Once saved can we lose our salvation??

[Kit Carson]

and i read and i read and the contradictions don't make sense

Good Morning.

Well pick our one you think is a contradiction and lets discuss it. There are actually no real contradictions, and some seen as so being different only prove the underlying message is true. Now if all things were identical and perfect, like clones I would worry. But as man who attempts to put in words what the Spirit tell them, are just like me, we mess it up sometimes. But pick out one and we can discuss it.

Kit

 

[Beans]

and i read and i read and the contradictions don't make sense

Hi Touch. I thought Kit had a good idea.

How about this verse for an apparent contradiction?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

It sounds like "there is nothing that you can do" on the one hand, but then "you should be doing something" on the other. Right?

Well that is pretty much it. We are saved by FAITH absolutely! 100%
but if we don't live out that faith, if it's nothing more than a theory, then it's dead faith and it will not save us. James 2:15 - 17

We can't say that we "accept" Jesus into our lives and our hearts if we disregard the ethic of Jesus. How can we call him LORD if we don't not follow what he says? If we really accept Jesus into our lives, then he must be more than just a figure head. We don't make the rules. He does.

 

[jari]

James 2 is often used to say that salvation is of works after all, althought it says salvation is free gift in: eph 2:8-9 & Tit 3:5 .

So we must carefully look into what James is saying. He was actually saying that works maybe needed to increase faith:

22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

But its still faith that saves , not the works:

23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

The works are just needed to have the faith in some cases:

24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

And people in past have put their faith in use well:

25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?


It would have not help her much to say "I believe God is with israel" if she hadnt did what she did to gain assurance for her faith.

26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


Also note james isnt saying one work per day or you wont be saved, and your faith will be gone tomorrow. He infact gave examples of single acts of abrahamn and Rahab that changed their lifes.

Because it made their faith perfect. That means stronger and alive.

 

[Donnie]

This thread is getting a lot of views and responses, which means it matters to many of us.

Here is a perspective, and it is a provocative one:

If we are saved, once and for all, it is possible to be a kind and loving person, for all of one's days, and still boil away in agony for all eternity because one has failed to recognize Jesus as the one and only path to salvation, regardless of one's actions and deeds here on Earth.
However, if the "saved, once and for all" theory holds water, the child rapist, who spent his life torturing children, need only bow the knee whilst on death row, come to Jesus one day before shedding this mortal coil, and after a final meal of fried chicken, he will walk through the pearly gates and enter into eternal bliss.

There appears to be something quite immoral about this proposition.

Donnie D.

 

[jari]

This thread is getting a lot of views and responses, which means it matters to many of us.

Here is a perspective, and it is a provocative one:

If we are saved, once and for all, it is possible to be a kind and loving person, for all of one's days, and still boil away in agony for all eternity because one has failed to recognize Jesus as the one and only path to salvation, regardless of one's actions and deeds here on Earth.
However, if the "saved, once and for all" theory holds water, the child rapist, who spent his life torturing children, need only bow the knee whilst on death row, come to Jesus one day before shedding this mortal coil, and after a final meal of fried chicken, he will walk through the pearly gates and enter into eternal bliss.

There appears to be something quite immoral about this proposition.

Donnie D.

Hi donnie. this is not what ASOS is about. But yes everyone will be forgiven when they come to Jesus. No matter what time of their life. Apostole Paul was forgiven too although he murdered early christians and persecuated the church.
Its just so that God is rich in mercy when most humans demand justice. But we have all done the greatest sin there is and not cared for God.

Rom 3:11-12 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

anyway its another topic we are talking about now.
this topic is about can you loose salvation after being saved. People who commit terrible things are not saved yet.

 

[spirit1st]

Mar_9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
Luk_17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

Very few of those kinds ever repent?
Not saying it is impossible!
I have heard lots on interviews of these people not one said they could control them selves! Meaning to me? They had a demon or more in them!
Could the demon or demons be cast out? sure if that person wanted it?

All evil is a spiritual problem! We want to judge all Sins differently!God sees sin as All evil!
Thank GOD ,He does at look at everything like we do? Or we would forgive our Sins , but not others maybe?

I think it is enough if we deal with the Sin in our lives , if we can?
I hate Sin!
when i sin or even think i may have sinned ? I always think How could i have sinned?
My preacher friend ,whom i grew up with. Called me yesterday to tell me He was sorry How He spoke about women too me1 We did not agree!He been hurt a lot by the wives He picked1 now has little faith in them!

