Once saved can we lose our salvation??

[jari]

If a person dies in their sins, than yes, they could lose their salvation. Each time we sin, we distance ourselves from God and are no longer in his loving graceful presence. Once saved always saved, is strictly a man-made doctrine to excuse sinful behaviour. Btw, excellent post eddieb, spot on mate.

This each time you sin makes you futher from God is also very man made to me. Bible mentions no such thing. But i may agree with you that sin may do that. But still its just feelings we are talking about and feelings are not infact by which we are judged.

also if person dies in their sins? Bible teaches no ones perfect. So you say something i hear offen but its not defined in anyway what is that sin.
Sounds like another man made doctrine to me and i mean no offence but i must make this objection as that is something i do not know my self to be stated in the bible.

Can you back that up what you said with the bible?
Honestly i dont think you can because there isnt anythig near like that spoken about in the bible that you mention.

i think the problem with statements like this is mainly that they cannot be proven with bible even there maybe some truth to these man made phrases. But they very difficult to prove.. to me atleast. can you?

 

[will]

Brother, please clarify for me on a few questions below:

If a person dies in their sins, than yes, they could lose their salvation.

Does that mean we as humans are able to undo what The Lord has done to save us just by the act of sinning?

Each time we sin, we distance ourselves from God and are no longer in his loving graceful presence.

So the distance between us and God is solely within our control? What about sins that we do not realize? do those distance us also?

Once saved always saved, is strictly a man-made doctrine to excuse sinful behaviour.

So we live a sinless life because we are under this constant threat that we can lose our salvation?
Not because we are supposed to grow into this relationship with Lord Jesus filled with awe and love so that we may become more conformed to His image?

 

[levi]

If OSAS were right, then why is there a need to fear and tremble?

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Salvation is for the few chosen ones who obey and fear the Lord.

Fear God does not mean to be afraid or scared of him; he is a true father of love and is not mean or abusive.

You can not take fear and trembling out of context. Here are only a few other translations for those often misunderstood terms:

Reverent / Sensitive
Awe / Responsibility
fear / respect
Reverance / Awe

I do understand the meaning of fear in context but how do you explain the latter word of the verse which explains very clearly what it means; the word 'trembling'?

 

[nzdaughter]

i am just slightly worried as sometimes my repentence can be a loooong time coming like if i'm caught up in temptation :shock: i guess i'll just have to keep my eyes turning back towards God when that happens.
:huh:

 

[Beans]

Will said:

Brother, please clarify for me on a few questions below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by philosopher
If a person dies in their sins, than yes, they could lose their salvation.

Does that mean we as humans are able to undo what The Lord has done to save us just by the act of sinning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by philosopher
Each time we sin, we distance ourselves from God and are no longer in his loving graceful presence.

So the distance between us and God is solely within our control? What about sins that we do not realize? do those distance us also?

Quote:
Originally Posted by philosopher
Once saved always saved, is strictly a man-made doctrine to excuse sinful behaviour.

So we live a sinless life because we are under this constant threat that we can lose our salvation?
Not because we are supposed to grow into this relationship with Lord Jesus filled with awe and love so that we may become more conformed to His image?

In response to Will...

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

It's not that WE have any power to undo something that God has done. It's just that if we don't ABIDE in him we bear the consequences.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

Merriam-Webster define abide as:
a·bide/əˈbīd/

Verb:

• Accept or act in accordance with (a rule, decision, or recommendation): "I would abide by their decision".
• Be unable to tolerate (someone or something): "I cannot abide a lack of discipline".

Synonyms:stay - stand - endure - reside - dwell - remain - bear

 

[RJ]

I do understand the meaning of fear in context but how do you explain the latter word of the verse which explains very clearly what it means; the word 'trembling'?

Yes, I just gave that to you:

Your translation:
Fear / Trembling!

Other translations:
Reverent / Sensitive
Awe / Responsibility
fear / respect
Reverance / Awe

The other translated words for trembling, as listed above, are: Sensitive,Responsibilty,Respect, Awe.

 

[philosopher]

Please provide scripture where we would no longer be in God's graceful presence.

I believe in OSAS and I never use it for and excuse for sinful behavior! Why is it that we are always accused of that?

I say this with all due love and respect, I grow tired of this kind of labeling.

I have never, not once in any thread here at TJ have I seen a person who beleives in Eternal Security, that states that they now have an excuse to sin. That is an insult! What kind of Christian would We be if we felt that way about sin, we would not be one...that's what!

So please, all of you who feel this way, either show threads that support this type of behavior or stop the gossep!!

Btw, unless you can point it out, I see no scripture that says that, once God is in you as promised by the New Covenant, that he will leave for any reason.

