Pretribulation Rapture?

[GodB4Us]

Calling me a child, concerning age . Physically, maybe. Spiritually, i doubt it, mentally im always a child . Lol

Well, at least you have changed your tone to being humorous. As it was, talking down to any one as if they are a child will not win any points, FYI.

So let us get into requirements for heaven.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Are you filled with love, humility, compassion. If not, your are going no where.

What you had shared here is about discipleship, abiding in Him as His disciples to be fruitful. It is required in running that race by faith in Him for the high prize of our calling to be that vessel unto honor in His House.

Oh im sorry, you say Jesus is Lord. Ok Great. And He is. Right. Knowing who Jesus is , will not save you.

It is believing in the Lord Jesus Christ & that God has raised Him from the dead is how we are saved. Noticed Paul made no reference to the Church in Rome supposedly started by Peter?

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Why, because if knowing Jesus was all you needed, then the devil would still be there.

It is because we are still in this vile body of death is why we are always Spirit-filled and accountable to what we sow towards; the works of the flesh or the fruits of the Spirit which are by faith in Jesus Christ; Philippians 1:11

Oh im sorry, you say Jesus is in you. Oh ok, so open your arms for your brothers and sisters. Catholics Hindus Muslims Buddhist. Oh wait a minute aren't they your brothers and sisters and why not? Because they don't think like you do, what's that got to do with anything.

Hindus, Muslims, & Buddhists do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ & that God has raised Him from the dead, otherwise they would be known as Christians and not Hindus, Muslims, & Buddhists.

Catholics & other believers that believe in the Lord Jesus Christ & that God has raised Him from the dead are my brothers & sisters even though they may not believe they are saved as a result of believing in Him. They are simply laboring in unbelief in works of Catholicism that denies Him as their Savior that they are saved for believing in Him. Unless they repent & leave the Catholic Church, they will find out the hard way that it is because of their works that deny Him for why they are left behind as denied by Him, but because He still abides in them even for believing in His name is why they are still saved. They missed out on the Marriage Supper but they will be resurrected after the great tribulation.

Did not God create all of life all of mankind. If God created all of mankind then all of mankind or your brothers and sisters because he is the Father of all.

We are all related to Noah and his family as the only 8 survivors of the global flood, but we are only His family when we do the will of God.

Matthew 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

So Hindus, Muslims, and Buddhists are not our brothers & sisters, but we are called to love others for abiding in Him as His disciples. That also mean loving them enough to tell them the truth on how to be saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

Now you have a little bit of a stumbling block. How is it that they are capable of becoming your brothers and sisters. It's all in the scripture right in front of your face have you read it, do you even understand it?

"It is not listening to the law but keeping it that will make people holy in the sight of God"

" for instance pagans who never heard of the law but are led by reason to do what the law commands, may not actually possess the law, but they can be said to be the law. They can point to the substance of the law engraved on their hearts."

Until they believe in the Lord Jesus Christ & that God has raised Him from the dead, they are not saved; they do not have the Holy Spirit as in having that seal of adoption by how we can call God Father.

As it is , Jesus is the stumbling block to all religious men like the Jews, God's chosen people, and that includes other religious people God has not chosen like the Hindus, the Muslims, and the Buddhists.

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

 

[Bill]

Well, at least you have changed your tone to being humorous. As it was, talking down to any one as if they are a child will not win any points, FYI.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

What you had shared here is about discipleship, abiding in Him as His disciples to be fruitful. It is required in running that race by faith in Him for the high prize of our calling to be that vessel unto honor in His House.

It is believing in the Lord Jesus Christ & that God has raised Him from the dead is how we are saved. Noticed Paul made no reference to the Church in Rome supposedly started by Peter?

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

It is because we are still in this vile body of death is why we are always Spirit-filled and accountable to what we sow towards; the works of the flesh or the fruits of the Spirit which are by faith in Jesus Christ; Philippians 1:11

Hindus, Muslims, & Buddhists do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ & that God has raised Him from the dead, otherwise they would be known as Christians and not Hindus, Muslims, & Buddhists.

Catholics & other believers that believe in the Lord Jesus Christ & that God has raised Him from the dead are my brothers & sisters even though they may not believe they are saved as a result of believing in Him. They are simply laboring in unbelief in works of Catholicism that denies Him as their Savior that they are saved for believing in Him. Unless they repent & leave the Catholic Church, they will find out the hard way that it is because of their works that deny Him for why they are left behind as denied by Him, but because He still abides in them even for believing in His name is why they are still saved. They missed out on the Marriage Supper but they will be resurrected after the great tribulation.

