Non-OSAS belief - undermines the cross

[B-A-C]

Actually they don't. If you think more is required of us, you do not understand what a Christian is.

I agree, one of us doesn't. ..and so we have come full circle again.

 

[KingJ]

Num 16:28; Moses said, "By this you shall know that the LORD has sent me to do all these deeds; for this is not my doing.
Num 16:29; "If these men die the death of all men or if they suffer the fate of all men, then the LORD has not sent me.
Num 16:30; "But if the LORD brings about an entirely new thing and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that is theirs, and they descend alive into Sheol, then you will understand that these men have spurned the LORD."
Num 16:31; As he finished speaking all these words, the ground that was under them split open;
Num 16:32; and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, and their households, and all the men who belonged to Korah with their possessions.
Num 16:33; So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.

The LORD opened up the earth, and these men ( and their households ) went down alive to sheol. Is God good?

Yes, they were sold out to a love of what is evil. Nothing wrong with honoring the free will of those who love what is evil. Hell is evidence of love. It is a home for the wicked.

Num 16:46; Moses said to Aaron, "Take your censer and put in it fire from the altar, and lay incense on it; then bring it quickly to the congregation and make atonement for them, for wrath has gone forth from the LORD, the plague has begun!"
Num 16:47; Then Aaron took it as Moses had spoken, and ran into the midst of the assembly, for behold, the plague had begun among the people. So he put on the incense and made atonement for the people.
Num 16:48; He took his stand between the dead and the living, so that the plague was checked.
Num 16:49; But those who died by the plague were 14,700, besides those who died on account of Korah.

The wrath of God fell on these people and 14,700 died because of a plague from God. Is God good?

Plagues are an act of goodness for sure.

God sends plagues in an attempt to change the hearts of men. Eternal hell is worse. He sends plagues at increasing levels of severity.

Those who died here, must have been sold out to what is evil / beyond all hope. As scripture alludes to in a verse like Gen 15:16.

2Kin 2:23; Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, "Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!"
2Kin 2:24; When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number.

42 children were making fun of Elisha, Elisha cursed them "in the name of the LORD", and bear came out and killed these 42 kids. Is God good?

God ''killed'' swiftly. Graphic, sure, but swift. We also know that children go straight to heaven. So, considering all, yes, God is definitely good.

Deut 29:22; "Now the generation to come, your sons who rise up after you and the foreigner who comes from a distant land, when they see the plagues of the land and the diseases with which the LORD has afflicted it, will say,
Deut 29:23; 'All its land is brimstone and salt, a burning waste, unsown and unproductive, and no grass grows in it, like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in His anger and in His wrath.'
Deut 29:24; "All the nations will say, 'Why has the LORD done thus to this land? Why this great outburst of anger?'
Deut 29:25; "Then men will say, 'Because they forsook the covenant of the LORD, the God of their fathers, which He made with them when He brought them out of the land of Egypt.
Deut 29:26; 'They went and served other gods and worshiped them, gods whom they have not known and whom He had not allotted to them.
Deut 29:27; 'Therefore, the anger of the LORD burned against that land, to bring upon it every curse which is written in this book;
Deut 29:28; and the LORD uprooted them from their land in anger and in fury and in great wrath, and cast them into another land, as it is this day.'

The anger of the LORD burned against this land, and He brings every curse written in this book (the Torah) against them. Is God good?

All the curses of the law were good, just and righteous. Is there one you think is not?

Quick deaths, punishment according to the type of sin committed.

Gen 19:24; Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven,
Gen 19:25; and He overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.
Gen 19:26; But his wife, from behind him, looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.
Gen 19:27; Now Abraham arose early in the morning and went to the place where he had stood before the LORD;
Gen 19:28; and he looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the valley, and he saw, and behold, the smoke of the land ascended like the smoke of a furnace.
Gen 19:29; Thus it came about, when God destroyed the cities of the valley, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when He overthrew the cities in which Lot lived.

The LORD rains down fire and brimstone of two entire cities, and just leaves them as smoking ash. Is God good?

He burns them quickly, as verse 28 clarifies ''Sodom was like a furnace''.

Nothing wrong in relocating those sold out to a love of what is evil to Hades.

