Non-OSAS belief - undermines the cross

[Jonathan_Gale]

You tempt me slightly here. I have thought about this.
Suppose I am saved. And I don't want to go to heaven. (My mom thinks outer darkness is for the disenfranchised Christians)

Where else would I go?

Did I lose my ticket or did I destroy it myself? Suppose I want to hang out in hell for a while to see what it's like.

None of this has anything to do with God expressing his offence at lots of folks across 4000 years.

Why not take this a step further and say everyone who ever once in their life seriously said "God forgive me".

They all going to heaven?. It would be nearly everyone on the planet.

Nobody goes to heaven, all go to the grave, waiting to be resurrected. All mentions of "kingdom of heaven" in the parables are referring to the millennial kingdom right here on EARTH. Yeshua himself didn't go to heaven immediately. He went down to the grave and rose on the third day. As far as you think of your salvation as a "ticket", you're already brainwashed by a false religion.

 

[joestue]

It's an analogy, for the sake of communication with someone who seems to have a different definition of the word.

Do you not know your sins are only forgiven if and when Jesus forgives them?

He is a person just like you and has his own free will. Just like you do. But he has all power and authority and is appointed judge over all mankind. And he literally told you to fear him.

Osas believers, in my experience, do not have much fear of the Lord.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

It's an analogy, for the sake of communication with someone who seems to have a different definition of the word.

Do you not know your sins are only forgiven if and when Jesus forgives them?

He is a person just like you and has his own free will. Just like you do. But he has all power and authority and is appointed judge over all mankind. And he literally told you to fear him.

Osas believers, in my experience, do not have much fear of the Lord.

All sins were forgiven on the cross, that's his ultimate atonement for the sin of all mankind. That is God's salvation. It's up to each individual to decide whether to accept this atonement or not, and the Holy Spirit points every single individual to that through various signs under various circumstances. The middle ground is getting narrower and narrower, the mission field is shrinking, eventually everyone has to make their decision. Those who blaspheme against Yeshua out of ignorance can be forgiven, those who blaspheme against the Holy Spirit can NOT be forgiven, because they have rejected the free gift of salvation and turned away from the only way to God, Mark 3:28-30.

 

[KingJ]

This is why we have all of this confusion. People just won't read the Scriptures in context. Paul stated specifically in the very passage that @KingJ quoted that it was the commands contained in ordinances. That is the Mosaic Law. People claiming it's this or that doesn't change that, it just makes them wrong. Luther took the passage out of context and thousands, if not millions, have bought into his error and do the very same thing. That's how we got all of the Reformation doctrines. Not one of them is stated in Scripture. They are all inferences. A whole theology built on nothing but inferences. It amazes me that anyone buys into this system at all. Somewhere along the way Christians got the idea that they could just interpret the Scriptures any old way they want to and then claim it's God's word. It's only God's word if you are understanding it correctly. if one misunderstands the Scriptures then it's not God's word. It's error. It's never a good idea to form doctrine on inferences.

I want to type a proper reply to yours when I get the time. For now, I will just say I do not disagree that the context of works are laws of the old covenant. There is nothing wrong with the old covenant and works we all had to do. There is nothing wrong with any works anyone does that are 'good'. They all speak to a hearts desire to try and do what is right. This is good. Works can result in justification for salvation, not salvation. Please meditate on that.

 

[Butch5]

I want to type a proper reply to yours when I get the time. For now, I will just say I do not disagree that the context of works are laws of the old covenant. There is nothing wrong with the old covenant and works we all had to do. There is nothing wrong with any works anyone does that are 'good'. They all speak to a hearts desire to try and do what is right. This is good. Works can result in justification for salvation, not salvation. Please meditate on that.

I look forward to your reply. Let me just say that the logic of your last statement doesn't follow. If works result in justification and justification is necessary for salvation then works are necessary for salvation .