We are all related to Noah and his family as the only 8 survivors of the global flood, but we are only His family when we do the will of God.

Matthew 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

So Hindus, Muslims, and Buddhists are not our brothers & sisters, but we are called to love others for abiding in Him as His disciples. That also mean loving them enough to tell them the truth on how to be saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

Until they believe in the Lord Jesus Christ & that God has raised Him from the dead, they are not saved; they do not have the Holy Spirit as in having that seal of adoption by how we can call God Father.

As it is , Jesus is the stumbling block to all religious men like the Jews, God's chosen people, and that includes other religious people God has not chosen like the Hindus, the Muslims, and the Buddhists.

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Until they believe in the Lord Jesus Christ & that God has raised Him from the dead, they are not saved; they do not have the Holy Spirit as in having that seal of adoption by how we can call God Father.

These are your words, not scripture. I only quoted scripture to you.

 

[GodB4Us]

Until they believe in the Lord Jesus Christ & that God has raised Him from the dead, they are not saved; they do not have the Holy Spirit as in having that seal of adoption by how we can call God Father.

These are your words, not scripture. I only quoted scripture to you.

No, you didn't quote any scripture.

Here is your post # 100 below.

"Calling me a child, concerning age . Physically, maybe. Spiritually, i doubt it, mentally im always a child . Lol


So let us get into requirements for heaven. Are you filled with love, humility, compassion. If not, your are going no where.

Oh im sorry, you say Jesus is Lord. Ok Great. And He is. Right. Knowing who Jesus is , will not save you.

Why, because if knowing Jesus was all you needed, then the devil would still be there.


Oh im sorry, you say Jesus is in you. Oh ok, so open your arms for your brothers and sisters. Catholics Hindus Muslims Buddhist. Oh wait a minute aren't they your brothers and sisters and why not? Because they don't think like you do, what's that got to do with anything.

Did not God create all of life all of mankind. If God created all of mankind then all of mankind or your brothers and sisters because he is the Father of all.

Now you have a little bit of a stumbling block. How is it that they are capable of becoming your brothers and sisters. It's all in the scripture right in front of your face have you read it, do you even understand it?

"It is not listening to the law but keeping it that will make people holy in the sight of God"

" for instance pagans who never heard of the law but are led by reason to do what the law commands, may not actually possess the law, but they can be said to be the law. They can point to the substance of the law engraved on their hearts."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Where did you quote scripture? All I see is sarcasm.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

I have faith in Jesus, not rapture, and especially not “left behind”. This term comes from Hollywood movie, not the Bible.

 

[B-A-C]

I have faith in Jesus, not rapture, and especially not “left behind”. This term comes from Hollywood movie, not the Bible.

The word rapture simply means to gather together or to gather up.

Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Mark13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

You can debate whether it's pre, mid or post. But you can't deny.. at some point Jesus is sending His angels to "gather up" the elect.

Now as far as people being left behind..

Matt 24:40; "Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.
Matt 24:41; "Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.
Matt 24:42; "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.

Luke 17:31; "On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one who is in the field must not turn back.
Luke 17:32; "Remember Lot's wife.
Luke 17:33; "Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.
Luke 17:34; "I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left.
Luke 17:35; "There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left.
Luke 17:36; ["Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left."]

It isn't just a Hollywood term, it IS in the Bible.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

It isn't just a Hollywood term, it IS in the Bible.

No, it’s NOT. If you really believe in this gathering up, which is true, then you would know that God’s people will heed His calling, they would gather up VOLUNTARILY and SPONTANEOUSLY. There’s no angel or Jesus himself snatching anybody away by surprise. Rather, calamity will befall by surprise like a blitzkrieg. Those who are left are the normies - or Laodiceans - who ignore the warning and CHOOSE to stay, like Lot’s two son-in-laws who thought he was joking (Gen. 19:14). And that’s the thesis of the second half of the Olivet Discourse. Jesus urged his disciples to discern the signs of time and BE PREPARED. Those who are “left” in Luke 17:34-36 seek their own lives, they’re still focusing on their own businesses and pretending that everything is normal, therefore they will lose it instead, as concluded in Luke 17:33.

