Non-OSAS belief - undermines the cross

[joestue]

On a side note, I would like to point out an inconsistency. in another thread you pointed out that you hold to Penal Atonement. If you are worried here about how you believe Non OSAS portrays God, why aren't you worried about how Penal Atonement portrays God? The bible says that God will forgive sins. Penal Atonement holds that God requires justice and that sin must be "paid" for. A debt paid is not forgiven. It further holds that God had His own Son die on the cross to satisfy His wrath. Personally, I find that reprehensible. Under this doctrine God promises to forgive sins, but in reality doesn't. Instead, He requires the death of HIs own Son to satisfy His wrath and "Pay" the price for sinners. How does that doctrine portray God? First a liar, sins aren't forgiven, they're paid for. Then killing His own Son. Let me ask you this, if there was a guy on the news who murdered his son because his daughter misbehaved, would expect him to be honorable to his neighbor? If God would lie and kill His own Son simply to satisfy His wrath, why would you expect Him to honor anyone's salvation?

Jesus had authority and power to forgive sin before the cross. So getting that power can't be the reason God told him to allow men to kill him on a cross.
Now Jesus said after the cross.. all power in heaven and on earth has been given to me"
Given that he could forgive sin before, what power did he gain after?

Thanks for bringing up these matters, they are worthy of a discussion elsewhere, you're the first person I have met to bring up this problem with God's wrath poured out on his son... Which as you point out doesn't make any sense. (Seems no one dare bring this up in churches, as it's just accepted as true.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

The issue is the fallacy of reification. But, you keep jumping from thing to another without addressing the issues.

There's no such issue because I've told you before, the bible is NOT one book, there's no circular reasoning going round and round to no end. The issue is you making up a none issue based on a false presupposition that the bible is one book reifying itself by its own claims.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Agreed brother and most important Pentecost was the birth of the ekkleia.

Agreed, I cannot wait Jonathan, thank God the time will be cut short

That is true, He was preparing His disciples for this, it is to our advantage

Totally agree Jonathan, I am wondering what you are reading my friend. Oh yes, it was; is OSAS true or false? You say true, I say false. You say that the reason you put forward proves it, I and many others totally disagree. I/we have provided scripture to prove it, you do not want to accept it. So there we are Jonathan, and you know what, OSAS or not a doesn't make one little difference.

Do you? If you truly agree, you wouldn't have said that "he is not absent". Any present Jesus is a man made golden calf, only the Holy Spirit can lead you to the real Lord and Savior characterized in that previous post.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

This seems to be the answer you have when people do not agree with what you believe Jonathan.

Oh really? You're the one who has his head wrapped around this one particular portion of Scripture in John 15, and you keep lecturing on me with it, so I challenge you to go a little deeper - What was timing of this grapevine analogy? In what circumstance was it given? To whom was Yeshua addressing? What was the intention of it? How can we abide in him? And most importantly, in WHICH Yeshua we must abide? 'cause there're false prophets rising in His name, exactly as he warned in Matt. 24:24, has that every come across your mind? You dismissed all of these important questions that set the tone of a valid interpretation, all you have done was throwing your doctrine and your dictionary at my head. You don't even bother to explore these questions, and you blame me for disagreeing with you?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I say this in love my friend, you come over as your reasoning is right, all the time, your mindset is set in concrete, that is very dangerous.

My mindset is not concrete on scripture interpretations, I'm open to hear any esoteric insight or any historic background, which you provided none. My mindset is concrete on my FAITH in the power and validity of God's salvation purchased by the blood of Christ. If yours is not, you should ask yourself why.

