Jonathan, if you do not believe the basic things that have been shared in detail, by many members, you will believe what you want to believe on everything else.

13 pages @ 20 posts per page and the wheel keeps turning round and round

When everything goes round and round for so long it is sometimes best to draw a line.

I say it in love, you and @KingJ have minds set in concrete.

Shalom

Is it pointless - or do you have n idea about these things that I mentioned? Maybe you don’t think those matter, but those are the real basics, they set the overall narrative and context, they lay the foundation to build any argument of any individual verse within that context. And yet over 13 pages @ 20 posts per page, you’ve never explained any of that, you dove right in the middle of the Farewell Discourse without knowing where it came from and where it went. You’re taking an eisegetical approach of developing a doctrine of man around one small portion of the Scripture, and as a result you’re stuck in your own rabbit hole, you fail to see the forest for the tree. This is like most Christians who start from John 1:1 instead of Genesis 1:1 and end up getting the wrong “word”, and thus a wrong Jesus.

 

[joestue]

When he was arrested, the whole congregation prayed for him overnight that brought him out.

I had thought to reply to you earlier on the specific point brother Paul did in his post #263, but thought the better of it, lest I be throwing pearls before swine.

But what you mention in my quote in this post is nowhere in scripture. Peter wept bitterly... For various reasons. He deeply knew Jesus was Lord, yet denied him in fear. Under OT law he knew there was no one to intercede for him, as the ot priests could only intercede on their own human strength and were limited, as is mentioned in Hebrews 4:15.

I can confidently say Peter thought he lost his salvation (whatever that meant to him at the time). Hence he wept bitterly.

 

[joestue]

I have highlighted the statement I wish to reply to. I cannot believe you have actually written that or even think it.

I was temporary astonished and was not offended at the same. It was one of those things you instantly recognize as something from darkness.

As it is now, I have nothing to add, and am offended. Will wait and see if the conversation is worth continuing.

And again I don't have a side to pick in the osas argument. But you can't supply evidence from something that has never been in scripture nor even in gnostic texts...

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I have highlighted the statement I wish to reply to. I cannot believe you have actually written that or even think it.

What is the point is as bad as thinking 'what if'
What is the point of a man marrying a woman if she may die?
What is the point of a woman marrying a man if could commit adultery?
What is the point of life is we are going to die?

What is the point of being saved if salvation can be lost?

This is the point brother
We realise we are sinners we want to be forgiven, we find out Jesus died on the cross, shedding his blood so that we can be saved, so that our sins are washed away.

Jesus knocks on the door of our hearts, we have to open our heart to him (Not works please)
Salvation is a gift from God, like all gifts we have to take it. (Not works please)
Christ cannot be in our heart unless, we repent, accept and submit ourselves to Jesus, to God through Jesus. When we abide in Him, He will abide in us. We have to make the first move. (Not works please)

The same applies to falling away, falling back into sin. It is not God that does this, it is US, Christ abides in us, so long as we abide in Him. The fruit withers because we are not abiding in Jesus, the salt loses its saltiness, it is good for nothing. Without Jesus we can do nothing.

So what is the point of being saved, every point brother, because the promise of salvation is the same from start to our journeys end in this life. It is always us that mess up, if we are liking sin, we are liking God less, hence the withering. But the Father doesn't just cut us from the vine, no no, he is the vine dresser, he will do all he can to help us bear fruit, but when the branch has withered to a point it affects the good growth of the vine, he cuts out, he casts out the branches that have withered and died, the ones whose hearts have grown cold, the ones who prefer to sin again, have to be cast out, they are spiritually dead,

Those who continue to abide in Jesus, have no need to worry, so why do you seem so worried? Worried enough to say, if salvation can be lost, what's the point of being saved?

All born again souls receive the same promise, it doesn't change, God doesn't change, The Word doesn't change, the only one that changes is the individual.
The one who was so grateful to be saved from the penalty of their sins, who crucified the old self to be with Jesus, has fallen back into its old sinful self. How sad is that brother, how ungrateful is that, even more ungrateful is that they expect to fall back into sin and the sinful world and still expect to be saved.

Whatever you believe, believe this my friend, God is in control, Jesus died so we can be saved, he preached, he teached, he spoke with authority, he spoke in love. He told amazing parables from the simplest items, wheat, thorns, oysters, field, the vine and more, all pointing us to heaven.