 

[GodB4Us]

No, it’s NOT. If you really believe in this gathering up, which is true, then you would know that God’s people will heed His calling, they would gather up VOLUNTARILY and SPONTANEOUSLY. There’s no angel or Jesus himself snatching anybody away by surprise. Rather, calamity will befall by surprise like a blitzkrieg. Those who are left are the normies - or Laodiceans - who ignore the warning and CHOOSE to stay, like Lot’s two son-in-laws who thought he was joking (Gen. 19:14). And that’s the thesis of the second half of the Olivet Discourse. Jesus urged his disciples to discern the signs of time and BE PREPARED. Those who are “left” in Luke 17:34-36 seek their own lives, they’re still focusing on their own businesses and pretending that everything is normal, therefore they will lose it instead, as concluded in Luke 17:33.

Yet Jesus is warning saved believers only because He knows not every saved believers will heed His warning for why He is testifying to the consequences for not being ready.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Yet Jesus is warning saved believers only because He knows not every saved believers will heed His warning for why He is testifying to the consequences for not being ready.

Jesus was warning ALL of his congregation, both true believers and believers in name only. When these signs are showing, each one’s attitude shows whether they are true believers or not.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

The word rapture simply means to gather together or to gather up.

See, this bickering about "rapture" is a total waste of time, becuase everybody has a different definition of this word "rapture", therefore we're mumbling to ourselves and repeating a bunch of confusing talking points. The bottom line is that the gentile church will cease to exist before the Great Tribulation (2 Thess. 2:7, Rev. 3:10. Rev. 12:12), and there's only ONE second coming (Acts 1:11, Matt. 24:30, Matt. 26:64). Whoever preaches multiple comings or secret snatchings is a false prophet who's directing your attention to all the wrong places: "look, he's here! He's there!"

 

[Bill]

No, you didn't quote any scripture.

Here is your post # 100 below.

"Calling me a child, concerning age . Physically, maybe. Spiritually, i doubt it, mentally im always a child . Lol


So let us get into requirements for heaven. Are you filled with love, humility, compassion. If not, your are going no where.

Oh im sorry, you say Jesus is Lord. Ok Great. And He is. Right. Knowing who Jesus is , will not save you.

Why, because if knowing Jesus was all you needed, then the devil would still be there.


Oh im sorry, you say Jesus is in you. Oh ok, so open your arms for your brothers and sisters. Catholics Hindus Muslims Buddhist. Oh wait a minute aren't they your brothers and sisters and why not? Because they don't think like you do, what's that got to do with anything.

Did not God create all of life all of mankind. If God created all of mankind then all of mankind or your brothers and sisters because he is the Father of all.

Now you have a little bit of a stumbling block. How is it that they are capable of becoming your brothers and sisters. It's all in the scripture right in front of your face have you read it, do you even understand it?

"It is not listening to the law but keeping it that will make people holy in the sight of God"

" for instance pagans who never heard of the law but are led by reason to do what the law commands, may not actually possess the law, but they can be said to be the law. They can point to the substance of the law engraved on their hearts."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Where did you quote scripture? All I see is sarcasm.

Yet Jesus is warning saved believers only because He knows not every saved believers will heed His warning for why He is testifying to the consequences for not being ready.

You have to understand I get really tired of bickering with a guy that is so locked into himself that he can't see scripture even when it's presented to him.

The scripture tells us or Jesus tells us however you want to look at it not to judge others plan simple we don't judge others unless we want to be judged.

Now there's all sorts of scripture that back this up that anyone out there any person out there it doesn't matter if they're atheist it doesn't matter if they're Buddhist it doesn't matter if they're Hindu it just plainly doesn't matter that all mankind are the children of God. They just don't know it yet.

God created mankind. God is the father of mankind. That's all there is that God is the father of everyone. Certainly the Jews are the apple of God's eye that's scripture right there that the Jews are the apple of God's eye.

And those who believe in Jesus is Lord are the adopted Sons and Daughters of God. But the scripture also makes an exception for those who do not understand Jesus as the son of God the scripture tells us that for those who do not know the law the being scripture, the scripture States and I quote for those who do not know the law they will be judged by the law written in their heart.

This leaves it open to the pagans or those who are not Christians to actually become the children of God by the law that's written in their heart that is if they follow the law of God even though they do not know the law of God that if they follow the laws of God that they too are welcome in the Kingdom of Heaven.