2Sam 12:15 So Nathan went to his house. Then the LORD struck the child that Uriah's widow bore to David, so that he was very sick.
2Sam 12:16 David therefore inquired of God for the child; and David fasted and went and lay all night on the ground.
2Sam 12:17 The elders of his household stood beside him in order to raise him up from the ground, but he was unwilling and would not eat food with them.
2Sam 12:18 Then it happened on the seventh day that the child died. And the servants of David were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they said, "Behold, while the child was still alive, we spoke to him and he did not listen to our voice. How then can we tell him that the child is dead, since he might do himself harm!"

God struck down an innocent baby, the baby itself did no sin. Is God good?

Quick death, straight to heaven. No issues.

There are dozens more stories like this in the old testament. What happened to those who worshipped the golden calf?
What happened to Achan after the battle of Ai? Is God good? How about the flood, God nearly wipes out all mankind. Is God good?

1Sam16:14; Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD terrorized him.

God sent an evil spirit down to terrorize Saul, is God good?

Flood = quick death, relocating the wicked, children and animals go to heaven, Yes, no evil.

The evil spirit sent to Saul is inline with something like a plague. God's trying to teach a lesson, pull repentance out. If God had no hope for Saul, it would be written that Saul was killed. No evil, ironically love. Tough love for sure.

What about the New Testament?

Acts 5:3; But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?
Acts 5:4; "While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
Acts 5:5; And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it.
Acts 5:6; The young men got up and covered him up, and after carrying him out, they buried him.
Acts 5:7; Now there elapsed an interval of about three hours, and his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.
Acts 5:8; And Peter responded to her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for such and such a price?" And she said, "Yes, that was the price."
Acts 5:9; Then Peter said to her, "Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well."
Acts 5:10; And immediately she fell at his feet and breathed her last, and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.
Acts 5:11; And great fear came over the whole church, and over all who heard of these things.

Ananias and Sapphira were struck down ( dead ) because they lied about the price of land. Is God good?

Instant death. No evil.

Acts 12:21; On an appointed day Herod, having put on his royal apparel, took his seat on the rostrum and began delivering an address to them.
Acts 12:22; The people kept crying out, "The voice of a god and not of a man!"
Acts 12:23; And immediately an angel of the Lord struck him because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and died.

God struck Herod down (he died) because he did not give God glory. Is God good?

Instant death, no evil.

Herod's act was at a depth of rebellion. Speaking to a type of mortal sin. As was Ananias and Sapphira.

Jer 17:9-11 explains that only God can judge depths of intents. He clearly does this with these people.

 

[Waggles]

I suspect @KingJ that even if Jesus himself told you that OSAS is not true you would still argue over the matter.

 

[KingJ]

Rev 14:10; he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Some people will be "tormented" and face the wrath of God. .. God Himself will watch as this happens. Is God good?

Torment I explain in post 21 here What is hell?.

God does not torture. Weeping and gnashing of teeth for example is from separation Luke 13:28. A consequence of a wicked persons free will.

Not only God, there is scripture that mentions angels will watch too. This should tell us that God has nothing to hide / is an open book. If what He does is evil, all scripture that says He is good and the word of God itself would be a lie.

1Sam 15:2; "Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt.
1Sam 15:3; 'Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'"

God told Saul to kill the Amalakites. Even the women and children. Is God good?

When the Hebrews 'destroyed' their enemies, it was done swiftly. It was necessary, God had to protect His people from those that wanted to destroy them.

The Amalakites were very evil. What they did was evil, any person with a working brain will agree.

There is no evil in God if He removes the wicked from the earth. Sadly children and animals are victims of this. I guess in some instances woman could also be.

What we do know, is that God is a righteous judge 2 Tim 4:8 that will judge all righteously and according to what each of them did Rom 2:6

Exod 20:5; "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
Deut 5:9; 'You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

God will make the children and grandchildren pay for what their fathers did. Is God good?

There is a lot of context needed for this. We know today, just by looking at ''unGodly'' nations that children suffer the curse.

Africa, South America, most of Asia, cursed with poverty and victims of / come off second best in any war that is waged.

USA, Britain and most of Catholic Europe, blessed, blessed and blessed in comparison.

This is truly a nothing burger.

We know that if anyone be in Christ, all the curses against them fall away Gal 3:13. The same would apply to anyone in the OT who followed a verse like Psalm 51:17.

Mic 5:15; "And I will execute vengeance in anger and wrath On the nations which have not obeyed."
Heb 12:29; for our God is a consuming fire.

I have given dozens of examples here, and there are dozens more I could have added. But at the end of the day... is God good?

Yes, God is good. Nothing wrong with giving the wicked a quick death / being a consuming fire to them.

