Non-OSAS belief - undermines the cross

[KingJ]

I think the problem here is... too many are saying "I think this", or "I think that". What we think doesn't matter. What scriptures says it what matters.
Dozens of scriptures have been posted, at least on the non-osas side.

What you think is "good" isn't necessarily what God says is good. Good doesn't mean "nice".
A good parent will punish bad children. A good judge will punish bad criminals. A good soldier will kill the enemy.

BAC, I did not say your belief proves God is ''good vs nice''. I said, wicked, fool, perversion of justice.

You are not dealing with the arguments I raised. You are dodging.

Question: Prove to me that non-OSAS does not imply God is a wicked fool who perverts justice, as explained in post 43.

Answer: ???

Please, for the love of God, stop trolling and dodging, ANSWER the question or concede to not being able to.

The bible says God is NOT a wicked fool who perverts justice.

 

[KingJ]

I conclude that evidence from the scriptures have been provided, details and other scriptures have been added to further clarify the situation but you appeared blinkered, veiled, as if your views are right and everyone else is wrong.

You accuse people of cherry picking, yet seem cherry pick yourself. I constantly say all scrioture is God breathed and we must consider all, yet you look for scriptures that seem to suit your thinking.

You invited us to the discussion, but there are been little discussion as it needs both ideas to be considered. That has not been the case.

What is so frustrating here is, you say you want to discuss but are not willing to discuss, you only push your point of view. You accuse people of cherry picking but do it yourself and cannot see it. You even said you set a trap, that took the biscuit for me, I don't play worldly games when talking scripture. I say this in love brother, but I am out.

I said to you that your belief implies God is a wicked fool who perverts justice. I explained why.

You seem to think you answer the question raised by posting more scripture proving non-OSAS.

It is not me that is unable to discuss. You are running away from the discussion. You have yet to answer the simple question asked.

Anyone who teaches non-OSAS implies God is a wicked fool who perverts justice and needs to consider this as it is a serious matter. Misrepresenting God to the lost is the devils job, not ours.

 

[KingJ]

So why the apparent discrepancy? I believe both verses 100%. Anyone who believes in Jesus can saved, in fact if you don't believe in Jesus you can't be saved.
OK, so now they are saved. Great, good, awesome!! So then why Matthew 7:21-23; ? It tells us why in that passage.

Matt 7:21; "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt 7:22; "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Matt 7:23; "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

These people did miracles.. "in HIS name". They prophesied.. "in HIS name". They cast out demons.. "in HIS name". They even called Him "LORD"!
So obviously they believed in Him. So then, why wasn't that good enough? Verse 23 gives us the answer.

They continued to practice sin. Practice lawlessness, practice iniquity. Call it whatever you want. They didn't just stumble in sin from time to time.
They practiced it. They lived in it.

Maybe they were saved for a while. It's doubtful they did miracles, cast out demons, and prophesied in their own power. That wasn't the problem.
The failure to "remain" in Christ, or "abide" in Christ. They were even changed for a while. But they didn't continue in it. They weren't over-comers. The succumbed to the world again.

1Jn 2:24; Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

Notice the word "if" in this verse. If what you have heard remains in you, then.. (and only then) you will continue to be in the Son (and Father).

Rev 2:26; 'He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS;
Rev 3:5; 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

1Cor 9:27; but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

BAC you are not reading my posts. I explained previously, Matt 21 says that those evildoers '''were NOT ever known by God''. It proves OSAS and not non-OSAS.

 

[KingJ]

I have opened a thread dedicated only to the simple question of non-OSAS believers explaining why their belief is not a perversion of justice.

Feel free to answer me there. I have tried to clarify the question. It seems to be getting lost in our discussions here.

Question for non-OSAS believers

OSAS = Once saved always saved A non-OSAS belief implies God is a wicked fool who perverts justice. Question - Please explain to me how this is not the case with a non-OSAS belief. Please do not copy past volumes and volumes of scriptures that seem to support non-OSAS. This thread is asking...

www.talkjesus.com

 

[Brother-Paul]

The only game here is how all the non-OSAS believers are dancing around the accusation I have made of a non-OSAS belief.

It seems nobody is interested in defending non-OSAS with logic. You are all fine that the unsaved believe God is a wicked fool?

Don't quote words not in scripture brother.

God is love, he is a rewarder of those who abide, obey and are failful, but God HATES SIN!