Let us note:
- All authority in heaven and on earth was given to Jesus
- It is important to listen to His every word. He is The Word.
- He gave us a New Covenant, a covenant of love, but at the same time we must never be, love blind, and miss the point, vengeance is His, we should fear the Wrath of God.
- Jesus turned His back on the Jews and their Temple on Tuesday of Holy Week, another item in His last week of preparations
- He prophesied the Temple would be flattened to the ground, it was 30-40 years later.
- His Church, was born by the Spirit from above, started at Pentecost.
- His Church, the ekklesia, ONLY includes the born again from above souls, the ones who were truly born again from above when The Holy Spirit connected with our Spirit.
- His Church is Spiritual, we worship in Spirit and Truth, born again souls are spiritual bricks in His church, the spiritual body of which He is Head of.

You say you have heard it all, I cannot help but wonder whom you knock around with Jonathan, don't tar me with your wicked brush, you haven't got a clue about me.

Go in peace

Israelites were the first chosen people out of Abraham, they formally became a nation in the wilderness by receiving the law from Moses, which was their constitution. And among them, the tribe of Judah the preserved the messianich bloodline. However, by their disregarding of the law and rejecting Yeshua, God's spirit went to the NATIONS, which was what the Pentecost was really about, and Jews will become the LAST to receive Yeshua, as Yeshua himself lamented in Matt. 23:37-39. Yeshua mentioned a couple of times that "the first shall become last, and the last shall become first," and later Paul echoed that "For I am not ashamed of the gospel ... for the Jew FIRST and also for the Greek." Pentecost fulfilled this conclusion, as the NATIONS became the first being baptized by the spirit, while the Jews over two thousand years have been blinded until the messianic movement in recent years.

So yes, God's church was born of the spirit like Yeshua was, but no, it can NOT be "spiritualized" as you did in your head. God's church is consisted of real people, and wherever they are, God's word is preached and God's work is done. Think locally and act locally - with your LOCAL "ekklasia", follow the Spirit wherever He leads, is how you abide, and you don't get it because your doctrine is disconnected from reality.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

If they are not born again from above, they are not His!

There are many scriptures warning of falling away, coming off the narrow road, including being cast out of the vine due to withering and not bearing fruit, they all carry the same message, you can lose your salvation if you fall back into the world of sinning.

Salvation is NOT a ticket to heaven, I said it over and over again that it's just the first step on the narrow path of righteousness, the rest of that journey is called SANTIFICATION. If you insist that you never sin by "falling back into the world of sinning", then you deceive yourself, and the truth is not in you, Ephesians 6:12. As long as we live in this sinful world, there's no such vacuum without sin, what matters is that a true born again Christian is empowered by the Holy Spirit to OVERCOME sin by following the shepherd's voice and returning to the narrow path.

As we know Jesus spoke in parables, and many of them, they all carry a similar message, they point us to heaven, but include warnings also, we who are born again from above. MUST, abide in Him for Him to abide in us. If we are not grafted into the vine, we are not connected to the goodness that comes from the vine. If we are not abiding in Jesus, He cannot abide in us. We have no one tom blame but ourselves.

John 15, Jesus Words are very clear, He is The Word, He has the authority, He was preparing His disciples for when He goes to the Father. Abide in me, so that I can abide in you, if you do not bear fruit you will wither, if you continue to wither the branch will be good for nothing, it will be cut off and burnt. As Jesus says, without me, you can do nothing. You will be spiritually dead!

Jesus was clearly speaking in, John 15, to those who ARE HIS.

Then once again, I ask you this question - abide in WHICH Jesus? Since you said it yourself that "He goes to the Father", then why is he not absent? As long as you proclaim "he's not absent", I don't think the Jesus you have in your mind is the one set up in the OT, spefically in Isaiah 53. Maybe you are like joestue who conflates Yeshua and the Holy Spirit, that's a huge mistake. Yeshua is in heaven, and the Holy Spirit points us to him - other than any counterfeit of him.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

John 15:1-17 is important based on the discussion regarding your claim OSAS, no cherry picking here, let scripture speak, the reason it is mentioned is because...
- The Word is what makes a believer clean
- The Word is Jesus who has all authority, and it is Jesus who is speaking here
- I include it as it confirms, OSAS is false teaching, Jesus makes it clear that a saved soul CAN be 'CAST OUT' from the vine.
- The other reason is that you quote many other things and do not want to accept what Jesus is actually saying

Let scripture speak, and the scripture speaks against your doctrine:

"A slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever." John 8:35
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." John 10:27-28
"What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?" Luke 15:4
"For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away." Matt. 25:29

Yeshua makes it clear that a saved soul can NOT be cast out, those who can be cast out are NOT saved in the first place, they just play religion, and Yeshua NEVER KNEW THEM.