If God was a slow and torturous fire, sure. Evil. But He is not. Nowhere in scripture has God tortured anyone sold out to what is evil. Plagues can be seen as torture, but we know from simply looking at those placed on Egypt, God's motivation is good. He wants to try get people to repent and turn to Him before it is too late. He clearly does this for those whom He believes are not yet completely sold out to a love of what is evil.

A Christian needs to properly explain the A-Z of each instance. I have provided short statements, but if there is any you want to further discuss just shout.

Do we we serve a "good" God? The answer to that question determines who is God in your mind.

If our interpretation of "good" matches everything God does. Then God is good, and God is God in our lives.
If our interpretation of "good" is based on what we thing good is, and it doesn't agree with who/what the Bible says God is... now we have made ourselves a god
who is trying judge God. If it isn't "logical" that God would do these things according to our logic, then our logic is faulty.

Every instance of God's wrath mentioned in scripture can be defended.

It is when we collate many instances and do not properly deal with each one that we become guilty of cherry picking and misrepresenting God.

If our idea of good and evil is not the same as God's, then Gen 3:22 is false.

============================================

Rev 19:11; And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.
Rev 19:12; His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself.
Rev 19:13; He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14; And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.
Rev 19:15; From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
Rev 19:16; And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

Is God good?

You have to understand that when a good God rules with a ''rod of iron'' it is not the same as an evil dictator's ''rod of iron''. God is a rod of iron on......turning the left cheek, loving neighbor as yourself.

 

[KingJ]

52 verses in post # 96.

Thanks for your effort in post 96, sorry I missed it.

 

[KingJ]

I suspect @KingJ that even if Jesus himself told you that OSAS is not true you would still argue over the matter.

If Jesus said OSAS was not true, I would ask Him how He then expects us to trust His eternal love for us, when all He has done to show it is a single action of death on a cross.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

True what he came to accomplish, is FINISHED. But what did he accomplish?

Jesus came to fulfil both the law and the prophets, and to announce Himself as God's anointed King and firstborn Son.
He came to pay the price for sin and to seek and to save all who would believe on His name for He alone was God's acceptable ransom price for sin, and He alone could bear witness to God's truth.

He came to do the will of His Father and to demonstrate God's incredible love to humanity, by being a light to the darkened world so that all who believe on His name
- would not abide in darkness
- but receive the glorious light of His abundant life.

He came to proclaim the good news of the kingdom of God and to demonstrate God's unique standard of perfection.

He also came in the role of righteous judge and the divider of men.

John 3:3 & 5
“Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

John 18:19
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Romans 12:19
Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

2 Thessalonians 1:8
In flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

John 15
As discussed, Jesus explains the vine, as born again souls we are grafted in, why? To bear fruit to bring Glory to God.

Jesus using the Vine, root & vine plus branches, cleasrly tells us if we do not abide, if we do not bear fruit we will wither, we will be 'cut out' collected together and burned.
It is a warning to all who are grafted into the vine, without Jesus we can do nothing.

The Peril of Not Progressing​

Hebrews 6:1-8
Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
And this we will do if God permits.

For it is impossible
for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Yes, they can fall away, fail to abide in the goodness of the vine, in doing so they will wither, they will be 'cut out' they will die, not only that...
It would then be impossible to be saved again, since they crucify the Son of God, cut him out due to their wickedness, there falling back into sin.
Once a saved soul goes back to sin, the world and the devil, they have sealed their destiny, cut off from Christ and eternal life for all eternity.

OSAS is false teaching, it is not in scripture. As we can see, saved souls can lost their salvation, as many of us have show with scripture in past and present threads.

Shalom

With all due respect, brother, you failed to recognize different judgements to the unbelievers and to the apostate believers. Unbelievers have never abided in Christ in the first place, and what’s the Lord’s response to them? “Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness, I NEVER knew you!” But to the apostate believers, it’s written in the letters to the five bad churches, particularly Laodicea in regard to the message in John 15 about cutting them off: “because you’re neither hot nor cold, I will vomit you out of my mouth.” However, that is NOT the final verdict. Yeshua still offers opportunities to repent. He’s knocking at the door, he who has an ear will hear and welcome him into his heart. Therefore, just because one is saved doesn’t mean free of divine judgement. Salvation is NOT about absence of sin, but the ability to OVERCOME sin by the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I quote scripture that confirms OSAS is wrong and dangerous thinking brother

I can quote verse upon verse that supports OSAS as well, e.g. “nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Yeshua HaMessiach our Lord,” Rom. 8:38-39. It was told that you can quote Scripture to support anything, including genocide, slavery or abortion. Even Satan quoted Scripture, and he knows it better than any man. Therefore copy-paste walls of text of Scripture is useless, what’s important is your understanding of God’s character and promise, known as “theology”. It is imperative to draw connection and let the Scripture interpret itself. I know OSAS is true because God made a new covenant with his people through the blood of his only son, and that can never be broken. That’s his character. It’s not in just one or two verses, but in the entire Bible from Genesis to Revelation.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

So then you are confirming that OSAS is not true. Those who are saved can lose the reward of eternal life with Jesus.

