Non-OSAS belief - undermines the cross

[Brother-Paul]

There was no such thing as a Christian at the time of Jesus. So, there can be no OSAS vs non-OSAS debates. It is repentant verse unrepentant sinners.

The word Christian, means follower of Christ Jesus, are you saying the disciples where not followers of Jesus?

The context of all pre-cross ''falling away'' is akin to examples like the angels falling, people hardening their hearts to repentance of sin.

Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.
And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

As explained here in post 13 Question for non-OSAS believers, our names are all written in the lambs book from birth. Cutting branches off a tree thus refer to being removed from the book of life. Unrepentant sinners verse repentant sinners. A Christian is the very definition of a repentant sinner.

Post 13 - Romans 7:15 you posted...
Blameless to God is one who walks in repentance. One who will be quick to repent. Something a true Christian will always do. Paul was a true Christian when he wrote Rom 7:15.
Paul in this passage, a Christian who abides in Jesus, is talking about, law cannot save sin! So this is not part of the OSAS discussion.

Paul who is abiding in Jesus, is producing fruit for God, as in John 15. He is not falling away, he is not withering because he is abiding, so this verse is irrevelant to the discussion regarding John 15 and a grafted in soul being cut out, cast out.

In your following comment in the same post you say...
Born again = repentance + accepting Jesus = Jesus our bridegroom.

I would put like this...
Born-again = repentance + baptism + declaration of faith + submit to Jesus and abide in Him = gift of salvation and eternal life

But John 15 puts it that...
Born-again = repentance + baptism + declaration of faith + submit to Jesus and abide in Him >But if fall away to sin, fail to abide in Jesus, don't bear fruit for the Father< =
CUT OUT of THE VINE, CAST OUT, and BURNED

NOT my words brother, they are Jesus' words.
- Words from the one who has all authority.
- Words from the one we are abiding in when born-again.
- Confirming if we do not bear fruit, Jesus says, the Father WILL cut us out.

As Christians post-cross, if we are evildoers, Jesus would say He never knew us Matt 7:23. Or as Paul says in 1 Cor 5:11 when addressing the church, there are ''brethren so called'' in attendance.

Just before v21-23, we read v13-14

We are to keep on the narrow path, the path to Salvation, but not only will it be difficult few will find it. (Many no doubt also think they are on it!)
Many think they are followers of Jesus, Christians, many think they will go to heaven, as we know. Not just the lost souls, but many who consider themselves saved.

John 15 is not talking about the lost and thinkers, Jesus is talking to born-again from above followers
He explains, very clearly, if we continue to abide in Him we will bear fruit and will receive our salvation.
He also explains, very clearly, if we fall away, fail to abide in Him, we will be cut out, cast out.
NOTE: These are Jesus' own words.

Matthew 23:13-14
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Therefore, as Jesus says in the passage you quoted below, v21, there are going to be many who say 'Lord, Lord' on judgement day, who think they are saved but will clearly not.

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

This all goes back to my original argument of non-OSAS believers not fully grasping what exactly 'a Christian' is and how hard it is to become one, as explained here What is a Christian and how do you become one?

Argument, you say brother, I thought it was a discussion!

What seems clear to me, is you have a mind-set, I say this in love, you are not willing to consider all scripture, when-ever anything in John 15 is quoted to you, you close your ears to what Jesus is saying, you look for other ways to try get people to believe what you believe, I feel happy saying that as you have actually said that yourself previously.

I have read everything you have put to me, although commendable for your love of God, it is not commendable to argue a point against the very words of Jesus.

Every Word in scripture is God breathed, every word. That is why I carefully read what you put, but it does appear, to be brother, that you are not accepting what Jesus himself said, in John 15:1-17, which was for the benefit of all born-again souls

Shared in Love and Peace

Brother Paul

 

[KingJ]

The word Christian, means follower of Christ Jesus, are you saying the disciples where not followers of Jesus?

Christian does not simply mean follower of Jesus.

Are you proposing that Judas was a Christian? Someone as explained here What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

I would say Peter certainly was. Matt 16:16-17 is clear that God gave him a revelation of Jesus as the Messiah. Something all Christians receive 1 Cor 12:3. Something Judas did not receive.

Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.
And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

You are correct when you say all scripture is God breathed.

Heb 6 sheds light on Heb 10.

Heb 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit.