John 3:3 & 5
“Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

John 18:19
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Romans 12:19
Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

2 Thessalonians 1:8
In flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

John 15
As discussed, Jesus explains the vine, as born again souls we are grafted in, why? To bear fruit to bring Glory to God.

Jesus using the Vine, root & vine plus branches, cleasrly tells us if we do not abide, if we do not bear fruit we will wither, we will be 'cut out' collected together and burned.
It is a warning to all who are grafted into the vine, without Jesus we can do nothing.

The Peril of Not Progressing - Not abiding - Not bring forth fruit to bring Glory to God - falling back into sin and the world​

Hebrews 6:1-8
Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
And this we will do if God permits.

For it is impossible
for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Yes, they can fall away, fail to abide in the goodness of the vine, in doing so they will wither, they will be 'cut out' they will die, not only that...
It would then be impossible to be saved again, since they crucify the Son of God, cut him out due to their wickedness, there falling back into sin.
Once a saved soul goes back to sin, the world and the devil, they have sealed their destiny, cut off from Christ and eternal life for all eternity.

OSAS is false teaching, it is not in scripture. As we can see, saved souls can lost their salvation, as many of us have show with scripture in past and present threads.

I quote scripture that confirms OSAS is wrong and dangerous thinking brother

The falling away from the vine is the withering, the result is being cut out, completely

Peace be with you

 

[Butch5]

Hi all

This thread is an offshoot of the 'false teaching 'thread here False teaching, to discuss this specific topic.

2. Non OSAS belief - undermines cross

OSAS = Once saved always saved.

Many espouse we can lose our salvation. Whilst I agree it is important to daily examine ourselves and ensure we are saved, as many wicked believe they are saved. Paul's teaching is rife with such warnings. It is pure heresy to teach that someone God has grafted into His family and washed with the blood of Jesus, can be removed.

It is a belief contrived from much cherry picking and half truths. One that mocks Christianity and stumbles the weak.

Those that believe this, should lock themselves in a room in a cabin far far away from all society. As the Christian that actually works with the lost for God, can get corrupted by them and land up burning in the fires of hell for all eternity. We should pray daily, that just like the criminal next to Jesus on the cross, we die soon after conversion.

Absolute trash. God does not mistakes of grafting demons into heaven. This entire belief is debunked with Heb 13:5. ''Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you''.

Where do you find Scripture that says one cannot lose salvation?

There was some who literally had eternal life and lost it. God told Adam he could eat from any tree in the garden but the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So, Adam had access to the tree of life. He had immortality. He sinned and lost it.

The passage you quoted from Hebrews, it's a passage found in the book of Joshua. God told Joshua that He would never leave him nor forsake him. Then just a few chapters later God forsook him and left him. The reason? Israel sinned. So, we see from the context that the passage is not unconditional.

 

[Waggles]

Again, suffering from the consequences in this life, and losing their reward in the next life.

So then you are confirming that OSAS is not true. Those who are saved can lose the reward of eternal life with Jesus.

 

[KingJ]

Where do you find Scripture that says one cannot lose salvation?

Rom 10:13 Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Please see post 5 and 34. If you have time also read post 10, 13 and 30.

There was some who literally had eternal life and lost it. God told Adam he could eat from any tree in the garden but the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So, Adam had access to the tree of life. He had immortality. He sinned and lost it.

Adam did not go off into eternal torment in the lake fire.

In the case of your annihilationist view, Adam did not get burnt and cease to exist after he sinned.

The passage you quoted from Hebrews, it's a passage found in the book of Joshua. God told Joshua that He would never leave him nor forsake him. Then just a few chapters later God forsook him and left him. The reason? Israel sinned. So, we see from the context that the passage is not unconditional.

No, butch, you do not get to dismiss Heb 13:5 just because the same line is mentioned in Joshua and 'Israel sinned'. It describes a factual characteristic of God and that is the reason I quoted it.

Israel was not a born again sanctified person. Please read here What is a Christian and how do you become one? to see the difference between 'Israel' and a born again Christian.

 

[KingJ]

Don't quote words not in scripture brother.

God is love, he is a rewarder of those who abide, obey and are failful, but God HATES SIN!

Why do you say God is love?

If you think sending a committed Christian who provides impeccable service for many years to an eternal hell after one or two mortal sins, ''love', you really have some explaining to do.