Jesus said to His disciples, as you kindly quote, 'you are Already Clean', This message is in the second section of this text see below.

It is by grace through faith in Christ that we are cleansed.
It is by believing the Word of God that we are washed.

That is inaccurate. It is by the blood of Christ we are cleansed and washed (Rev. 7:14), and it is by the Spirit do we abide in him (Zech. 4:6, John 16:13).

John 15:1-11 - Part 1 - The Relationship of Believers to Christ

John 15:3 (NKJV)
You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.


John 15:11-17 - Part 2 - The Relationship of Believers to Each Other

John 15:15 (NKJV)
No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you

NOTE: John 15:5-6 (NKJV) is in Part 1 - The Relationship of Believers to Christ
NOTE ALSO: These are Jesus' words, Words from the Word, not mine!
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is CAST OUT as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

We are to encourage one another in Christ Jesus, but we are each responsible for our own sins, we cannot be responsible for, Joe Blogs, having an affair and committing adultery, can we? But if we know we are to talk with the person in love, explain to them what they are doing in God's eyes, how they are returning to sin and the consequences of sin.

Yes, the rule of thumb is stated in Luke 12:48 - "to him much is given, much is required." I've never stated or implied that salvation is a license to sin as many others have unfortunately bought into. The relationship of believers to Christ is stated in John 15:1-3 - the Father PRUNES us to bear more fruit. Those being cast out, again, are the Judas element who has NEVER abided.

God does not cut them out of the vine straight away, no no, He doesn't want any to be lost. First the fruit reduces, then the fruit stops, then the branch withers, there is plenty of time for the person to receive loving help and advice, should they listen.

That's your false doctrine and your lack of faith in Him, don't use that as evidence and pin it on me. The branches that bear fruit never wither, the branches that wither never bear fruit, that's the message of John 15:1-8, backed by numerous other Scripture that I referenced. You've got nothing else but your misinterpretation of this one portion of Scripture.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Do you? If you truly agree, you wouldn't have said that "he is not absent". Any present Jesus is a man made golden calf, only the Holy Spirit can lead you to the real Lord and Savior characterized in that previous post.

In reply to Post #383
Please read the messages I agreed to and the other I commented on.

Jesus is at the right hand of God the Father, He is interceding our prayers for us, He remains seated at the right hand of the Father, until the Father says to Him, 'Son go get your Bride'

But, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Jesus abides in the heart of all who are Truly Born-Again from above. Those who have repented, been baptised, proclaimed their faith, submitted their all to God through His Son, Jesus Christ the Messiah, Yeshua ha Mashiach.

So brother, Jesus, who is Spirit, is currently seated at the right hand of God the Father, who is also Spirit.

And when a person is born again from above, our Spirits unite, allowing us to 'Abide in Him' and for 'Him to Abide in us'. Without Him we are nothing, without Him we are spiritually dead.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Oh really? You're the one who has his head wrapped around this one particular portion of Scripture in John 15, and you keep lecturing on me with it, so I challenge you to go a little deeper - What was timing of this grapevine analogy? In what circumstance was it given? To whom was Yeshua addressing? What was the intention of it? How can we abide in him? And most importantly, in WHICH Yeshua we must abide? 'cause there're false prophets rising in His name, exactly as he warned in Matt. 24:24, has that every come across your mind? You dismissed all of these important questions that set the tone of a valid interpretation, all you have done was throwing your doctrine and your dictionary at my head. You don't even bother to explore these questions, and you blame me for disagreeing with you?