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Let Scripture interpret Scripture is the logical fallacy known as reification. The Scriptures are words. They don't have a mind and cannot interpret. This is an argument that gives a false sense of authority to the speaker. As though the speaker's interpretation of a passage was Scripture. Any interpretation is just that, an interpretation. Translations too, are somewhat of an interpretation. I would also submit that Sola Scriptura is not the gold standard. None of the Apostles ever said that. They told their disciples to hold to the traditions that were handed down to them. I'll grant you that today, that's not always a good idea as many of the traditions the apostles handed down have been corrupted. However, on the other hand, we don't have the original writings of the apostles, so we can't go by "Sola Scriptura". We can go by, "Sola translation" or in other words, some guy's understanding of the texts. But how do we know he understands the texts correctly? We don't. That's another reason proof texting is such a poor way to engage Scripture. If translators can misunderstand passages, how much more the unlearned? One's translation is the product of one's presuppositions.

And by the way, the Bible is a collection of 66 books. Some of the authors were living centuries apart, and yet the message is consistent, it’s all about God’s salvation of mankind through his messiah, as they attest to one another. When I said “let Scripture interpret itself”, that usually means using one book to interpret another, and the two could be written centuries apart. So don’t pretend that it’s one big ancient codex written by one author or one group, because it’s really not. If you don’t trust translations and/or interpretations, fine, go learn ancient Hebrew and Greek on your own time and your own dime. I don’t trust a lot of the translations either, including KJV where Holy Spirit is “Holy Ghost”, the life giving spirit somehow becomes dead people’s ghost, that’s a big insult to me, no wonder the third person of the trinity is so misunderstood; but I still take what I do trust and study on it, instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water.

 

[Butch5]

And by the way, the Bible is a collection of 66 books. Some of the authors were living centuries apart, and yet the message is consistent, it’s all about God’s salvation of mankind through his messiah, as they attest to one another. When I said “let Scripture interpret itself”, that usually means using one book to interpret another, and the two could be written centuries apart. So don’t pretend that it’s one big ancient codex written by one author or one group, because it’s really not. If you don’t trust translations and/or interpretations, fine, go learn ancient Hebrew and Greek on your own time and your own dime. I don’t trust a lot of the translations either, including KJV where Holy Spirit is “Holy Ghost”, the life giving spirit somehow becomes dead people’s ghost, that’s a big insult to me, no wonder the third person of the trinity is so misunderstood; but I still take what I do trust and study on it, instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water.

But that doesn't change the fact that saying, " let Scripture interpret Scripture" is a logical fallacy. It takes a person , with a mind, to interpret both books.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

But that doesn't change the fact that saying, " let Scripture interpret Scripture" is a logical fallacy. It takes a person , with a mind, to interpret both books.

Yes, it takes a person to draw the connection. For example, the Woman of Apocalypse "clothed in the sun, standing on the moon with a diadem of twelve stars" in Rev. 12 is not virgin Mary, but a symbol of the nation of Israel based on the exact same imagery in Joseph's dream back in Gen. 37, which was positively identified by Jacob as "your father and mother and your brothers", which means the twelve patriarches, Rachel and Jacob himself. This is not written in any version of Rev. 12, of course it takes a person to discover this reference.

 

[KingJ]

You're starting with a false premise. The "Works based salvation" argument is a Reformation teaching, not a Biblical one. It stems from Martin Luther's "Faith Alone" doctrine. Christians are told to keep Christ's commands. So, there are things we must do. As has been mentioned, you're taking Scripture out of context. You said,

"Eph 2:8-9 thoroughly debunks a non-OSAS view of every scripture alluding to works. As such, to make your non-OSAS argument you need to prove how 'abiding' is not works."

No, it doesn't. Because when we read it in context, we find that it is speaking of the Mosaic Law. Essentially, "not of works" is saying not of the Mosaic Law. That becomes crystal clear from the context.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Eph 2:8–10.