Listen to Jesus, all authority has been given to Him, follow Him, abide in Him, remain in Him so He can remain in you. No wonder Mary said, 'Do whatever He tells you', obey His Commands, He will never leave us, it is us that leave Him. That is enough for me, OSAS or Not OSAS doesn't matter, it is not in the Bible, it has come about by people trying to make simple things more complicated. But what I have shared my friend does come from The Word, and the Vine and the branches from The Word Himself. Thank be to God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Amen.

Blessed are the little children for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.

In His Love

Brother Paul \o/

Trust me, friend, I do worry about a lot of things and other people around me because I care, but I've NEVER, EVER worried about my salvation through the blood of Christ ever since I surrendered my life to Yeshua because I believe ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED. Everthing is falling apart in this chaotic world, that only strengthened my faith in him. The darker the backround, the brighter the light.

Yes, without Jesus we can do nothing, that's the word of Yeshua, I agree 100%. But tell me, HOW can we abide in him - in his ABSENCE? You know, this ruffles a lot of feathers, it upsets most of the Chritians to accept this scriptural fact that the real Yeshua HaMashiach is no longer with us, He's acended into heaven and seated at the right hand of God (Matthew 26:64, 1 Peter 3:22, Romans 8:34, Luke 22:69, Psalm 110:1, Ephesians 1:20, Mark 14:62, Acts 7:56), that's why he sent the Holy Spirit to guide us, lead us, mold us and mostly importantly, EMPOWER us. Beside the full armor of God, it is the only offensive weapon to fight back against the enemy in the spiritual warefare - while the Lord is in heaven confronting Satan who's "accusing our brethrens day and night" (Rev. 12:10).

You keep justifying yourself by repeatedly saying "Not works please", while you've totally ignored the real answer from Yeshua himself, which is the Promised Helper, right there in the next chapter. You fail to realize that "abide in Jesus" could trap you in false doctrines and lead you to abide in false versions of Jesus, which there are many in these days; only the Holy Spirit can reveal the real Yeshua to you, the real Lord and Savior set up in the entire Old Testament. You are blind to see what's right there in the second half of Chapter 15, which is to "love one another" - in your church group, to hold one another accountable, to advance as one body on the narrow path of righteousness, following the guide of the Holy Spirit.

The bottom line is, you've got a wrong definition of salvation, and totally misinterpreted John 15:1-8. The branches being cut off are the ones practicing their work based religion within the church instead of developing an intimate relationship with God through Yeshua. They are the havenots whom Yeshua "never knew" in the first place. Real believers, on the other hand, are the branches that DO BEAR FRUIT, which the Father prunes through the mountains and valleys in the life journey, so we can bear more fruit.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I had thought to reply to you earlier on the specific point brother Paul did in his post #263, but thought the better of it, lest I be throwing pearls before swine.

But what you mention in my quote in this post is nowhere in scripture. Peter wept bitterly... For various reasons. He deeply knew Jesus was Lord, yet denied him in fear. Under OT law he knew there was no one to intercede for him, as the ot priests could only intercede on their own human strength and were limited, as is mentioned in Hebrews 4:15.

I can confidently say Peter thought he lost his salvation (whatever that meant to him at the time). Hence he wept bitterly.

It was definitely mentioned - Acts 12:5, "the church was earnestly praying to God for him." That prayer was so powerful that it called down the angels that set Peter free from bondage in the following verses. Peter did NOT set himself free by his own strength, it was God who set him free. Don't falsely accuse me of making stuffs up when it is you are ignorant of this portion of the Scripture. Whether he lost his salvation or not, though, it's up to God, not you or me to speculate.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

And again I don't have a side to pick in the osas argument. But you can't supply evidence from something that has never been in scripture nor even in gnostic texts...

Again, I have shown you John 8:35, you are free to draw your own conclusion.

 

[joestue]

Trust me, friend, I do worry about a lot of things

Why would anyone trust you?

I've NEVER, EVER worried about my salvation through the blood of Christ ever since I surrendered my life to Yeshua because I believe ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED

Your confidence in salvation depends on your own beliefs?!

But tell me, HOW can we abide in him - in his ABSENCE?

He is not absent!
Far from it. I have no shortage of work to do. Nearly All of it is personal and private, lest I should boast. I speak too much of my ex in my failings. My wife is still afraid to tell people she was in a wheelchair 4 years ago, yet there are even more personal and private things she could boast about.

that's why he sent the Holy Spirit to guide us, lead us, mold us and mostly importantly, EMPOWER us.

If you actually believe this in the context of your post, then you just declared Jesus is not the holy Spirit. They are one.

It was definitely mentioned - Acts 12:5, "the church was earnestly praying to God for him." That prayer was so powerful that it called down the angels that set Peter free from bondage in the following verses

This had nothing to do with his denial of Jesus.