No, that depends on your understanding of salvation and reward in 1 Cor 3:14-15:

If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward; if anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.”

Therefore, all who believe in Christ will have eternal life nonetheless, but those who abide with Christ will rule with him, those who fail to bear fruit are the goyim - “nations” that will BE ruled - with a rod of iron (Rev. 12:5)

 

[B-A-C]

If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward; if anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.”

Hmmm.. "anyone" in this context? The verse above is true for the "saved". However, not everyone is saved. That's universalism.

Rev 20:15; And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 14:11; "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Matt 7:13; "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt 7:14; "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

 

[B-A-C]

Yes, God is good. Nothing wrong with giving the wicked a quick death / being a consuming fire to them.

Agreed... but is it always quick? Somehow we have moved from OSAS back to what qualifies God as good. A dangerous discussion to have when we start judging God.

Rev 20:10; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 14:11; "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Matt 25:46; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Eternal punishment, tormented forever, no rest night and day forever... doesn't sound very temporary.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Hmmm.. "anyone" in this context? The verse above is true for the "saved". However, not everyone is saved. That's universalism.

Rev 20:15; And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 14:11; "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Matt 7:13; "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt 7:14; "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

This message is the same as "house built on a rock" in the last line of the Sermon on the Mount given by Yeshua, and last time I checked, 1 Corinthians was addressed to the Corinthian CHURCH. Doesn't seem to be "everyone" to me. Again, only those who believe in Yeshua are saved (Jn. 3:16-17). The challenge is that there're many false gospels and false Jesuses these days which are specifically warned in the Scripture, such as the demonic New Age movement that has been gaining steam and infiltrated in a lot of churches. Believing in a false messiah and accepting a false gospel will surely lead to condemnation instead of salvation.

 

[KingJ]

Agreed... but is it always quick? Somehow we have moved from OSAS back to what qualifies God as good. A dangerous discussion to have when we start judging God.

Rev 20:10; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 14:11; "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Matt 25:46; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Eternal punishment, tormented forever, no rest night and day forever... doesn't sound very temporary.

We accept God because we judge Him as good. If God was evil or a mix of good and evil, I would not serve Him as I do and I don't believe you would either.

I have explained torment in hell before, please see post 21 here What is hell?, I touch on it.

The torment in hell that all the wicked experience will be the work of a good God. Something any good person would agree with. We need to stop insinuating that what God will do in the future will not be good. He has never been 'wicked' with punishment. He is righteous in all His ways to the exclusion of none Psalm 145:17.

 

[KingJ]

I just want to tone down my accusation of God that non-OSAS implies as it can suggest a non-OSAS believer has this view of God (Wicked fool).

None of us are God who can judge depths of a persons heart Jer 17:9-11. It is understandable that many Christians that truly love the Lord believe in non-OSAS.

We know each other by our works Matt 7:20. If I see someone in unrepentant sin, I would say they are not saved and en route to hell. A non-OSAS believer would say they are shipwrecking their salvation and also en route to hell. We would both be compelled to reach out to the sinner with warnings in love, from scripture.

Paul does certainly not beat around the bush. He says 1 Cor 10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall and that any who are unrepentant in sin will not be in heaven 1 Cor 6:9-12.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Why do you say God is love?

If you think sending a committed Christian who provides impeccable service for many years to an eternal hell after one or two mortal sins, ''love', you really have some explaining to do.

Which, none of you are doing. Even after I created a thread for that exact purpose Question for non-OSAS believers.

Dear brother,

Put God first brother, listen to Jesus, all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to him.

I quote the scriptures; I quote what Jesus has said, still says because it is in 'The Word' and 'He is The Word.'

Why do you therefore ignore what our Lord is saying?

How do you interpret John 15:1-17 brother? Keep to the scripture, keep to what He tells us.

Brother Paul

 

[KingJ]

Dear brother,

Put God first brother, listen to Jesus, all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to him.