Note how it refers to those who were '''enlightened''' with the truth. Have '''tasted''' the heavenly gift. Have ''shared'' in the Holy Spirit. Does this sound like a Christian?

A Christian has ''accepted'' the truth. Not merely been enlightened. A Christian has not ''tasted'' the heavenly gift, they have entered eternal life / eaten the gift 1 John 5:11. A Christian does not ''share'' in the Holy Spirit. They are enveloped. He is their guide into all truth John 16:13.

Heb 10 is thus referring to those who have tasted, shared in and heard the truth. Those who have put their feet in church a couple of times. Those who are now 'inoculated' to the truth as they have ''been there, got the t-shirt''. Certainly not true Christians as explained here What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

A Christian is a new creation 2 Cor 5:17.

Post 13 - Romans 7:15 you posted...
Blameless to God is one who walks in repentance. One who will be quick to repent. Something a true Christian will always do. Paul was a true Christian when he wrote Rom 7:15.
Paul in this passage, a Christian who abides in Jesus, is talking about, law cannot save sin! So this is not part of the OSAS discussion.

Paul who is abiding in Jesus, is producing fruit for God, as in John 15. He is not falling away, he is not withering because he is abiding, so this verse is irrevelant to the discussion regarding John 15 and a grafted in soul being cut out, cast out.

You are overly reading into the verse. Just read it as is.

Rom 7:15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.

Translated, I sin and I don't want to.

He does not mention law cannot save him. He mentions that elsewhere. You are robbing this verse of its significance. Which is, that we still battle with sin as a Christian.

In your following comment in the same post you say...
Born again = repentance + accepting Jesus = Jesus our bridegroom.

I would put like this...
Born-again = repentance + baptism + declaration of faith + submit to Jesus and abide in Him = gift of salvation and eternal life

But John 15 puts it that...
Born-again = repentance + baptism + declaration of faith + submit to Jesus and abide in Him >But if fall away to sin, fail to abide in Jesus, don't bear fruit for the Father< =
CUT OUT of THE VINE, CAST OUT, and BURNED

NOT my words brother, they are Jesus' words.
- Words from the one who has all authority.
- Words from the one we are abiding in when born-again.
- Confirming if we do not bear fruit, Jesus says, the Father WILL cut us out.

I have explained John 15. Your formulae here implies a works based salvation. You need to meditate on Heb 10:14.

Prior to Christianity, every person on earth was either a repentant or unrepentant sinner. There are numerous (not just John 15) examples of warnings of being blotted out of the book of life, those who harden their heart to repentance being destroyed. To think these type of warnings apply to a NT Christian is absurd. A complete lack of understanding of what a Christian is.

A Christian is a new creation 2 Cor 5:17. We are those who will and have repented at a depth of intent. We are those why did not harden our hearts to the working of the Holy Spirit. We are those who have truly accepted Jesus.

Do you believe God is capable of not judging our hearts Jer 17:9-12 and possibly made a mistake removing the devil and all fallen angels from heaven?

God is not a human that makes these types of mistakes Num 23:19. A Christian is one who is made new, perfected. It is ''not'' the ''glory to glory'' that saves us. Please meditate on Heb 10:14

Heb 10:14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Matthew 23:13-14
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Therefore, as Jesus says in the passage you quoted below, v21, there are going to be many who say 'Lord, Lord' on judgement day, who think they are saved but will clearly not.

Not speaking to Christians as explained above.

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

How can you read this and miss the part where He says ''I never knew you''.

Jesus will ''never'' say that of a Christian. Once more, I urge you to read this thread properly and understand what a Christian is What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

I would honestly love to hear how you define a Christian. It truly does seem as though you believe it is anyone who puts their feet in church.

Argument, you say brother, I thought it was a discussion!

What seems clear to me, is you have a mind-set, I say this in love, you are not willing to consider all scripture, when-ever anything in John 15 is quoted to you, you close your ears to what Jesus is saying, you look for other ways to try get people to believe what you believe, I feel happy saying that as you have actually said that yourself previously.

I have read everything you have put to me, although commendable for your love of God, it is not commendable to argue a point against the very words of Jesus.

Every Word in scripture is God breathed, every word. That is why I carefully read what you put, but it does appear, to be brother, that you are not accepting what Jesus himself said, in John 15:1-17, which was for the benefit of all born-again souls

Shared in Love and Peace

Brother Paul

I find this ironic. I have dealt with your verses, you have yet to deal with mine. Post 5 for example, the entire chapter of 1 Cor 5 proves OSAS.

