Could that mean those who are not yet saved need to endure?
Once saved can we lose our salvation??
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Could that mean those who are not yet saved need to endure?
Never say never Mark . lol
Brighthouse
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LOL Agua!!! You got me Agua!!! And to jari,I never think I am better,that is why I believe we should always be acting on what we truly do believe.Grace yes,and there is a purpose for grace,not to rest,but to have and continue to produce GOOD WORKS! Are you content with what you have in Jesus? I myself am always looking to have more of him myself,What Jesus did for me on the cross is enough!!
But my thanks to him for that will NEVER END!! And so to be thankful,is to act thankful,this I work very hard ,and will continue to work very hard to always do! Did you ever see a scripture that says Jesus slept??? wept yes,but slept?? HUMM I never did! Blessing.
But my thanks to him for that will NEVER END!! And so to be thankful,is to act thankful,this I work very hard ,and will continue to work very hard to always do! Did you ever see a scripture that says Jesus slept??? wept yes,but slept?? HUMM I never did! Blessing.
Brighthouse
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OH OH!! LOl yes Jesus did sleep!! on the boat!! Matt 8:23-27, but not for long. lol
Brother i didnt mean to say that you would think you'r better than others. What I just wanted to do was make a point that those who believe in OSAS can just as well serve God and do it with graditude and earnestly and zealously.
Yes Jesus did sleep in boat And who woke him up the disciples when storm came... And Lord dealt with the storm.
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RJ
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You have been wrong about me from the get go. I have no idea where you became so apposed to OSAS.
One thing I do know is that you continue to mistaken what I have talked about:
1. never believing we can ever get to close to the Lord? I never said it, I never mentioned and I didn't even insinuate it! In act, my stance has always been that we can get closer to the lord by resting in the total peace and the Finality Of The Cross.
2. do what you want!! Here is the big buga-boo for those who hate OSAS. I do not mean this personally but, it is the same old lie that we are saying that we can do what ever we want.....never said it, never insinuated and completly dont believe in that. You go back and show me , in all my threads, where I have even remotely said that. You can't because I never did....apparently you wish to hear only what you want to hear!
3. Nothing matters anymore ,you have made it. Jesus never taught that in his Word, that one can sit back, we are to strive always Everything matters, again never said anything otherwise! Do plan on sitting back in peace and the security of my salvation but, don't plan on willfully sining either. But when I do sin, and sin I will, I rely on the truth that Jesus died one time and I am forgiven for it.
What I don't think you understand yet about me is that, I feel very strongly it is not you that sees your sin, it is the Holy Spirit that reveals it to us. A non-believer does not look at sin the same way we do...if at all!
So from the mere fact that He is in us, we do care; we recieve his chastisement and the pointing out our sin as a good thing. Then, added to that, we walk in the peace that therefore there is no condemnation for those with Christ in them!
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Stickz
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Peace be unto you
Let me start by quoting myself:
I was curious what kind of responses I would get from my post, seeing as how it consisted of almost nothing but scripture. I somehow knew, though, that someone would say something about me having taken the scripture out of context because there was really no other means to attack it, right? By the way, what I posted from Romans eleven was hardly out of context, it was a third of the chapter. Besides, I have no problem with someone going back and reading the entire chapter—read the entire Bible, I see myself in context with the whole book in it's entirety.
You OSASers hardly ever quote more than one verse from a chapter, and yet you accuse people of taking verses out of context. Even unbelievers see the wrong in the way that John 3:16 is used. Most of the supposed contradictions in the Bible stem from your interpretations of it. I won't even bring up the "Roman's Road to Salvation."
My intent with this post was not to try to change the minds of the people that believe in OSAS, for I have already seen—many times over—how pointless and unfruitful that argument is. And Jesus doesn't want us wasting the precious time that we have left trying to help those that do not need it—do not want it. You are obviously content with what you have, and, honestly, I don't want to take it from you, it requires way too much effort. You keep it, and good luck standing before God with it.
I avoided this thread, at first, because, yes, I have done some research into all of this, and I have argued it a few thousand times. But, I decided that I should go ahead and post in it because there are people out there that aren't sure what to believe, yet, and I think that it's the Lord's will that they get to, at least, choose between the two arguments, for themselves. You OSASers can post your best argument for your belief, my post was for the other team. Hopefully everyone will see how serious this issue is and make the best decision for themselves—for it is an eternal decision. We will all stand before the judgement seat of Christ, and answer for ourselves. Alone.
Brighthouse, I agree with your post. Arguing this is wasted effort on our part; arguing with RJ is even more so. Every moment that we spend trying to argue against this doctrine we could have been speaking to someone who hasn't heard the gospel, yet. Time is short.