I quote the scriptures; I quote what Jesus has said, still says because it is in 'The Word' and 'He is The Word.'

Why do you therefore ignore what our Lord is saying?

How do you interpret John 15:1-17 brother? Keep to the scripture, keep to what He tells us.

Brother Paul

Please see post 78.

 

[Brother-Paul]

With all due respect, brother, you failed to recognize different judgements to the unbelievers and to the apostate believers. Unbelievers have never abided in Christ in the first place, and what’s the Lord’s response to them? “Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness, I NEVER knew you!” But to the apostate believers, it’s written in the letters to the five bad churches, particularly Laodicea in regard to the message in John 15 about cutting them off: “because you’re neither hot nor cold, I will vomit you out of my mouth.” However, that is NOT the final verdict. Yeshua still offers opportunities to repent. He’s knocking at the door, he who has an ear will hear and welcome him into his heart. Therefore, just because one is saved doesn’t mean free of divine judgement. Salvation is NOT about absence of sin, but the ability to OVERCOME sin by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Greetings brother,

Of what you quote I agree regarding the judgement of none believers.

But regarding John 15:1-17, I have to disagree. John 15 is to our Lord's disciples, those who 'have been' grafted into the vine, when born again.

God is the root of the vine, Jesus is the vine, those who are grafted into the vine are the disciples, the born again, and Jesus states very clearly those who do not bear fruit are cut out or cast out and burned, Jesus disciples, the branches, cannot do anything without Jesus. We must abide in him to bear fruit.

The True Vine​

John 15:1-17 (NKJV)
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean (Disciples/born again souls) because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is 'cast out' as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

Love and Joy Perfected​

9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.
10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

11 “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full.
12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.
14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.
15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.
16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
17 These things I command you, that you love one another.

Jesus emphasises the important of abiding in Him, abiding in the vine and bearing fruit, most of the following are in the first 9 verses
Abide - 8
Abides – 2
abide in Me – 4
abide in you – 1

fruit - 8
bear fruit - 2

ROOT [GOD] >>>>> VINE [JESUS] >>>>> BRANCH [DISCIPLE / BORN AGAIN SOUL] >>>>> BEAR FRUIT FOR GOD
v2 - every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
v9 - “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.
[FED FROM ROOT to VINE to BRANCHES [SAP/HOLY SPIRIT]

ROOT [GOD] >>>>> VINE [JESUS] > > FAIL TO BEAR FRUIT, WITHERS, CUT OUT/CAST OUT and BURNED
v2 - Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
v4 - Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
v6 - If anyone does not abide in Me, he is 'cast out' as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
[THE FATHER, THE VINE DRESSER, THE GARDENER, PRUNES TO BEAR MORE FRUIT and CUTS OUT THOSE WHO ARE WITHERING and NOT BEARING FRUIT for GOD]

v11 - “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full.

This section of scripture cannot be ignored,
- it is by Jesus who has all authority
- it is very graphic
- it is very clear
- it is to those who are His, the grafted in ones
- it carries good news to all who are His and continue to abide and bear fruit
- it carries a warning, don't bear fruit, fall back into sin and the world, you will be cut out, cast out, collected and burned.

We can do nothing to save ourself.
We can do nothing unless we continue to abide in Jesus.

But we can be cut out, cast out and burned if we don't.

All who continue to abide in Jesus, the vine, have nothing to fear

In His Love

Brother Paul

 

[Brother-Paul]

@Brother-Paul

Regarding John 15, I assume you are referring to these verses:

John 15:1-8“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

This does not come close to disproving OSAS. If anyone thinks it does it tells me they do not know what a Christian is. As explained here What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

In this story, the Christian ''is'' the fertile soil Matt 8:23 The seed that fell on good soil represents those who truly hear and understand God’s word and produce a harvest of thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times as much as had been planted!

Christian can't but bear good fruit because of its seed. Matt 17:7 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

Jesus is making the point in John 15:1-8 that no bad trees / vines will be in heaven. We know this, a classic example is the fallen angels removed or those who call on His name ''being evildoers'' Matt 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Note how it says ''I never knew you''. God will never say this of a true Christian.

As such John 15:1-8 is not stating that Christians will be removed. It is stating that unless we are true Christians, we will be removed.

You are not reading John 15 brother, you are trying to look at other verses, which you kindly quote, but to fit your thinking.

The parable of the soils is clearly defining just that.