So, why is it that they are not saved by works? Paul explains.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Eph 2:11–17.

Christ has broken down the middle wall of partition. Here Paul is referencing an actual wall in the temple that separated Jews and Gentiles. There was a wall on the temple grounds that the Gentiles could not pass. The Jews on the other hand could, essentially getting closer to God. Christ broke down that wall. Now Jew and Gentile had equal access. He continues to explain that Christ abolished "the law of commandments contained in ordinances". That is the Mosaic Law. The reason Gentiles aren't saved by works is because Christ had abolished the works of the Law.

The problem is that people proof text Eph 2:9 and give works their own definition and then claim the Bible says one doesn't have any works to do. Nothing could father from the truth. If we look at virtually all of Paul's statement on works, we'll find some reference to the Mosaic Law. Take Galatians 4 for instance.

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ga 3:1–5.

Moot argument,

1, Mosaic law covers about every 'work' there is to do. Right up to repentance of sins Psalm 51:17.

The few Jewish scholars I have spoken to, explained to me that before any stoning to death took place a person was given a chance to repent. Their greatest works, even repentance 'still' resulted in 'death' in Abrahams Bosom. Nobody received salvation / reconciliation with God in heaven.

2. Please read your own bold and underlined passage from Galatians, ''Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Do you think someone like a non-OSAS believer teaching us to 'continue in works', cough cough 'not works, just not sinning, going to church, attending breaking of bread meetings, forgiving others, working on believing the unseen is seen' cannot learn from Paul 'completely and utterly' rebuking Jews who think their OT works will save them? Or as he says 'make them perfect'.

The OT Jews continuing in works as a Christian, that Paul rebuked, is the exact same kind of person a non-OSAS Christian is. Prove to me it is not. All non-OSAS believers here dance around the accusations I have made of their belief.

Prove to me that as a non-OSAS believer you are not doing exactly as the Jews under Mosaic law were doing.

OSAS believers will say 'in order to stay saved, you must not steal, you must not commit adultery'. I like your verse to the Galatians', now please explain to me how you as a non-OSAS believer are not guilty of it.

Salvation is a free gift given by God. Rom 5:15, Rom 6:23, 2 Cor 9:15, Eph 2:8.

If Paul was speaking to non-OSAS Christians, he would say the exact line to them in Eph 2:9.

This is why a study of history is useful. If we study the events of the time, we'll find that Paul had a big problem during his ministry. The problem was that of the Judaizers. These were men who came from the Jerusalem church, and we are going behind Paul telling his converts that in addition to faith they also had to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses.

I know this, I knew this. Knowing this does not change the point that upset Paul. The righteous live by faith and not by works.

Living by faith is a whole separate matter. I will be starting a thread on it soon.

These Jews were getting the cart before the horse. Exactly as non-OSAS believers do.

We can see this must have been quite a problem is God had the Holy Spirit involved. The rest of the account can be read in Acts 15.

So, When Paul says they are not saved by works, he is not saying anything one does. He is specifically addressing this idea that the Gentiles had to keep the Law of Moses. This passage has wrongly been used for hundreds of years to mislead Christians into thinking that there is nothing for them to do regarding salvation. I've actually heard Christians say if you try to do works you are working against God. This is wrong at every level. People grab this passage and claim Paul is saying that good works aren't necessary. However, it seems they don't pay attention to another statement Paul made.

I will repeat. There is nothing wrong with the law of Moses. God gave Moses those 'works' he wanted humans to perform. There are no other works that would please God. God does not change.

This is why it is completely understandable and forgivable for any to assume 'works = OT rules'.

Please also note, I am not saying a Christian must not live by them.

You have to try understand the point I am making.

In the OT all good people who repented of sins / continued in good works ( the two are mutually inclusive), got to Abraham's Bosom. Jonah preached to Nineveh, so we know Abraham's Bosom was not solely for Hebrews.

