Pretribulation Rapture?

[Bill]

And yet you had said in another thread that water baptism had nothing to do with obtaining salvation, did you not? Or did I misunderstood you?

I had agreed with you giving scriptures and pointed that the Catholic Catechism says otherwise that water baptism is necessary for salvation, remember?

From the thread of "Demonic Attack". Page 4 Post # 70


The real God's gift of tongues is for speaking unto the people in their native tongue that the one speaking does not know 1 Corinthians 14:20-21 That is why His gift of tongues will come with interpretation in the assembly 1 Corinthians 12:7-12 If any one get a supernatural tongue that does not come with interpretation because it is gibberish nonsense, that is not the real God's gift of tongues, but the pagan tongue as found in the world and the occult. Shun that tongue.

I agree because the Gentiles heard the word ( and obviously believed the word ) and received the Holy Ghost before confessing Him, before coming forward, and way before water baptism. Acts 10:43-48 That is why Paul said he was not sent to water baptize but preach the gospel because it pleases God to save those who believe the preaching of the cross

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

But I should point out that the Catholic Catechism does believe water baptism is necessary for salvation as being one of the sacraments that Catholics are to do.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.59 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.60 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.61 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.

Water baptism does not do anything at all when it is the baptism with the Holy Ghost that is how a believer is baptized into one body. That is how being born again of the Spirit makes one become a son of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. ~~~~ end of reference to post # 70

So why are you hyping about the water baptism of John the Baptist's which is the water baptism of repentance for the remission of sins for how followers are known as disciples of John the Baptist's??

That is not what the water baptism in Jesus Christ's name is for because the remission of sins is obtained by believing in Jesus Christ and thus baptized with the Holy Ghost by Jesus Christ at their salvation.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. KJV

You are a little confused with the baptisms and thier perpuse .

The Water baptism comes from the Holy Spirit drawing us to Jesus, and we acknowledging Jesus as Lord. Our previous wine skin is replaced with a new wine skin, our old sins, including the sin of adam are washed away. Now being a new son or daughter of the Most High are called to turn this fire in us into a blazing beacon.

We now learn to grow up in the Lord. Just as the Apostles went from baby Christians to maturity. And at this point are drawn to recieve the authority of the Holy Spirit.

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit , with power and authority.

In both cases , The Water baptism and the Baptism of Fire, the Spirit is involved. " it is by one Spirit we are baptised" but 2 Baptisms. One of Water and one of Fire. There is still a third Baptism, but this isnt preached. This Baptism comes when we die. It is the Baptism of our soul into heaven.

 

[PloughBoy]

Finally , you answered my question . So you believe that the pre trib rapture will come just before the mark of the beast .

So now When the Mark of the beast takes place, and you dont go on the joy ride to heaven , what then.

And by the way , what about your spouse, if you are married. What will you do if you see she is left behind . Are you going to say, see you next time sucka . Lol or will you have the guts to ask the Lord, i will stay to help my wife.

Will you leave if some of your children are stuck behind , what about infants, who are innocent yet have not recieved Jesus as Lord and Savior. I guess they are not good enough for the escape plan

The whole Rapture Theory is so selfish I can't even understand how the preachers ever keep pushing it

That is why I say read your own bible as a whole, Men women and children died Violent and horrible deaths that we could be able to read it. The church killed thousands of christians to keep them from reading it! And we are still paying attention to "Bible Theories" coming from men and women! And now we finally got the BOOK and can read. " and we are paying attention to "The Bible Theories of men and women" and partial Truths"

concerning your quote:
"And by the way , what about your spouse, if you are married. What will you do if you see she is left behind . Are you going to say, see you next time sucka . Lol or will you have the guts to ask the Lord, i will stay to help my wife."

"GOD's" will be done"

Now Dr. Sproul does not believe in "Pre-Tribulation". But I do!

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

assuming too little from america is as bad as assuming too much, dont be like the pharisees who pre judge anyone who speaks slightly different, be skeptical, thats good, but also be open to being wrong about some things

America will provide the money, military and technology for the Antichrist, the kind of power that enables him to make new lives, aka image of the beast through genetic engineering, to rain fire from heaven through bombing or other kinds of weapon, to enforce a global digital currency, all from Uncle Sam.