John 15 is not referring to the soil, it is another message in another parable, clearly showing us, the close link we must have...
With God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

GOD - in the parable, is described as the root, (also called the lump elsewhere) where all the goodness comes from for the vine and its fruit.

JESUS - in the parable, is clearly described in the parable, as the vine, closely connected and abiding.

The HOLY SPIRIT, is the sap in the vine, providing goodness to the vine from the root, then to the productive branches.

The FATHER, is the Vine Dresser, the gardener, the one who tends to the vine, pruning the fruitful to make more fruitful, or cutting and casting out the unfruitful to be burned

The BRANCHES, are the Disciples, the Born-Again from above believers, which are fed by the Holy Spirit, from the root, through the vine, and due to being grafted in to the fruit.

But those who DO NOT bear fruit, wither, and are CUT OUT, collected and burned.

It is all about ABIDING in Jesus for Him to ABIDE in us.

See my post prior to this one.

In His Love

Brother Paul

 

[KingJ]

You are not reading John 15 brother, you are trying to look at other verses, which you kindly quote, but to fit your thinking.

The parable of the soils is clearly defining just that.

John 15 is not referring to the soil, it is another message in another parable, clearly showing us, the close link we must have...
With God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

GOD - in the parable, is described as the root, (also called the lump elsewhere) where all the goodness comes from for the vine and its fruit.

JESUS - in the parable, is clearly described in the parable, as the vine, closely connected and abiding.

The HOLY SPIRIT, is the sap in the vine, providing goodness to the vine from the root, then to the productive branches.

The FATHER, is the Vine Dresser, the gardener, the one who tends to the vine, pruning the fruitful to make more fruitful, or cutting and casting out the unfruitful to be burned

The BRANCHES, are the Disciples, the Born-Again from above believers, which are fed by the Holy Spirit, from the root, through the vine, and due to being grafted in to the fruit.

But those who DO NOT bear fruit, wither, and are CUT OUT, collected and burned.

It is all about ABIDING in Jesus for Him to ABIDE in us.

See my post prior to this one.

In His Love

Brother Paul

There was no such thing as a Christian at the time of Jesus. So, there can be no OSAS vs non-OSAS debates with passages like John 15. It is repentant verse unrepentant sinners.

The context of all pre-cross ''falling away'' is akin to examples like the angels falling, people hardening their hearts to repentance of sin.

As explained here in post 13 Question for non-OSAS believers, our names are all written in the lambs book from birth. Cutting branches off a tree thus refer to being removed from the book of life. Unrepentant sinners verse repentant sinners. A Christian is the very definition of a repentant sinner.

As Christians post-cross, if we are evildoers, Jesus would say He never knew us Matt 7:23. Or as Paul says in 1 Cor 5:11 when addressing the church, there are ''brethren so called'' in attendance.

This all goes back to my original argument of non-OSAS believers not fully grasping what exactly 'a Christian' is and how hard it is to become one, as explained here What is a Christian and how do you become one?

 

[Brother-Paul]

I can quote verse upon verse that supports OSAS as well, e.g. “nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Yeshua HaMessiach our Lord,” Rom. 8:38-39. It was told that you can quote Scripture to support anything, including genocide, slavery or abortion. Even Satan quoted Scripture, and he knows it better than any man. Therefore copy-paste walls of text of Scripture is useless, what’s important is your understanding of God’s character and promise, known as “theology”. It is imperative to draw connection and let the Scripture interpret itself. I know OSAS is true because God made a new covenant with his people through the blood of his only son, and that can never be broken. That’s his character. It’s not in just one or two verses, but in the entire Bible from Genesis to Revelation.

I totally agree brother, as I accept every Word from God, Father, Jesus the Messiah, and Holy Spirit to be the Truth.

Romans 8:37-39
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,
39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Amen, so true, I totally agree with Paul

None of those things can separate a truly born-again believer from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord

The only think that can affect our salvation is, ourselves, our faith, our love growing cold, by falling away, falling back into sin and the world of sin. That is exactly what Jesus is saying.

When we ABIDE in Him, He abides in us, we bear fruit for God. If WE lose faith, our heart grows cold, we fall away back to sin.

Who is to blame...
- Not God, not the Father for cutting and casting us out of the vine, no no. He is the vinedresser, the gardener.
- Not Jesus, who Blesses us with the Holy Spirit to bear more fruit, no no. He can only abide in us if we abide in Him.

The only person that can cause us to be CUT OUT, CAST OUT and BURNED is Us!!!