Nobody was able to go from Abraham's Bosom to heaven until the cross. Salvation is that gift of taking a person from Abrahams Bosom to heaven.

Now, we need to grasp that people got themselves to Abrahams Bosom. Likewise after the cross, works / repentance are needed prior to salvation.

Jesus called sinners to repentance. Only truly repentant sinners receive the gift of salvation.

Repentance is not 'not a work'. If I rape a girl, I need to publicly confess, pay for therapy and accept prison time and or death penalty. Works.

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ro 2:5–9.

Paul says that God will render to every man "According to his works". What are the two rewards? To those who do good, eternal life. To those who do evil, indignation and wrath. Now, there's a crystal-clear statement that doing good works leads to eternal life. Unless you can figure out how this passage isn't saying that your interpretation of Ephesians 2:9 comes into question. And, as we see the context of that passage shows that interpretation is incorrect.

Agree with all of this. You are just not understanding what salvation is. Your whole theology excludes it. Salvation is the root of the disagreement between OSAS and non-OSAS.

Think of a murderer in the OT that would repent just before death. He would likely go to Abrahams Bosom and receive salvation when Jesus came to take all those in AB to heaven. Today, when we repent at a depth of intent, we receive salvation instantly and can start a life of serving God as His child, as a new creation, immediately. We immediately qualify for heaven. We do not go there, simply because He wants us to be His ambassadors on earth.

Now non-OSAS implies / teaches that:

We do not receive salvation instantly. Our repentance can never be at a depth of intent. We need to prove it with works. Cart before horse. We need to in a sense earn it.

This leads to God being portrayed as a wicked fool who could send a Christian who serves Him for 50 years and fails in year 51 to hell and one who serves Him only 1 day to heaven for all eternity. A complete perversion of justice and abandonment of His faithful servant of 50 years. Crazy teaching. Sick teaching. Teaching all saved Christians that God is a mental case. We should lock ourselves in a room for the rest of our lives or look for mountains and bridges we can accidentally fall off the second we feel our good works outweigh our bad.

 

[KingJ]

I look forward to your reply. Let me just say that the logic of your last statement doesn't follow. If works result in justification and justification is necessary for salvation then works are necessary for salvation .

I hear your logic and agree. We need to nit pick though.

Works is a vehicle that gets us to the airport. Salvation is the vehicle that takes us from the airport to heaven. If we are not at the airport we do not board the plane to heaven.

Works that please God come from a heart that is right. There are many scriptures that speak to God wanting a right heart. A heart that hates what is evil, produces good works. Now God can judge such a heart for sincerity Jer 17:9-12. A human can't. This is why humans believe in non-OSAS.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Do you? You have a funny way of showing it. If you really trust the Lord, you wouldn't question the validy of our salvation, purchased with the precious blood of His only son that was shed on the cross.

This seems to be the answer you have when people do not agree with what you believe Jonathan.

 

[Butch5]

Yes, it takes a person to draw the connection. For example, the Woman of Apocalypse "clothed in the sun, standing on the moon with a diadem of twelve stars" in Rev. 12 is not virgin Mary, but a symbol of the nation of Israel based on the exact same imagery in Joseph's dream back in Gen. 37, which was positively identified by Jacob as "your father and mother and your brothers", which means the twelve patriarches, Rachel and Jacob himself. This is not written in any version of Rev. 12, of course it takes a person to discover this reference.

But this doesn't address the issue. It's still a logical fallacy that attempts to give unwarranted authority to the one making thr claim.

 

[Brother-Paul]

YOU read the scriptures. The Yeshua HaMashiach of Nazareth I know was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of virgin Mary, baptized at about age 30, crucified on the cross, buried in Joseph's tomb, resurrected on the third day and most importantly, ascended into heaven, seated at the right hand of God; when His church is built and complete,

Agreed brother and most important Pentecost was the birth of the ekkleia.

He shall return and rule the world.

