Non-OSAS belief - undermines the cross

[Brother-Paul]

Yes you are, this is the only section you keep quoting to deny OSAS, and you're taking it out of context.

No I am not brother.
I am quoting John 15 over and over again because some people are denying it, saying it proves OSAS, it doesn't.

I am quoting Jesus' words, which must never be ignored.

Do you realize that this whole speech is known as the "farewell discourse" that took place at the Last Supper? Yeshua was about to be arrested, tried and crucified, John 15 was in his parting words to his disciples, and you're taking it out of the context. This analogy was urging us to abide in the church congregation, for the church is the body of Christ, based on Gen. 2:23 -

"This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

The purpose of John's gospel, stated by John himself, is to show that Jesus of Nazareth was Christ, the Son of God, and that believers in him might have eternal life.

The theme of John's Gospel is that Jesus is the long-awaited, promised Messiah and Son of God.

What is special about John's gospel?

John's gospel is different from the other three in the New Testament. That fact has been recognized since the early church itself.

His message was that God's judgment on the world was imminent and that, to prepare for this judgment, the people should repent their sins, be baptized,
and produce appropriate fruits of repentance.

There are two main themes of the Gospel of John?
To grasp the message of John' writing, one must search out and follow these themes through the whole of his gospel.
The dual between
- light (Christ and his ways) and
- darkness (Satan and the ways of the world) which is one of the more obvious themes in the Gospel of John.

We should note that it is difficult to reconcile the chronology of the last week of Jesus' life on earth as recorded in John's Gospel with the Synoptic Gospels.

But also note how important it is to listen to Jesus;

We the church was cleansed of our sins by the power of His blood that literally flew out of his side. When Yeshua said, "I am the vine, you're the branches," that's referring to the Church body and each individuals. Yeshua was teaching them how to run the ministry after he was gone - in his absence. Believers ought to stick together and follow the guide of the holy spirit. You've heard a lot of people say that "I'm spiritual but not religious," what they mean is that they're "lone wolf Christians" who don't think they need any fellowship and group support, they can worship on their own, and that is how the branch is falling off and withering away. He wasn't talking about eternal salvation in that speech as you think.

First we must get the Church right

- kuriakkon, a word introduced by the RCC for the building. NOT IN Scripture.

- ekklesia, the body of Christ, the one and only True Church

- You do not go to church, no no, you go to be with the church
- The congregation is NOT the church, only the born again from above are the ekklesia, the Church, the Body of Christ

WHY?
- Because God is Spirit
- We worship in Spirit and Truth
- Only those who are born again, grafted into the vine and abide in Him are the church, the spiritual body of believers with the Holy Spirit of Christ in them

You can be a member of a group, a denomination, call it what you will, but being a member of a group calling yourself a church only makes you a member of the group, not the body of Christ.

When we are born again from above, having submitted our all to God through Jesus, (and everything else He requests of us) the Holy Spirit connects to our spirit, we are grafted into the vine as branches. We become part of the body of Christ, the One True Church, the ekklesia.

Jesus stands at the door of our heart and knocks, we have to open the door. (One member on here may say this is work).
We are Saved by Grace through Faith, not our doing.
We have to repent, be baptised, proclaim our Faith and submit to God through Jesus. (One member may say this is work).
God offers us the Free Gift of Salvation, like all gifts we have to take it. (One member may say this is work).
God calls us but we have to respond to that call (One member may say this is work).

We can go to a place of worship, wrongly called a church, that doesn't mean we are part of the Church, the ekklesia, the Body of Christ.
We can be part of a congregation in a place of worship, that doesn't mean we are part of the Church, the ekklesia, the Body of Christ.
If pastors (under any name) call their congregation, the church, or Saints, they mislead the souls in their presence.

Unless we are born again of water and spirit, unless we are spiritually regenerated, unless we are grafted into the vine, we ARE NOT a member of the body of Christ of which Jesus is the head of.