I see Jesus telling Nicodemus, that "You must be Born Again"! I see no scripture that states that there is any such thing as being "un-born"!

Of course not everyone who believes in OSAS would adopt such a mindset, but I've encountered that kind of sentiment before. Sorry that it offended you, mate. But our salvation depends on if we're going to stay on the narrow path, and endure until the end like Jesus says.

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. - Matthew 24:13

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. - Romans 6:23

In light of the current scripture, we can know that our salvation depends on if we will crucify our flesh daily and follow Jesus. And the only way we can stay steadfast in the faith, is with the Holy Spirit directing every aspect of our lives.

 

[jari]

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. - Matthew 24:13

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. - Romans 6:23

It's a gift. So what are we really enduring for if its a gift, it makes no sense?

 

[jari]

Hi philosopher, you say lot of things that i cant recall from scripture.
let me ask you...

salvation depends on if we will crucify our flesh daily and follow Jesus. And the only way we can stay steadfast in the faith, is with the Holy Spirit directing every aspect of our lives.

Where does it say that?

I read that if your God's own you have already done that:


Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

So I'm not sure how to take this. We should already have that?

 

[jari]

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
It's not that WE have any power to undo something that God has done. It's just that if we don't ABIDE in him we bear the consequences.

I don't think this verse means you could lose salvation. How can you tell what's the consequence of this?

I'm looking forward to hear your thoughts...
As well as anybody's thoughts on this question.

 

[will]

Will said:
In response to Will...

It's not that WE have any power to undo something that God has done. It's just that if we don't ABIDE in him we bear the consequences.



Merriam-Webster define abide as:
a·bide/əˈbīd/

Verb:

• Accept or act in accordance with (a rule, decision, or recommendation): "I would abide by their decision".
• Be unable to tolerate (someone or something): "I cannot abide a lack of discipline".

Synonyms:stay - stand - endure - reside - dwell - remain - bear

Beans,
You quoted Hebrew 10:26 correct?
Let's read the context of which it is written:

10:26 For if we deliberately keep on sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins is left for us, 10:27 but only a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a fury of fire that will consume God’s enemies.
​

Receiving the knowledge of truth is not the same as accepting the Grace of God through the sacrifice of Lord Jesus on the cross, which leads to salvation.

Think about it. Are we saved only by knowing the truth? or do we also have to believe, confess, and live it by faith?

Therefore I believe that this passage addresses those who kept on sinning after knowing the truth; therefore are considered God's enemies. Who are these? the next passages described:

10:28 Someone who rejected the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.10:29 How much greater punishment do you think that person deserves who has contempt for the Son of God, and profane the blood of the covenant that made him holy, and insults the Spirit of grace?
​

To my reading, these are not a description of believers, but it describes those who reject God's plan of salvation knowingly and willingly. And we know that this description is not rhetoric, because we know that there are people out there who are actively doing the above actions.

As for the concept of ABIDE, I have no disagreement with you. We must abide in Him. But realize that the meaning and application of that concept differs for those who are infants vs those who are mature in their walk with The Lord.

 

[Beans]

Hi Will.
Yeah, I guess you got me there! The context of Hebrews 10:26 does sound like it's referring to people who have already rejected God's grace. Thanks for pointing that out.

jari Hi philosopher, you say lot of things that i cant recall from scripture.
let me ask you...

Quote:
Originally Posted by philosopher View Post
salvation depends on if we will crucify our flesh daily and follow Jesus. And the only way we can stay steadfast in the faith, is with the Holy Spirit directing every aspect of our lives.
Where does it say that?

I read that if your God's own you have already done that:


Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

So I'm not sure how to take this. We should already have that?

Hi Jari. I think this may answer your question...

Mathew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Next issue...

jari But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. - Matthew 24:13

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. - Romans 6:23

It's a gift. So what are we really enduring for if its a gift, it makes no sense?

So Jari, if someone sells you a billion dollar house for $1, did you actually buy that house or is it a gift?
You see there is nothing we can do to earn salvation. We could never be good enough to deserve it, but does that mean that God doesn't want us to do ANYTHING? Some would say yes, but not me.

Mathew 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls; 46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

 

[jari]

Hi Will.
Yeah, I guess you got me there! The context of Hebrews 10:26 does sound like it's referring to people who have already rejected God's grace. Thanks for pointing that out.



Hi Jari. I think this may answer your question...

Mathew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Next issue...


So Jari, if someone sells you a billion dollar house for $1, did you actually buy that house or is it a gift?
You see there is nothing we can do to earn salvation. We could never be good enough to deserve it, but does that mean that God doesn't want us to do ANYTHING? Some would say yes, but not me.

Thanks beans but Mat 10:38 doesnt answer my question.

If its free then there must not also be any catches to it, right?