Agreed, I cannot wait Jonathan, thank God the time will be cut short

This is the only Lord and Savior I follow and worship, any other version is a false idol from Satan.

Agreed

He stated multiple times in the Farewell Discourse that he was about to DEPART from the disciples, and it is for our ADVANTAGE,

That is true, He was preparing His disciples for this, it is to our advantage

the message is loud and clear, and you're just so blind to see it and so stubborn to accept it.

Totally agree Jonathan, I am wondering what you are reading my friend. Oh yes, it was; is OSAS true or false? You say true, I say false. You say that the reason you put forward proves it, I and many others totally disagree. I/we have provided scripture to prove it, you do not want to accept it. So there we are Jonathan, and you know what, OSAS or not a doesn't make one little difference.

I've heard it all the time that "Jesus is in my heart", "Jesus co-pilots my life," "just give me Jesus," and the most dangerous one, "Jesus has already returned, it's the awakening of human consciousness." That is wicked deception from the New Age movement and denial of the Holy Spirit who's really dwelling in our hearts, while the Lord himself is in heaven, and very soon, perhaps within less than a decade, will physically return. His absence is both for our advantage and a test of out patience and allegiance.

I say this in love my friend, you come over as your reasoning is right, all the time, your mindset is set in concrete, that is very dangerous.

Let us note:
- All authority in heaven and on earth was given to Jesus
- It is important to listen to His every word. He is The Word.
- He gave us a New Covenant, a covenant of love, but at the same time we must never be, love blind, and miss the point, vengeance is His, we should fear the Wrath of God.
- Jesus turned His back on the Jews and their Temple on Tuesday of Holy Week, another item in His last week of preparations
- He prophesied the Temple would be flattened to the ground, it was 30-40 years later.
- His Church, was born by the Spirit from above, started at Pentecost.
- His Church, the ekklesia, ONLY includes the born again from above souls, the ones who were truly born again from above when The Holy Spirit connected with our Spirit.
- His Church is Spiritual, we worship in Spirit and Truth, born again souls are spiritual bricks in His church, the spiritual body of which He is Head of.

You say you have heard it all, I cannot help but wonder whom you knock around with Jonathan, don't tar me with your wicked brush, you haven't got a clue about me.

Go in peace

 

[Brother-Paul]

He who abides in Him will always abide in Him, those are the true believers who bear fruit. No matter how small and how little of the fruit they bear, there're real improvement in their lives, and they are willing to be pruned by the Father who is the vinedresser, to accept the decluttering in their lives, having the distractions removed and having their focus on the mission, so they can become productive and bear MORE fruit; those who are "cut off" are the Judas element who hang around in the congregation for some worldly benefits, that include all the crowd who were OFFENDED by the message of eating His body and drinking His blood, they all turned away. Those are the ones being cut off, because they had never abided in Christ in the first place. Those are the ones who are playing an empty religion instead of cultivating an intimate relationship, and them Yeshua "never knew". It's the exact same message as "those who have will have more, those who don't have, the little they have will be taken away."

If they are not born again from above, they are not His!

There are many scriptures warning of falling away, coming off the narrow road, including being cast out of the vine due to withering and not bearing fruit, they all carry the same message, you can lose your salvation if you fall back into the world of sinning.

As we know Jesus spoke in parables, and many of them, they all carry a similar message, they point us to heaven, but include warnings also, we who are born again from above. MUST, abide in Him for Him to abide in us. If we are not grafted into the vine, we are not connected to the goodness that comes from the vine. If we are not abiding in Jesus, He cannot abide in us. We have no one tom blame but ourselves.

John 15, Jesus Words are very clear, He is The Word, He has the authority, He was preparing His disciples for when He goes to the Father. Abide in me, so that I can abide in you, if you do not bear fruit you will wither, if you continue to wither the branch will be good for nothing, it will be cut off and burnt. As Jesus says, without me, you can do nothing. You will be spiritually dead!