Which, none of you are doing. Even after I created a thread for that exact purpose Question for non-OSAS believers.

 

[Waggles]

to an eternal hell after one or two mortal sins,

and that is personal opinion triumphing over scripture and true doctrine.
Logic is irrelevant for salvation is a spiritual walk not an academic exercise.
Mortal sins are just that - sins that lead to death.

 

[Waggles]

Matthew 25:14 For it is just as when a man, going into another country, called his own bondmen, and delivered to them his goods.
15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one; to each according to his several ability; and he went into another country.
16 Straightway who received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained other five talents.
17 Likewise he of the two gained other two.
18 But who received the one went away and dug in the earth, and hid the money of his lord.
19 Now after a long time the lord of those bondmen cometh, and maketh a reckoning with them.
20 And who received the five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst to me five talents: see, I have gained other five talents.
21 His lord said to him, Well done, good and faithful bondman: thou hast been faithful over few things, I will set thee over many; enter into the joy of thy lord.
22 And he also of the two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst to me two talents: see, I have gained other two talents.
23 His lord said to him, Well done, good and faithful bondman: thou hast been faithful over few, I will set thee over many; enter into the joy of thy lord.
24 And he also that had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art a hard man, reaping where thou didst not sow, and gathering whence thou didst not scatter;
25 and I was afraid, and went away and hid thy talent in the earth: see, thou hast thine own.
26 But his lord answered and said to him: Wicked and slothful bondman, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather whence I scattered not;
27 thou oughtest therefore to have put my moneys to the bankers, and at my coming I should have received back mine with interest.
28 Take away therefore the talent from him, and give to him that hath the ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall abound: but from him that hath not, even what he hath shall be taken away.
30 And cast out the unprofitable bondman into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth.

 

[KingJ]

and that is personal opinion triumphing over scripture and true doctrine.
Logic is irrelevant for salvation is a spiritual walk not an academic exercise.
Mortal sins are just that - sins that lead to death.

If our idea of good and evil is different to God's, then Gen 3:22 is false.

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

Don't ignore logic. Being ''too spiritual'' when explaining scripture is dangerous ground for error.

As ambassadors of God 2 Cor 5:20, our 'one' job is properly represent Him to the unsaved, who use only logic.

 

[B-A-C]

Rom 10:13 Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

What does this verse have to do with OSAS? OK, it's how you get saved... it has nothing to do with how to stay saved.
I can give you tickets to Disneyland for free. I can give them to you for free. Now you can go to Disneyland. But if you break the rules, you still get kicked out, free tickets or not.

If our idea of good and evil is different to God's, then Gen 3:22 is false.

Isa 5:20; Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
Isa 5:21; Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes And clever in their own sight!

 

[KingJ]

Matthew 25:14 For it is just as when a man, going into another country, called his own bondmen, and delivered to them his goods.
15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one; to each according to his several ability; and he went into another country.
16 Straightway who received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained other five talents.
17 Likewise he of the two gained other two.
18 But who received the one went away and dug in the earth, and hid the money of his lord.
19 Now after a long time the lord of those bondmen cometh, and maketh a reckoning with them.
20 And who received the five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst to me five talents: see, I have gained other five talents.
21 His lord said to him, Well done, good and faithful bondman: thou hast been faithful over few things, I will set thee over many; enter into the joy of thy lord.
22 And he also of the two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst to me two talents: see, I have gained other two talents.
23 His lord said to him, Well done, good and faithful bondman: thou hast been faithful over few, I will set thee over many; enter into the joy of thy lord.
24 And he also that had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art a hard man, reaping where thou didst not sow, and gathering whence thou didst not scatter;
25 and I was afraid, and went away and hid thy talent in the earth: see, thou hast thine own.
26 But his lord answered and said to him: Wicked and slothful bondman, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather whence I scattered not;
27 thou oughtest therefore to have put my moneys to the bankers, and at my coming I should have received back mine with interest.
28 Take away therefore the talent from him, and give to him that hath the ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall abound: but from him that hath not, even what he hath shall be taken away.
30 And cast out the unprofitable bondman into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth.

If you know what it takes to become a Christian and what a Christian is as explained here What is a Christian and how do you become one?, you will / should know that without a doubt, a Christian can but only be a 'bondservant' that bears fruit.