 

[Beans]

This thread is getting a lot of views and responses, which means it matters to many of us.

Here is a perspective, and it is a provocative one:

If we are saved, once and for all, it is possible to be a kind and loving person, for all of one's days, and still boil away in agony for all eternity because one has failed to recognize Jesus as the one and only path to salvation, regardless of one's actions and deeds here on Earth.
However, if the "saved, once and for all" theory holds water, the child rapist, who spent his life torturing children, need only bow the knee whilst on death row, come to Jesus one day before shedding this mortal coil, and after a final meal of fried chicken, he will walk through the pearly gates and enter into eternal bliss.

There appears to be something quite immoral about this proposition.

Donnie D.

I think that Donnie makes a good point here.
What really is the essence of faith (and Salvation)? Is the act of faith? or the invisible (hypothetical?) faith that we carry inside?
Will people actually be judged as evil even though they may have been good and others be judged as good even when they are bad, simply because they "accepted Jesus into their hearts"?

Paul says in Romans 2:14 -16

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

Aren't we the gentiles, who are supposed to have the "Law" written in our hearts? What about the people who try to follow their conciences? Won't God take that into account? And if he takes that into account surely he will look also at the sins of those who claim to be his followers, but refuse to follow?

 

[spirit1st]

Always goes back is the Question? What is Salvation ? What is eternal life?
It a New spirit ,that cannot sin!
Eze_11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Joh_3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh_3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
1Pe_1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


Joh_3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh_3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jn_5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Only our Spirit is Born of God1Only our Spirit has eternal life!


1Co_15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.



Heb_12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?



1Pe_1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,


1Pe_1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


1Pe_4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.


Heb_2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

1Jn_4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.


He already Declared us Over comers and More than Conquerors!

 

[jari]

I think that Donnie makes a good point here.
What really is the essence of faith (and Salvation)? Is the act of faith? or the invisible (hypothetical?) faith that we carry inside?
Will people actually be judged as evil even though they may have been good and others be judged as good even when they are bad, simply because they "accepted Jesus into their hearts"?

Paul says in Romans 2:14 -16


Aren't we the gentiles, who are supposed to have the "Law" written in our hearts? What about the people who try to follow their conciences? Won't God take that into account? And if he takes that into account surely he will look also at the sins of those who claim to be his followers, but refuse to follow?

Bible says no one is good except God. So are we to enter heaven by being good? That would be impossible for any of us, as we all fall short of that goal.
Therefore only by Jesus Grace we can get in.
And its a free gift, you cant earn it by following.

 

[Donnie]

Always goes back is the Question? What is Salvation ? What is eternal life?
It a New spirit ,that cannot sin!

These four sentences are not only noteworthy for their syntactical creativity, their seemingly random capitalization, and their peculiar omission of verbs, but the author also claims to have access to knowledge denied to other inquisitive primates.

People keel over and stop breathing every single day, by the thousands.
They stop answering phone calls, turn an ashen grey and start to emit an unpleasant odor. Most of us think it prudent to put them in the ground before a fortnight has passed.

Now we are told that the deceased organism had some inherent flaw for which it required a remedy. That remedy turns out to be submission to a now invisible carpenter who was ritually murdered some 20 centuries ago as a scapegoat for the theological transgressions of bewildered people who labored under abysmal ignorance.

I am not the first person to point out that it is a strange God indeed who makes salvation dependent on believing in him on bad evidence.

If I were God, I wouldn't care whether you thought I existed or not, as long as you spent your life on Earth in a moral and original way.

Methinks the Gods of old are a wee bit needy and insecure.
Could it be that they demand faith without reason for without adherents they would wind up on that scrapheap we call mythology?

Donnie

 

[gdemoss]

If I were God, I wouldn't care whether you thought I existed or not, as long as you spent your life on Earth in a moral and original way.



Donnie

You are very intellectual. Very crafted at the use of words. You have appeared to have seasoned this gift over time. In and of itself it can be appreciated, but when used to try and understand God, the intellect is useless. Unfortunately, people have to die to their intellect in order to live unto God. The intellect was born in the Garden of Eden and it separated God and Man.