 

[GodB4Us]

You are a little confused with the baptisms and thier perpuse .

The Water baptism comes from the Holy Spirit drawing us to Jesus, and we acknowledging Jesus as Lord.

Neither water baptism nor the Holy Spirit is given credit for drawing us unto the Son to believe in Him to be saved. The credit goes to the Father.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Our previous wine skin is replaced with a new wine skin, our old sins, including the sin of adam are washed away. Now being a new son or daughter of the Most High are called to turn this fire in us into a blazing beacon.

Water baptism has nothing to do with it but the baptism with the Holy Ghost does as far as the washing goes.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

We now learn to grow up in the Lord. Just as the Apostles went from baby Christians to maturity. And at this point are drawn to recieve the authority of the Holy Spirit.

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit , with power and authority.

Are you separating the born again of the Spirit from the baptism of the Holy Ghost as if this happens later in life of a saved believer when he or she reaches maturity? If so, this scripture below refutes that since we had received power since salvation and it is the authority of the Word of God that babes in Christ as well as the mature one can correct others by.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

In both cases , The Water baptism and the Baptism of Fire, the Spirit is involved. " it is by one Spirit we are baptised" but 2 Baptisms. One of Water and one of Fire. There is still a third Baptism, but this isnt preached. This Baptism comes when we die. It is the Baptism of our soul into heaven.

The third baptism isn't preached because it is true.

Although there is water baptism and baptism with the Holy Ghost, the only one that counts is the one and only baptism with the Holy Ghost for believing in Jesus Christ since Gentiles believers had believed in him and had received the holy Ghost way before water baptism in Acts 10:43-48

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

I do not know where you got your teachings from but scripture opposes what you are posting here. It would be best to discern with Jesus Christ everything you had learned in the scripture as kept in the KJV so as to abide in Him in truth.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth....

26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Although there is water baptism and baptism with the Holy Ghost, the only one that counts is the one and only baptism with the Holy Ghost for believing in Jesus Christ since Gentiles believers had believed in him and had received the holy Ghost way before water baptism in Acts 10:43-48

You know, Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost are the same third person of the trinity, right? That "Holy Ghost" is just a bad translation, if not THE worst one, of Ruach HaKodesh?

 

[GodB4Us]

You know, Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost are the same third person of the trinity, right? That "Holy Ghost" is just a bad translation, if not THE worst one, of Ruach HaKodesh?

Ghost & spirit means the same thing being derived from the Greek word "pneuma" but how it is used in the context of the message defines what that Greek word pneuma is. It can refer to a mental disposition or a vital principle, or a demon, or a ghost, or an angel, or even the very Person of the Holy Spirit aka Holy Ghost. So pneuma can't mean the same thing all the time , otherwise we'd be insulting the Holy Ghost in scripture when translating demon for Him or Him for demon.

And some modern Bibles have translated pneuma as referring to the Person of the Holy Spirit when scripture is referring to a mental disposition or a vital principle in John 6:63 & 2 Corinthians 3:6 whereas the KJV and a few modern versions have kept the spirit without capitalizing the " s " as opposed to many modern Bible versions that did capitalize spirit thus referring to the Person of the Holy Spirit when that scripture is not.

As it is, both Holy Ghost & Holy Spirit has been used in scripture in the KJV and therefore there is no mistaking the Third Person of the Triune God by either one of them.

 

[B-A-C]

that Greek word pneuma is. It can refer to a mental disposition or a vital principle, or a demon, or a ghost, or an angel,

It would be interesting to know of any scripture that does this.
Especially where it is translated as angel or demon.

 

[GodB4Us]

It would be interesting to know of any scripture that does this.
Especially where it is translated as angel or demon.

For mental disposition or vital principle, one may see John 6:63 & 2 Corinthians 3:6 for those examples for why it is definitely not referring to the Person of the Holy Spirit.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Matthew 5:35:3 Blessed [are] the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. pneuma referring to the spirit of the man.