 

[Waggles]

It would seem that the core of the problem is the definition and understanding of "being saved."
Reading @KingJ posts there are major doctrinal differences about how a person is saved.
For myself I rely on scripture to teach me the truth of this matter ... and I prefer not to add to scripture with church derived theologies.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance,
4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,
5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

Romans 8:24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?
8:25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

Hope = expectation
EXPECTA'TION, n. [L. expectatio.] The act of expecting or looking forward to a future event with at least some reason to believe the event will happen.
1. The state of expecting, either with hope or fear.
2. Prospect of good to come.

Psalm 62:5 For God alone, O my soul, wait in silence, for my hope is from him.
62:6 He only is my rock and my salvation, my fortress; I shall not be shaken.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Greetings brother,

Of what you quote I agree regarding the judgement of none believers.

But regarding John 15:1-17, I have to disagree. John 15 is to our Lord's disciples, those who 'have been' grafted into the vine, when born again.

God is the root of the vine, Jesus is the vine, those who are grafted into the vine are the disciples, the born again, and Jesus states very clearly those who do not bear fruit are cut out or cast out and burned, Jesus disciples, the branches, cannot do anything without Jesus. We must abide in him to bear fruit.

I explained this before, "cast out and burned" means lost in this world controlled by Satan and perishing in this mortal life, for the "wages of sin is death". If you have had any houseplant, you would notice that some branches NATURALLY lose color, wither away and fall off, while other branches remain healthy. Back in the Torah, those Israelites' 40 years in the wilderness was a prophetic picture of any believer's spiritual journey. A lot of them longing to return to Egypt, but none of them did. Therefore, neither can a Christian be "unbaptized" into a heathen. That's a real thing promoted by Satan. True salvation can never be lost.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

It would seem that the core of the problem is the definition and understanding of "being saved."
Reading @KingJ posts there are major doctrinal differences about how a person is saved.
For myself I rely on scripture to teach me the truth of this matter ... and I prefer not to add to scripture with church derived theologies.

I don't care about any doctrine, real salvation is powerful and has effect in real life. If whosoever believes in Yeshua shall have ETERNAL life, then that eternal life starts right here, right now, not after death, because that would be too late. If you wonder whether you're truly saved or not, just ask yourself, are you saved from your demons from the past? Any trauma? Addiction? Substance abuse? Mistreatment? Obsession? Disorder? Is there any positive change in your life? Are you bearing any spiritual fruit? Of course, such improvements are not eternal salvation from sin, but those are SIGNS of true salvation. Without these signs, any definition or understanding is just an ethereal concept in your head and it doesn't matter.

 

[Waggles]

I don't care about any doctrine, real salvation is powerful and has effect in real life. If whosoever believes in Yeshua shall have ETERNAL life, then that eternal life starts right here, right now, not after death, because that would be too late. If you wonder whether you're truly saved or not, just ask yourself, are you saved from your demons from the past? Any trauma? Addiction? Substance abuse? Mistreatment? Obsession? Disorder? Is there any positive change in your life? Are you bearing any spiritual fruit? Of course, such improvements are not eternal salvation from sin, but those are SIGNS of true salvation. Without these signs, any definition or understanding is just an ethereal concept in your head and it doesn't matter.

Actually the more you post the more you seem to support the case against OSAS.
Yes I am Pentecostal - born from above by baptism in water and the Holy Spirit with the sign of speaking in tongues.
I have a marvellous and powerful testimony to being set free from the power of sin and my old life.
But I also know that my salvation is a continuing hope of a promise given by God of eternal life with Jesus when he returns to gather his elect.
Every day requires of me to continue in the love of God and not to grow cold and certainly not to depart from the faith.
Jesus Christ is coming back for his elect - those who endure - those who walk worthy of him - those who with patience wait for the reward - those who overcome - the victorious
Not everybody who starts a marathon race endures until the finish line.

Proverbs 24:10 If you faint in the day of adversity, your strength is small.

 

[Waggles]

Therefore, neither can a Christian be "unbaptized" into a heathen. That's a real thing promoted by Satan. True salvation can never be lost.