What you have kindly written, does not convince me, that what Jesus says in John 15 is misunderstood in any way. OSAS is not in scripture, John 15 clearly states we can wither and be cast out, cut out of the vine. I continue to pray on the topic but confirm also the Holy Spirit has not revealed to be any misunderstanding. I remain open hearted.

Bless you

 

[Brother-Paul]

Yes, because unlike a normal healer, He healed instantly and permanently, that's the very essence and a vivid demonstration of OSAS, and you're denying it.

The power of God through the Holy Spirit, through Jesus, healed the person... because of their faith.

John 14:12-13 (NKJV)
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.
And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, [according to the Father's will] I will do it.

Jesus said many times... 'O ye of little faith'.

Hebrews 11:1 (NKJV)
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Matthew 17:20-21 (NKJV)
So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you. However, this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting.”

Scripture has a lot to say about Faith, we think we have it, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

We should be able to healed a person... by The power of God through the Holy Spirit, through Jesus, through prayer and fasting.
If we don't do so we have insufficient faith. We are too reliant on medicines today.
I will pray for healing, please pray for me, my appointment at the doctors is in an hour!!!

In His Love

 

[Brother-Paul]

Dear brothers you need to read the story of the young rich man. You guys are quoting John, Matthew and Luke. For context on these passages you have selected, you need to consider Matt 19:16-30.

Have you sold everything you have brother?

Just asking.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

No I am not brother.
I am quoting John 15 over and over again because some people are denying it, saying it proves OSAS, it doesn't.

I am quoting Jesus' words, which must never be ignored.

You're developing a doctrine out of that one piece of Scripture to build your own argument. If you meant not to ignore Yeshua's words, then don't ignore the purpose of the whole farewell discourse from John 14 to 17, which is His final message to the disciples, His departure, encouragement, instruction and the promise of the Holy Spirit. Right after this speech, he was betrayed and arrested in the garden. Any interpretation must fit into this context, and I don't see how yours does.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Dear brothers you need to read the story of the young rich man. You guys are quoting John, Matthew and Luke. For context on these passages you have selected, you need to consider Matt 19:16-30.

The young rich man obeyed all the laws, but Jesus said that that is not enough to enter heaven. He must also go and sell all he has.

This speaks to the fact that his heart was not sold out to Jesus. Having a heart sold out to Jesus is Christianity 101 as explained here What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

With regards to Christianity specifically (post gospels), you two are getting the cart before the horse.

Greetings

You are falling for a situation many fall into brother.

Notice what you quote to make it fit what you want to believe and say it puts things in context. It does not mention the word abide. Let me explain further.

Many people read scripture, putting aside other scripture, and take it to be right. Example

- Believe in the Lord and you will be saved
- Be baptised and you will be saved
- Call on the Name of the Lord and you will be saved
- Trust in the Lord and you will be saved
- etc, etc.

On their own, that is what they say,
- person one thinks they are saved because they say they believe
- person two thinks they are saved because they were baptised (some believe it because they were Christened as a baby)
- another person thinks they are saved because they called and said, Lord I pray I win the lottery tonight.
- etc, etc.

So I cannot see based on your comments how you think, abiding in the vine or being cast out in any way is put in context by the verses you quote in Matthew 19

ALL scripture is God breathed and should be read in the right context, you do not appear to be doing this. You seem to be accepting all scripture, putting all the verses in a mixing bowl and dishing out items as they come.

Shalom

 

[Brother-Paul]

You worship in spirit and truth? You sure about that? I believe that but don't see how non-OSAS supports that.

If you do not ''do'' church attendance, obeying laws, breaking of bread, confession.....how do you remain faithful? Worshipping God in ''Spirit and truth'' is not ''remaining faithful''. The two phrases are not mutually inclusive.

There are other situations to take into consideration.

You don't attend a church brother, you go to be with the church, the ekklesia.

When two or three come together in my name, says Jesus, I am there in the midst of you.