Matthew 26:41Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak. pneuma referring to the spirit of the man

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. pneuma referring to the ghost of Jesus

The Greek word "pneumata" is plural of pneuma FYI If pneumata is used for plural of devils and unclean spirits, then pneuma can be applied to the devil in the singular as well as to an unclean spirit even though there is another Greek word for devil in the singular.

Matthew 8:16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick: pneumata referring to spirits that are devils

Matthew 10:1And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. pneumata referring to unclean spirits

Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? pneumata is referring to the angels in the previous verse.

Acts 23:9 And there arose a great cry: and the scribes that were of the Pharisees' part arose, and strove, saying, We find no evil in this man but if a spirit or an angel hath spoken to him, let us not fight against God. pneuma is referring to the same angel

These are just a few examples for why pneuma is not always referring to the Person of the Holy Ghost or the Holy Spirit if you prefer, although referring to the same Being. It all depends on how it is used in the verse.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Ghost & spirit means the same thing being derived from the Greek word "pneuma" but how it is used in the context of the message defines what that Greek word pneuma is. It can refer to a mental disposition or a vital principle, or a demon, or a ghost, or an angel, or even the very Person of the Holy Spirit aka Holy Ghost. So pneuma can't mean the same thing all the time , otherwise we'd be insulting the Holy Ghost in scripture when translating demon for Him or Him for demon.

And some modern Bibles have translated pneuma as referring to the Person of the Holy Spirit when scripture is referring to a mental disposition or a vital principle in John 6:63 & 2 Corinthians 3:6 whereas the KJV and a few modern versions have kept the spirit without capitalizing the " s " as opposed to many modern Bible versions that did capitalize spirit thus referring to the Person of the Holy Spirit when that scripture is not.

As it is, both Holy Ghost & Holy Spirit has been used in scripture in the KJV and therefore there is no mistaking the Third Person of the Triune God by either one of them.

Both ruach in Hebrew and pneuma in Greek could mean either wind, breath or spirit, just any movement of air. "Pneuma" is the root word of "pneumatic" and "pneumonia" in English. So yes, it could be referring to any kind of "pneumatic" movement, depending on the context, but NO, it's not a ghost. Ghost exclusively means the phantom of a dead man hanging around, and the reason of them hanging around is that they have some unfinished business that must be done before they can depart to the underworld. This is not a modern definition, though, when Thomas saw the resurrected Jesus, he thought he was seeing what? A ghost! Therefore the way I see it, the translation of Holy Ghost is an insult, because "ghost" is the opposite of "spirit" - that gives LIFE.

 

[Bill]

I finally figured out what all the pre-tribulation Rapture people are all about their true name. They are the 'me first' crowd. It's All About Me, me, me. There are no you, there is no Us's.

It's kind of like the Titanic sinking and everyone goes for the raft the heck with you I'm on the raft push that guy overboard I'm on the raft I'm more important than you are.

And then you find scripture to justify your thinking. Exactly the same way the devil thinks

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I finally figured out what all the pre-tribulation Rapture people are all about their true name. They are the 'me first' crowd. It's All About Me, me, me. There are no you, there is no Us's.

It's kind of like the Titanic sinking and everyone goes for the raft the heck with you I'm on the raft push that guy overboard I'm on the raft I'm more important than you are.

And then you find scripture to justify your thinking. Exactly the same way the devil thinks

To be fair, there's surely gonna be pre-trib apostasy (2 Thess. 2:3, 1 John 1:18-19) and pre-trib removal (2 Thess. 2:7, Rev. 3:10), those are definitely sound teaching, and you can see things are going in that direction if you've been paying attention. The problem is that you can't slip UNholywood's "Left Behind" version into it. That's deception, a false hope for cowards.

 

[GodB4Us]

Both ruach in Hebrew and pneuma in Greek could mean either wind, breath or spirit, just any movement of air. "Pneuma" is the root word of "pneumatic" and "pneumonia" in English. So yes, it could be referring to any kind of "pneumatic" movement, depending on the context, but NO, it's not a ghost. Ghost exclusively means the phantom of a dead man hanging around, and the reason of them hanging around is that they have some unfinished business that must be done before they can depart to the underworld. This is not a modern definition, though, when Thomas saw the resurrected Jesus, he thought he was seeing what? A ghost! Therefore the way I see it, the translation of Holy Ghost is an insult, because "ghost" is the opposite of "spirit" - that gives LIFE.

