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Non-OSAS belief - undermines the cross

Matt 13:41; "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,

Just because you're "in the kingdom", doesn't mean you can't be removed. Jesus will remove "out of His kingdom" those who continue to sin ( commit lawlessness ).

Psa 69:28; May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.
Rev 3:5; 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Exod 32:33; The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

Just because your name was in the Book of Life doesn't mean you can't be erased or blotted out.
 
We can't bear any fruit at all without Jesus. But even Jesus helping you, there is no guaranatee you will bear fruit.
Hard road, stony soil and thorny soil are natural conditions, that’s why in any agricultural practice, the soil must be tilled. Those conditions are not destinies, but initial reactions. Yeshua never took a Calvinist position and rendered those statuses as permanent. In fact, these reactions were manifested in the audience of Paul’s sermon at Athens:

“When they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, “we will hear you again on this matter.” So Paul departed from among them. However, some men joined him and believed.” (Acts 7:32-34)

Bearing fruit or not, however, is NOT a salvation issue. Those who fail to bear fruit will lose their REWARD, but their salvation remains:

“If anyone‘a work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward; if anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, yet he himself will be saved, yet through fire.” (1 Cor. 3:14-15)

The final outcome of fruitlessness is “outer darkness, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matt. 25:30, 22:13) This is an idiom specifically referring to some people wandering on the street at night, while others celebrating in a house. That is not hell, as most people assume, but it’s worse than hell, because down in hell you have no idea of this party, never seen it and never heard of it; while in this “outer darkness”, you once had the opportunity to join in, but you missed it, so now you can only watch others rejoicing in the house while you are cast out on the street having nothing.
 
Keeping to the NT - Falling away
Falling away is bound to happen. Yeshua predicted it in John 16:32 in the same Farewell Discourse: “Indeed the hour is coming, yes, has now come, that you will be scattered, each to his own, and will leave me alone.” This was fulfilled very soon when Yeshua was arrested: “Then all the disciples forsook Him and fled.” (Matt. 26:56). Tell me, did they all lose their salvation? Falling away happens, it happens to all of us as a test of our faith, and those who truly abide in him will pass the test and return to the flock.
 
Jesus had authority and power to forgive sin before the cross. So getting that power can't be the reason God told him to allow men to kill him on a cross.
Now Jesus said after the cross.. all power in heaven and on earth has been given to me"
Given that he could forgive sin before, what power did he gain after?

Thanks for bringing up these matters, they are worthy of a discussion elsewhere, you're the first person I have met to bring up this problem with God's wrath poured out on his son... Which as you point out doesn't make any sense. (Seems no one dare bring this up in churches, as it's just accepted as true.
There are a lot of doctrines that don't make sense but are accepted as true. This one may be the worst. It's a product of the Reformation. That's another reason I believe the Reformers didn't have a good grasp of Scripture. People seem to forget that they came out of the Catholic Church. The held the same doctrines that the Catholics held. Yeah, sure, they changed a few, but there were quite a few that they didn't change that were wrong. They just continued on with these erroneous doctrines. The sad part is, the ones they changed to, were wrong also. I think the main reason these issues aren't addressed is because people see them but don't know what to do with them. Take this doctrine, Penal Atonement, It's not the original teaching on the atonement. However, I'd bet if you took a survey, few if any would know that. Christians aren't taught church history and not many take it upon themselves to study it. The original teaching on the Atonement was what is known as the Ransom theory. This is the doctrine I hold to. This model has Jesus as a ransom to buy back mankind for the Father. In this model Jesus offers Himself as a ransom to redeem mankind from Satan. In this model the Father suffers a great loss. Around 1100 AD. a Catholic theologian named Anselm of Canterbury decided this wasn't good enough and developed what is known as the Satisfaction Model. Under this model man sinned and the sin was so great that man was unable to atone for his sin. Anselm theorized that only God could atone for this sin. In this model Jesus' death satisfied the requirements to atone for man's sin. Then came the Reformers. They grew up with this Satisfaction model. They then tweaked it into what became known as the Penal Model, the idea that Jesus' death satisfied the wrath of God. This is what most Christians are taught today, and many have no idea that there even is another model. Apart from the issues I've already raised about this doctrine there is one problem with it that I believe may be even worse. I would ask those who hold the doctrine, how is this any different than the pagans? The pagans practiced human sacrifices to appease the wrath of their gods. How is Christ's human sacrifice to appease the wrath of God any different? It's not.
 