A group of born again from above believers, can come together anywhere and worship in Spirit and Truth.

The early church knew this, they came together in their homes and elsewhere. The location was not important, it is the heart of those coming together who have the spirit in them that is the church, it can be two or three, two or three dozen, two or three hundred etc. The church is not the amount of people coming together, it is only the ones who are born again of water and spirit, who abide in Jesus and He through the Holy Spirit abides in them, in their heart.

Where do we pray? Where do we repent of our sins?
- Anywhere and everywhere, life is a prayer.

Who do we pray to?
- To God through Jesus, in Jesus Name.

 

[Brother-Paul]

You need to think of a relationship. We as Christians are in a relationship with Jesus.

In a marriage, how do you ''remain'' in the marriage?

There should be ''one'' rule. Namely, no adultery Matt 19:9 and Matt 5:32.

Do you think I do not know that brother.

Of course we are in a relationship with the Lord, from the point of being born again from above.

He is the groom, we the born again from above souls are his future bride, we are betrothed to Him, the equivalent of marriage, we are just waiting for Him to Return and take us home to be with Him forever.

That is why Jesus tells us, we must abide in Him, we must be ready for His return, wicks trimmed, oil in our lamps, and remain faithful. He is without sin, we are to practice righteousness, listen to Him, follow Him, learn from Him, abide in Him. Because if we do not abide in Him, we are withering, we are abiding more in sin and the world of sin. The one who grafted us in can graft us out. The key words are 'Listen to Jesus', he does not say things for no reason, everything He said was for a reason, a good reason. All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Jesus, we must listen to Him, we must listen to His every Word.

 

[Brother-Paul]

His commands were to obey all the laws and give up everything we have Matt 19:16-30.

How are these not '''works'' . They are the definition of works.

Saying works are needed after salvation to stay saved is the same thing as saying works are needed before salvation to be saved. You are....merely moving the goal posts. The underlying criteria in your belief for salvation, is works.

You are trying to change the definition of ''works''. Sorry, Brother Paul, you do not get to re-invent the word 'works' just because you don't want to mention it in your belief.

Your definition of works appear to be different to Jesus'.

If Jesus tells us to do something, we are to do it, the alternative is disobedience

If Jesus gives us a command, we are to do it, we would be a fool not to.

No way am I trying or even attempting to define the word works, if Jesus tells us to do something do it, if He commands us to do something we should do so.

Look at your past posts brother, you quote over and over again, this is work or that is work, if Jesus says do it, you may call it work, I would rather do what He requests or Commands.

 

[Brother-Paul]

You're developing a doctrine out of that one piece of Scripture to build your own argument. If you meant not to ignore Yeshua's words, then don't ignore the purpose of the whole farewell discourse from John 14 to 17, which is His final message to the disciples, His departure, encouragement, instruction and the promise of the Holy Spirit. Right after this speech, he was betrayed and arrested in the garden. Any interpretation must fit into this context, and I don't see how yours does.

No I am not brother.
I am quoting John 15 over and over again because some people are denying it, saying it proves OSAS, it doesn't.

I am quoting Jesus' words, which must never be ignored.

 

[PloughBoy]

Dear brothers you need to read the story of the young rich man. You guys are quoting John, Matthew and Luke. For context on these passages you have selected, you need to consider Matt 19:16-30.

The young rich man obeyed all the laws, but Jesus said that that is not enough to enter heaven. He must also go and sell all he has.

This speaks to the fact that his heart was not sold out to Jesus. Having a heart sold out to Jesus is Christianity 101 as explained here What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

With regards to Christianity specifically (post gospels), you two are getting the cart before the horse.

Eph 2:9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. (Post and pre 'salvation', you simply moving the goal posts)

If you keep yourself saved, you can certainly boast of '''your ability''' to remain faithful. Whether you are saved at first or saved because you ''remain faithful'', it is all reliant on the same 'thing', your works.