True salvation is not achieved on a particular day when a person decides to put into action their repentance and submit to the commandments of Jesus concerning the way of salvation.
Are people saved when we examine NT scripture ?? Forty thousand variations to one doctrine of one baptism given in scripture. clearly outlined in Acts and the epistles.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Amen, Amen, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 What is born of the flesh is flesh; and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said to thee, Ye must be born from above.
8 The Spirit breatheth where he willeth, and thou hearest his voice, but knowest not whence he cometh, and whither he goeth: so is every one born of the Spirit.

True salvation is a reward given to loyal and overcoming disciples when Jesus gathers to himself his elect.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

True salvation is not achieved on a particular day when a person decides to put into action their repentance and submit to the commandments of Jesus concerning the way of salvation.

That's the job of the Holy Spirit, the most misunderstood entity of the trinity. Although we're heard that Yeshua is with us all the time, that is the Holy Spirit acting on behalf of Him in His ABSENCE, according to John 16:6-15. The truth is, Yeshua is NOT with us, He's in heaven at the right hand of the Father, meanwhile Holy Spirit is with us. True salvation is not the endpoint, not an insurance policy, not a ticket to heaven, but the BEGINNING of spiritual life, and only by the power of the Spirit can we "put into action their repentance and submit to the commandments of Yeshua".

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Actually the more you post the more you seem to support the case against OSAS.
Yes I am Pentecostal - born from above by baptism in water and the Holy Spirit with the sign of speaking in tongues.
I have a marvellous and powerful testimony to being set free from the power of sin and my old life.
But I also know that my salvation is a continuing hope of a promise given by God of eternal life with Jesus when he returns to gather his elect.
Every day requires of me to continue in the love of God and not to grow cold and certainly not to depart from the faith.
Jesus Christ is coming back for his elect - those who endure - those who walk worthy of him - those who with patience wait for the reward - those who overcome - the victorious
Not everybody who starts a marathon race endures until the finish line.

Proverbs 24:10 If you faint in the day of adversity, your strength is small.

Maybe it's just a matter of semantics. In my study, what you call salvation is usually referred to as "sanctification". Salvation is instant, sanctification is a lifetime process. Again, the prototype of that is in the Torah, salvation is the exodus from Egypt, sanctification is the journey in the wilderness. They shall not be confused with one another.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

dp

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

By the way, I gotta warn you that non-OSAS belief is DANGEROUS, it espouses work based religion. You know why Yeshua in always on the cross in Roman Catholics? Why they had to sacrifice him with the bread and wine at every Eucharist? Because they don't believe in OSAS, they have to regularly reattain salvation. That nullifies salvation and glorifies futile works of self-righteousness.

 

[Waggles]

By the way, I gotta warn you that non-OSAS belief is DANGEROUS, it espouses work based religion. You know why Yeshua in always on the cross in Roman Catholics? Why they had to sacrifice him with the bread and wine at every Eucharist? Because they don't believe in OSAS, they have to regularly reattain salvation. That nullifies salvation and glorifies futile works of self-righteousness.

No it is the other way around - OSAS is dangerous because it is false doctrine. Apostasy, even slothfulness are great enemies of the Spirit-filled disciple.
And as I am not Roman Catholic the peculiarities of their salvation doctrine is not applicable to me.
You still refuse to read scripture with understanding concerning becoming a disciple and then walking on in newness of life until the last day.
Salvation is a great reward for those that continue in the love of God and in faithfulness.
That is scripture over theology.