He was in prison for whatever pissed off the Romans.

He could have waited for God to deliver him and likely he would have been. Not a salvation issue.

How many millions in China have died during live organ harvesting? None were supernaturally delivered? Hmmm...

 

[joestue]

Again, I have shown you John 8:35, you are free to draw your own conclusion.

If you are a son, you will continue in the work your father has started.

If you rebell you will be cut off from your father and loose your inheritance.

 

[Butch5]

Your presupposition in post 238 against the reformers is surely subject to error, because prior to the reformation is over a thousand years of Catholicism, known as the dark age, and Catholicism itself is but a hodgepodge of various pagan traditions with a Christian facade, the clergy acted as the intermediates between God and man like Levi priests, common people had no access to the word of God or any legit knowledge. Whatever “early church teaching” was perverted and corrupted by the Catholic Church. They had suppressed real Christianity by stealing its name. It was the reformers restored the original Christianity. They didn’t invent new doctrines or new beliefs, they revived old doctrines and old beliefs - from the early church, as close as they can get. For the first time in history, Christians can build a relationship with God through Yeshua directly without any clergyman acting as the middleman. In fact, that’s when real Christianity began to break out of Europe and spread all over the world, it’s not a coincidence that this great progress of the Great Commission overlapped with the Grographic Discovery, because that’s how “people run to and fro and knowledge increases.”

You know what my presupposition is? My presupposition is that Christianity is a RELATIONSHIP, not a religion. It’s a covenant God made with his chosen people, starting with Abraham in Gen. 12:1-3, sealed with the blood of Christ in Matt. 26:27-28, and reaffirmed by Paul in Gal. 3:26-29.

It seems to me that you've not studied early church history. If you had I don't believe you could honestly say the Reformers brought back original Christianity. It's pretty clear they did anything but that. The early church taught that man has free will. The Reformers taught that he didn't. The early church taught that salvation could be lost. The Reformers taught it couldn't be. The Reformers taught that people were chosen to be saved before they were born. The early church taught no such thing. No, anyone who has studied the early church will clearly see that the Reformers didn't restore original Christianity. The Catholic church did pervert some things. However, that is irrelevant to the subject at hand as they didn't change the doctrine regarding salvation. They taught the same thing that was taught from the very start, that salvation can be lost. We have 1500 years of the church teaching that salvation can be lost. Then all of a sudden, the Reformers claim it can't be. As I said, to side with the Reformers is to accept the idea that the apostles failed. That they weren't able to establish the correct doctrine. It's to accept that those taught by the apostles all believed false doctrine. It's to accept that the entirety of the church had false doctrine for 1500 years. Are you willing to accept all of this? How much evidence are we willing to deny in order to hold to a doctrinal position?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Why would anyone trust you?

Don't trust me, trust in the word of God.

Your confidence in salvation depends on your own beliefs?!

"It is FINISHED", declared the Lord himself on the cross. I believe in the salvation sealed in the blood that can never be lost, you believe in a salvation contingent on your own confidence and works.

He is not absent!
Far from it. I have no shortage of work to do. Nearly All of it is personal and private, lest I should boast. I speak too much of my ex in my failings. My wife is still afraid to tell people she was in a wheelchair 4 years ago, yet there are even more personal and private things she could boast about.

I'm sorry to hear that, man, but the Lord clearly said at the beginning of the Farewell Discourse, that he was about to depart from the disciples, and "where I go you cannot follow." Don't take my word for it, read it for yourself. I didn't cherrypick one specific verse, I listed a whole bunch of verses that speak in unison of the same message that Yeshua is in heaven seated at the right hand of the Father. If you don't bother to read, then don't blame me for your stubbornness.

If you actually believe this in the context of your post, then you just declared Jesus is not the holy Spirit. They are one.

No, the Holy Trinity is three persons, working in unison for the same purpose but also in different ways. You have the basics wrong.

This had nothing to do with his denial of Jesus.

He was in prison for whatever pissed off the Romans.

He could have waited for God to deliver him and likely he would have been. Not a salvation issue.

How many millions in China have died during live organ harvesting? None were supernaturally delivered? Hmmm...

If you think you're greater and holier than Peter, the first disciple of Yeshua, the leader of the pack, instead of humbling yourself to relate to his experience, then keep living in your delusion.

 

[joestue]

Where you are going Johnathan. I will not follow.

 

[joestue]

"It is FINISHED", declared the Lord himself on the cross

The work God sent him to do was finished.

And it had nearly nothing to do with you. Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel at the time. (if you really want to go by what is written).