Jesus is the bread of life that gives life to the world John 6:30-36 Scriptures are supposed to testify of Jesus so seekers go to Him for life John 5:39-40

Romans 8:2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death....
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Scripture says the Spirit is life therefore when Jesus Christ baptizes us with the Spirit, He is giving us eternal life with God. So basically Jesus Christ gives life for why John 6:63 & 2 Corinthians 3:6 should remain small " s " in spirit as it is inferring a mental disposition or a vital principle rather than the Holy Spirit.

Ghost may mean the phantom of a person but so does spirit since ghost & spirit both can be derived from pneuma. Therefore there is no insult to the Holy Spirit when also referring to Him as the Holy Ghost.

It may be an insult to you, but there is no insult intended to the Holy Spirit that can be addressed also as the Holy Ghost.

 

[Bill]

To be fair, there's surely gonna be pre-trib apostasy (2 Thess. 2:3, 1 John 1:18-19) and pre-trib removal (2 Thess. 2:7, Rev. 3:10), those are definitely sound teaching, and you can see things are going in that direction if you've been paying attention. The problem is that you can't slip UNholywood's "Left Behind" version into it. That's deception, a false hope for cowards.

When God judge the world the last time it's not like he took Noah to the great beyond up in Paradise.

Satan's deceptions are huge and they are causing many to fall in falter in their own faith even now.

There are a few teachings that have actually led up to the scenario of the pre-tribulation rapture causing many to believe that everybody is exemplary in their behavior or in the fact that they are completely sinless only because they claim to be Christian.

And the excuses that are given by many Christians and denominations to bolster their stance when all you have to do is look at the apostles themselves. And I am talking about Peter who sinned by denying Christ," I do not know the man. "

Peter the Apostle of Jesus the very one that God the Father gave the knowledge to that Jesus was the Messiah. And that Jesus revealed to his Apostles that he was the Messiah the Son of God. To which they all believed. And yet even after that even after they instituted basically Christianity at that moment believing that Jesus was the son of God. Even after that Peter sins.

Peter denied Jesus three times in public. And when it's revealed to him by the rooster crowing he becomes ashamed of himself and repents through his tears and remorse.

Just because Jesus dies on the cross it does not stop us from sinning. And we still have to repent of our sins.

Anyone that experiences any kind of Deliverance type of ministry can tell you that even when a Christian has a possession problem nothing can be done until that person has found forgiveness from God.

No I'm telling you guys all this stuff because many of you feel that you are exemplary as Christians just because you're Christian when the truth is the Christians tend to be the biggest Hypocrites in the world. Certainly not all but the vast majority definitely are.

Out of one side of your mouth you say I'm a Christian I love God I love my neighbor as myself yet on the other side of the mouth comes out Catholics are going to hell everybody else is going to hell except for me or except for my kind. My question to those Christians that feel that way what kind is your kind because your kind is not my kind.

My kind of Christian is the one who will take the other person's sin upon themselves and say Lord forgive that person of all his sin let me take it that I may bear it for him.

And you hypocrites who say Jesus is the only one that can take the sin of the world. Yet Jesus is also the one who states come and follow me be holy for I am Holy.

Being Christlike means taking up the cross and taking on sins of others and being willing to do whatever is necessary for the sake of the other person for that person's salvation

 

[GodB4Us]

To be fair, there's surely gonna be pre-trib apostasy (2 Thess. 2:3, 1 John 1:18-19) and pre-trib removal (2 Thess. 2:7, Rev. 3:10), those are definitely sound teaching, and you can see things are going in that direction if you've been paying attention. The problem is that you can't slip UNholywood's "Left Behind" version into it. That's deception, a false hope for cowards.

I have heard of this teaching that the bad guys are going to be removed but that is because of the changed message in some modern Bibles in Luke 17:37.

You like going to the Greek, right? The Greek word "sunago" has it as a reception with hospitality and "aetos" is wing like flight. I really believe the KJV is closest to the truth in English but it should be translated better. The way modern Bibles changed eagles to vultures & body to corpse is inconsistent with what Jesus is saying in Luke 17:26-37 since there is a leaving required in order to survive what is coming on the earth which is destruction and afterwards the great tribulation.