That eternal security is not unconditional is proved
(1) by repeated warnings to believers against doctrinal and moral apostasy;
(2) by the presence of "if" clauses (+Matt 4:9 note. +*2Peter 1:10);
(3) Paul’s repeated concern that his labour not be in vain (1Thess 3:5 note);
(4) by the recorded instances of individuals who departed from true faith (+*Heb 10:38);
(5) because believing or saving faith is always represented in Greek as a continuing active faith, not a single or one time act of faith (John 3:16 note);
(6) because Jesus said it is possible to stop believing (+*Luke 8:13).
To suggest, as many contemporary expositors do, that the warnings against apostasy in the book of Hebrews were addressed only to Jewish Christians who were in danger of forsaking Christianity and falling back into Judaism, and therefore cannot apply to believers today, is at best a shaky assumption, and at worst is taking away from the Word of God by wrongly rendering its warnings inapplicable to present day believers.
As the warnings against apostasy are addressed with greater frequency to the Gentile Christians addressed in Paul’s epistles (+*1Cor 15:2), such an argument has no force.
To deny the force of the warning in Heb 6:4-6 by relegating the Apostle’s argument to a "reductio ad absurdum," or reduction to an absurdity, is begging the question, as Spiros Zodhiates does in a footnote in his otherwise excellent work (The Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible, pp. 1496, 1497).
Few readers of that day or this would be in position to appreciate such a display of the niceties of rhetoric as the argument necessarily supposes was the author’s intention. Such interpreters, in their mistaken effort to support the theory of unconditional eternal security, ignore, suppress, or explain away all contrary evidence (2Peter 1:20 note, in violation of Rule 4).
Such a procedure is invalid because, by its practice, the interpreter makes it impossible for God to assert a contrary truth. No matter how God might choose to express such a truth, the interpreter intent on defending this mistaken theory would explain the language away.
An example of a clever but mistaken attempt to escape the logical consequences of this passage (1Tim 4:1) is the effort to redefine the Greek terms for apostasy used here and at 2Thess 2:3 to mean "stand aloof from," making the reference to be to persons who were never believers, but simply those who associated with the Christians (Spiros Zodhiates, The Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible, p. 1468, note on 2Th_2:3).
Zodhiates’ redefinition also involves him in the exegetical "word study" fallacy discussed by D. A. Carson as "The Root Fallacy" (Exegetical Fallacies, pp. 26-32). Such a redefinition is rendered necessary by the exigencies of the theory of unconditional eternal security, as Zodhiates’ ensuing arguments using John 10:28, Rom 8:38-39, etc., show.
This view is in error for the word "apostasy," in Greek, apostasia, in its religious use necessarily includes a prior turning to God (Heinrich Schlier, TDNT, vol. 1, p. 513, note 4), a concept rendered certain here by the next words "from the faith." +1Tim 1:19, +1Sam 15:11, Dan 11:35; Dan 11:38, Matt 24:5-12, +**Luke 8:13 g. John 5:24; John 10:27-28, +**1Cor 6:9-11; +*1Cor 15:2, 1Thess 3:5, 2Thess 2:3 g. 2Tim 3:1-5; 2Tim 4:4; 2Tim 4:10, +*Heb 3:12; Heb 10:26; +Heb 10:38; and Heb 10:39, +*2Peter 1:10, 1John 3:9, *Rev 3:8.
The Ultimate Cross-Reference Treasury by Jerome H. Smith © 2004

 

[Waggles]

The truth is, Yeshua is NOT with us, He's in heaven at the right hand of the Father, meanwhile Holy Spirit is with us.

Good grief - here you are espousing OSAS in denial of the scriptures
And failing to understand scripture is a great failure for it leads to false doctrines such as OSAS.

John 14:18 I [Y'shua] will not leave you orphans: I come unto you.
In that day YE shall know that I am in my Father, and YE in me, and I [Y'shua] in you. John 14:20
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, If any love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

No it is the other way around - OSAS is dangerous because it is false doctrine. Apostasy, even slothfulness are great enemies of the Spirit-filled disciple.
And as I am not Roman Catholic the peculiarities of their salvation doctrine is not applicable to me.
You still refuse to read scripture with understanding concerning becoming a disciple and then walking on in newness of life until the last day.
Salvation is a great reward for those that continue in the love of God and in faithfulness.
That is scripture over theology.

You don't understand the difference between salvation and sanctification. Salvation is NOT the end goal, but the beginning of sanctification, that's why it's compared with birth, the beginning of life. The final reward is the holy priesthood with Christ in the kingdom. Those who fail to walk the narrow path will receive judgement from Christ, as written in the seven letters in Rev. 2-3, and the punishment will be harsher than that for the heathens, according to the rule in Luke 12:48. Again, you think salvation can be lost because a lot of Christians practice in a work based religion instead of a relationship with Christ, and all those works are denied by Christ. The love of Christ is UNconditional, any good work is produced from that love, not the other way around.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Good grief - here you are espousing OSAS in denial of the scriptures
And failing to understand scripture is a great failure for it leads to false doctrines such as OSAS.

John 14:18 I [Y'shua] will not leave you orphans: I come unto you.
In that day YE shall know that I am in my Father, and YE in me, and I [Y'shua] in you. John 14:20
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, If any love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

John 16:5-7 "But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, where are you going? But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. Nevertheless I tell you the TRUTH, it is to your advantage that I GO AWAY; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you."