Jesus was clearly speaking in, John 15, to those who ARE HIS.

 

[Brother-Paul]

It was so important as his parting words to his disciples, or so important to you because this is the only portion you can cherrypick? Did you really not read John 15:3 which you quoted that says, "you are ALREADY CLEAN?" Based on what he said right next, "love one another, you are no longer my servants but my friends", are you really suggesting that he's threatening to cut them off - instead of encouraging them to fight on?

John 15:1-17 is important based on the discussion regarding your claim OSAS, no cherry picking here, let scripture speak, the reason it is mentioned is because...
- The Word is what makes a believer clean
- The Word is Jesus who has all authority, and it is Jesus who is speaking here
- I include it as it confirms, OSAS is false teaching, Jesus makes it clear that a saved soul CAN be 'CAST OUT' from the vine.
- The other reason is that you quote many other things and do not want to accept what Jesus is actually saying

Jesus said to His disciples, as you kindly quote, 'you are Already Clean', This message is in the second section of this text see below.

It is by grace through faith in Christ that we are cleansed.
It is by believing the Word of God that we are washed.

John 15:1-11 - Part 1 - The Relationship of Believers to Christ

John 15:3 (NKJV)
You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.


John 15:11-17 - Part 2 - The Relationship of Believers to Each Other

John 15:15 (NKJV)
No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you

NOTE: John 15:5-6 (NKJV) is in Part 1 - The Relationship of Believers to Christ
NOTE ALSO: These are Jesus' words, Words from the Word, not mine!
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is CAST OUT as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

We are to encourage one another in Christ Jesus, but we are each responsible for our own sins, we cannot be responsible for, Joe Blogs, having an affair and committing adultery, can we? But if we know we are to talk with the person in love, explain to them what they are doing in God's eyes, how they are returning to sin and the consequences of sin.

God does not cut them out of the vine straight away, no no, He doesn't want any to be lost. First the fruit reduces, then the fruit stops, then the branch withers, there is plenty of time for the person to receive loving help and advice, should they listen.

 

[joestue]

Now non-OSAS implies / teaches that:

We do not receive salvation instantly. Our repentance can never be at a depth of intent. We need to prove it with works. Cart before horse. We need to in a sense earn it.

Were those words spoken in anger or are they what you believe the average non osas person believes? And who specifically in this thread has said anything like that?

 

[KingJ]

Were those words spoken in anger or are they what you believe the average non osas person believes? And who specifically in this thread has said anything like that?

There are a number of posts here stating this.

Do you think I am misunderstanding peoples belief on the topic? How would you define a non-OSAS belief?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

But this doesn't address the issue. It's still a logical fallacy that attempts to give unwarranted authority to the one making thr claim.

I answered in another post, the Bible is true and trustworthy because its being fulfilled in reality, validated by numerous extrabiblical sources. Just because some translations maybe tampered with does mean the original words are not inspired by God. If we can’t agree on that the authority and infallibility of the Bible, then there’s nothing to debate about, it’s just your unbelief, and no amount of information can change that.

 

[Butch5]

Moot argument,

1, Mosaic law covers about every 'work' there is to do. Right up to repentance of sins Psalm 51:17.

The few Jewish scholars I have spoken to, explained to me that before any stoning to death took place a person was given a chance to repent. Their greatest works, even repentance 'still' resulted in 'death' in Abrahams Bosom. Nobody received salvation / reconciliation with God in heaven.

2. Please read your own bold and underlined passage from Galatians, ''Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Do you think someone like a non-OSAS believer teaching us to 'continue in works', cough cough 'not works, just not sinning, going to church, attending breaking of bread meetings, forgiving others, working on believing the unseen is seen' cannot learn from Paul 'completely and utterly' rebuking Jews who think their OT works will save them? Or as he says 'make them perfect'.

