Non-OSAS belief - undermines the cross

[joestue]

The scale dwindles down, from 100 to 10 and finally to only one, and it gets more personal and more detailed. The parable of the prodigal son was not really a standalone tale because there's this progression, which you wouldn't notice when you're stuck with your reductionist approach. And when Yeshua told these parables, he was dining with tax collectors and "sinners", which was usually referring to prostitutes, and Matthew the disciple was among them. He was confronted with the pharisees for this, and he responded with these parables.

So how do you know you are one of the .01%

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

So how do you know you are one of the .01%

If you think you're like the big brother who can work his way to heaven and look down at his little brother with utmost contempt, if you think his way is the right way, feel free to do so.

 

[joestue]

If you think you're like the big brother who can work his way to heaven and look down at his little brother with utmost contempt, ...

Why did you interpret my question that way?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Why did you interpret my question that way?

Because you deny OSAS, you believe that the lost sheep, lost coin and the lost son are "cut off" and deserve to burn in hell based on your misinterpretation and others' misinterpretation of 15:6. That's exactly the attitude of the big brother.

 

[joestue]

Because you deny OSAS, you believe that the lost sheep, lost coin and the lost son are "cut off" and deserve to burn in hell based on your misinterpretation and others' misinterpretation of 15:6. That's exactly the attitude of the big brother.

No, it's the attitude that while the father waited patiently for the son who rebelled to return, he didn't waste his time looking for him. But he did go looking for the son who was lost... And cut off the one who betrayed him..

It's all the same thing. Contingent on you.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

No, it's the attitude that while the father waited patiently for the son who rebelled to return, he didn't waste his time looking for him. But he did go looking for the son who was lost... And cut off the one who betrayed him..

It's all the same thing. Contingent on you.

Nowhere does it say that the Father "cut off" anybody on purpose. He did NOT kick out the younger son. All he did was giving the little brother a taste of what he wanted, that's the same message in Romans 1 - God giving you up to your own desires.

The one, Judas who betrayed Yeshua had NEVER abided him in the first place, he was NEVER saved. When Yeshua rebuked him for his protest against Mary annointing Yeshua's feet with her fragrance, that was the final straw that triggered his betrayal.

 

[KingJ]

It is pointless Jonathan, if you do not believe the basic things that have been shared in detail, by many members, you will believe what you want to believe on everything else.

13 pages @ 20 posts per page and the wheel keeps turning round and round

When everything goes round and round for so long it is sometimes best to draw a line.

I say it in love, you and @KingJ have minds set in concrete.

Shalom

If I read all the pages in this thread, I see the non-OSAS crowd being elusive to simple questions. Take this thread's OP as an example Question for non-OSAS believers.

It is not the end of the world if we don't agree. We both agree that continuing in sin unrepentant is evidence of eternal hell being en route.

There are some key scriptures and statements that I pray all the non-OSAS believers will meditate on.

Batch 1 - Fake Christians exist

1 Cor 5:11 Christians in attendance at church yet referred to by Paul as 'Brethren so called'.
Matt 7:23 Christians in attendance at church yet referred to by Jesus people 'He never knew'.
1 John 2:19 Christians in attendance at church yet referred to by Paul as 'not one of us'.

Batch 2 - No works required,

Works cannot be mentioned anywhere with 'salvation'. You auto lose the debate and prove to all that you are still 'stuck' in the OT. Many non-OSAS like to 'cloud' scripture alluding to 'works' as though it is not 'works'.

Eph 2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Isa 64:6 all our righteous acts are like filthy rags.

Batch 3 - God gives us faith to believe in Jesus being Lord

Many non-OSAS quote scripture speaking to 'faith' as though our ability to believe the unseen is seen carries weight with God. God gives us this faith.

Rom 12:3 with the faith God has distributed to each of you.
1 Cor 12:3 no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
Matt 16:16-17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven

Batch 4 - God keeps us saved

1 Cor 10:13 And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear.
1 Cor 1:8 He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Batch 5 - God is not a fool that can't judge our hearts.

God made no mistake removing demons from heaven and will make no mistake grafting demons into heaven.

Jer 17:9-12 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the Lord search the heart and examine the mind.
Num 23:19 God not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Job 12:13 With Him are wisdom and might.