The problem you are faced with as an intellectual person is that you are not God. You end up at some point having to be in conflict with Gods opinion and therefore you will be forced to face him and explain just why you think he did things wrong.

Are you sure you want to do that?

I'd rather you didn't.

Peace be unto you and love from Christ Our Lord,

Gary

 

[Kit Carson]

Hi Donnie:

I like free thinkers, I used to be one, I still think for myself. It is just that I am a free thinker who believes in God.

So you figure that a good man, a moral man, who lives a good life and is kind and appreciative and helps others .........but looks at the world and men and knows not to trust, who says I am going to rely on a book to tell me how to live and other men when men all around me show me their failings daily.......I am confused. Well you know you do have a point and this is up to God. I have learned to never put words into Gods mouth and just allow him to be the judge. But he is not as evil and as terrible as other men make him out to be, there is always and intelligent reason for things, and punishment is always deserved, men just like to say it is not, and do not try to understand. Christians also seem to like to condemn first and ask questions later........

So let me tell you how I talk to God, you see I found God to be a friend and a companion and to be real. He paid me a visit once and convinced me to behave. Lol! I love to go fishing, and going today as a matter of fact , but I was about 28 or so and I suffer from Hay Fever where you sneeze and cry and become miserable when the pollen is heavy. So I was trying to fish and in the middle of a cast I would sneeze and the lure would end up in a bush or over a tree limb, and I got mad and cussed God out. I really gave him hell. I told him you idiot , you know how much I love nature and here you go and give me this Hay Fever, to heck with you. But not in so nice a words.
I am a plumber, can be rough at times, so I was giving God hell. I was really upset with this Hay Fever nonsense. Now bear in mind this is a calm day, no wind nothing. Out of the blue I felt the presence of the Spirit and it was overpowering even the hair on my head and body stood up and a gust of wind blew my hat off and up ahead , there it sat floating away and I was scared. I knew exactly what was up. So I went and retrieved my hat and about a minute later just to make it sink in another gust of wind blew my hat off again and sailed it even further away, and the whole time I could feel the presence of the spirit. God had chosen this to pay me a personal visit and say , look you yahoo, I like you and I understand you but you need to behave.
So I learned to just talk to God like a friend, but always with great respect and no challenge, to go and ask with respect but also say, I do not understand, I wish to and from my outlook you are the only one who can explain things.

So I went to God about all the things free thinkers think about. Things like the murderers and the rapists and all the ones who commit terrible things and crimes. I told him this is just not fair, or is it fair, you tell me. Why is the good man seemingly punished and the evil man not. Why is the rapist forgiven and the good man not. If Hitler accepted you would he go to heaven and the answer was YES!

You see we are men. We are of a physical life and in us is the God given wish to survive. It is the biological desire and the plan of nature so we cling to life and we understand all things in this physical realm. God is not physical, he is spirit and his concern is for us in the spiritual. We are but like butterflies on this earth , we are to learn, and evil is a way of teaching us, we see it, and we have a choice to become a part of it or to reject it. Our entire life is like this butterfly waiting to be born into a spiritual life. So the things of this world do seem terrible , and justice seems unfair to us as men as we view all things in the physical sense. But God is spiritual and is concerned with our spiritual being. So to even begin to understand him and his forgiveness of things, one has to step into his world a bit. To acknowledge the fact we cling to his physical life and judge things by our way. That we do not understand at all how someone like Paul or David can be forgiven and obtain not only salvation but be friends with God.
So Gods answer to me is very simple, I created you with free will, I wish you to be a free thinker, but I give you all this evidence of my existence and I let you chose. You do not understand all, you are not intended to understand, all you need to know is if you come to me in faith and belief , then all is well. This is my right and my way, it is what is. You cannot change it, I am God.

Well you know it is not so bad. I kinda like having a protector and a friend that is always there, always reliable and always truthful. It is the one light in the world of deception and violence and sin. It is the reward of peace and the forthcoming world of the spiritual that once you do accept and understand that is the goal.

And it is not hard. God does not demand much at all. Just accept me and believe in me, accept that you do not understand all and I do not intend you to, but one day when it is time ,you will be shown all.

Hope this helps, it took me awhile to understand too, I had to let my view of the physical world go. I had to listen to what God was telling me, that I am spiritual and I wish you to be also. My views and power is so much more than yours, and it is my right as I created you. Once I accepted this I did understand. That evil has to be to create good. That God uses it all to mold us, to let us chose to be what we will be.