God bless you

 

[Stickz]

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

I Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

II Timothy 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

II Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Matthew 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Matthew 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. 15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 16:21 And teach customs, which are not lawful for us to receive, neither to observe, being Romans.


Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: The only people that had died in this manner were those that were under the law, those that had received the law. The people of Israel never held trials to put people, outside of Israel, to death for breaking their law, nor were they ever told to take it into the surrounding countries to give to others. And if this verse is read in this light, the verse that follows it ( 29 ) must be read in this light too.

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? Who is the second "he" referring to? Who was sanctified by the blood of the covenant?

 

[jari]

Hi Stickz

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

I Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

II Timothy 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

II Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Matthew 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Matthew 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. 15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 16:21 And teach customs, which are not lawful for us to receive, neither to observe, being Romans.


Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: The only people that had died in this manner were those that were under the law, those that had received the law. The people of Israel never held trials to put people, outside of Israel, to death for breaking their law, nor were they ever told to take it into the surrounding countries to give to others. And if this verse is read in this light, the verse that follows it ( 29 ) must be read in this light too.

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? Who is the second "he" referring to? Who was sanctified by the blood of the covenant?

I still believe we must believe in Jesus as savior, that is the truth. If we reject the idea that Jesus paid our sins we're trodding under the foot the Son of God and counting His blood an unholy thing. And we must not despite the Spirit of grace. Grace is the forgiveness and love God has for us......

I belive this is the truth that can make us free.

And wilful sin means some kind of rebellious deliberate sinning.
Which God will disciple people of.

 

[spirit1st]

1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


1Jn_5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Rom_6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Eph_4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Rom_6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal_2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


Rom_8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


Gal_5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


Php_3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:


1Jn_4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 

[Kit Carson]

So would you all like to quit your worry over this. ?? Go read John 10
verses 27 to 30.

Once we really do accept Christ and mean it , bow our heads and say I do wish to follow you. We are his. No one and no thing can take us. it is not allowed for us to be stolen.

A long time ago an old country preacher told me this. He said Kit you are in a circle and God is in the circle and yes you can get all the way out to the end of that circle and almost fall off. But God will not let you fall off the edge.

So we may commit some crime, or this or that, or act the fool, but you see God knows we will face many tests. He may even allow a couple to come our way. But through it all we are the property of Christ and no one can take us.

So just accept that and smile. Tell Christ ..Thank You, and just say Hi to him everyday. Because whatever you do and when you call out in despair his name, he will be there.

Nice to have something to rely on, to know at least one thing is true and that we do have a friend where his love is not conditional on our love. He is so much more than we are. Once you realize this, then your fears go away. Unlike us who reach our full measure quickly, Christ has lots of patience.

It took me a long time to just become like a child. Once I figured out being a child was not so bad, it all became very clear. I learned to just accept. To not try to become the smartest person in the room. And to not worry anymore.

Respectfully

Kit

 

[RJ]

So would you all like to quit your worry over this. ?? Go read John 10
verses 27 to 30.

Once we really do accept Christ and mean it , bow our heads and say I do wish to follow you. We are his. No one and no thing can take us. it is not allowed for us to be stolen.

A long time ago an old country preacher told me this. He said Kit you are in a circle and God is in the circle and yes you can get all the way out to the end of that circle and almost fall off. But God will not let you fall off the edge.

So we may commit some crime, or this or that, or act the fool, but you see God knows we will face many tests. He may even allow a couple to come our way. But through it all we are the property of Christ and no one can take us.

So just accept that and smile. Tell Christ ..Thank You, and just say Hi to him everyday. Because whatever you do and when you call out in despair his name, he will be there.

Nice to have something to rely on, to know at least one thing is true and that we do have a friend where his love is not conditional on our love. He is so much more than we are. Once you realize this, then your fears go away. Unlike us who reach our full measure quickly, Christ has lots of patience.

It took me a long time to just become like a child. Once I figured out being a child was not so bad, it all became very clear. I learned to just accept. To not try to become the smartest person in the room. And to not worry anymore.

Respectfully

Kit

I believe it is living in the truth that Jesus said would set you free!

It looks like we read the same Bible!

 

[brakelite]

Galatians 5:1 ¶ Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

The Galatians were saved. They had accepted the gospel in all its fullness. Paul himself testifies to this. The problem is that they accepted Judaisers into their midst who convinced them that theye weren't saved after all, but needed to be circumcised. The Galatians were duly circumcised, and plantyed their faith upon this work of the law. Paul states clearly and categorically that they had fallen from grace. That Christ profited them no longer, and had become of no effect unto them.

The Galatians were saved, now they weren't. Seems to me this particular episode and Paul's testimony and straight condemnation of their actions settles this debate.

 

[TouchTestimony]

and i read and i read and the contradictions don't make sense