Batch 6 - God is a righteous judge, He does not pervert justice

Sending a Christian who has served God for 50 years to eternal hell and one who has served God for 4 hours to eternal bliss, is the definition of a perversion of justice.

Job 34:12 God does not pervert justice.
Isa 61:8 For I, the Lord, love justice.

Summary:

The non-OSAS crowd seem to not understand depth of intent. Baking a girl you like a cake everyday for 100 years does not necessarily mean that you love her and will die for her.

It honestly seems to me that Non-OSAS believers do not properly understand what a saved born again Christian is. This thread explains that it is not merely those who put their foot in church and 'taste' Christianity that are saved. If it was, non-OSAS would be believable. What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

 

[joestue]

When Yeshua rebuked him for his protest against Mary annointing Yeshua's feet with her fragrance, that was the final straw that triggered his betrayal.

How do you know that?

 

[joestue]

Sending a Christian who has served God for 50 years to eternal hell and one who has served God for 4 hours to eternal bliss, is the definition of a perversion of justice.

Well I have never made any claim even close to that.

Usually the non osas crowd isn't concerned about the faithful but rather those who were born again, but turned away for decades.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

How do you know that?

One word - timing. Soon after that in the passion week, he sold out Yeshua and led the soldiers to arrest him. Again, you don't even know the basics.

 

[joestue]

One word - timing. Soon after that in the passion week, he sold out Yeshua and led the soldiers to arrest him. Again, you don't even know the basics.

I do not make inferences as you do

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I do not make inferences as you do

That's not "inference", that's a simple fact. Luke 22:3 says Satan entered him.

 

[Brother-Paul]

The work God sent him to do was finished.

And it had nearly nothing to do with you. Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel at the time. (if you really want to go by what is written).

Amen \o/

 

[Brad Huber]

Nowhere does it say that the Father "cut off" anybody on purpose. He did NOT kick out the younger son. All he did was giving the little brother a taste of what he wanted, that's the same message in Romans 1 - God giving you up to your own desires.

The one, Judas who betrayed Yeshua had NEVER abided him in the first place, he was NEVER saved. When Yeshua rebuked him for his protest against Mary annointing Yeshua's feet with her fragrance, that was the final straw that triggered his betrayal.

And how can you betray unless he was "one of them"?

 

[B-A-C]

And how can you betray unless he was "one of them"?

Matt 19:28; And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

I have often wondered... who are the twelve here, who will sit on twelve thrones??

Luke 22:28; "You are those who have stood by Me in My trials;
Luke 22:29; and just as My Father has granted Me a kingdom, I grant you
Luke 22:30; that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

=======================================

At one point it would seem Matthias was one of the "twelve".

Acts 6:2; So the twelve summoned the congregation of the disciples and said, "It is not desirable for us to neglect the word of God in order to serve tables.

Who are "the twelve" here. Judas is dead. Paul/Saul wasn't converted yet here.

Rev 21:14; And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Now I had "assumed" that Paul's name was one of the twelve here, and Judas wasn't on the foundation stones, however....

Acts 14:14; But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their robes and rushed out into the crowd, crying out

Barnabas is also called an Apostle.

 

[B-A-C]

1Jn 2:19; They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

I often see this verse used in conjunction with...

John 6:66; As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
John 6:67; So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?"

Virtually all scholars believe these to be the 70 mentioned in Luke 10.

Luke 10:1; Now after this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them in pairs ahead of Him to every city and place where He Himself was going to come.

Luke 10:17; The seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name."
Luke 10:20; "Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven."

If this is true, then their names were written in the Book of Life, at least for a little while. However...

Rev 3:5; 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Just because your name is in the Book of Life doesn't mean it can't be erased.

Exod 32:33; The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.
Psa 69:28; May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Yeah, you keep lecturing on me, we must abide in him, we must abide in him, how about you putting your feet in a disciple’s feet AT THAY MOMENT?

I do not lecture to you Jonathan, I am quoting a point you are missing, you say that is what you are doing in reply to me. You call it lecturing, Jonathan; I call it a discussion, replying to a comment.

Think about Peter, the most outspoken disciple- “Even if all are made to stumble because of you, I will never stumble!” “Even if I have to die with You, I will never deny you!” (Matt. 26:33, 35) Then what happened? While Yeshua was being tried by the Sanhedrin, all it took was a little girl to call out Peter, and he denied Yeshua three times.