In the scripture if you read What's called the Beatitudes blessed are the poor for they shall see the kingdom of God read through all the Beatitudes you have to understand that not one time does it say that you need to know who Jesus is but yet these are all promises that Jesus makes to mankind. And there is more more to that like laying your life down for another person you know there are many people out there that have given their lives for the sake of someone else they are not Christians yet they become Christian because of the love that's in their heart for other people.

Don't you ever wonder about what Jesus says when he's talking about the end and the judgment and he talks about those who come before the Lord saying that we cast out demons in your name we healed people in your name we did all these things in your name and the King says away from me I never knew you.

You see the scripture proves that you cannot cast out demons unless you know the Lord it's impossible to cast out a demon unless you know the Lord as Jesus States the devil will not cast itself out.

So when the last judgment comes and a person comes the Lord saying I cast demons out in your name he had to have known the Lord at that moment but there's something that takes place between that moment and the Judgment or God disowns that person

Judas is an excellent example of this. Judas who's name was written in heaven was disowned by God later when Jesus said it would have been better if he had never been born

Judas had salvation in his hands his name was written in heaven and he threw it away over his ideology and 30 pieces of silver.

The scripture I wrote previously were the last two paragraphs

 

[B-A-C]

The bottom line is that the gentile church will cease to exist before the Great Tribulation

Hmmm....

Rev 7:9; After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

So there is great multitude here... people from every race, not just Jews. They are wearing white robes, where did they come from?

Rev 7:13; Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
Rev 7:14; I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

before the Great Tribulation (2 Thess. 2:7, Rev. 3:10. Rev. 12:12),

Not a single one of those verses says that. But the church will be protected up to a point.

Rev 9:4; They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
Rev 9:5; And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man.

If you have the seal of God on your forehead, you will be guarded against some of the plagues. However you could still be beheaded.

Rev 20:4; Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Do you think non-Christians will be beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus? It would appear these are Christians being beheaded at this time.

When are the elect gathered up?

Matt 24:29; "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Mark 13:24; "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
Mark 13:25; AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:26; "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

.., "after" the great tribulation.

 

[GodB4Us]

Jesus was warning ALL of his congregation, both true believers and believers in name only. When these signs are showing, each one’s attitude shows whether they are true believers or not.

Did you know that He still dwells in former believers in spite of them denying Him for why they would be denied by Him per 2 Timothy 2:12-13?

2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

So even former believers and carnal believers are called to depart from iniquity so they too can be received by Him as vessels unto honor in His House per 2 Timothy 2:18-21 whereas those that fail to depart from iniquity, shall be left behind as vessels unto dishonor in His House for being disqualified as workers of iniquity to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven, but although left behind to die, they shall be resurrected after the great tribulation because they are still in His House.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

That means it is not a case of true believers and believers in name only, but a case of being His disciples from those saved believers that are not abiding in Him & His words thus not being His disciples. Then there is that not being willing to go when the Bridegroom comes because they love this world and this life rather than leave it behind regardless of how much they "served Him" in the ministry as His disciples. That is what it means of not counting the cost of discipleship.

But only God can reveal that to you; not your pastor nor me.

 

[B-A-C]

Dan 7:21; "I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
Rev 13:7; It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.

There is a lot of speculation about these verses. What do they mean? Are the saints overcome spiritually? Will they deny their faith?
Are they overcome physically, and just their bodies will be killed? I don't know. But either way... the saints will still be here when the beast is here.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

So there is great multitude here... people from every race, not just Jews. They are wearing white robes, where did they come from?

Take that with a grain of salt, 'cause that "great tribulation" is not necessarily referring to THE great tribulation at last. In some versions it's just tribulations, meaning all kinds of trials and tribulations throughout history. Don't you think that actually makes more sense? If that's just the "great tribulation" and that great multitude only consists of the end time generation who die as martyrs, then all the previous generations of the Church are not part of it, and they would have been dead for nothing.

Not a single one of those verses says that. But the church will be protected up to a point.

Nope, Israel will be protected, others will be gone. All God's believers will go to a safe harbor, aka the earth, and that's the gathering up. Those are probably just the 144,000, plus women, children and elders who are not numbered among them. The "saints" are referring to the other Israelites who finally believe and refuse to take the mark. The verses that says the Church will be removed are clearly stated in the verses I've listed, you just don't bother to read. And that "removal" is already taking place as so many churches are falling away from faith in Yeshua, would that be so hard to see that in near future all real bible teaching and believing churches are gone?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Did you know that He still dwells in former believers in spite of them denying Him for why they would be denied by Him per 2 Timothy 2:12-13?