We are the good tree Matt 17:7-8, our hearts were the fertile ground Matt 13:8.

You cannot go from the depth of intent of martyrdom to ''not bearing any fruit''. It is on par with saying Jesus died for us but will not feed us.

This parable is making a point separate to an OSAS message. Namely that God is looking for real Christians. Servants that cannot but be faithful with their talents / bear fruit.

 

[B-A-C]

We are the good tree Matt 17:7-8, our hearts were the fertile ground Matt 13:8.

You cannot go from the depth of intent of martyrdom to ''not bearing any fruit''. It is on par with saying Jesus died for us but will not feed us.

Luke 13:6; And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
Luke 13:7; "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
Luke 13:8; "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
Luke 13:9; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"

Some trees refuse to bear fruit, even with Jesus fertilizing them and watering them. It isn't Jesus's fault the tree doesn't bear fruit.

 

[B-A-C]

You are not dealing with the arguments I raised. You are dodging.

Question: Prove to me that non-OSAS does not imply God is a wicked fool who perverts justice, as explained in post 43.

Answer: ???

52 verses in post # 96.

 

[KingJ]

What does this verse have to do with OSAS? OK, it's how you get saved... it has nothing to do with how to stay saved.
I can give you tickets to Disneyland for free. I can give them to you for free. Now you can go to Disneyland. But if you break the rules, you still get kicked out, free tickets or not.

There is a full stop after ''saved''. Those who call on the name of the Lord Jesus, will be saved. (full stop).

I explain here what is needed to call on Jesus as Lord What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

If you do this, you are saved and God would be a bit crazy to expect more. As I have said before, a non-OSAS belief is on par with believing.....that if a Christian martyr was resurrected from the dead and fell into Rom 7:15 type sin, they will be sent to hell for all eternity.

Isa 5:20; Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
Isa 5:21; Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes And clever in their own sight!

These verses speak to those that distort what is good and evil. I am not referring to that. Unless you believe my idea of good is evil?

If so, that is fine, but then explain to me how so exactly.

I believe non-OSAS implies God is a wicked fool who perverts justice. Prove me wrong with your belief. I give my reasons.

This thread is created for just that purpose. Please reply there with how my view of good and evil is warped. Question for non-OSAS believers.

 

[B-A-C]

If you do this, you are saved and God would be a bit crazy to expect more.

And yet dozen of verses say He does expect more.

(full stop).

I think this is part of the problem, read the part I like... then stop. Don't read anything else.

 

[KingJ]

Luke 13:6; And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
Luke 13:7; "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
Luke 13:8; "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
Luke 13:9; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"

Some trees refuse to bear fruit, even with Jesus fertilizing them and watering them. It isn't Jesus's fault the tree doesn't bear fruit.

A born again Christian did not exist at the time of Jesus. This parable cannot be paralleled to the walk of 'true' Christians. It is more akin to something like what happened with the angels. They all served Him at some point and then a third did not. It can also be used to refer to those ''so called brethren'' 1 Cor 5:11 in attendance who take part in church activities like healing the sick, but were not real Christians as explained in Matt 7:21-23. He does not even ''know them''. That makes sense to me as God judges hearts at depths of intent that no man can Jer 17:9-11. He is certainly not an idiot that would graft a demon into heaven. He is wise Rom 16:27.

If you think this parable does speak to Christians, it is on par with saying that...three years after Jesus died for us, He suddenly refuses to feed us. Imagine that.

The real problem I believe is that non-OSAS believers do not know what a Christian is or what it takes to become one. As I explain here What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

 

[KingJ]

And yet dozen of verses say He does expect more.

Actually they don't. If you think more is required of us, you do not understand what a Christian is.

I will give you an example. Why is that in Rev 2:10 all God expects is ten days of torment and then death? Martyrdom = Eternal bliss.

Why would scripture say in John 15:13 that giving your life is the greatest gift of love. But yet you find scripture that says works after repentance is? You are cherry picking and not understanding that a single act at a depth of intent is what God wants.

You can serve God for 1000000000 years and still not hit any depth of intent.

Christs death and a verse like Matt 16:24 and Psalm 51:17 tell us that God wants depth of intent.

In fact, every scripture that mentions God judging the heart, debunks non-OSAS.

I think this is part of the problem, read the part I like... then stop. Don't read anything else.

It depends. Some verses do just fine as stand alone verses.