Just because your name was in the Book of Life doesn't mean you can't be erased or blotted out.
That book is the “book of the living”, those being blotted out died prematurely as their punishment. That’s the consequence of sin - in this mortal life. This is a rebuttal to the “eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die” hedonistic philosophy, because sin will make us suffer and cut our lives short. When you associate this with salvation, you’re forming a doctrine that wasn’t in those verses.
 
There's no such issue because I've told you before, the bible is NOT one book, there's no circular reasoning going round and round to no end. The issue is you making up a none issue based on a false presupposition that the bible is one book reifying itself by its own claims.
Again, you've gone off topic. I said nothing about the bible being one book or multiple books. That was you. You spoke of Scripture interpreting Scripture. That is the fallacy of reification. Scripture cannot interpret anything.
 
I answered in another post, the Bible is true and trustworthy because its being fulfilled in reality, validated by numerous extrabiblical sources. Just because some translations maybe tampered with does mean the original words are not inspired by God. If we can’t agree on that the authority and infallibility of the Bible, then there’s nothing to debate about, it’s just your unbelief, and no amount of information can change that.
Again, off topic. Reification is a fallacy.
 
That's where presuppositions come in.
You know, it’s easy to draw up a doctrine or two from the Scripture, but it’s hard to know the real Yeshua, to empathize with the disciples and to see ourselves in them through the same Scripture.
 
Again, off topic. Reification is a fallacy.
Again, you've gone off topic. I said nothing about the bible being one book or multiple books. That was you. You spoke of Scripture interpreting Scripture. That is the fallacy of reification. Scripture cannot interpret anything.
It is on topic because reification only applies when it’s one book from one source, and the Bible is NOT.
 
The pagans practiced human sacrifices to appease the wrath of their gods. How is Christ's human sacrifice to appease the wrath of God any different? It's not.
It’s different because it was God’s plan from the beginning, precisely prophesied in Isaiah 53 and interpreted in Hebrew 9:16-10:25. “Penal atonement” or “substitutionary atonement” is just a fancy term to call it. But none of that matters to you, does it, because you don’t believe the Scripture interprets itself. Then all I can do is pray that Yeshua can help your unbelief.
 
The issue is NOT 'The Word', it is interpretation of some parts of The Word, and these disagreements have rumbled on for up to 2000 years, we should respect peoples views but we don't have to accept a persons views
A solid interpretation of a portion based off of an exegetical approach is consistent throughout the whole Bible, a shaky interpretation of a portion based off of an eisegetical approach is inconsistent as it’s easily rebuked by other portions.

You appear to be disregarding what Jesus says in John 15, He is The Word, it is He who is speaking, He has all authority, He is explaining these things in His last few days so that we understand what He is saying. The Truth is in the Word and Jesus is, Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only-begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
You’re the one who’s really disregarding John 15 by taking it out of context. You cannot relate to those disciples who were actually hearing this message at the moment. You fail to take the imminent trial and crucifixion into consideration. You forget that this is not in the middle of his ministry where John 15 could be told to keep them on track or they would lose their salvation, but this is the LAST lesson at the END of his ministry.
 
Even with Jesus watering and fertilizing you, some trees refuse to bear fruit.
But also as Luke 8:14 above says, trees start to bear fruit, but stop maturing along the way. They never bear mature fruit.
That fig tree is referring to Israel, over three years of ministry those Jews still rejected Yeshua, therefore it withers. But at the end time, it will bud again, as told in the fig tree parable. Again, taking it out of context to support your own doctrine.
 
It is on topic because reification only applies when it’s one book from one source, and the Bible is NOT.
Not it not. Scripture cannot interpret Scripture. Scripture is not alive. It can't think, it can't reason, thus it can interpret.
 
Not it not. Scripture cannot interpret Scripture. Scripture is not alive. It can't think, it can't reason, thus it can interpret.
Seriously, man? Scripture is not alive to you despite what is said in Heb. 4:12? If that’s what you think, then why wasting your time to discuss this irrelevant ancient myth around here? Word of God is NOT word of man. Sola Scriptura, through and through, brother. Take it or leave it.
 
It’s different because it was God’s plan from the beginning, precisely prophesied in Isaiah 53 and interpreted in Hebrew 9:16-10:25. “Penal atonement” or “substitutionary atonement” is just a fancy term to call it. But none of that matters to you, does it, because you don’t believe the Scripture interprets itself. Then all I can do is pray that Yeshua can help your unbelief.
No, it's not different. Your statement here is just one-way Christians try to sidestep the obvious problems with the doctrine. Even if it was God's plan, which it was not, it would still be the same as the pagans. Rather than try to justify a doctrine that impugns God's character, why not do some research and find out the truth. As I said before that doctrine would make God a liar and one who killed his own Son just to satisfy Himself. Firstly, why would you believe in salvation if God lies? You couldn't "know" as the Scriptures say, the best you could hope for is that the promise of Salvation is not a lie. Not only that but the subject at hand would be moot. No one could claim OSAS if God lied.