Kinda deep huh??? But God is not evil. Men make him so, as they do not understand. They wish to put their own ways ahead of God. To lash out and say this is unfair. But when you understand it is but men clinging to our own views, and not wishing to accept the fact that salvation and the spiritual life is so very simple and all it takes is to believe.

I asked God about the hard head. The Atheist, the one who looks around and just does not quite get it, and he told me, Kit, I am not evil and I am not unfair, I understand that confusion is the way of the world. I will judge each man on his own merit. You do not worry about that, you just do what I put in your heart. You have accepted me, and we are cool, you leave the rest of it up to me.

So I learned to trust. God is more to me than the creator, he is a friend , one with the answers. But he deals with us all in a one on one way and what is for me may not be for you, but I hope you understand some of this.

Something else, take Paul, the one who did terrible things. God used him and Paul was so convicted of his sins, that he became such a voice for Christ that he could not be shut up. The evil was turned to good and it was such a strong good that it has set the stage for us all. Paul so much more so than us, understood the reason, he was evil and became good. The bad man became a very good man, one who could not be turned away. Not sure how to explain this, but it is a very good example of how a very bad man is used by God to become great. It is only done so by Paul's superior understanding of evil and his conviction of bad. So he became good with a little help, and not only good but a voice to set for the rest of the ages. One can only understand this if God explains it to you.

Kit

 

[gdemoss]

I like free thinkers, I used to be one, I still think for myself. It is just that I am a free thinker who believes in God.

Free thinkers are at enmity with God whether they believe in him or not.

Either God is right or he isn't, we need not think for ourselves.

Wrapped up in the Love of God and given unto you,

Gary

 

[Donnie Ducati]

If your 'thinking' doesn't line up with The Word of God....then you need to re-'think'.

The question to ask is whether a Born-Again Christian can cease being a Born-Again Christian. The answer to this question is, yes, a Believer can stop believing, a Christian can stop being a Christian, and the Born-Again can turn his back on Salvation and become lost-again. Even superficial reading of the Bible will reveal any number of personalities who were at one time within the Grace of God, but who subsequently fell from Grace. After their fall from Grace, these individuals became lost (Ezek. 28:12-19; Mat. 25:41; Gen. 1:26-31; Lk. 3:38; Lev. 10:1-2).

The Bible clearly states that we are saved by Grace through Faith (Eph. 2:8). We are further told that the just shall live by Faith (Heb. 10:38). Salvation is given to the Believer, not by works or by acts of righteousness, but as a gift through the act of Faith. It is, of course, maintained in exactly the same way.

 

[gdemoss]

The Bible clearly states that we are saved by Grace through Faith (Eph. 2:8). We are further told that the just shall live by Faith (Heb. 10:38). Salvation is given to the Believer, not by works or by acts of righteousness, but as a gift through the act of Faith. It is, of course, maintained in exactly the same way.

Great response Donnie. But as you have it here truly the 'act of faith' is 'acts of righteousness' if we believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, the righteousness of God manifest in the flesh and we follow him as such in 'faith' then we do it in 'works of righteousness'. Therefore, God is Just and the Justifier of him who believes in Jesus. The atonement allows for us to be able to still make it though we be not perfect in our walk but is limited to us not continuing in sin willfully.

Again, great response.

Gary

 

[jari]

If your 'thinking' doesn't line up with The Word of God....then you need to re-'think'.

The question to ask is whether a Born-Again Christian can cease being a Born-Again Christian. The answer to this question is, yes, a Believer can stop believing, a Christian can stop being a Christian, and the Born-Again can turn his back on Salvation and become lost-again. Even superficial reading of the Bible will reveal any number of personalities who were at one time within the Grace of God, but who subsequently fell from Grace. After their fall from Grace, these individuals became lost (Ezek. 28:12-19; Mat. 25:41; Gen. 1:26-31; Lk. 3:38; Lev. 10:1-2).