 

[KingJ]

It would seem that the core of the problem is the definition and understanding of "being saved."
Reading @KingJ posts there are major doctrinal differences about how a person is saved.
For myself I rely on scripture to teach me the truth of this matter ... and I prefer not to add to scripture with church derived theologies.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance,
4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,
5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

Romans 8:24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?
8:25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

Hope = expectation
EXPECTA'TION, n. [L. expectatio.] The act of expecting or looking forward to a future event with at least some reason to believe the event will happen.
1. The state of expecting, either with hope or fear.
2. Prospect of good to come.

Psalm 62:5 For God alone, O my soul, wait in silence, for my hope is from him.
62:6 He only is my rock and my salvation, my fortress; I shall not be shaken.

You can't muster up faith to believe a man who walked the earth 2000 years ago is the Messiah / God of the universe.

It is a faith given and only given to those who pass judgement of heart for true repentance of sin. As explained here What is a Christian and how do you become one?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

For myself I rely on scripture to teach me the truth of this matter ... and I prefer not to add to scripture with church derived theologies.

Trust me, man, Sola Scriptura is my jam, the living words of God in the Scripture is always my guide and reference. However, information is NOT transformation, for the word kills, but the spirit leads to life. At the end of day, every believer must ask himself this same question that Yeshua asked Simon Peter: "Who do YOU say that I am?" That requires a PERSONAL understanding of God's character manifested in Yeshua, and guess what, that's the definition of the word "theology" - knowledge of God. In addition to KingJ's contribution, I explained what it means to be a Christian as well in this thread: What is a Christian? An heir of Abraham under the New Covenant!.

The key point is, don't think too much about ourselves, how we can get saved, what we should do, but focus primarily on Yeshua who loved us and died for us. President Kennedy once told us, "ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." That is a timeless quote, but it was derived from work-based Catholic theology. When it comes to our relationship with Yeshua, the order must be reversed, what we must ask first is what Yeshua HAS DONE for us, then ask what we can do - not to repay him, but to honor him. There're a lot of false versions of Yeshua out there, exactly as Yeshua warned in Matt. 24:23-25, only the Holy Spirit can reveal the true Yeshua to you and lead you down the narrow path of His righteousness.

 

[Brother-Paul]

There was no such thing as a Christian at the time of Jesus. So, there can be no OSAS vs non-OSAS debates with passages like John 15. It is repentant verse unrepentant sinners.

I agree there was no such thing as, a Christian, by name, at the time of Jesus.

There are however 58 verses that refer to following Jesus, we also have Jesus' words in Matthew 4:18-21

18 And Jesus, walking by the Sea of Galilee, saw two brothers, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen.
19 Then He (Jesus) said to them, “Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men.”
20 They immediately left their nets and followed Him.
21 Going on from there, He saw two other brothers, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in the boat with Zebedee their father, mending their nets. He called them, 22 and immediately they left the boat and their father, and followed Him.

Follow me, Christ Jesus, was a command from the Lord. Therefore all those who followed Jesus, following His Command, were 'followers of Christ'

The context of all pre-cross ''falling away'' is akin to examples like the angels falling, people hardening their hearts to repentance of sin.

There is more to it than that brother, I will look into your comment here another day.

As explained here in post 13 Question for non-OSAS believers, our names are all written in the lambs book from birth. Cutting branches off a tree thus refer to being removed from the book of life. Unrepentant sinners verse repentant sinners. A Christian is the very definition of a repentant sinner.

As Christians post-cross, if we are evildoers, Jesus would say He never knew us Matt 7:23. Or as Paul says in 1 Cor 5:11 when addressing the church, there are ''brethren so called'' in attendance.

There are eight references in New Testament to the 'Book of Life' , 2 refer specifically to the book of life that belongs to the Lamb, Jesus Christ.
There are 7 references appear in the book of Revelation.
Those whose names are written in the book of life are those who belong to God, those who have attained eternal life.

But who knows the Names in the Book of Life, God only... there has been some debate on this also as we know.

A verse that often crops up on this topic is, Philippians 4:3

Be United, Joyful, and in Prayer​

2 I implore Euodia and I implore Syntyche to be of the same mind in the Lord.
3 And I urge you also, true companion, help these women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life.
4 Rejoice in the Lord always. Again I will say, rejoice!
5 Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.
6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; 7 and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

The only way to be assured that our names will be in the Book of Life is to be dedicated followers of Jesus Christ.
The only way to be assured that our names will be in the Book of Life is to Abide in Him so He can abide in us, and so that we can bear fruit to bring Glory to God.
The only way to be assured that our names will be in the Book of Life is to repent of all our sins, from our heart, be born again of water and spirt, proclaim our faith with our lips and from our heart, we must be spiritually regenerated, we must 'follow Jesus', we must follow His Commands, which includes we must abide in Him, John 15 clearly explains what happens if we fall away and wither in Faith and following Jesus.