You quote scripture on ''remain faithful''. Remaining faithful to ''keep salvation'' is.....obeying the laws, church attendance, breaking of bread, confession...IE Works .

Some say ''faith''. Which is even more embarrassing to defend. As the implication is that believing the ''unseen is seen'' has value to God.

your quote:
"The young rich man obeyed all the laws," but Jesus said that that is not enough to enter heaven. He must also go and sell all he has."

No he didn't, he was A liar! And Jesus knew it! Jesus caught him in a lie. Tell me, how come you do not see that? if you cannot see that, I sure cannot open your eyes.

 

[Waggles]

James 2:23 and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And he - Abraham - believed God, and it was reckoned to him for righteousness; and he was called God’s friend.
24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith alone.
25 And likewise was not also Raab the harlot justified by works, in that she received the messengers, and sent them out another way?
26 Just as the body apart from spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.

 

[KingJ]

James 2:23 and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And he - Abraham - believed God, and it was reckoned to him for righteousness; and he was called God’s friend.
24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith alone.
25 And likewise was not also Raab the harlot justified by works, in that she received the messengers, and sent them out another way?
26 Just as the body apart from spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.

The issue is not that works are bad. They are a word that should not be mentioned with salvation.

OSAS and non-OSAS discussion is all about salvation.

If works are needed before or after salvation that is a works based salvation. With regards to salvation specifically the following is true:

Isa 64:6 all our righteous acts are like filthy rags
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast

As such, if works are mentioned anywhere near the word 'salvation' it is an auto loss in the debate. Cart before horse and something for us to be able to boast about.

 

[KingJ]

James 2:23 and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And he - Abraham - believed God, and it was reckoned to him for righteousness; and he was called God’s friend.
24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith alone.
25 And likewise was not also Raab the harlot justified by works, in that she received the messengers, and sent them out another way?
26 Just as the body apart from spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.

With regards to this verse, the context of 'justify' has absolutely nothing to do with 'salvation'.

Works can get us to the airport. But the plane of salvation that flies to God is all Jesus. A free gift.

Cart before horse with works. Apples and oranges with justify and salvation.

 

[KingJ]

your quote:
"The young rich man obeyed all the laws," but Jesus said that that is not enough to enter heaven. He must also go and sell all he has."

No he didn't, he was A liar! And Jesus knew it! Jesus caught him in a lie. Tell me, how come you do not see that? if you cannot see that, I sure cannot open your eyes.

He was a liar? Do you have a verse for that?

 

[KingJ]

Your definition of works appear to be different to Jesus'.

If Jesus tells us to do something, we are to do it, the alternative is disobedience

If Jesus gives us a command, we are to do it, we would be a fool not to.

No way am I trying or even attempting to define the word works, if Jesus tells us to do something do it, if He commands us to do something we should do so.

Look at your past posts brother, you quote over and over again, this is work or that is work, if Jesus says do it, you may call it work, I would rather do what He requests or Commands.

You are being evasive.

 

[KingJ]

There are other situations to take into consideration.

You don't attend a church brother, you go to be with the church, the ekklesia.

When two or three come together in my name, says Jesus, I am there in the midst of you.

A group of born again from above believers, can come together anywhere and worship in Spirit and Truth.

The early church knew this, they came together in their homes and elsewhere. The location was not important, it is the heart of those coming together who have the spirit in them that is the church, it can be two or three, two or three dozen, two or three hundred etc. The church is not the amount of people coming together, it is only the ones who are born again of water and spirit, who abide in Jesus and He through the Holy Spirit abides in them, in their heart.

Where do we pray? Where do we repent of our sins?
- Anywhere and everywhere, life is a prayer.

Who do we pray to?
- To God through Jesus, in Jesus Name.

You are creating a red herring with 'church' and dodging points made.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

First we must get the Church right

- kuriakkon, a word introduced by the RCC for the building. NOT IN Scripture.