The Bible clearly states that we are saved by Grace through Faith (Eph. 2:8). We are further told that the just shall live by Faith (Heb. 10:38). Salvation is given to the Believer, not by works or by acts of righteousness, but as a gift through the act of Faith. It is, of course, maintained in exactly the same way.

it appears your idea of born again is in error. It doesnt mean a state when you begun to believe in Jesus. It means your born of God's Holy spirit. And this is what makes you child of God. its not about your wisdom and your effort to be good christian. Its started by saving faith in Jesus. And once you become adpoted to God's family, your always His.
And Bible says we have been given Holy spirit until to the end... as mark that we are His own.
And thus never cease to be so.

How can you stop believing? only by not having any assurance in the begin with. But when you meet your God you'll never forget it.

If we think that our feelings define how close to we are to God and how much faith we have then thats like swimming in water thinking your a fish as long as you stay there. And when you come out your not fish anymore?

The point is true faith in Jesus sacrafice can make us born again which I believe is absolutely irrevisable thing.

God bless you, all.

 

[RJ]

If your 'thinking' doesn't line up with The Word of God....then you need to re-'think'.

The question to ask is whether a Born-Again Christian can cease being a Born-Again Christian. The answer to this question is, yes, a Believer can stop believing, a Christian can stop being a Christian, and the Born-Again can turn his back on Salvation and become lost-again. Even superficial reading of the Bible will reveal any number of personalities who were at one time within the Grace of God, but who subsequently fell from Grace. After their fall from Grace, these individuals became lost (Ezek. 28:12-19; Mat. 25:41; Gen. 1:26-31; Lk. 3:38; Lev. 10:1-2).

The Bible clearly states that we are saved by Grace through Faith (Eph. 2:8). We are further told that the just shall live by Faith (Heb. 10:38). Salvation is given to the Believer, not by works or by acts of righteousness, but as a gift through the act of Faith. It is, of course, maintained in exactly the same way.

There is nothing in the physical world or the Spirit world that indicates that once you are "Born" that you can become un-born!

 

[Kit Carson]

Free thinkers are at enmity with God whether they believe in him or not.

Either God is right or he isn't, we need not think for ourselves.

Wrapped up in the Love of God and given unto you,

Gary

Oh so wrong you are. We are required to be free thinkers, we have to think daily, by the hour, and we are to use our free will and our intelligence to follow God.

If I became numb to the way of God and followed man and the teachings of most I would be in sad shape.

The internet is interesting as it is hard to know exactly what is on another persons mind. But if we do not become those who think and judge all things we become ones who run from God.

Many assume too many things also, in things not written and in things to be judged by God, I leave that to him.

If you are an Atheist and tell me I am a fool for believing in God, I will just grin. I will still be your friend, I will still open the door for you . I will still stop on the way home and help you if you ask. I will not allow you to sway me your way, but I will use my mind to think.

So so called man of God or church tells me this is ok, well I will think and I will run to God for an answer. Then I will tell that man you are full of it.

We must be superior free thinkers, to combat the sneak attack we all face each day.

As for those who are good men, but do not believe, who bear no one ill will, who do have good morals, and who do help others or just live a life of peace due to their own known and taught values and morals, of which there are many. I will leave that one up to God. Will he condemn them alongside the murderer who rejects him, or save them alongside the murderer who accepts him? Or will he say, OK you yahoo here I am in person, are you not now a believer?? I will leave that all up to God.

Meanwhile I will use my very strong will to avoid the sneak attacks of the world.

Kit

 

[Donnie Ducati]

Even superficial reading of the Bible will reveal any number of personalities who were at one time within the Grace of God, but who subsequently fell from Grace. After their fall from Grace, these individuals became lost (Ezek. 28:12-19; Mat. 25:41; Gen. 1:26-31; Lk. 3:38; Lev. 10:1-2).



How do you explain these examples ?

 

[jari]

Even superficial reading of the Bible will reveal any number of personalities who were at one time within the Grace of God, but who subsequently fell from Grace. After their fall from Grace, these individuals became lost (Ezek. 28:12-19; Mat. 25:41; Gen. 1:26-31; Lk. 3:38; Lev. 10:1-2).



How do you explain these examples ?

Donnie you cant take something from old testament and say God judges us the same way like He did them. Also it says in Peters letter that those dead who were disobedient back then heard gospel from Jesus after He went to preach to them.

We shouldnt read bible superficially and say hey this is what can happen to all of us. It must be studied carefully to understand what kinda of standard God has put for each man.

You need to learn about the two coveants God made with man, the old and the new.
Old is covered in old testament , new in new testament.

God bless you