I have considered the wider items you and, @KingJ have suggesting, but taking them into consideration does not mean I agree with you. I don't agree and have explained to you scriptures you don't want to consider or accept. So we disagree my friend, I respect your views, I listen and pray because I know the Holy Spirit will at times surprise us, if we are open to allow Him to do so.

Shalom

 

[Brother-Paul]

John 8:35. Me and joestue have had a debate on that. See for it and go figure.

@joestue

Interesting reply Jonathan

Luke 14:11

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

In reply to Post #383
Please read the messages I agreed to and the other I commented on.

Jesus is at the right hand of God the Father, He is interceding our prayers for us, He remains seated at the right hand of the Father, until the Father says to Him, 'Son go get your Bride'

But, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Jesus abides in the heart of all who are Truly Born-Again from above. Those who have repented, been baptised, proclaimed their faith, submitted their all to God through His Son, Jesus Christ the Messiah, Yeshua ha Mashiach.

So brother, Jesus, who is Spirit, is currently seated at the right hand of God the Father, who is also Spirit.

And when a person is born again from above, our Spirits unite, allowing us to 'Abide in Him' and for 'Him to Abide in us'. Without Him we are nothing, without Him we are spiritually dead.

I just pointed out that it is dangerous to conflate Yeshua himself with the Holy Spirit, because as I said, there are many false versions of Him, that’s a unique challenge we must face in this day of age. There’re the self help guru Jesus, social justice warrior Jesus, hippie Jesus, new age Jesus, Catholic Jesus, even Muslim Jesus. In fact, the disciples themselves were drowned in their own expectation of a conqueror Jesus, did you know that? When He was heralded by the crowd as He entered into Jerusalem, when they saw them waving palm branches yelling Hosanna, they were convinced that the King had finally arrived to liberate them from the Romans and restore the kingdom, nobody could imagine that He was about to crucified like a criminal, that’s why they were so shocked at the message of this Farewell Discourse that He was about to depart. You can’t just keep lecturing on me and everybody else, “abide in Him,” “abide in Him” without knowing the real Yeshua to abide in and ignoring that sentiment of making an idol with his name on it. At the end, the Antichrist will rise as the counterfeit Yeshua, and only the Holy Spirit can point you to the real Yeshua. Every Christian must ask themselves the same question that Yeshua asked Simon Peter: “who do YOU say that I am?” Your answer will indicate which Yeshua you’re really abiding in.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Israelites were the first chosen people out of Abraham, they formally became a nation in the wilderness by receiving the law from Moses, which was their constitution. And among them, the tribe of Judah the preserved the messianich bloodline. However, by their disregarding of the law and rejecting Yeshua, God's spirit went to the NATIONS, which was what the Pentecost was really about, and Jews will become the LAST to receive Yeshua, as Yeshua himself lamented in Matt. 23:37-39.

We agree Jonathan

Yeshua mentioned a couple of times that "the first shall become last, and the last shall become first," and later Paul echoed that "For I am not ashamed of the gospel ... for the Jew FIRST and also for the Greek." Pentecost fulfilled this conclusion, as the NATIONS became the first being baptized by the spirit, while the Jews over two thousand years have been blinded until the messianic movement in recent years.

The day of Pentecost was the day the ekklesia was born, all who received the Holy Spirit were born again, those who had received the spirit from above were new creations, they were the church

So yes, God's church was born of the spirit like Yeshua was, but no, it can NOT be "spiritualized" as you did in your head. God's church is consisted of real people, and wherever they are, God's word is preached and God's work is done. Think locally and act locally - with your LOCAL "ekklasia", follow the Spirit wherever He leads, is how you abide, and you don't get it because your doctrine is disconnected from reality.

Following on from the last message above, no one is spiritualising as you put it. If you miss the point in a statement, and it is easy when we are not face to face, you seem to have an attitude and make comments like the one above 'as you did in your head'. Now you are missing the point Jonathan, now I accept I may not have explained it sufficiently, so let me clarify.