In all of my efforts to change people's minds on OSAS, I have only ever had two people even seem like they might have heard me, and I'm not sure what has become of them. One of us is right, and one of us is wrong, and neither of us are willing to concede to the other. OSAS is too comforting of a doctrine for them to let go of. Do you remember how much time Jesus spent trying to convince the Pharisees that they were wrong in what they believed?
Let me start by quoting myself:
Jari, I have not posted in this thread with the intention of arguing my belief. I thought that I made that pretty clear...? I forgot that some of us just don't see things as distinctly as others ... my bad, I'm sorry.
I was curious what kind of responses I would get from my post, seeing as how it consisted of almost nothing but scripture. I somehow knew, though, that someone would say something about me having taken the scripture out of context because there was really no other means to attack it, right? By the way, what I posted from Romans eleven was hardly out of context, it was a third of the chapter. Besides, I have no problem with someone going back and reading the entire chapter—read the entire Bible, I see myself in context with the whole book in it's entirety.
You OSASers hardly ever quote more than one verse from a chapter, and yet you accuse people of taking verses out of context. Even unbelievers see the wrong in the way that John 3:16 is used. Most of the supposed contradictions in the Bible stem from your interpretations of it. I won't even bring up the "Roman's Road to Salvation."
My intent with this post was not to try to change the minds of the people that believe in OSAS, for I have already seen—many times over—how pointless and unfruitful that argument is. And Jesus doesn't want us wasting the precious time that we have left trying to help those that do not need it—do not want it. You are obviously content with what you have, and, honestly, I don't want to take it from you, it requires way too much effort. You keep it, and good luck standing before God with it.
I avoided this thread, at first, because, yes, I have done some research into all of this, and I have argued it a few thousand times. But, I decided that I should go ahead and post in it because there are people out there that aren't sure what to believe, yet, and I think that it's the Lord's will that they get to, at least, choose between the two arguments, for themselves. You OSASers can post your best argument for your belief, my post was for the other team. Hopefully everyone will see how serious this issue is and make the best decision for themselves—for it is an eternal decision. We will all stand before the judgement seat of Christ, and answer for ourselves. Alone.
Brighthouse, I agree with your post. Arguing this is wasted effort on our part; arguing with RJ is even more so. Every moment that we spend trying to argue against this doctrine we could have been speaking to someone who hasn't heard the gospel, yet. Time is short.
In all of my efforts to change people's minds on OSAS, I have only ever had two people even seem like they might have heard me, and I'm not sure what has become of them. One of us is right, and one of us is wrong, and neither of us are willing to concede to the other. OSAS is too comforting of a doctrine for them to let go of. Do you remember how much time Jesus spent trying to convince the Pharisees that they were wrong in what they believed?
Thank you, sir. And you know, as well as I do, that there is plenty more scripture where that came from to back what we believe. I was trying to keep my post short. Bless you, brother. You too, Beans.
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Brighthouse
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NOW RJ!!! THIS IS PERSONAL TO YOU!!!! YOU have judged me FALSELY!! ( 1 tim 1:5!!) I never said you meant or said anything like this!! YOU have taken my words unto you personal!! YOU!! are wrong in doing this!! Are you yourself the very doctrine of OSAS??? If you feel this BAD over it,you must be! NEVER!!! Mistake my kindness for weakness!! The words I spoke were NOT!!!!of YOU or TO YOU!! I am speaking of the dam Doctrine itself, which can cause younger brother and sisters to stumble!! You do not want to wage war against me!!I have no FEAR!! But sure can bring much from the Lord in me to those who so wrongfully assume!!! I am speaking unto the doctrine itself,not of those who care to hid behind it!! So Knock it off! And Jari!! I agree with you on that fact as well yes!! Those who believe in OSAS can have good works.amen
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Some are born -Again right away !others it takes time? Not sure How that works? I know He calls us first !Then tries us ! then if we are willing to accept His Gospel as truth and him as LORD then we are Born -Again! Which is a New spirit that cannot sin!
But it All by Faith!
But it All by Faith!
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Brighthouse
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Brother R.J. and myself have talked,we are at peace with each other.I never want the sun to ever go down on my anger!! amen!
Yes not taking some verses in context you used them to say your opinion. And i didnt say Romans 11 was badly out of context as I noted the verses itselfs speak of standing and nothing else in my opinion.
You say that i attacked your posted verses but I think it shows you are not clear your self of what you have posted regarding couple of verses. Because if you did read verse before the one you posted Colossians 1:23 you'd see it's talking about growing and the condition was regarding growing.
I see you don't belive in anykind instant salvation. Nor in romans road..
Why accuse of others not wanting the truth? I could say exactly same thing about you.