I am thinking about Peter, I see no difference to what I have previously said. Peter was abiding in Jesus, He loved Jesus, the fact that he denied Jesus thrice doesn't change the fact he still loved Jesus. It appears you have a mind set, it appears you look too deep for what is on the surface. Unless we become like little children this is what happens

Shared in love

 

[Brother-Paul]

You’re taking an eisegetical approach of developing a doctrine of man around one small portion of the Scripture, and as a result you’re stuck in your own rabbit hole, you fail to see the forest for the tree. This is like most Christians who start from John 1:1 instead of Genesis 1:1 and end up getting the wrong “word”, and thus a wrong Jesus.

Listen to Jesus, all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to him.

This 'one small portion of scripture' you refer to, was so 'important'. Jesus had been going through the farewell discourse, as we know, He was preparing His disciples to be without Him, we note, this scripture was mid-way through, it is an important message. Abide in me, He says, so that I can abide in you, the order is essential.

Jesus gave them a picture, it was something He was excellent at, He knew that we remember things better, if we can visualise them in our mind, and the picture he gave was one we should always remember.


1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me, you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.
10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
11 “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full
John 15:1–11 (NKJV)

The key word is ABIDE
Jesus tells us the benefit of ABIDING in HIM
Jesus tells the believer we MUST 'ABIDE in HIM'
Jesus tells us, IF we KEEP HIS COMMANDS we WILL 'ABIDE in His Love'

If we do not KEEP HIS COMMANDS we are sacrificing our Salvation, the branch that was grafted in starts by withering, the Father does not cut us out straight away, no no, He doesn't want any to be lost!

If we do not OBEY HIS COMMANDS, we are falling back into sin and the sins of the world.

We are only in His Love if our Love is in Him. Righteous and sin do not mix, they are opposites. That is why we are told to 'Practice Righteousness'!

 

[Brother-Paul]

The vine and the branches, the abiding or not abiding, in His love or not in His love, hearts grown cold.

At anytime from Jesus message to His disciples to His Coming again the message applies.

ABIDE IN HIM, so HE can ABIDE IN us.

BEAR FRUIT for the Father. If we fail to bear fruit it is because we are 'tempted' back into sin. Jesus warned us clearly of the consequences.


1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

Unrighteousness is the reason, and there are many roads to it.​

There will be a falling away, a removal of withering branches, from Penticost to Christ's return.

The Father tends to the Vine to make it bear fruit, by pruning to create more fruit, or by CASTING OUT the withered branches.

There will be a falling away, there will be branches cut out of the vine, collected and burnt! And it is down to temptation to sin, unrighteousness, choosing sin over righteousness, choosing the ways of the sinful world over the Righteous and loving God. All Jesus wants is for us to Abide in Him so that He can abide in us, forever.

God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness​

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,
30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;
32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

John 15:4
Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Trust me, friend, I do worry about a lot of things and other people around me because I care, but I've NEVER, EVER worried about my salvation through the blood of Christ ever since I surrendered my life to Yeshua because I believe ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED. Everthing is falling apart in this chaotic world, that only strengthened my faith in him. The darker the backround, the brighter the light.

Why would I trust you Jonathan, my Trust is in the Lord.

Yes, without Jesus we can do nothing, that's the word of Yeshua, I agree 100%.

PTL \o/

But tell me, HOW can we abide in him - in his ABSENCE?

You mean you do not know? Yet you preach, 'once saved always saved', which is not in the scriptures?

Jesus is not absent, my friend, read the scriptures. SO LONG as we ABIDE in Him, believe in Him with all our heart, Trust in Him with all our heart, submit to Him in FAITH, the Holy Spirit connects with my spirit, in my heart and soul, we have communion together, it is only when his spirit joins our spirit, when we are born again from above, that the abiding in His love, as He abides in the Fathers love that our journey to Eternal Life begins. But we must remain in Him, if we don't our grafted in branch will lose the connection with the Holy Spirit, the Holy sap will reduce, [God gives us time when falling away to return], He prunes the branch with the best intentions, He doesn't want any to be lost. But the more we fall away, the more we fall into sin, the colder our heart gets, the branch withers until it has to be cut out of the vine. Who is to blame? Only the one who failed to bear fruit for the Father, because they failed to abide in the one who died for their sins.