The OT Jews continuing in works as a Christian, that Paul rebuked, is the exact same kind of person a non-OSAS Christian is. Prove to me it is not. All non-OSAS believers here dance around the accusations I have made of their belief.

If you study the history of the period, you'll find that the Jews who became Christians did continue to follow the Law of Moses. That was the whole point the Judiazers were making. They insisted that the Gentiles too, must follow the Law of Moses. Paul himself made it a priority to be in Jerusalem on the feast days. The Gentiles didn't make the trip to Jerusalem for the feast days. It wasn't required. It wasn't required of the Jewish Christians either, but they continued to do it. Paul himself did. He even said when he was with the Jews he acted as a Jew.

Prove to me that as a non-OSAS believer you are not doing exactly as the Jews under Mosaic law were doing.

OSAS believers will say 'in order to stay saved, you must not steal, you must not commit adultery'. I like your verse to the Galatians', now please explain to me how you as a non-OSAS believer are not guilty of it.

Sure! You quoted Ephesians 2:9. I pointed out that in the context Paul said that Christ abolished "the commands contained in ordinances". So, I have not gotten circumcised to enter a covenant with God. The Judaizers claimed this was necessary.

And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ac 15:1–2.

I don't go to the temple and offer sacrifices for sin. I don't take the first fruits of my harvest to the temple. I don't make the journey to Jerusalem for the feast days as was required under the Mosaic Law. I think you're reading something into Paul's words that isn't there. Now, let's look at what Paul didn't say. He didn't say Christ abolished, obedience to God. He didn't say Christ abolished the 10 commandments. He didn't say Christ abolished being a good person, and so on.

His argument was against the Judiazers who were claiming that one must be circumcised, observe the feast days and the other "ordinances" of the Mosaic Law. Paul didn't say that Christ abolished every aspect of the Law of Moses. He said he abolished the ordinances. They are the works that cannot save. They are the covenant that God made with Israel. Taking a sin offering to the temple cannot save. Paul even makes this point in Hebrews where he says the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sins. It's all about these rituals or ordinances that the Jews were required to do. They cannot save.

Salvation is a free gift given by God. Rom 5:15, Rom 6:23, 2 Cor 9:15, Eph 2:8.

If Paul was speaking to non-OSAS Christians, he would say the exact line to them in Eph 2:9.

None of these passages suggest that salvation can't be lost.

I know this, I knew this. Knowing this does not change the point that upset Paul. The righteous live by faith and not by works.

Living by faith is a whole separate matter. I will be starting a thread on it soon.

These Jews were getting the cart before the horse. Exactly as non-OSAS believers do.

Most people misunderstand that phrase, "the just shall live by faith". Most think it's talking about how a just, person, or Christian, lives their life. That's not what Paul is saying. If we look at the context it's about resurrection. We could understand that passage as, the just shall be resurrected through faith. But, his point is faith as opposed to circumcision, sin offerings at the temple, etc.

I will repeat. There is nothing wrong with the law of Moses. God gave Moses those 'works' he wanted humans to perform. There are no other works that would please God. God does not change.

This is why it is completely understandable and forgivable for any to assume 'works = OT rules'.

Please also note, I am not saying a Christian must not live by them.

You have to try understand the point I am making.

In the OT all good people who repented of sins / continued in good works ( the two are mutually inclusive), got to Abraham's Bosom. Jonah preached to Nineveh, so we know Abraham's Bosom was not solely for Hebrews.

Nobody was able to go from Abraham's Bosom to heaven until the cross. Salvation is that gift of taking a person from Abrahams Bosom to heaven.

Now, we need to grasp that people got themselves to Abrahams Bosom. Likewise after the cross, works / repentance are needed prior to salvation.

Jesus called sinners to repentance. Only truly repentant sinners receive the gift of salvation.

Repentance is not 'not a work'. If I rape a girl, I need to publicly confess, pay for therapy and accept prison time and or death penalty. Works.