- ekklesia, the body of Christ, the one and only True Church

- You do not go to church, no no, you go to be with the church
- The congregation is NOT the church, only the born again from above are the ekklesia, the Church, the Body of Christ

WHY?
- Because God is Spirit
- We worship in Spirit and Truth
- Only those who are born again, grafted into the vine and abide in Him are the church, the spiritual body of believers with the Holy Spirit of Christ in them

You can be a member of a group, a denomination, call it what you will, but being a member of a group calling yourself a church only makes you a member of the group, not the body of Christ.

When we are born again from above, having submitted our all to God through Jesus, (and everything else He requests of us) the Holy Spirit connects to our spirit, we are grafted into the vine as branches. We become part of the body of Christ, the One True Church, the ekklesia.

Jesus stands at the door of our heart and knocks, we have to open the door. (One member on here may say this is work).
We are Saved by Grace through Faith, not our doing.
We have to repent, be baptised, proclaim our Faith and submit to God through Jesus. (One member may say this is work).
God offers us the Free Gift of Salvation, like all gifts we have to take it. (One member may say this is work).
God calls us but we have to respond to that call (One member may say this is work).

We can go to a place of worship, wrongly called a church, that doesn't mean we are part of the Church, the ekklesia, the Body of Christ.
We can be part of a congregation in a place of worship, that doesn't mean we are part of the Church, the ekklesia, the Body of Christ.
If pastors (under any name) call their congregation, the church, or Saints, they mislead the souls in their presence.

Unless we are born again of water and spirit, unless we are spiritually regenerated, unless we are grafted into the vine, we ARE NOT a member of the body of Christ of which Jesus is the head of.

What you have kindly written, does not convince me, that what Jesus says in John 15 is misunderstood in any way. OSAS is not in scripture, John 15 clearly states we can wither and be cast out, cut out of the vine. I continue to pray on the topic but confirm also the Holy Spirit has not revealed to be any misunderstanding. I remain open hearted.

An ekklasia is a CALLED OUT ASSEMBLY. It could be an assembly called out for any business, could be a committee, an expert panel, a task force, a board, a council. A church, though, is called out to worship God and learn His Torah. Church wasn't born on Pentecost, it was born when Abraham was called out in Gen. 12:1-3, and all God's people are heirs of Abraham (Gal. 3:28-29).

Back to John 15, I criticized you for thumping on John 15:1-8 not because I deny Yeshua's teaching, but you failed to get the message. Yes, we ought to abide in Him, but tell me, how can we abide in Him when He was arrested and tried like a criminal and crucified with two criminals? How can we abide in Him when He's ascended into heaven and no longer with us? That's where the Holy Spirit comes in. The Holy Spirit empowers us and guides us till he returns. The Holy Spirit is seven fold, running in the seven churches (Rev. 4:5, 1:20). That doesn't have to be a physical building or a particular denomination, I've never suggested or implied that, but it MUST be a gathering, for

"When two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them."

And,

"And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching."

Therefore, abiding in the vine is abiding in the group, the LOCAL body of Christ. This is NOT talking about salvation.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

No I am not brother.
I am quoting John 15 over and over again because some people are denying it, saying it proves OSAS, it doesn't.

I am quoting Jesus' words, which must never be ignored.

Yes you are. Now you're just repeating yourself. I can always come up with something new, always argue from a different angle, and always base on different Scripture portion, while you have nothing else. You're blinded by your doctrine and fail to see the bigger picture.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

The power of God through the Holy Spirit, through Jesus, healed the person... because of their faith.

If you really have faith in salvation, you wouldn't deny OSAS. Yes, OSAS is not in the bible, neither is "trinity", "substitutionary atonement", " second coming" or the word "bible" itself, that doesn't prove they are wrong.

 

[PloughBoy]

He was a liar? Do you have a verse for that?

Are you kidding? Read the very text you quoted out of. Verses are not biblical neither are they ordain or Inspired by GOD. the text is.