Speaking of denial, why don't you just read about Peter and see what he had been through.

 

[B-A-C]

Take that with a grain of salt, 'cause that "great tribulation" is not necessarily referring to THE great tribulation at last. In some versions it's just tribulations,

Perhaps, but lets look at this in context here...

Matt 24:21; "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Matt 24:22; "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

It says this will be the greatest tribulation the world has ever seen. Since the beginning of the world up until that point, there will never be a greater tribulation.

Mark says the same thing.

Mark 13:19; "For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
Mark 13:20; "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

The greatest tribulation "since the beginning of the creation". There will never be a greater tribulation than this time frame.
The next verse in both passages.. says "for the sake of the elect". Why are the elect still here if the rapture already happened?
Now, some say the elect are just the Jews... well if that's the case the Gentile church will never be raptured, because only the elect are raptured.

Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other

I apologize for the capital letters, I did not capitalize them myself. They are capitalized in my Bible. ( NASB ) I just copied and pasted it the way it was.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

It says this will be the greatest tribulation the world has ever seen. Since the beginning of the world up until that point, there will never be a greater tribulation.

Sorry man, I believe that was talking about the siege of Jerusalem in 70AD, in Luke's version it specifically said 'when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies" (Luke 21:20), according to some historians that was a brief period when the local Roman armies suffered some loss from the revolt and retreated to their fortresses outside, waiting for reinforcement, therefore they were surrounding Jerusalem but in defense, and the Christians who remembered this teaching were able to escape into the mountains. This depends on what "abomination of desolation" was Jesus referring to, 'cause there're several in Daniel (9:27, 11:31, 12:11).

 

[GodB4Us]

You have to understand I get really tired of bickering with a guy that is so locked into himself that he can't see scripture even when it's presented to him.

Careful. Judge not les ye be judged.

The scripture tells us or Jesus tells us however you want to look at it not to judge others plan simple we don't judge others unless we want to be judged.

The problem here is you are not paying attention. Believers living in sin would also use this verse out of context and yet ignore the intent of what Jesus was saying that when correcting othes, do not be a hypocrite when you are still doing the same thing.

Matthew 7:1Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

So verse 5 is simply stating that hypocrites should stop sinning first before correcting others to stop sinning. So this is not about correcting no one at all, but don't be a hypocrite when you do it.

As it is Jesus did teach us to correct/judge others, especially when they have gone astray because Jesus would go after that lost sheep for why we should too..

Matthew 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Now for the Hindus, the Muslims, and the Buddhists and the Jews that do not believe in Jesus Christ, Jesus gave that judgment to share with others.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Now there's all sorts of scripture that back this up that anyone out there any person out there it doesn't matter if they're atheist it doesn't matter if they're Buddhist it doesn't matter if they're Hindu it just plainly doesn't matter that all mankind are the children of God. They just don't know it yet.

Until they believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God has raised Him from the dead, they are not saved yet. To imply otherwise is to take away their need for God to be their Saviour.

God created mankind. God is the father of mankind. That's all there is that God is the father of everyone. Certainly the Jews are the apple of God's eye that's scripture right there that the Jews are the apple of God's eye.

Scripture says otherwise.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his....
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

And those who believe in Jesus is Lord are the adopted Sons and Daughters of God. But the scripture also makes an exception for those who do not understand Jesus as the son of God the scripture tells us that for those who do not know the law the being scripture, the scripture States and I quote for those who do not know the law they will be judged by the law written in their heart.

Jesus gave this judgment below and it will not show deviation from it and so you are misunderstanding and misapplying the scripture you are referencing.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

This leaves it open to the pagans or those who are not Christians to actually become the children of God by the law that's written in their heart that is if they follow the law of God even though they do not know the law of God that if they follow the laws of God that they too are welcome in the Kingdom of Heaven.

It does not. What you are referring to is about God being no respecter of persons but you are overlooking verses 12 in how those without the law perish as well.

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Paul was rebuking the notion above that Jews were better than the Gentiles because the Jews had the law, but in that same Book of Romans, Paul went on to state the condition of all sinners.