Abraham's bosom is not an actual place. It's a parable. You said salvation is going to Heaven. There's a real problem with that. Where did the apostles go? If people go to heaven, shouldn't they be there? The apostle John, writing decades after the other apostles had died said this.

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jn 3:12–13.

No one has ascended to Heaven. So where did the apostles go? Where did all of those persecuted Christians go? Weren't they saved? If going to heaven is salvation and they didn't go there, does that mean they weren't saved?

Repentance is not a work? How is that? According to Scripture it is a work.

O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Mt 3:7–8.

Agree with all of this. You are just not understanding what salvation is. Your whole theology excludes it. Salvation is the root of the disagreement between OSAS and non-OSAS.

Think of a murderer in the OT that would repent just before death. He would likely go to Abrahams Bosom and receive salvation when Jesus came to take all those in AB to heaven. Today, when we repent at a depth of intent, we receive salvation instantly and can start a life of serving God as His child, as a new creation, immediately. We immediately qualify for heaven. We do not go there, simply because He wants us to be His ambassadors on earth.

That's not what the Scriptures call salvation. in Scripture salvation is being saved from death.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and pthis mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O tgrave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Co 15:50–58.

It's at the last trumpet that death is defeated, and we get victory over "Hades". Remember what Jesus said?

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Mt 16:18–Re 21:25.

The gates of Hades will not prevail against Christ's church. All believers die and go to Hades, the grave. However, in Christ, they have victory over death and the grave. At the last trumpet Christ will return and bring forth his church from the grave and they will have victory over death and Hades, the grave. Jesus said the believer would have eternal life in the age to come.

29 So Jesus answered and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel’s, 30 who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time—houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions—and in the age to come, eternal life. 31 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.”

The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), Mk 10:29–31.

Now non-OSAS implies / teaches that:

We do not receive salvation instantly. Our repentance can never be at a depth of intent. We need to prove it with works. Cart before horse. We need to in a sense earn it.

This leads to God being portrayed as a wicked fool who could send a Christian who serves Him for 50 years and fails in year 51 to hell and one who serves Him only 1 day to heaven for all eternity. A complete perversion of justice and abandonment of His faithful servant of 50 years. Crazy teaching. Sick teaching. Teaching all saved Christians that God is a mental case. We should lock ourselves in a room for the rest of our lives or look for mountains and bridges we can accidentally fall off the second we feel our good works outweigh our bad.

No, it doesn't. It may appear that way based on your understanding of things, but things can be understood differently. Saying someone can turn away from the faith is no reflection on God, it's reflection on the individual.

On a side note, I would like to point out an inconsistency. in another thread you pointed out that you hold to Penal Atonement. If you are worried here about how you believe Non OSAS portrays God, why aren't you worried about how Penal Atonement portrays God? The bible says that God will forgive sins. Penal Atonement holds that God requires justice and that sin must be "paid" for. A debt paid is not forgiven. It further holds that God had His own Son die on the cross to satisfy His wrath. Personally, I find that reprehensible. Under this doctrine God promises to forgive sins, but in reality doesn't. Instead, He requires the death of HIs own Son to satisfy His wrath and "Pay" the price for sinners. How does that doctrine portray God? First a liar, sins aren't forgiven, they're paid for. Then killing His own Son. Let me ask you this, if there was a guy on the news who murdered his son because his daughter misbehaved, would expect him to be honorable to his neighbor? If God would lie and kill His own Son simply to satisfy His wrath, why would you expect Him to honor anyone's salvation?

 

[Butch5]

I answered in another post, the Bible is true and trustworthy because its being fulfilled in reality, validated by numerous extrabiblical sources. Just because some translations maybe tampered with does mean the original words are not inspired by God. If we can’t agree on that the authority and infallibility of the Bible, then there’s nothing to debate about, it’s just your unbelief, and no amount of information can change that.

The issue is the fallacy of reification. But, you keep jumping from thing to another without addressing the issues.