I realize many have never thought through many of these doctrines and haven't seen the problems with them. However, I'm amazed at how those how have then try to justify them. I was excited when I learned that Penal Atonement was wrong. I was excited that I didn't have to accept this horrible portrayal of God. It makes me wonder how the Reformers who claimed to love God could devise such a horrible portrayal of Him. It makes me wonder if they really did love Him or if they, just like the Catholic church before them, were just doing it so they could control the masses.

My friend, if you love God as you say you do, I would highly encourage you to research the Ransom theory. A theory where God as a loving Father, allows His Son to give Himself as a Ransom to buy back that which was taken by force, kidnapped, and redeem it, man, to Him. A theory that holds that Jesus willingly gave up His life to set man free from his kidnapper, the one who held him hostage. This is the original Theory of the Atonement, not a theory of human sacrifice to appease an angry God.

Irenaeus, was a student of Polycarp who was a student of the Apostle John. Irenaeus didn't really have to interpret much as Polycarp taught him what the apostle John had taught Polycarp. This is what Irenaeus writes in his 5th book of Against Heresies.

1. FOR in no other way could we have learned the things of God, unless our Master, existing as the Word, had become man. For no other being had the power of revealing to us the things of the Father, except His own proper Word. For what other person “knew the mind of the Lord,” or who else “has become His counsellor?” Again, we could have learned in no other way than by seeing our Teacher, and hearing His voice with our own ears, that, having become imitators of His works as well as doers of His words, we may have communion with Him, receiving increase from the perfect One, and from Him who is prior to all creation. We—who were but lately created by the only best and good Being, by Him also who has the gift of immortality, having been formed after His likeness (predestinated, according to the prescience of the Father, that we, who had as yet no existence, might come into being), and made the first-fruits of creation—have received, in the times known beforehand, [the blessings of salvation] according to the ministration of the Word, who is perfect in all things, as the mighty Word, and very man, who, redeeming us by His own blood in a manner consonant to reason, gave Himself as a redemption for those who had been led into captivity. And since the apostasy tyrannized over us unjustly, and, though we were by nature the property of the omnipotent God, alienated us contrary to nature, rendering us its own disciples, the Word of God, powerful in all things, and not defective with regard to His own justice, did righteously turn against that apostasy, and redeem from it His own property, not by violent means, as the [apostasy] had obtained dominion over us at the beginning, when it insatiably snatched away what was not its own, but by means of persuasion, as became a God of counsel, who does not use violent means to obtain what He desires; so that neither should justice be infringed upon, nor the ancient handiwork of God go to destruction. Since the Lord thus has redeemed us through His own blood, giving His soul for our souls, and His flesh for our flesh,2 and has also poured out the Spirit of the Father for the union and communion of God and man, imparting indeed God to men by means of the Spirit, and, on the other hand, attaching man to God by His own incarnation, and bestowing upon us at His coming immortality durably and truly, by means of communion with God,—all the doctrines of the heretics fall to ruin.

Irenaeus of Lyons, “Irenæus against Heresies,” in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 526–527.
 
Seriously, man? Scripture is not alive to you despite what is said in Heb. 4:12? If that’s what you think, then why wasting your time to discuss this irrelevant ancient myth around here? Word of God is NOT word of man. Sola Scriptura, through and through, brother. Take it or leave it.
Context my friend, context. Read the rest of the passage.

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Heb 4:12–13.

"His sight". The word of God here is Jesus, not the Bible.

I would ask you; do you have conversations with your Bible? If so, I have a bunch of questions I'd love answers to. If not then Scripture can't interpret Scripture, thus proving the claim is a fallacy.
 
I would ask you; do you have conversations with your Bible? If so, I have a bunch of questions I'd love answers to. If not then Scripture can't interpret Scripture, thus proving the claim is a fallacy.
I explained it to you how it works, how different portions of the Bible are connected in my previous posts. If you have a biblical question on something, you can always find an answer within the context of the Bible instead of relying on some kind of expert or authority. “SEEK and you shall find.” And I told you before that it takes effort to seek, count that as a “conversation” if you like. Otherwise, it’s your unbelief.
 
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