I guess you think your only one who knows the Bible but if you cant consider other's views who have also read and studied the Bible then I dont know, maybe there's no point talking if your not seriously concerned of the verses you use to support your view. I mean many of the verses you posted really arent about salvation and i know this by knowing the context.
It kinda gives me the feeling you used bible search to pick these verses but then it can easily happen that you forget the check the context?
So you don't believe sacrafice of Jesus is anyhelp at all for you? If you insist you will have to come out perfect without bad deeds but good deeds for the judgement day?
pharisees were hypocrites who didnt believe in the goodness of Jesus. They refused accept Him as their king and their Savior and accused of Him casting out demons with powers of demons. And were constantly looking for reasons against Him though He was innocent. They really didnt see Jesus as good and of course they them self where evil.
So what does that have to with those who honestly listen? Even they would disagree.
So in anycase point ive picked from Bible always is salvation ofcourse and this is life changing experience. If you have some different views I dont wish to argue either. I think pretty much everything is said already.
God bless.
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Stickz
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Here is a definition of the word 'endure':
vi. To continue in the same state; to last; to abide; to submit. —vt To sustain; to bear; to undergo; to tolerate.
So, yes, Jari, the word 'endure' could be used the way that you are suggesting, if—and only if— you take the last half of the verse out of context. When read with it's context it should be clear that he was referring to his believing disciples that would be persecuted. The word 'endureth' in this verse implies continuing in the same state, not changing. Not talking about the unbeliever.
Romans 11:1-36 Verse 20 speaks of someone doing a little more than standing, Jari. It speaks of someone standing by faith: Please do not tell me that you think it could be referring to an unbeliever?
Colossians 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Colossians 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Colossians 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Even in the context the way that I used verse 23 still looks the same to me, Jari. See how verse 22 says that He did what he did to present us holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight? Well, verse 23 proceeds to say, "If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled .... " See the conditional? That was my reason for using the verse. It is going to look different to you and people that believe OSAS because you cannot see things the way that we see them, nor do we see things the way that you see them.
According to scripture, it could be that one of us is blind: We think it's the OSASers, and you think it's us. But, as I have already stated, my posts are not meant for you. They're meant for those that hear them and understand them.
Jari, you claimed that my post was full of verses pulled entirely out of context. But, Beans and David777 don't seem to share your opinion, why is that? Like me, are they too ignorant about the scriptures? Easily deceived? My post was not for you, or people like you, but for those that will hear it.
No, Jari, I do not believe in "instant" salvation. And the "Romans Road to Salvation" is the second worst doctrine taught with verses taken out of context.
Next time I need something checked to determine whether I have taken it out of context, I'll check with you, Jari, okay? I didn't realize that you could clear up all the Bible controversy that the world has had since the beginning of time. Sorry, I should have asked.
I think that you misunderstood my point, but I'll go with it anyway. I believe very much that Jesus' sacrifice did wonderful things for me. I just don't believe that it did EVERYTHING for me. Many OSASers seem to believe that Jesus' sacrifice made them righteous even when they sin, but the rest of us ( wish we had a name, does anyone know of one? ) believe that He gave us a second chance to do things right, with His help.
Jari, how do you interpret Jesus telling believers to pick up their cross and follow Him? What does that verse mean to you?
He either done it all on the cross, or He didn't.
Attractive debate.
This is wonderful to see, a debate about interpretation.
So frustrating and enlightening at the same time.
Oh, human nature in its raw form. "I am not always right
but never wrong."
Debate can be stimulating and satisfying when kept within
the confines of Love from a pure heart.
Stckz you are not the first or the last to suffer at the hands
of those that hold to theological positions. In fact theology
colleges train their students to interpret exactly as these folk do.
It is an intellectual approach with assumptions thrown in.
You stickz are being led by the Holy Spirit so you will not distort
the scriptures to the extent that they do. Do not absorb their replies in a personal way, let Jesus be glorified in everything you do.
This is wonderful to see, a debate about interpretation.
So frustrating and enlightening at the same time.
Oh, human nature in its raw form. "I am not always right
but never wrong."
Debate can be stimulating and satisfying when kept within
the confines of Love from a pure heart.
Stckz you are not the first or the last to suffer at the hands
of those that hold to theological positions. In fact theology
colleges train their students to interpret exactly as these folk do.
It is an intellectual approach with assumptions thrown in.
You stickz are being led by the Holy Spirit so you will not distort
the scriptures to the extent that they do. Do not absorb their replies in a personal way, let Jesus be glorified in everything you do.
Brighthouse
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There is one blessing to this thread!! We are all getting more into the Word!! That I know is a very good thing! Blessing and PEACE!!! Be with us all!! amen
Back to Jari.
The following verse and two questions is what I posted Jari.
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"Originally Posted by David777
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Is this out of context? How do you interpret this one Jari?"