Trust in the Lord with all our heart and lean not on our own understanding, in all our ways acknowledge Him and He will guide our paths in this world and bring us to salvation and eternal life with Him.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Christian does not simply mean follower of Jesus.

Are you proposing that Judas was a Christian? Someone as explained here What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

Regarding Judas, Judas followed Jesus, he was one of the twelve disciples as we know.

Yes, he was a follower of Jesus, we know what he did, but do not know how long he did it.

Jesus appointed Judas as trustee, Jesus knew how it would end, but it does not mean he was a thief from the beginning. It is common in this day and age and probably many other times in history, to brand a name upon a person because of something they have done.

Thomas is a good example to this...

John 20:27 [NKJV]
24 Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.”
So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”

26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!”
27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

One statement, on that day, and he is 'branded' doubting Thomas for the rest of time.

John 12:4-6 [NKJV]
4 But one of His disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, who would betray Him, said,
5 “Why was this fragrant oil not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?”
6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and had the money box; and he used to take what was put in it.

He used to take was put in can be mis-understood. If he took all of the money he would have been found out straight away, he used to take was put in no doubt means he took some of the money that was put in.

John 12:6 [MSG]
He said this not because he cared two cents about the poor but because he was a thief. He was in charge of their common funds, but also embezzled them.

I would say Peter certainly was. Matt 16:16-17 is clear that God gave him a revelation of Jesus as the Messiah. Something all Christians receive 1 Cor 12:3. Something Judas did not receive.

Peter and John etc

 

[Brother-Paul]

You are correct when you say all scripture is God breathed.

ALL scripture, I take it brother.
You are it seems from your replies, rejecting Jesus' words in John 15, about the vine, the need to abide, and the Father cutting out those who were saved and have returned to sin.

Heb 6 sheds light on Heb 10.

Heb 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit.

Note how it refers to those who were '''enlightened''' with the truth. Have '''tasted''' the heavenly gift. Have ''shared'' in the Holy Spirit. Does this sound like a Christian?

A Christian has ''accepted'' the truth. Not merely been enlightened. A Christian has not ''tasted'' the heavenly gift, they have entered eternal life / eaten the gift 1 John 5:11. A Christian does not ''share'' in the Holy Spirit. They are enveloped. He is their guide into all truth John 16:13.

Heb 10 is thus referring to those who have tasted, shared in and heard the truth. Those who have put their feet in church a couple of times. Those who are now 'inoculated' to the truth as they have ''been there, got the t-shirt''. Certainly not true Christians as explained here What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

A Christian is a new creation 2 Cor 5:17.

Let us look at Hebrew 6 brother...

The Peril of Not Progressing​

Hebrews 6:1-8 [NKJV]
Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

And this we will do if God permits.

v4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Single verses at times can give an incorrect ideal to the actual context.

Here we see the build up of the believer, the born-again soul, the one who has tasted and liked the abiding in Christ and He to abide in them

But then we see the words... 'IF THEY FALL AWAY' what if they fall back into sin and the world and fail to abide in Jesus the vine?

Simple, they cannot be crucified in Christ again, they have withered as stated in John 15, they are rejected, they are cut out and collected to be burned. Again see John 15:1-17

A 'new creation' brother needs to be nourished, needs to be fed, Jesus explains this with the Vine and the branches, we must abide in Him, failure to do so means we have cut ourselves off from God, from Jesus, we wither, we die, we are collected and burned. Each one removed from the vine, is as it states in verse 8, rejected and near to being cursed.

The issue seems to be, your mind is set brother, you are rejecting Jesus' words in John 15, you quote some verses out of context, you want to believe once saved always saved even though other scriptures say the opposite. Providing you are born again, having been baptised of water and spirit, proclaimed your faith and rejected satan, and continue to abide in the vine, in Jesus, so He can abide in you; providing you obey his commands no need not be concerned. I look forward to meeting you brother.

But, and here is the but, the teaching of OSAS is not only a false belief; even worse, preaching such can misguide others to believing they are saved, even if they return to sin and the world of sin. Very dangerous I believe brother.