No saint going through the great tribulation, will be tempted to go back and get something out of their home to take with him if Jesus is coming to earth, if there is no actual leaving the earth per His warning about Lot's wife below.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

You cannot have a nice reception on earth when destruction and the great tribulation as a result is coming on the earth.

 

[GodB4Us]

When God judge the world the last time it's not like he took Noah to the great beyond up in Paradise.

Yet God did save them from the destruction on the whole earth.

Just as Jesus warned of the coming destruction on earth for why He referred to Lot's wife not to value anything on earth so as to be ready to leave it behind on earth.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

You cannot have a nice reception on earth when destruction and the great tribulation as a result is coming on the earth.

Because of the changed message in some modern Bibles in Luke 17:37 the Greek word "sunago" has it as a reception with hospitality whereas the English has it as "gathered together" meaning Christ will be with them and "aetos" is wing like flight. I really believe the KJV is closest to the truth in English but it should be translated better. The way modern Bibles changed eagles to vultures & body to corpse is inconsistent with what Jesus is saying in Luke 17:26-37 since there is a leaving required in order to survive what is coming on the earth which is destruction and afterwards the great tribulation.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Ghost may mean the phantom of a person but so does spirit since ghost & spirit both can be derived from pneuma. Therefore there is no insult to the Holy Spirit when also referring to Him as the Holy Ghost.

Nope, ghost is for the dead, spirit is for the living. No dead corpse has any spirit, and no living bring is a ghost. At least it’s inconsistent when “spirit” is used in most other places such as Eph. 6:17, the sword of the spirit, while somehow, only in the third person of the trinity is it translated into “ghost”. That causes confusion for those who don’t know that it’s the same “pneuma”. You think it’s normal only because it’s in the KJV and it has become the norm.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I have heard of this teaching that the bad guys are going to be removed but that is because of the changed message in some modern Bibles in Luke 17:37.

Who says that the bad guys are going to be removed? I’m talking about 2 Thess. 2:7, what does that have anything to do with Luke 17:37? What is to be removed is the restraining power, first, our conscience, then the family and the church, then the government as the last line of defense. These are the institutions ordained and empowered by God to punish evil. But in the end, these forces will cease to function, they will be taken away so that the Antichrist can rise. Therefore nationalism and local law enforcement are hated and targeted by Satan, because they stand in the way as the restrainer.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

When God judge the world the last time it's not like he took Noah to the great beyond up in Paradise.

Satan's deceptions are huge and they are causing many to fall in falter in their own faith even now.

There are a few teachings that have actually led up to the scenario of the pre-tribulation rapture causing many to believe that everybody is exemplary in their behavior or in the fact that they are completely sinless only because they claim to be Christian.

And the excuses that are given by many Christians and denominations to bolster their stance when all you have to do is look at the apostles themselves. And I am talking about Peter who sinned by denying Christ," I do not know the man. "

Peter the Apostle of Jesus the very one that God the Father gave the knowledge to that Jesus was the Messiah. And that Jesus revealed to his Apostles that he was the Messiah the Son of God. To which they all believed. And yet even after that even after they instituted basically Christianity at that moment believing that Jesus was the son of God. Even after that Peter sins.

Peter denied Jesus three times in public. And when it's revealed to him by the rooster crowing he becomes ashamed of himself and repents through his tears and remorse.

Just because Jesus dies on the cross it does not stop us from sinning. And we still have to repent of our sins.

Anyone that experiences any kind of Deliverance type of ministry can tell you that even when a Christian has a possession problem nothing can be done until that person has found forgiveness from God.

No I'm telling you guys all this stuff because many of you feel that you are exemplary as Christians just because you're Christian when the truth is the Christians tend to be the biggest Hypocrites in the world. Certainly not all but the vast majority definitely are.

Out of one side of your mouth you say I'm a Christian I love God I love my neighbor as myself yet on the other side of the mouth comes out Catholics are going to hell everybody else is going to hell except for me or except for my kind. My question to those Christians that feel that way what kind is your kind because your kind is not my kind.