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Now my friend Jari what did you mean when you stated the
following answer to my questions?
"Could that mean those who are not yet saved need to endure?"
The following verse and two questions is what I posted Jari.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Originally Posted by David777
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Is this out of context? How do you interpret this one Jari?"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now my friend Jari what did you mean when you stated the
following answer to my questions?
"Could that mean those who are not yet saved need to endure?"
RJ
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The following verse and two questions is what I posted Jari.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Originally Posted by David777
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Is this out of context? How do you interpret this one Jari?"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now my friend Jari what did you mean when you stated the
following answer to my questions?
"Could that mean those who are not yet saved need to endure?"
Originally Posted by David777
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Other than having the Lord in us and, as a branch, we are bearing his fruit through us.... I trust you are not saying the above verse means that a Christian must keep doing his own works to maintain his salvation to the end?
Stickz
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Enlighten us, RJ, what does the above verse mean? Come on, you can't just keep showing up and telling us that we're wrong and not explaining how. And David777, please correct me if I am wrong, but "yes" RJ I believe that that is exactly what David is saying about that verse, and I agree with him. Give us your version of it, RJ.
Considering that the Greek word for the word 'endureth' here is hupomeno which seems to mean—to stay under ( behind ), i.e. remain; to undergo, i.e. bear ( trials ), have fortitude, persevere:—abide, endure, ( take ) patient ( -ly ), suffer, tarry behind.
I'm not real sure, RJ, how else this verse could possibly be interpretted. I guess that you could take a dispensational view here, but even if you were to do that you'd have to admit that the verse means that a Christian has to continue in their faith to be saved. So, I'm at a loss ...?
Dear RJ.
You replied with this remarkable comment.
"Other than having the Lord in us and, as a branch, we are bearing his fruit through us....
I trust you are not saying the above verse means that a Christian must keep doing
his own works to maintain his salvation to the end?"
In fact I asked you what the verse meant to you. Your answer still
is not correct.
You and I know that Jesus died to set us free from death. This
act of His is by Grace, a free gift, love in its purest form. We access
this redemption by faith. That is complete, signed and sealed.
Now that we are a new creation in Christ we are required to live a Godly life.
This is not works, this is conducting oneself properly
amongst others in gratitude for what Jesus accomplished. Paul
could not stress this enough in His letters. Paul called it the
doctrine of Godliness.
Now where did you get the idea of works from Matthew 10:22?
Also please have another shot at interpreting this passage.
You replied with this remarkable comment.
"Other than having the Lord in us and, as a branch, we are bearing his fruit through us....
I trust you are not saying the above verse means that a Christian must keep doing
his own works to maintain his salvation to the end?"
In fact I asked you what the verse meant to you. Your answer still
is not correct.
You and I know that Jesus died to set us free from death. This
act of His is by Grace, a free gift, love in its purest form. We access
this redemption by faith. That is complete, signed and sealed.
Now that we are a new creation in Christ we are required to live a Godly life.
This is not works, this is conducting oneself properly
amongst others in gratitude for what Jesus accomplished. Paul
could not stress this enough in His letters. Paul called it the
doctrine of Godliness.
Now where did you get the idea of works from Matthew 10:22?
Also please have another shot at interpreting this passage.
No, believers standing. remember pride goes before fall. And Jesus talked about Him being the vine tree and we the branches.
Reconcilation did happen when you first believed in Jesus and were born again.
Like it says in those verses we where before this alianated from God and His enemies (This is in past sense). But now reconciled. Then it says the idea is to present us holy and blameless in His sight and the only requirement for this is that we "continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel".
so I could ask you what practical value does Jesus sacrifice have for you today? Nothing I suppose. As you believe you need to do things right now and not sin. So Jesus dying for you merely got your "attention" and made you a believer but you don't believe in forgiveness of sins now that you believe?
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
I think this is something that's truly possibly only when born again and living in God's grace.
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RJ
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Hang in their Jari!
And dont let others classify you as a person "Who thinks they can sin all they want"!
I know you and I don't think for one minute that is true!
That is a common thread among those who strictly reject OSAS , they almost always say, that we say " we can sin all we want"...what an insult!
It is not that we do not look at our sin, we do! But, the whole point is that God said he doesn't look at it!
- They want to do works; we understand it is never our works but bearing the works of the one in us! The out come which is fruits.
- They want to please God by some performance standard of theirs; we want to please God too but by his performance standards through us!
- They say that we want to willfully sin; we say no we don't but, when we do the Holy Spirit is right their to convict us, we work on it and truly understand Romans 8:1.
- To some degree they still work under the Old Covenant, We know that we are entirely under the New Covenant and that means all of him and none of us.
- They continue to want to do something themselves to please God, we say that we can not do anything ourselves and still live fully under the New Covenant.
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