The church IS 'Real people', but it is Real people who have the spirit of God in them, those who have as stated previously, repented, been baptised, proclaimed their faith and given their lives to God through Jesus. Real people Jonathan, real people repented, baptised, proclaimed, submitted and are willing to follow and obey Jesus.

Real people, who do not abide in Christ so Her can abide in them, those whose spirit has connected with the Spirit of Christ from above, are the Church.
Real people, who have not been born again, are not the ekklesia.

The ekklesia is the congregation of two or three, or more, born again from above souls, they are Spiritual stones. They can be anywhere in the world, on land, in the air, on water or under the water. Local or otherwise, regardless of age, sex, colour, tongue, jew or gentile. I mentioned this in a reply to you previously in this thread.

As for your last part of your statement, I do not reply.

Posted in His Love

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I have considered the wider items you and, @KingJ have suggesting, but taking them into consideration does not mean I agree with you. I don't agree and have explained to you scriptures you don't want to consider or accept. So we disagree my friend, I respect your views, I listen and pray because I know the Holy Spirit will at times surprise us, if we are open to allow Him to do so.

Shalom

I don’t really have a different view regarding John 15:1-8, I just have a BROADER view rather than dissecting it up into bullet points and developing a doctrine out of it. You saying, “we must abide”, how does that play out in reality? If there comes a day you have to choose between your job and your faith, are you prepared for it and what would be your decision? Like, you’re forced to take vaccine or to use transgender pronounce, what would you do? That has already happened to a lot of our brothers and sisters in Christ. Oh, you think that’s a far stretch? No, that’s when rubber meets the road, that’s the litmus test to show whether you’re a man of your word. I know what my decision is, and I have prepared for it, even though we have had a lot of debate on this portion of the Scripture.

 

[Brother-Paul]

I just pointed out that it is dangerous to conflate Yeshua himself with the Holy Spirit, because as I said, there are many false versions of Him, that’s a unique challenge we must face in this day of age. There’re the self help guru Jesus, social justice warrior Jesus, hippie Jesus, new age Jesus, Catholic Jesus, even Muslim Jesus. In fact, the disciples themselves were drowned in their own expectation of a conqueror Jesus, did you know that?

Greeting Jonathan

Yes, of course I am aware of these things.

Why do you reply as if you are the only one that knows these things and others are idiots?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

The day of Pentecost was the day the ekklesia was born, all who received the Holy Spirit were born again, those who had received the spirit from above were new creations, they were the church

No, that’s the day the ekklasia was EXPANDED - into the nations. Israel wasn’t replaced by the gentile church, the the gentiles were adopted into Israel, also known as “Commonwealth of Israel”, Eph. 2:12. I’m correcting a big theological error you made. If you truly agree, you wouldn’t continue to insist that God’s ekklasia was only born on the Pentecost and never existed before that.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

The ekklesia is the congregation of two or three, or more, born again from above souls, they are Spiritual stones. They can be anywhere in the world, on land, in the air, on water or under the water. Local or otherwise, regardless of age, sex, colour, tongue, jew or gentile. I mentioned this in a reply to you previously in this thread.

Yes, a God’s ekklasia is global, his gospel is preached to all nations on earth, but have you ever met any of them in that “otherwise” category in real life? Beyond a face on the screen? You see, this is why we have to rise above dictionaries and doctrines, because only in that two or three local group can you make an impact, as for the rest of the ekklasia, how about we just pray for them and let the Lord take care of his sheep? “Be of the same mind toward one another, do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.” Rom 12:16

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Greeting Jonathan

Yes, of course I am aware of these things.

Why do you reply as if you are the only one that knows these things and others are idiots?

Because that’s a big concern, I’ve been there and I’ve seen it. No wonder five out of the seven churches in Revelation have gone astray, and among them, Thyatira was straight up worshiping false idols.