My kind of Christian is the one who will take the other person's sin upon themselves and say Lord forgive that person of all his sin let me take it that I may bear it for him.

And you hypocrites who say Jesus is the only one that can take the sin of the world. Yet Jesus is also the one who states come and follow me be holy for I am Holy.

Being Christlike means taking up the cross and taking on sins of others and being willing to do whatever is necessary for the sake of the other person for that person's salvation

Well said. “For everyone to whom much is given, from him much is required,” Luke 12:48. That’s the origin of “great power comes with great responsibility.” Ignorantly sin can be forgiven, as Jesus said on the cross, however knowing sin cannot, that’s why he was being extra harsh on the Pharisees, the teachers of the law, for their hypocrisy.

 

[GodB4Us]

Nope, ghost is for the dead, spirit is for the living. No dead corpse has any spirit, and no living bring is a ghost. At least it’s inconsistent when “spirit” is used in most other places such as Eph. 6:17, the sword of the spirit, while somehow, only in the third person of the trinity is it translated into “ghost”. That causes confusion for those who don’t know that it’s the same “pneuma”. You think it’s normal only because it’s in the KJV and it has become the norm.

No dead corpse has any spirit or ghost since it is an empty shell. Therefore a living being has a spirit or a ghost.

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. <---------pneuma referring to the ghost or spirit of Jesus that was given up from the body.

You may prefer the Holy Spirit and be prejudicial towards the use of Holy Ghost, but the Bible does not condemn its use in referring to the Holy Spirit as also the Holy Ghost.

I do not believe the KJV is the perfect Bible since Luke 17:37 should have been translated better in English in how those taken are gathered together with Christ as received with hospitality by wing like flight.

Even Revelation 3:5 failed to translate into English the double negative about Jesus would never remove any one's name form the Book of Life thus losing nothing of all the Father has given Him John 6:39.

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But for the subject at hand, pneuma has been used for the 7 Spirits of the Churches as addressed in Revelation and yet in this instant, should not be capitalized when those 7 spirits are 7 angels and scripture even said so.

With it capitalized, in Revelation 1:4 below, one might think there are 7 Holy Spirits BUT when reading in context, is referring to seven angels instead, thus an example of how pneuma can refer to a singular angel.

Revelation 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Revelation 1:20The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Revelation 2:1Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

Revelation 2:8And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Revelation 2:12And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

Revelation 3:1And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Revelation 3:7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

Revelation 3:14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

I believe the correction in the KJV is warranted by not capitalizing spirit in Revelation 1:4 since it is not referring to the Holy Spirit but to angels.

Since spirit was not capitalized when it did refer to the Holy Spirit in original scripture, discernment with Him is needed when reading His words in English.

 

[GodB4Us]

Who says that the bad guys are going to be removed? I’m talking about 2 Thess. 2:7, what does that have anything to do with Luke 17:37? What is to be removed is the restraining power, first, our conscience, then the family and the church, then the government as the last line of defense. These are the institutions ordained and empowered by God to punish evil. But in the end, these forces will cease to function, they will be taken away so that the Antichrist can rise. Therefore nationalism and local law enforcement are hated and targeted by Satan, because they stand in the way as the restrainer.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 is referring to the work of iniquity that was causing the falling away from the faith back in Paul's days that was prophesied to happen in droves in the latter days before He comes as the Bridegroom to judge His House first.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 testifies that the restraining power will be removed when believers believe the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit by a sign at salvation Matthew 12:38-40 or apart from salvation thus preaching another gospel to receive 2 Corinthians 11:3-4

Think of new age methodology or the occult of receiving spirits. God will permit that strong delusion to occur if believers believe that spirit coming over them is of God. That phenomenon will be their gospel rather than preaching the cross.

Paul did bother to expose the lie by reminding believers of the tradition taught of us for when we had received the sanctification of the Spirit & the belief of the truth which was at the calling of the gospel and no other time. 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15

Do click on the link below to go to Bible Gateway and see the difference between the KJV & the NLT for why I rely on the KJV since they really do not read as the same to me.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-17 KJV VS NLT