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

In the scripture if you read What's called the Beatitudes blessed are the poor for they shall see the kingdom of God read through all the Beatitudes you have to understand that not one time does it say that you need to know who Jesus is but yet these are all promises that Jesus makes to mankind. And there is more more to that like laying your life down for another person you know there are many people out there that have given their lives for the sake of someone else they are not Christians yet they become Christian because of the love that's in their heart for other people.

In the same Beatitudes, Jesus testified that He came to fulfill the law which other scripture testify that He is to give His life as a ransom for sin which the penalty for sin is death He paid for it for all those that believe in Him. And believing in Him is how you receive the righteousness of God by faith in Jesus Christ.

If there were other ways for sinners to get into Heaven, don't you think Jesus would not go through with it when He was praying in the Garden of Gethsemane that the cup be removed from Him if what you say is true? You make God and Jesus look stupid and vain and I know God the Father & Jesus are not stupid nor vain..

Don't you ever wonder about what Jesus says when he's talking about the end and the judgment and he talks about those who come before the Lord saying that we cast out demons in your name we healed people in your name we did all these things in your name and the King says away from me I never knew you.

You see the scripture proves that you cannot cast out demons unless you know the Lord it's impossible to cast out a demon unless you know the Lord as Jesus States the devil will not cast itself out.

You better beware of this warning, brother.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The iniquity is broadening the way to come to God the Father by as it will be ecumenical in nature in gathering.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

As the Vatican is being ecumenical with world's religions outside the church, so is the apostasy that is in the world that has been coming within the churches where the focus is on the movement of the spirit assuming it to be the Holy Spirit.

So when the last judgment comes and a person comes the Lord saying I cast demons out in your name he had to have known the Lord at that moment but there's something that takes place between that moment and the Judgment or God disowns that person

Ernest Angeley's Healing Crusade would announce the falling of the Holy Spirit on already saved believers, causing them to fall backwards in receiving miracles such as a healing or a casting out of devils. Jesus points out this as an iniquity further from Matthew 7:21-23 by reading on how these houses as in believers fall as a result.

Matthew 7: 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

So if you have not fallen backwards already, you probably will in slain in the spirit phenomena and holy laughter movement or you had observed it when believers seek another baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues which because it comes without interpretation, they assume it is for private use when it is not the real God's gift of tongues at all but the pagan's supernatural tongue which is gibberish nonsense as found in the world before Pentecost.

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

So just because you are serving Him as you are casting out devils as you claim, that does not give you permission to be workers of iniquity by saying there are other ways for sinners to be saved thus denying sharing the gospel with them.

Judas is an excellent example of this. Judas who's name was written in heaven was disowned by God later when Jesus said it would have been better if he had never been born

Judas had salvation in his hands his name was written in heaven and he threw it away over his ideology and 30 pieces of silver.

The scripture I wrote previously were the last two paragraphs

His name was not written in the Book of Life for he was never saved.

None of those He has saved after His ascension can He lose, but not everyone will be found abiding in Him for why they will be cast out from attending the Marriage Supper in Heaven but NOT cast out of His kingdom of Heaven as the foolish virgins that are of the kingdom of heaven with the wise & prudent virgins, but only the wise & prudent virgins were ready to go as always Spirit-filled since salvation while the foolish were out to the market being filled.

Matthew 25:1-13 KJV The parable is at this link to Bible Gateway in case you are interested.

 

[B-A-C]

Sorry man, I believe that was talking about the siege of Jerusalem in 70AD, in Luke's version it specifically said 'when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies"

I have heard that theory before. Perhaps it could be. But consider the entire population of Jerusalem was 200,000 in 70ad. (that's being generous).
How many Jews were killed in World War II? Indeed, how many people of all races were killed in World War II? Which would you say is a greater tribulation?

Now I myself don't believe World War II was the great tribulation, but I imagine many people during that time thought so.

 

[Curtis]

The Lord has always wanted all of Israel to be saved and they will after all the "gentiles" have come in.

Rom 11:25 There is a secret truth, my friends, which I want you to know, for it will keep you from thinking how wise you are. It is that the stubbornness of the people of Israel is not permanent, but will last only until the complete number of Gentiles comes to God.

Rom 11:26 And this is how all Israel will be saved. As the scripture says, "The Savior will come from Zion and remove all wickedness from the descendants of Jacob.

God's elect during the great tribulation is the Jews (Israel) The gentile church will already be gone.