You see, John 15:7 for instance, “If you abide in me,” we’re reading the same verse, but our difference is, you only focus on the word “abide”, I go for the “you” and “I” in that CONTEXT in various aspects.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Let scripture speak, and the scripture speaks against your doctrine:

I do not have a doctrine Jonathan. The Word is Truth and Truth is in The Word.

The issue is NOT 'The Word', it is interpretation of some parts of The Word, and these disagreements have rumbled on for up to 2000 years, we should respect peoples views but we don't have to accept a persons views

"A slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever." John 8:35

https://biblia.com/bible/nlt/John 8.35

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." John 10:27-28

That is true Jonathan, these are abiding in Christ and He in them, they are following Him and not straying onto the path of worldly sins.
https://biblia.com/bible/nlt/John 10.27-28

"What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?" Luke 15:4

Three parables in Luke 15, bring out the joy of God when the lost sinner is found. The fact that the first two depict people who actively seek what is lost may well put emphasis on the truth that God does not wait passively for sinners to come to him, but actively seeks them out.

Regarding the Vine and the Branches, God doesn't want to 'cast out' withering branches, He prunes the branches, He seeks to have them bring forth more fruit, He doesn't discard branches not in fruit, He cleanses them with water, He removes lichen and anything that may restrict growth of the fruit, He adjusts the branches towards the light, He seeks to see them grow and bear fruit. The fact we are told He does not want any to perish confirms in itself some will, and they are the ones cast out. God seeks and does everything He can not to lose any.
https://biblia.com/bible/nlt/Luke 15.4

"For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away." Matt. 25:29

Yeshua makes it clear that a saved soul can NOT be cast out, those who can be cast out are NOT saved in the first place, they just play religion, and Yeshua NEVER KNEW THEM.

To everyone who has will be given more, God prunes the branches so that they may bear more fruit, and He received more Glory

You appear to be disregarding what Jesus says in John 15, He is The Word, it is He who is speaking, He has all authority, He is explaining these things in His last few days so that we understand what He is saying. The Truth is in the Word and Jesus is, Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only-begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Brother-Paul said:

God does not cut them out of the vine straight away, no no, He doesn't want any to be lost. First the fruit reduces, then the fruit stops, then the branch withers, there is plenty of time for the person to receive loving help and advice, should they listen.

That's your false doctrine and your lack of faith in Him, don't use that as evidence and pin it on me. The branches that bear fruit never wither, the branches that wither never bear fruit, that's the message of John 15:1-8, backed by numerous other Scripture that I referenced. You've got nothing else but your misinterpretation of this one portion of Scripture.

I do not have a doctrine, Jonathan, the Truth is in The Word, who is The Word, who is speaking in John 15, who has all authority given to Him?

You cannot speak of my Faith as I cannot (and do not speak) about yours.

Nobody is pinning anything on you, as you put it.

Keeping to the NT - Falling away

Hebrews 3:12
Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.

Matthew 24:10
At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.

1 Timothy 4:1
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons

2 Peter 3:17
You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness

Hebrews 10:38
But My righteous one shall live by faith;
And if he shrinks back, (withers) My soul has no pleasure in him.

 

[B-A-C]

The branches that bear fruit never wither,

Luke 8:11; "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
Luke 8:12; "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Luke 8:13; "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:14; "The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
Luke 8:15; "But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

The seed is the word of God. The soil is you (people).
Some people never get saved ( verse 12 )
Some people "believe for a while" and then fall away. ( verse 13 )
Some people start to bear fruit, but never bring it all the way to maturity. ( verse 14 )
Some people bear good fruit ( verse 15 )

The only person of the 4 here, that was never saved, was the first one in verse 12.
We can't bear any fruit at all without Jesus. But even Jesus helping you, there is no guaranatee you will bear fruit.

Luke 13:6; And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
Luke 13:7; "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
Luke 13:8; "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
Luke 13:9; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"

Even with Jesus watering and fertilizing you, some trees refuse to bear fruit.
But also as Luke 8:14 above says, trees start to bear fruit, but stop maturing along the way. They never bear mature fruit.